"You're not Druid/Chrono? Bye bye then..."

[Theros.1390]

> @"Malediktus.9250" said:

>

> I think having 100% boon uptimes like currently possible is bad for the game. It should be almost impossible (= only with tremendous sacrifices in other places) to keep up 100% fury, 25 might, alacrity and quickness at the same time. You should have to make choices and use the boons when they would be most impactful.

 

Give that man a cookie, please.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

> @"kasoki.5180" said:

> ^ I'm pretty sure FB with concentration can keep perma quickness. Considering recent changes to herald, I am almost certain guardian is getting alacrity in near future

>

> And almost everything that was said in this topic leads to the problem of single class being able to give out two most important boons in the meta (quickness+alacrity). You can call it whatever you want, Chrono being OP, other classes being trash. It's same in the end.

>

> You are just watering down the issue.

 

In 5 man party firebrand can keep 100 quickness duration but it can reliably be done only in fights without lot of movement (very position dependant)

But in raids there is a problem. In theory 1 firebrand give enough quickness for himself and another 4 players. This looks like enough but sadly mantras (main source of quickness) dont care about subsquads right now. That mean that 1 player might get quickness from both FBs and another might be without quickness. If you position yourself perfectly this will not happen but in pug raids or in fights where you have to move it is very unreliable

[Sephylon.4938]

what if it (fb mantra) hit 10 along with rene f2/ventari tablet? That or move alac to glint's elite facet, increase it's energy drain, and prot to kalla

[nsleep.7839]

Just one thing here about tanking that appeared twice and is terribly wrong, no class is better at tanking than Chrono. The end. This isn't even a discussion. The reason why is that the Chrono has the best defensive options while standing perfectly still which is ideal to maximize the efficiency of everything: dps, healing and boon sharing.

 

While some professions are more durable, or sustain more, or have more defensive options, they cannot keep the boss as still as a Chrono thus they are objectively worse than the Chrono at this role, between sword 2, shield 4, Aegis and Stability generation, signet distortion and shatter distortion, the Chrono never needs to move outside of when a mechanic demands you to reposition the boss.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

> @"nsleep.7839" said:

> Just one thing here about tanking that appeared twice and is terribly wrong, no class is better at tanking than Chrono. The end. This isn't even a discussion. The reason why is that the Chrono has the best defensive options while standing perfectly still which is ideal to maximize the efficiency of everything: dps, healing and boon sharing.

>

> While some professions are more durable, or sustain more, or have more defensive options, they cannot keep the boss as still as a Chrono thus they are objectively worse than the Chrono at this role, between sword 2, shield 4, Aegis and Stability generation, signet distortion and shatter distortion, the Chrono never needs to move outside of when a mechanic demands you to reposition the boss.

 

Can you make a build that is better at tanking then chrono? Yes.

Which class loses the least when tanking? Chrono

This is the reason

[segman.3560]

> @"nsleep.7839" said:

> Just one thing here about tanking that appeared twice and is terribly wrong, no class is better at tanking than Chrono. The end. This isn't even a discussion. The reason why is that the Chrono has the best defensive options while standing perfectly still which is ideal to maximize the efficiency of everything: dps, healing and boon sharing.

>

> While some professions are more durable, or sustain more, or have more defensive options, they cannot keep the boss as still as a Chrono thus they are objectively worse than the Chrono at this role, between sword 2, shield 4, Aegis and Stability generation, signet distortion and shatter distortion, the Chrono never needs to move outside of when a mechanic demands you to reposition the boss.

 

Tanking in gw2 is a mistake. Toughness tanking is even bigger mistake.

[Amineo.8951]

> @"segman.3560" said:

> > @"nsleep.7839" said:

> > Just one thing here about tanking that appeared twice and is terribly wrong, no class is better at tanking than Chrono. The end. This isn't even a discussion. The reason why is that the Chrono has the best defensive options while standing perfectly still which is ideal to maximize the efficiency of everything: dps, healing and boon sharing.

> >

> > While some professions are more durable, or sustain more, or have more defensive options, they cannot keep the boss as still as a Chrono thus they are objectively worse than the Chrono at this role, between sword 2, shield 4, Aegis and Stability generation, signet distortion and shatter distortion, the Chrono never needs to move outside of when a mechanic demands you to reposition the boss.

>

> Tanking in gw2 is a mistake. Toughness tanking is even bigger mistake.

 

Raids were a mistake in a game that removed the Trinity aspects, period, especially when the raid designers are pushing it even if they don't want to.

[yann.1946]

> @"Amineo.8951" said:

> > @"segman.3560" said:

> > > @"nsleep.7839" said:

> > > Just one thing here about tanking that appeared twice and is terribly wrong, no class is better at tanking than Chrono. The end. This isn't even a discussion. The reason why is that the Chrono has the best defensive options while standing perfectly still which is ideal to maximize the efficiency of everything: dps, healing and boon sharing.

> > >

> > > While some professions are more durable, or sustain more, or have more defensive options, they cannot keep the boss as still as a Chrono thus they are objectively worse than the Chrono at this role, between sword 2, shield 4, Aegis and Stability generation, signet distortion and shatter distortion, the Chrono never needs to move outside of when a mechanic demands you to reposition the boss.

> >

> > Tanking in gw2 is a mistake. Toughness tanking is even bigger mistake.

>

> Raids were a mistake in a game that removed the Trinity aspects, period, especially when the raid designers are pushing it even if they don't want to.

 

I don't really agree. Matthias is a good raidboss for example where you don't really use a tank (and so in essence no trinity)

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

Dont understand why raids were a mistake when I am paying customer and I play this game because of raids.

If you dont like raids then dont play them.

And we have much more frequent story updates then we used to so raids dont take that away.

I know that some gamemodes are not that popular but they still try to balance them regulary so they didnt gave up on them either

[Grogba.6204]

Scrapper is probably the most durable, selfsustainable and unkillable "tank" the game has if build properly. You just don't need such a tank anywhere because tanking in GW2 is just positioning the boss and whoever has the highest toughness (be it +1 or +1000) is designated for the role by the game unless stated differently (Fixation, no aggro).

 

Does Mesmer come with a truck full of utility? Yes. The majority of classes lack said utility though. For a game initially (and still in many situations) based on damage, support, control the mesmer has tools for all of them and the class' variation of said skills come with the lowest opportunity costs compared with other classes. Warr and Ranger both come with a better weapon skill whirl (axe 5) than the Thief's _Elite_ Daggerstorm minus the stability. The main problem is that the majority of classes have good to great damage but mediocre to suppar support abilities and thus there *is* nothing to compare Chrono/Mesmer with.

 

If anything, we need more classes on par with Mesmer in control and support aspects, not the other way around. Nerfing core Mesmer (because 80% of what people complain Chrono is capable of comes from Mesmer minus Shield and Well skills) without heavily changing the majority/all ingame encounters would ultimately punish the entire playerbase and not just the "evil elitists".

 

 

[segman.3560]

> @"Grogba.6204" said:

> If anything, we need more classes on par with Mesmer in control and support aspects, not the other way around.

 

So the power creep intensifies and we can all play with 1 finger? No thank you

 

[Grogba.6204]

> @"segman.3560" said:

 

> So the power creep intensifies and we can all play with 1 finger? No thank you

 

 

The damage and boonshare in the current meta are another issue, if you just rip Mesmer/Chrono apart and leave the game be you create a more restricting meta than ever before and I am certain the majority of players currently playing cms and raids would simply not able to cope with the change.

 

Edit: besides that. There is *no* meaningful choice to make for many classes in terms of gear, traits, weapons and skills due to how weak said skills are. The same holds true for Mesmer, too, but the class at least has the choice to take one thing for another.

 

Besides that: If you can play chrono with one finger at all times I'd like to see your makro.

[Amineo.8951]

> @"Grogba.6204" said:

> > @"segman.3560" said:

>

> > So the power creep intensifies and we can all play with 1 finger? No thank you

>

>

> The damage and boonshare in the current meta are another issue, if you just rip Mesmer/Chrono apart and leave the game be you create a more restricting meta than ever before and I am certain the majority of players currently playing cms and raids would simply not able to cope with the change.

>

> Edit: besides that. There is *no* meaningful choice to make for many classes in terms of gear, traits, weapons and skills due to how weak said skills are. The same holds true for Mesmer, too, but the class at least has the choice to take one thing for another.

>

> Besides that: If you can play chrono with one finger at all times I'd like to see your makro.

 

I can maintain perma alacrity and quickness by clicking skills, that's almost one finger if we don't count moving the character occasionally.

[Imperadordf.2687]

> @"segman.3560" said:

> > @"Grogba.6204" said:

> > If anything, we need more classes on par with Mesmer in control and support aspects, not the other way around.

>

> So the power creep intensifies and we can all play with 1 finger? No thank you

>

 

How?

[Xantaria.8726]

> @"segman.3560" said:

> > @"Grogba.6204" said:

> > If anything, we need more classes on par with Mesmer in control and support aspects, not the other way around.

>

> So the power creep intensifies and we can all play with 1 finger? No thank you

>

 

The power creep wouldnt change a bit, instead of 2 chronos, you would have 2 other builds doing the job of chrono.

A greater power creep would be if either 1 build/class can do the same as 2 chronos, meining holding perma quickness/alac on a 10-man-squad alone. Or if a new espec is introduced which breaks current benchmarks again. Or if this class/build is a healer at the same time, so you can drop druid *and* chrono, making it a 3 support setup with now 7 dps players.

If you actual mean that this may screw pvp/wvw, make the changes pve only.

 

Otherwise you dont make the encounter any easier by adding more builds that can keep up perma quickness+alac on 5 people.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"segman.3560" said:

> > @"Grogba.6204" said:

> > If anything, we need more classes on par with Mesmer in control and support aspects, not the other way around.

>

> So the power creep intensifies and we can all play with 1 finger? No thank you

>

 

It's not powercreep if you create alternatives. If you overbuff other classes to be vastly more powerful then chrono, sure.

 

Then again quickness and alacrity are capped at 100% duration (which is already achievable) , so giving more classes access to them in support builds is not the same as increasing damage for example.

[thrag.9740]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said

> It's not god tier. It's just that all other support builds are trash tier.

This statement continues to be the most accurate. No other class is even close to specing to be a full support. Most examples brought up in this thread are dps classes that bring 1 or 2 boons, not really a support. The other examples are healers, which are completely different from boon support classses, and most be addressed seperately. Lets look at the numbers below:

 

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> I also don't understand the dps-argument brought up here. If you want to support efficiently, you need specific support-gear including runes, sigils and food. Any possible support build that's going down that path will sacrifice its personal dps

 

Maybe you all don't understand it because your uninformed about the numbers, or maybe your just willfully ignorant of them.

 

Chaos chrono 10K:

(youtube.com/watch?v=q_tIm_huB94)

 

quickness firebrand: 28k

(youtube.com/watch?v=NfVm_XAjBTw)

 

alacrity renegade (not a healer, just a renegade that gives perm alacrity, power and condi builds similar): 26k

(youtube.com/watch?v=AdMmqmEYpko)

(youtube.com/watch?v=SGpZu2exus8) note this isn't perm alacrity, but it is close. Its the best video resource I have at the time being.

 

So, the two most cited alternative support builds are doing 2.5x the dps of chrono. Thats why all these other builds are trash tier supports. Because they aren't supports, they are hybrids. Chrono is the only build that has the option of sacrificing so much personal dps to create boon output. Chrono is the only build that deserves to be called a support (as long as we don't foolishly lump healers into that term).

 

There should absolutely be other classes that can do that. But comparing chrono boon output to either of these two, is comparing apples and oranges. Additionally comparing chrono to heal firebrand and heal renegade is misleading as well, because chrono isn't a healer.

 

Heal firebrand and heal renegade deserve to be compared to druid. All 3 builds are healers with some boon output. Might+fury for druid, quickness+fury for firebrand, and alacrity+might for renegade. Of course, druid has spirits, but it also has the weakest heals, and in fact there are several situations where other healers are commonly brought in to replace druid for higher heals, matthias is common, as is sh, and now sc's recent 4 man deimos (https://old.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/9cc69k/sc_4man_deimos/).

 

> @"kasoki.5180" said:

> And almost everything that was said in this topic leads to the problem of single class being able to give out two most important boons in the meta (quickness+alacrity). You can call it whatever you want, Chrono being OP, other classes being trash. It's same in the end.

>

> You are just watering down the issue.

 

Except we are not, you are. You are naively placing all builds that give boons into the same category, 'support'. But this is deceptive, look at the dps difference, firebrand and renegade don't deserve to output the boons chrono outputs, because they don't sacrifice anywhere near as much to do what they do. They need options to be able to lower their dps down to chrono level, and raiser their boon support up to chrono level at the same time. But chrono is about in the correct spot for what a support build should be able to do.

 

[kasoki.5180]

> @"thrag.9740" said:

> > @"kasoki.5180" said:

> > And almost everything that was said in this topic leads to the problem of single class being able to give out two most important boons in the meta (quickness+alacrity). You can call it whatever you want, Chrono being OP, other classes being trash. It's same in the end.

> >

> > You are just watering down the issue.

>

> Except we are not, you are. You are naively placing all builds that give boons into the same category, 'support'. But this is deceptive, look at the dps difference, firebrand and renegade don't deserve to output the boons chrono outputs, because they don't sacrifice anywhere near as much to do what they do. They need options to be able to lower their dps down to chrono level, and raiser their boon support up to chrono level at the same time. But chrono is about in the correct spot for what a support build should be able to do.

>

 

Except that I have never said that. I have never grouped them in the same category of "support". And again, this idea that chrono is in the "correct" spot is based on the idea that quickness + alacrity on one kit are standard for what a support is or should be. Because that is the main boon advantage that chronomancer has over other boon classes.

 

And you are correct in saying that comparing chronomancer boon capacity with other classes is comparing apples and oranges. And that is precisely the problem that many in the group are presenting. If you have boons that are far more important and consequential for the game and you decide to give them to a single profession, you have created a problem.

 

Edit: Your Firebrand video is a condi dps firebrand with viper gear. His perma quickness comes from preset alacrity, which is NOT a FB boon. The video does absolutely nothing for the argument how support firebrand is actually dps hybrid. If you want to prove that point present a dps video of FB in actual support gear, without non-guardian boons

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"kasoki.5180" said:

> > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > @"kasoki.5180" said:

> > > And almost everything that was said in this topic leads to the problem of single class being able to give out two most important boons in the meta (quickness+alacrity). You can call it whatever you want, Chrono being OP, other classes being trash. It's same in the end.

> > >

> > > You are just watering down the issue.

> >

> > Except we are not, you are. You are naively placing all builds that give boons into the same category, 'support'. But this is deceptive, look at the dps difference, firebrand and renegade don't deserve to output the boons chrono outputs, because they don't sacrifice anywhere near as much to do what they do. They need options to be able to lower their dps down to chrono level, and raiser their boon support up to chrono level at the same time. But chrono is about in the correct spot for what a support build should be able to do.

> >

>

> Except that I have never said that. I have never grouped them in the same category of "support". And again, this idea that chrono is in the "correct" spot is based on the idea that quickness + alacrity on one kit are standard for what a support is or should be. Because that is the main boon advantage that chronomancer has over other boon classes.

>

> And you are correct in saying that comparing chronomancer boon capacity with other classes is comparing apples and oranges. And that is precisely the problem that many in the group are presenting. If you have boons that are far more important and consequential for the game and you decide to give them to a single profession, you have created a problem.

 

Which can be discussed, but then bring proper arguments beside the usual "it's overpowered because I say so."

 

No one has established that having a class provide the 2 most essential boons, or even all boons, is overpowered. That depends on how strong the boons are. It certainly doesn't pose a problem in the spvp and wvw setting. In a pve setting having less required classes who bring boons is a BENEFIT.

 

The argument that chrono needs to be nerfed is one way of approaching this issue, while at the same time creating problems in group composition.

 

Bringing 1-2 more actual supports who can maintain quickness and alacrity or even all boons would be another way of addressing this issue without causing group problems, at least not the same ones.

 

> @"kasoki.5180" said:

>

> Edit: Your Firebrand video is a condi dps firebrand with viper gear. His perma quickness comes from preset alacrity, which is NOT a FB boon. The video does absolutely nothing for the argument how support firebrand is actually dps hybrid. If you want to prove that point present a dps video of FB in actual support gear, without non-guardian boons

 

Considering permanent alacrity is a given in a raid setting by simple fact that it's required: the point is moot or near insignificant. The fact that Firebrand can provide permanent quickness WITHOUT boon duration alone puts it ahead of chrono. Chrono can not do so without outside boon duration. Imagine if chrono lost alacrity, its quickness generation would fall behind firebrand.

 

Stop looking at single classes while balancing for a 5 or 10 man group setup.

[Xantaria.8726]

> @"kasoki.5180" said:

> > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > @"kasoki.5180" said:

> > > And almost everything that was said in this topic leads to the problem of single class being able to give out two most important boons in the meta (quickness+alacrity). You can call it whatever you want, Chrono being OP, other classes being trash. It's same in the end.

> > >

> > > You are just watering down the issue.

> >

> > Except we are not, you are. You are naively placing all builds that give boons into the same category, 'support'. But this is deceptive, look at the dps difference, firebrand and renegade don't deserve to output the boons chrono outputs, because they don't sacrifice anywhere near as much to do what they do. They need options to be able to lower their dps down to chrono level, and raiser their boon support up to chrono level at the same time. But chrono is about in the correct spot for what a support build should be able to do.

> >

>

> Except that I have never said that. I have never grouped them in the same category of "support". And again, this idea that chrono is in the "correct" spot is based on the idea that quickness + alacrity on one kit are standard for what a support is or should be. Because that is the main boon advantage that chronomancer has over other boon classes.

>

> And you are correct in saying that comparing chronomancer boon capacity with other classes is comparing apples and oranges. And that is precisely the problem that many in the group are presenting. If you have boons that are far more important and consequential for the game and you decide to give them to a single profession, you have created a problem.

>

> Edit: Your Firebrand video is a condi dps firebrand with viper gear. His perma quickness comes from preset alacrity, which is NOT a FB boon. The video does absolutely nothing for the argument how support firebrand is actually dps hybrid. If you want to prove that point present a dps video of FB in actual support gear, without non-guardian boons

 

This rather shows that you never did any benchmarking....

When doing a benchmark video, being it dps or boon, you preset your boons and conditions on the you and golem which are preset in a regular squad, which is in this case by assuming that a renegade comes along(otherwise you wouldnt play fb support in the first place). Also you could screw any benchmark-rotation-videos othwerwise cause no dpsbuild in this section is giving itself boons(or at least not constantly).

His video is correct, he is proofing that a fb with constant alac can uphold perm quickness while doing said dps.

Second remove alac from Chrono and the whole espec is getting pretty pointless, cause alac is the theme of chronomancer.

Did they shoot themself in the leg with this boon? Maybe.

But this isnt the problem here.

The problem is that it wouldnt be so bad with fb and rene support if their supportskills wouldnt be so underperforming. If you run a renegade alac buffer with the goal to uphold almost perma alac, you have literaly no energie left to even move the board of him. This is the major problem of rene, not having enough energie to spam your boonskills or that the duration the skills are giving is to low in the first place.

The major problem of fb is that the party he is in isnt prioritized *and* that they should have the same radius as chrono wells.

IF those two conditions would fit, you would have an alternativ which the community would even accept, cause you may have less cc then with chronomancer, but you will have more group dps this way.

Therefore, you are correct that he has an advantage over other boon builds cause he can uphold alac+quickness perma, but nerfing it wont solve anything. instead of 2 chronomancer, people will instead run 4 or 2chrono+2fb+2rene+1-2druid+1bs+2-3dps, which would make things even worse again cause now you would have 7-8 locked spots and only 2-3 spots which can be filled with any dpsbuilds.

The options are either create alternatives, keep the actual status, or remove alac completly from the game.

[thrag.9740]

> @"kasoki.5180" said:

> Edit: Your Firebrand video is a condi dps firebrand with viper gear. His perma quickness comes from preset alacrity, which is NOT a FB boon. The video does absolutely nothing for the argument how support firebrand is actually dps hybrid. If you want to prove that point present a dps video of FB in actual support gear, without non-guardian boons

 

Please tell me precisely what you mean by support gear. Do you mean healing gear? Because its pretty stupid to compare a healer to a booner, and yell that the healer doesn't output enough boons.

 

 

[yann.1946]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"kasoki.5180" said:

> > > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > > @"kasoki.5180" said:

> > > > And almost everything that was said in this topic leads to the problem of single class being able to give out two most important boons in the meta (quickness+alacrity). You can call it whatever you want, Chrono being OP, other classes being trash. It's same in the end.

> > > >

> > > > You are just watering down the issue.

> > >

> > > Except we are not, you are. You are naively placing all builds that give boons into the same category, 'support'. But this is deceptive, look at the dps difference, firebrand and renegade don't deserve to output the boons chrono outputs, because they don't sacrifice anywhere near as much to do what they do. They need options to be able to lower their dps down to chrono level, and raiser their boon support up to chrono level at the same time. But chrono is about in the correct spot for what a support build should be able to do.

> > >

> >

> > Except that I have never said that. I have never grouped them in the same category of "support". And again, this idea that chrono is in the "correct" spot is based on the idea that quickness + alacrity on one kit are standard for what a support is or should be. Because that is the main boon advantage that chronomancer has over other boon classes.

> >

> > And you are correct in saying that comparing chronomancer boon capacity with other classes is comparing apples and oranges. And that is precisely the problem that many in the group are presenting. If you have boons that are far more important and consequential for the game and you decide to give them to a single profession, you have created a problem.

>

> Which can be discussed, but then bring proper arguments beside the usual "it's overpowered because I say so."

>

> No one has established that having a class provide the 2 most essential boons, or even all boons, is overpowered. That depends on how strong the boons are. It certainly doesn't pose a problem in the spvp and wvw setting. In a pve setting having less required classes who bring boons is a BENEFIT.

>

> The argument that chrono needs to be nerfed is one way of approaching this issue, while at the same time creating problems in group composition.

>

> Bringing 1-2 more actual supports who can maintain quickness and alacrity or even all boons would be another way of addressing this issue without causing group problems, at least not the same ones.

>

The argument that giving all boons is overpowered would be the same as the top dps also being a ranged and having insane cleave would be op.

 

The wvw and pvp comparison is a little silly as those modes have totally different needs then pve.

 

I agree that nerfing chrono will cause problems but should we really let balance problems stay because solving then could cause problems.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"yann.1946" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"kasoki.5180" said:

> > > > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > > > @"kasoki.5180" said:

> > > > > And almost everything that was said in this topic leads to the problem of single class being able to give out two most important boons in the meta (quickness+alacrity). You can call it whatever you want, Chrono being OP, other classes being trash. It's same in the end.

> > > > >

> > > > > You are just watering down the issue.

> > > >

> > > > Except we are not, you are. You are naively placing all builds that give boons into the same category, 'support'. But this is deceptive, look at the dps difference, firebrand and renegade don't deserve to output the boons chrono outputs, because they don't sacrifice anywhere near as much to do what they do. They need options to be able to lower their dps down to chrono level, and raiser their boon support up to chrono level at the same time. But chrono is about in the correct spot for what a support build should be able to do.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Except that I have never said that. I have never grouped them in the same category of "support". And again, this idea that chrono is in the "correct" spot is based on the idea that quickness + alacrity on one kit are standard for what a support is or should be. Because that is the main boon advantage that chronomancer has over other boon classes.

> > >

> > > And you are correct in saying that comparing chronomancer boon capacity with other classes is comparing apples and oranges. And that is precisely the problem that many in the group are presenting. If you have boons that are far more important and consequential for the game and you decide to give them to a single profession, you have created a problem.

> >

> > Which can be discussed, but then bring proper arguments beside the usual "it's overpowered because I say so."

> >

> > No one has established that having a class provide the 2 most essential boons, or even all boons, is overpowered. That depends on how strong the boons are. It certainly doesn't pose a problem in the spvp and wvw setting. In a pve setting having less required classes who bring boons is a BENEFIT.

> >

> > The argument that chrono needs to be nerfed is one way of approaching this issue, while at the same time creating problems in group composition.

> >

> > Bringing 1-2 more actual supports who can maintain quickness and alacrity or even all boons would be another way of addressing this issue without causing group problems, at least not the same ones.

> >

> The argument that giving all boons is overpowered would be the same as the top dps also being a ranged and having insane cleave would be op.

>

> The wvw and pvp comparison is a little silly as those modes have totally different needs then pve.

>

> I agree that nerfing chrono will cause problems but should we really let balance problems stay because solving then could cause problems.

 

No that is nonsense. The comparison is just off.

 

Boons and duration has a Limit. Dps does not.

 

Case in point: raids have gotten progressively easier with higher top dps and allowed for non-meta classes to succeed as dps.

 

Allowing for more classes to provide Boons on a similar level would do the same for support roles. I'm not even sure how one can misunderstand this.

[Raizel.8175]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"yann.1946" said:

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > @"kasoki.5180" said:

> > > > > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > > > > @"kasoki.5180" said:

> > > > > > And almost everything that was said in this topic leads to the problem of single class being able to give out two most important boons in the meta (quickness+alacrity). You can call it whatever you want, Chrono being OP, other classes being trash. It's same in the end.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You are just watering down the issue.

> > > > >

> > > > > Except we are not, you are. You are naively placing all builds that give boons into the same category, 'support'. But this is deceptive, look at the dps difference, firebrand and renegade don't deserve to output the boons chrono outputs, because they don't sacrifice anywhere near as much to do what they do. They need options to be able to lower their dps down to chrono level, and raiser their boon support up to chrono level at the same time. But chrono is about in the correct spot for what a support build should be able to do.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Except that I have never said that. I have never grouped them in the same category of "support". And again, this idea that chrono is in the "correct" spot is based on the idea that quickness + alacrity on one kit are standard for what a support is or should be. Because that is the main boon advantage that chronomancer has over other boon classes.

> > > >

> > > > And you are correct in saying that comparing chronomancer boon capacity with other classes is comparing apples and oranges. And that is precisely the problem that many in the group are presenting. If you have boons that are far more important and consequential for the game and you decide to give them to a single profession, you have created a problem.

> > >

> > > Which can be discussed, but then bring proper arguments beside the usual "it's overpowered because I say so."

> > >

> > > No one has established that having a class provide the 2 most essential boons, or even all boons, is overpowered. That depends on how strong the boons are. It certainly doesn't pose a problem in the spvp and wvw setting. In a pve setting having less required classes who bring boons is a BENEFIT.

> > >

> > > The argument that chrono needs to be nerfed is one way of approaching this issue, while at the same time creating problems in group composition.

> > >

> > > Bringing 1-2 more actual supports who can maintain quickness and alacrity or even all boons would be another way of addressing this issue without causing group problems, at least not the same ones.

> > >

> > The argument that giving all boons is overpowered would be the same as the top dps also being a ranged and having insane cleave would be op.

> >

> > The wvw and pvp comparison is a little silly as those modes have totally different needs then pve.

> >

> > I agree that nerfing chrono will cause problems but should we really let balance problems stay because solving then could cause problems.

>

> No that is nonsense. The comparison is just off.

>

> Boons and duration has a Limit. Dps does not.

>

> Case in point: raids have gotten progressively easier with higher top dps and allowed for non-meta classes to succeed as dps.

>

> Allowing for more classes to provide Boons on a similar level would do the same for support roles. I'm not even sure how one can misunderstand this.

 

Well, ok, then let's imagine that Chrono keeps both Alacrity and Quickness, fine. But what about other stuff like effective controlling and huge CC? What bugs me the most about Chrono is that Chrono is often responsible for as many mechanics as possible if there aren't mechanics that prevent Chrono from doing so. We already have a very crippled action combat/tab targetting combat system that doesn't really allow for sophisticated gameplay and Chrono even worsens that situation. GW2's PvE really, really, really lacks actual teamplay in which people have to interact with each other and in which the interaction/teamplay isn't just limited to stuff like "toughness?", "1st Moa, 2nd Moa" or "spirits?". The only real argument against more balance in that regard is that it would make raiding probably even more niche than it already is.

[Xantaria.8726]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"yann.1946" said:

> > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > @"kasoki.5180" said:

> > > > > > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > > > > > @"kasoki.5180" said:

> > > > > > > And almost everything that was said in this topic leads to the problem of single class being able to give out two most important boons in the meta (quickness+alacrity). You can call it whatever you want, Chrono being OP, other classes being trash. It's same in the end.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > You are just watering down the issue.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Except we are not, you are. You are naively placing all builds that give boons into the same category, 'support'. But this is deceptive, look at the dps difference, firebrand and renegade don't deserve to output the boons chrono outputs, because they don't sacrifice anywhere near as much to do what they do. They need options to be able to lower their dps down to chrono level, and raiser their boon support up to chrono level at the same time. But chrono is about in the correct spot for what a support build should be able to do.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Except that I have never said that. I have never grouped them in the same category of "support". And again, this idea that chrono is in the "correct" spot is based on the idea that quickness + alacrity on one kit are standard for what a support is or should be. Because that is the main boon advantage that chronomancer has over other boon classes.

> > > > >

> > > > > And you are correct in saying that comparing chronomancer boon capacity with other classes is comparing apples and oranges. And that is precisely the problem that many in the group are presenting. If you have boons that are far more important and consequential for the game and you decide to give them to a single profession, you have created a problem.

> > > >

> > > > Which can be discussed, but then bring proper arguments beside the usual "it's overpowered because I say so."

> > > >

> > > > No one has established that having a class provide the 2 most essential boons, or even all boons, is overpowered. That depends on how strong the boons are. It certainly doesn't pose a problem in the spvp and wvw setting. In a pve setting having less required classes who bring boons is a BENEFIT.

> > > >

> > > > The argument that chrono needs to be nerfed is one way of approaching this issue, while at the same time creating problems in group composition.

> > > >

> > > > Bringing 1-2 more actual supports who can maintain quickness and alacrity or even all boons would be another way of addressing this issue without causing group problems, at least not the same ones.

> > > >

> > > The argument that giving all boons is overpowered would be the same as the top dps also being a ranged and having insane cleave would be op.

> > >

> > > The wvw and pvp comparison is a little silly as those modes have totally different needs then pve.

> > >

> > > I agree that nerfing chrono will cause problems but should we really let balance problems stay because solving then could cause problems.

> >

> > No that is nonsense. The comparison is just off.

> >

> > Boons and duration has a Limit. Dps does not.

> >

> > Case in point: raids have gotten progressively easier with higher top dps and allowed for non-meta classes to succeed as dps.

> >

> > Allowing for more classes to provide Boons on a similar level would do the same for support roles. I'm not even sure how one can misunderstand this.

>

> Well, ok, then let's imagine that Chrono keeps both Alacrity and Quickness, fine. But what about other stuff like effective controlling and huge CC? What bugs me the most about Chrono is that Chrono is often responsible for as many mechanics as possible if there aren't mechanics that prevent Chrono from doing so. We already have a very crippled action combat/tab targetting combat system that doesn't really allow for sophisticated gameplay and Chrono even worsens that situation. GW2's PvE really, really, really lacks actual teamplay in which people have to interact with each other and in which the interaction/teamplay isn't just limited to stuff like "toughness?", "1st Moa, 2nd Moa" or "spirits?". The only real argument against more balance in that regard is that it would make raiding probably even more niche than it already is.

 

Not really a problem. Yes chrono is in most cases the one with the most cc skills, but nor cause he is the only one who can. He is the only one who should. Cause the more dps-player have to take cc skills, the less dps they can do. On the downside, chrono loses almost all his dps for this. If you now take a fb and a renegade, you may loss the cc of a chrono, but you can therefore run dps while buffing (if they would buff both builds a little more to be actual usefull), meaning that the other dps-players can now take some cc skills again to make up for it without lossing groupdps, since fb+rene can both run good dps to make up for the dmg lost of the dps players (which isnt even much when you think about how much cc some classes have without losing much dps, necro the golem, mirrage moa, dh the elitetrap, bs wild blow etc etc). So no, the argument how much cc a chrono has is not really a good one.

 

On the argument of more teamplay: Ähm i wouldnt mind actual, but on a serious note: just as you said, raids would become even more niche. those who are crying for an easy mode are already not able to do the minimum of groupplay we have right now. Dont know how much more would actual help at this point :/