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The only problem with Druid/Chrono is that it contradicts the illusion ANET tries to cast that every profession is equally viable, and that no trinity system exists. Outside of raids, I think that is true, given you don't need Druid/Chrono in T1-3 fractals, and you can complete T4 without them, it just makes it harder / less forgiving of mistakes or poor play.

 

I don't have a Mesmer, and my Ranger will be Soulbeast forever, and I have no problem with going into T4 LFG and seeing "LF Chrono / Druid", because I'm sure as kitten glad to see both in my party when I zone into the fractal lobby.

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Havhing 100% quickness is extremely borken and something i am sure ANET never intended. I have raided in WoW since the BC era and having something like quickness should only be extremely limited. Like in WoW we had shamans giving Heroism and eventually mages with timewarp for 40 secs and those were used strategically for burn phases. No other profession can even remotely match the quickness uptime chrono's got.

And oh, on a completely different side, mesmers can also burst a 28k necro from 100% to 0% in pvp within 1 sec if they messes their initial dodge timing. So yeah, its not like mesmers don't have extremely high burst, they can do anything they want, its just that in fractals and raids they are support meta.

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> @"Pridedemon.3041" said:

> Havhing 100% quickness is extremely borken and something i am sure ANET never intended. I have raided in WoW since the BC era and having something like quickness should only be extremely limited. Like in WoW we had shamans giving Heroism and eventually mages with timewarp for 40 secs and those were used strategically for burn phases. No other profession can even remotely match the quickness uptime chrono's got.

> And oh, on a completely different side, mesmers can also burst a 28k necro from 100% to 0% in pvp within 1 sec if they messes their initial dodge timing. So yeah, its not like mesmers don't have extremely high burst, they can do anything they want, its just that in fractals and raids they are support meta.

 

The burst is not from a Support build, so yes mesmer has other builds and can spike really well. Please don't come here an bring the "dps, boon share, healing the class can do all build" and expect to get taken seriously.

 

The entire comparison with WoW is wierd. WoW has Party wide permanent buffs, dedicated healers, dedicated tanks, cooldowns which reduce damage or which increases damage by a huge fraction even if temporary.

 

Not sure what an entire different combat system has to do with GW2. Literally Apples to Oranges.

 

Quick ess has been in the game since release and if a permanent application of it was not intended it would not have been changed to a boon and definately not made available to even more classes.

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> @"Pridedemon.3041" said:

> Havhing 100% quickness is extremely borken and something i am sure ANET never intended. I have raided in WoW since the BC era and having something like quickness should only be extremely limited. Like in WoW we had shamans giving Heroism and eventually mages with timewarp for 40 secs and those were used strategically for burn phases. No other profession can even remotely match the quickness uptime chrono's got.

> And oh, on a completely different side, mesmers can also burst a 28k necro from 100% to 0% in pvp within 1 sec if they messes their initial dodge timing. So yeah, its not like mesmers don't have extremely high burst, they can do anything they want, its just that in fractals and raids they are support meta.

 

Firebrand can match quickness.

Also 25 might is roughly same damage incresee as quickness (better for some builds and worse for others) and there are numerous builds that can provide 25 might.

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> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> The only problem with Druid/Chrono is that it contradicts the illusion ANET tries to cast that every profession is equally viable, and that no trinity system exists. Outside of raids, I think that is true, given you don't need Druid/Chrono in T1-3 fractals, and you can complete T4 without them, it just makes it harder / less forgiving of mistakes or poor play.

>

> I don't have a Mesmer, and my Ranger will be Soulbeast forever, and I have no problem with going into T4 LFG and seeing "LF Chrono / Druid", because I'm sure as kitten glad to see both in my party when I zone into the fractal lobby.

 

The non-trinity idea never applied to raids. That was pretty clear from the first beta we could play them. Also trinity would still exist if you tank with a firebrand and heal with a revenant.

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> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > @"Pridedemon.3041" said:

> > Havhing 100% quickness is extremely borken and something i am sure ANET never intended. I have raided in WoW since the BC era and having something like quickness should only be extremely limited. Like in WoW we had shamans giving Heroism and eventually mages with timewarp for 40 secs and those were used strategically for burn phases. No other profession can even remotely match the quickness uptime chrono's got.

> > And oh, on a completely different side, mesmers can also burst a 28k necro from 100% to 0% in pvp within 1 sec if they messes their initial dodge timing. So yeah, its not like mesmers don't have extremely high burst, they can do anything they want, its just that in fractals and raids they are support meta.

>

> Firebrand can match quickness.

> Also 25 might is roughly same damage incresee as quickness (better for some builds and worse for others) and there are numerous builds that can provide 25 might.

 

25 might doesn't give the same damage as quickness, as every comp that is even remotely meta assumes you have both.

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> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > @"Pridedemon.3041" said:

> > > Havhing 100% quickness is extremely borken and something i am sure ANET never intended. I have raided in WoW since the BC era and having something like quickness should only be extremely limited. Like in WoW we had shamans giving Heroism and eventually mages with timewarp for 40 secs and those were used strategically for burn phases. No other profession can even remotely match the quickness uptime chrono's got.

> > > And oh, on a completely different side, mesmers can also burst a 28k necro from 100% to 0% in pvp within 1 sec if they messes their initial dodge timing. So yeah, its not like mesmers don't have extremely high burst, they can do anything they want, its just that in fractals and raids they are support meta.

> >

> > Firebrand can match quickness.

> > Also 25 might is roughly same damage incresee as quickness (better for some builds and worse for others) and there are numerous builds that can provide 25 might.

>

> 25 might doesn't give the same damage as quickness, as every comp that is even remotely meta assumes you have both.

 

I dont understand your point. Can you explain that more please?

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> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > > @"Pridedemon.3041" said:

> > > > Havhing 100% quickness is extremely borken and something i am sure ANET never intended. I have raided in WoW since the BC era and having something like quickness should only be extremely limited. Like in WoW we had shamans giving Heroism and eventually mages with timewarp for 40 secs and those were used strategically for burn phases. No other profession can even remotely match the quickness uptime chrono's got.

> > > > And oh, on a completely different side, mesmers can also burst a 28k necro from 100% to 0% in pvp within 1 sec if they messes their initial dodge timing. So yeah, its not like mesmers don't have extremely high burst, they can do anything they want, its just that in fractals and raids they are support meta.

> > >

> > > Firebrand can match quickness.

> > > Also 25 might is roughly same damage incresee as quickness (better for some builds and worse for others) and there are numerous builds that can provide 25 might.

> >

> > 25 might doesn't give the same damage as quickness, as every comp that is even remotely meta assumes you have both.

>

> I dont understand your point. Can you explain that more please?

 

Damage output = (raw damage) * (might modifier) * (quickness modifier) * (all other modifiers).

 

Let's assume (might modifier) = (quickness modifier).

 

You still can't compensate for quickness with might, as you can't have 50 might and you're already assumed to have 25 at all times.

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> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > > > @"Pridedemon.3041" said:

> > > > > Havhing 100% quickness is extremely borken and something i am sure ANET never intended. I have raided in WoW since the BC era and having something like quickness should only be extremely limited. Like in WoW we had shamans giving Heroism and eventually mages with timewarp for 40 secs and those were used strategically for burn phases. No other profession can even remotely match the quickness uptime chrono's got.

> > > > > And oh, on a completely different side, mesmers can also burst a 28k necro from 100% to 0% in pvp within 1 sec if they messes their initial dodge timing. So yeah, its not like mesmers don't have extremely high burst, they can do anything they want, its just that in fractals and raids they are support meta.

> > > >

> > > > Firebrand can match quickness.

> > > > Also 25 might is roughly same damage incresee as quickness (better for some builds and worse for others) and there are numerous builds that can provide 25 might.

> > >

> > > 25 might doesn't give the same damage as quickness, as every comp that is even remotely meta assumes you have both.

> >

> > I dont understand your point. Can you explain that more please?

>

> Damage output = (raw damage) * (might modifier) * (quickness modifier) * (all other modifiers).

>

> Let's assume (might modifier) = (quickness modifier).

>

> You still can't compensate for quickness with might, as you can't have 50 might and you're already assumed to have 25 at all times.

 

Thats true. He argued that 100% uptime on quickness is broken and that this level of dps boost should be only for short burst phases. I countered with the fact that modifire from quickness is not that much better then modifier from might (and definitly on same level as might+fury) but those modifires are completely fine. The fact that quickness is rarer doesnt change the fact that similar modifier is not broken.

After anet fix the firebrand mantras there will be competition and we can start talking about nerfs.

But in pve there will always be best option, be it dps slot, might stacker or quickness bot. You can clear raids with core necromancers as you can with firebrands/renegades.

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One way to "reduce" the impact of Spirits and Banners would be to normalize their effects accross the classes, meaning that - for example - [frost spirit] would apply the same buffs [banner of strength] would. With some flavour kept (banners can be moved around, spirits have explodes + better redeployment) to give them different functionality but not different impact. Said mechanic could then _maybe_ expanded on another class with little impact in raids nowadays *cough* Nekro minions *cough*.

 

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> @"Grogba.6204" said:

> One way to "reduce" the impact of Spirits and Banners would be to normalize their effects accross the classes, meaning that - for example - [frost spirit] would apply the same buffs [banner of strength] would. With some flavour kept (banners can be moved around, spirits have explodes + better redeployment) to give them different functionality but not different impact. Said mechanic could then _maybe_ expanded on another class with little impact in raids nowadays *cough* Nekro minions *cough*.

>

 

One of the worst things they can do. It further reduces everything down to damage they deal and utility they bring while removing flavour. Tempest will still not be used as a healer. Renegade will just take the place of druids to get 100% alacrity in all situations. Chronos will be still irreplaceable.

Druids can already be replaced by soulbeasts. Spotter is just a bonus and not neccessary and the effect of spirits scales with the other players stats. It doesn't matter who brings them. SB can bring one spirit without much DPS loss. All things that druid brings besides some might and Glyph of Empowerment are core skills.

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Simple solution....

 

Remove the alacrity they gave to Renegade (because that was horrendously forced to attempt to give them a slot) and Make Chrono's alacrity personal only.

Then fix the fundemental issues the Revenant class has to actually make them and their elites usable without intentionally pigeonholing them like they've done before.

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> @"yann.1946" said:

> When i started raiding their where a few times where people decided to take a hammerguard because the group was having troubles. My argument is Chrono is overpowered because it takes away almost all the choice.

Hammerguard got dropped from meta long before Chaos Chrono times, and it got dropped for reasons that had nothing to do with Chrono, but a lot with its dps. And even when it was still considered to be an option, it was a subpar choice.

 

> It would change it drasticly but should it be a reason. If you assume giving all the boons is OP (I know we disagree on this but roll with it for a second) should we stop trying to fix it because it would make the content harder?

But is it? Let's be honest, the group will have all the needed boons anyway. All that might change is only how restictive the group composition would need to be in order to achieve that. If so, is there any gain in making it more restrictive than it already is?

 

> To make different options equal we can't just buff the underperforming classes. We also should nerf the overperforming classes even it would make the content harder.

Sure. The question however is whether chrono is overperforming at all (and if it is, to what degree). That cannot be answered if all people do is to compare it with hybrid builds. Any specialized build can be said to overperform compared to hybrid ones (unless it's really, really bad), but it doesn't mean it's overperforming in general.

 

Suport Chrono is a boon bot. If it wasn't giving out boons in sufficient quality to make it worth a slot in a group composition, it would be underperforming.

 

 

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> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"yann.1946" said:

> > When i started raiding their where a few times where people decided to take a hammerguard because the group was having troubles. My argument is Chrono is overpowered because it takes away almost all the choice.

> Hammerguard got dropped from meta long before Chaos Chrono times, and it got dropped for reasons that had nothing to do with Chrono, but a lot with its dps. And even when it was still considered to be an option, it was a subpar choice.

>

 

I know my point was that this was something that people could do to help the group even if it was not the best choice.

 

This is a something which I feel was healthier.

I don't think hammerguard ever was Meta tho?

 

> > It would change it drasticly but should it be a reason. If you assume giving all the boons is OP (I know we disagree on this but roll with it for a second) should we stop trying to fix it because it would make the content harder?

> But is it? Let's be honest, the group will have all the needed boons anyway. All that might change is only how restictive the group composition would need to be in order to achieve that. If so, is there any gain in making it more restrictive than it already is?

>

 

why have boons in pve at all if you don't have to make choices.

 

And I was mostly arguing against the argument that we shouldn't change things cause they will make it harder.

 

 

> > To make different options equal we can't just buff the underperforming classes. We also should nerf the overperforming classes even it would make the content harder.

> Sure. The question however is whether chrono is overperforming at all (and if it is, to what degree). That cannot be answered if all people do is to compare it with hybrid builds. Any specialized build can be said to overperform compared to hybrid ones (unless it's really, really bad), but it doesn't mean it's overperforming in general.

>

> Suport Chrono is a boon bot. If it wasn't giving out boons in sufficient quality to make it worth a slot in a group composition, it would be underperforming.

>

>

 

The question is what is sufficient I guess.

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> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> Dd has a boon share build?

 

Yes, it basically gives every boon except for alacrity to all 10 players in your squad. It only works on some bosses due to the stolen skill.

On bosses like Mursaat, this allows your chronos to go duel illu and still share the boons the deadeyes need with help of the daredevil.

Depending on how fast your squad is with the kill you can even drop well of action for the disenchanter.

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> @"yann.1946" said:

> I don't think hammerguard ever was Meta tho?

It was borderline at some point. It was a bit inferior to the normal dps guardian build, but not too much behind, and it offered not only perma prot, but also better cc. Usually you'd also be taking refects on it. It went out of use after a while, and the main reason was that permaprot just wasn't all that useful to justify the dps loss (which became bigger and bigger with every balance patch).

 

> @"yann.1946" said:

> why have boons in pve at all if you don't have to make choices.

I guess to separate yolo/casual groups from the more organized ones.

 

Seriously, i don't remember offhand any point in time/MMO when you really _had_ the choice. The boons were either useful enough to take, in which case they were taken, or they weren't useful enough to justify sacrifices, in which case they were left out of the picture. As far as boons are concerned, there is always the optimal setup. All the variations come only from how you arrive at that goal.

 

> And I was mostly arguing against the argument that we shouldn't change things cause they will make it harder.

Except that seems to be the _only_ point of the proposed changes - to make the group setup more restrictive.

 

>

> >

> > Suport Chrono is a boon bot. If it wasn't giving out boons in sufficient quality to make it worth a slot in a group composition, it would be underperforming.

>

> The question is what is sufficient I guess.

At this moment it seems that the absolute minimum requirement is being able to give perma Alacrity + Quickness.

 

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> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> Simple solution....

>

> Remove the alacrity they gave to Renegade (because that was horrendously forced to attempt to give them a slot) and Make Chrono's alacrity personal only.

 

No thanks. I don't understand why you people want alacrity removed from the game. Do you just love slow rotations based around autoattacking?

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> @"Grogba.6204" said:

> One way to "reduce" the impact of Spirits and Banners would be to normalize their effects accross the classes, meaning that - for example - [frost spirit] would apply the same buffs [banner of strength] would. With some flavour kept (banners can be moved around, spirits have explodes + better redeployment) to give them different functionality but not different impact. Said mechanic could then _maybe_ expanded on another class with little impact in raids nowadays *cough* Nekro minions *cough*.

>

That was Blizzard's approach, and its been a horrible disaster. "Bring the player not the class" was the slope their development team slid down, until currently most classes have a fraction of the abilities they had back in Vanilla or Burning Crusade.

 

In GW2 achievements are account wide, the bank is account wide, and ascended/legendary gear is account bound. There is nothing stopping you from rolling a Druid or Mesmer to run T4 fractals. So what if it's not your "main"?

 

I'm perfectly fine with Memsers and Druids being super important because they are not CRITICAL. Last night I did my T4s with a group that didn't have a Chrono, and the Druid was mediocre. Still got the dailies done (lol @ aquatic ruins though).

 

Raiding is a different animal though, and as I don't raid, will not comment.

 

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> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> That was Blizzard's approach, and its been a horrible disaster. "Bring the player not the class" was the slope their development team slid down, until currently most classes have a fraction of the abilities they had back in Vanilla or Burning Crusade.

>

> In GW2 achievements are account wide, the bank is account wide, and ascended/legendary gear is account bound. There is nothing stopping you from rolling a Druid or Mesmer to run T4 fractals. So what if it's not your "main"?

>

> I'm perfectly fine with Memsers and Druids being super important because they are not CRITICAL. Last night I did my T4s with a group that didn't have a Chrono, and the Druid was mediocre. Still got the dailies done (lol @ aquatic ruins though).

>

> Raiding is a different animal though, and as I don't raid, will not comment.

 

I have one of every class and (almost) every build so it is not a problem for me to adapt. I wager to say that it is "easier" in traditional MMOs (at least in LotrO and SW:TOR when I still played those) to change classes on the fly though, as rotations - in my memory at least - were easier to maintain in those than in GW2 where you can see vast differences in performances on pretty much any build. Mind you I know that my idea would probably not work in reality and doing so would probably lead to dropping the warr for a stronger DPS as well as creating another set of problems down the road.

On the other hand, PUGs and non-elite guilds don't care too much what kind of DPS build you bring (outside, say, Staff Weaver for Matthias i.E.) and bring two healers most of the time already thus I imagine changing banner/spirits in that way would make the content more accessible for the "average" player but on the other hand would lead to top performing groups breezing through the content even faster than they already do by nature of having one more DPS slot available. :shrug:

 

Right now the "problem" (if you think it really is a problem, I don't think so though I am biased as a Chrono and Druid player) stems from the fact that great performance is only achievable by having two Chronos, one Warrior and one Druid in your raid squad by nature of how their skills, boons and buffs are designed. The critical aspect being that as long as the numbers of said effects outweight taking another pure DPS instead you will keep a Warrior for the banners.

Same can be said for Druid as well, even though Soulbeasts can bring spirits too, because while the class is actually mediocre in terms of healing output it provides still a ton of utility via pets, strong buff output (Might, Regeneration, Fury, Swiftness + spirits), powerful rezzes (Search and Rescue, Nature's Spirit), ranged heals for "sniping" etc.

 

Ultimately by the freedom the game itself sets, designing a group for number restricted content boils down to opportunity cost. If keeping players alive and mechanics are dealt with it comes down to maximizing DPS, as was already stated, and for that purpose Chrono and Druid are very good packages all around. Nevermind the lack of other full boon supporters that could compete with Chronomancer rather than boon/dps hybrids.

Much in the same way, shaking up the Meta as envisioned by some would either lead to a more restrictive meta or another meta but ultimately the players complaining now about being kicked from groups for bringing the wrong class would still be kicked for bringing the wrong class.

 

 

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> @"thrag.9740" said:

> > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > Simple solution....

> >

> > Remove the alacrity they gave to Renegade (because that was horrendously forced to attempt to give them a slot) and Make Chrono's alacrity personal only.

>

> No thanks. I don't understand why you people want alacrity removed from the game. Do you just love slow rotations based around autoattacking?

 

It wasn't a problem when we didn't have it. It's only proved to be impossible for Anet to balance with it.

So yes remove it. It drastically blows balance out of the water and makes cooldowns meaningless.

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> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > Simple solution....

> > >

> > > Remove the alacrity they gave to Renegade (because that was horrendously forced to attempt to give them a slot) and Make Chrono's alacrity personal only.

> >

> > No thanks. I don't understand why you people want alacrity removed from the game. Do you just love slow rotations based around autoattacking?

>

> It wasn't a problem when we didn't have it. It's only proved to be impossible for Anet to balance with it.

> So yes remove it. It drastically blows balance out of the water and makes cooldowns meaningless.

Scaling all cool downs by a factor of .8 doesn't make them meaningless. Hyperbolic statements like that are pointless.

 

If we want to break all of time down into 2 parts, when gw2 didn't have alacrity (pre-hot) and when gw2 did have alacrity. I can say without any personal doubt the best period of balance in gw2's history was during a time when alacrity was in the game. People might disagree which period, maybe when 4-4-2 was meta, or during epi bounce period, or maybe during the minionmancer days, whatever. But I doubt more than a few percent of the whole community would say the best period was during any of the pre-hot times.

 

So, if alacrity is such a problem to balance around, why was balance without alacrity complete shit compared to modern days? Because alacrity isn't anything special to balance around, Anet just didn't care pre-hot, and now they care a little. If you want better balance, removing alacrity won't do shit. The answer is straight forward, convince Anet to care.

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> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > @"Grogba.6204" said:

> > One way to "reduce" the impact of Spirits and Banners would be to normalize their effects accross the classes, meaning that - for example - [frost spirit] would apply the same buffs [banner of strength] would. With some flavour kept (banners can be moved around, spirits have explodes + better redeployment) to give them different functionality but not different impact. Said mechanic could then _maybe_ expanded on another class with little impact in raids nowadays *cough* Nekro minions *cough*.

> >

> [...]

>

> In GW2 achievements are account wide, the bank is account wide, and ascended/legendary gear is account bound. There is nothing stopping you from rolling a Druid or Mesmer to run T4 fractals. So what if it's not your "main"?

>

> [...]

>

 

It greatly affects the personal gameplay-experience if you can't play the class you enjoy to play and that sucks. ...and yes, you can complete T4 Dailies without a Chrono or a Druid, having one of these classes though is like the difference between night and day - especially if you also do 99CM and 100CM. That leaves us with the problem that there is a huge imbalance between the number of classes the GW2-classpool offers and the classes which are actually mandatory. Mind you: classes, not roles. That's even more so true when you add raids to the equation.

 

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> @"thrag.9740" said:

> > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > > Simple solution....

> > > >

> > > > Remove the alacrity they gave to Renegade (because that was horrendously forced to attempt to give them a slot) and Make Chrono's alacrity personal only.

> > >

> > > No thanks. I don't understand why you people want alacrity removed from the game. Do you just love slow rotations based around autoattacking?

> >

> > It wasn't a problem when we didn't have it. It's only proved to be impossible for Anet to balance with it.

> > So yes remove it. It drastically blows balance out of the water and makes cooldowns meaningless.

> Scaling all cool downs by a factor of .8 doesn't make them meaningless. Hyperbolic statements like that are pointless.

>

> If we want to break all of time down into 2 parts, when gw2 didn't have alacrity (pre-hot) and when gw2 did have alacrity. I can say without any personal doubt the best period of balance in gw2's history was during a time when alacrity was in the game. People might disagree which period, maybe when 4-4-2 was meta, or during epi bounce period, or maybe during the minionmancer days, whatever. But I doubt more than a few percent of the whole community would say the best period was during any of the pre-hot times.

>

> So, if alacrity is such a problem to balance around, why was balance without alacrity complete kitten compared to modern days? Because alacrity isn't anything special to balance around, Anet just didn't care pre-hot, and now they care a little. If you want better balance, removing alacrity won't do kitten. The answer is straight forward, convince Anet to care.

 

If cooldowns really don't matter as you're protesting, then why do we have them to begin with ?

 

They are a neccessary gate and changing them drastically warps their innate power. This changes how all balance has to be factored and Anet still has not gotten this down and probably wont for a while. Removing 25% of a cooldown is extremely significant considering as you put it " Do you just love slow rotations based around autoattacking".

 

Or are Hyperbolic statements only okay when you make them ?

 

The power creep that shared alacrity introduced is immense and needs to be removed for a healthier gamestate. I have no problem with Alacrity existing so long as its only on a personal and never shared basis. Doing so allows for Anet to not only make Chrono unique by allowing it to have greater/stronger Alacrity but also removes some of the balance warping effects that it naturally brings like allowing people to have near permanant uptime on key skills/abilities.

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