Worst designed kit? Has to be bomb kit.

[XenoSpyro.1780]

> @"Arimas.3492" said:

> Kits may be our greatest asset but they definitely need updating. Notably Bomb, Tool and FT cause all of those right now are pretty lame.

All they have to do is make Jugg apply to all kits and most problems go away.

 

Tool auto could use a speed boost too. It's not like the in-game wrench is a 20-pound monkey wrench.

 

 

[Bomboed.5697]

Placing bombs near your feet feels stupid. Rework Bomb kit into a power based long range Rocket launcher, but not ground targeting like Grenades.

[Vagrant.7206]

> @"Tehologist.5841" said:

> I have seen a lot of comments about projectile hate and wanting a ground targeted AoE which is exactly what bomb kit is. I have never tried it personally, how well does kiting someone around a capture point and dropping bombs work? I personally feel bomb kit would be "the bomb" if all the attacks except the auto attack had an evasion frame , would roll out of blast radius when placing them. I am not sure what to do with the auto attack to make it rational and useful.

 

If somebody wises up to you (which takes all of 2 seconds), it's super easy to avoid. Just stand about 350 range away from an enemy with a bomb kit and knock em around with CC, and you're good. In PvP, fire bomb is the only truly threatening skill from the bomb kit, and that's one of the easiest to avoid. The autoattack doesn't stack up against holo autoattack.

 

In vanilla GW2 this was fine (lot less CC flying around, far fewer defensive+offensive skills, support wasn't as powerful, etc), but the powercreep has rendered the kit almost entirely useless in PvP. And grenade kit was always better in PvP anyway -- you didn't have to worry about the delay, just the flight time. You would simply throw ahead of the target.

[Rise.8259]

> @"HnRkLnXqZ.1870" said:

> Now taking a look on our bomb kit everything is a 100 % match. The bombs of our kit resemble the ones which were used in ancient China (see History). All of our bombs have a fuse, which turns a few of your arguments already ad absurdum. That is because there is only one way to get our bombs to detonate = when the fuse runs out. Tactical use as traps, which would require a contact-detonator, is mostly impossible.

 

The only absurd thing here thing is the fact that you think your bad premise has any traction.

In a game where people teleport through stargates, drive around in tanks, and fly in airships, there's no reason to believe they are restricted to a particular kind of simple fuse for anything. So your attempted point falls apart because the premise you based it on was bad to begin with.

 

You're also misusing the logical fallacy "argumentum ad absurdum" (Or "Reductio Ad Absurdum"), and clearly don't understand it's proper meaning:

"Reductio ad absurdum (oris a mode of argumentation that seeks to establish a contention by deriving an absurdity from its denial, thus arguing that a thesis must be accepted because its rejection would be untenable."

"reductio ad absurdum (RAA) is a method of refuting a claim by extending the logic of the opponent's argument to a point of absurdity. Also known as the reductio argument and argumentum ad absurdum."

"Similarly, reductio ad absurdum may refer to a type of argument in which something is proved to be true by showing that the opposite is untrue. Also known as indirect proof, proof by contradiction, and classical reductio ad absurdum."

 

 

> **Land mine**:

 

Everything you said related to that is irrelevant to any of the points I made.

 

>

>. Ofcourse it does look ridiculous if you do that like 2-3 times per second, but the animation does **make sense**.

 

You just proved yourself wrong, contradicting your claim.

It doesn't make sense to squat up and down 3 times per seconds dropping kegs of TNT at your feet to explode instantly.

Since that is the way the bomb kit functions, it never does end up making sense in any context of it's use.

 

>We had our backpacks, suitable for each kit. So we can assume there would also be some protectors/heatshields.

 

It's a backpack. It carries stuff. There's nothing about it that would lead you to believe it contains in it a force field that protects you from kinetic explosions.

 

Your original position was wrong, and the more you contort reason and logic to make up stupid explanations for why the bomb kit is without error you only dig your hole deeper by using even worse arguments than you did originally.

 

 

> The toolkit for example comes with a fully functional shield, which is stowed invisible and cannot be seen until drawn.

 

That's a gameplay concession, not a conceptual issue.

No where is it a part of the core engineer lore that they have time/space distortion units that let them pull gear out of thin air to utilize. Although that might be within the realms of something the asura could make, the design of the engineer is clearly modeled after chaar/human technology.

 

Your claim is also contradicted by the fact that they even had backpacks to begin with. You don't need a backpack to store things you can pull out of the aether.

 

It is mind boggling that you even need these basic points of reason explained to you.

You're either straining very desperately to not admit your original claim was wrong, or you're just really bad at logical thinking.

 

 

> Back in the days when I grew up, we had no fancy graphics, amazing soundtrack or other shiny things. If the game-play was good, the game was good.

 

Logical fallacy, false equivalence.

This is not a game like Qbert or Pacman where conceptualization is irrelevant, and you can throw whatever nonsense you want in there and just focus on the game mechanics.

As an RPG which is premised on reflecting attributes of reality in their world design, the success of their design demands and depends on reflecting certain realities about our world. Although total realism is not the goal, the goal of bringing people into a believable fantasy world demands a certain amount of shared reality and logic with the world we know. The bomb kit strays too far into absurdity to fit with the rest of the logic displayed in the game.

[Shroud.2307]

I rarely use Bomb Kit and I very much agree with the OP. That said, I want to point out that although it is a "melee" kit, it doesn't have to be used as such.

 

The rare times I'm using Bomb Kit (this is speaking from a solo/small scale WvW perspective) I use it defensively rather than offensively. I spend the entire fight running away from my target using things like Rocket Boots and/or Slick Shoes, Jump Shot, Rocket Charge, Hololeap etc. depending on what spec I'm using, constantly forcing my target to take damage while they chase me. It's an awkward way to play but it does work if you're creative. Remember to use Cripple, Immobilize, CC's etc. to ensure they take as much damage as possible while they run after you and make good use of Stealths and combo fields with Smokebomb or other utilities. Just avoid trying to use the kit like a sword at all costs. Running up to people and throwing bombs at their shoes doesn't work unless you're both glassy and they're too stupid to evade.

 

I'm not advocating for people to start using Bomb Kit nor am I saying it's good because again, I totally agree with the OP. It's a pretty crappy kit. I just wanted to state for those unaware that it's best not to use it in the way many here are describing. Bombs do quite a lot of damage but similar to Traps on Dragonhunter, Thief or Ranger, using them as area denial doesn't work against good players. Treat them more like obstacles for your opponent to avoid rather than relying on the hope that they'll fall in to your lap and take a bunch of damage.

[Yannir.4132]

> @"Hoodie.1045" said:

> Concussion Bomb doesn't create an Ethereal field, yet mesmer's Null Field does create an Ethereal field.

 

You do realize that Concussion Bomb as an ethereal field makes absolutely 0 sense in the first place? Should be called Ectoplasm bomb instead to make that logic work.

[Hoodie.1045]

> @"Yannir.4132" said:

> > @"Hoodie.1045" said:

> > Concussion Bomb doesn't create an Ethereal field, yet mesmer's Null Field does create an Ethereal field.

>

> You do realize that Concussion Bomb as an ethereal field makes absolutely 0 sense in the first place? Should be called Ectoplasm bomb instead to make that logic work.

 

Even when the confusion stacks got increased to 7 in the July 10 balance patch, it's still not enough to justify how bad the kit is currently in PvP/WvW, along with the long cooldown and the confusion stacks that last for 3 seconds. A rework on this skill by making it create an Ethereal field with confusion stacks that last longer would be nice.

[Yannir.4132]

> @"Hoodie.1045" said:

> > @"Yannir.4132" said:

> > > @"Hoodie.1045" said:

> > > Concussion Bomb doesn't create an Ethereal field, yet mesmer's Null Field does create an Ethereal field.

> >

> > You do realize that Concussion Bomb as an ethereal field makes absolutely 0 sense in the first place? Should be called Ectoplasm bomb instead to make that logic work.

>

> Even when the confusion stacks got increased to 7 in the July 10 balance patch, it's still not enough to justify how bad the kit is currently in PvP/WvW, along with the long cooldown and the confusion stacks that last for 3 seconds. A rework on this skill by making it create an Ethereal field with confusion stacks that last longer would be nice.

 

Nevermind what it does, I meant that it doesn't work conceptually. What do Concussions have to do with Confusion? But like I said, a name change can fix the issue.

[Chaith.8256]

Or rename it to stink bomb, confusion and a gunk ethereal field would be completely mandatory. :joy:

[Tommo Chocolate.5870]

I totally agree with the OP - I hardly ever use the bomb kit because, to me, everything about it just looks ridiculous. It's not just that the bombs usually explode in your face - when you plant one, it gets smaller when you place it (presumably depending on character scaling?), and then another bomb instantly appears in your hands.

 

There's a different bomb kit given to you by a renown heart NPC - I think it's [this one in Blazeridge Steppes](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Jahr_Duskrend "this one in Blazeridge Steppes") - that allows you to place bombs while in stealth, and detonate them manually. It feels much more satisfying to me, although I don't know how well it would work outside of that particular heart area.

 

To those claiming that not taking damage from your own bombs is somehow a lore decision explained by magic, rather than a gameplay decision - you seem to be forgetting about [Tonn](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Demolitionist_Tonn "Tonn"). If a major plot point hinges on

>! the Pact's best demolitionist getting killed by one of his own bombs exploding,

it's safe to say that it's not magical Tyrian physics protecting an Engineer from their bomb kit explosions.

[Hoodie.1045]

> @"Chaith.8256" said:

> Or rename it to stink bomb, confusion and a gunk ethereal field would be completely mandatory. :joy:

 

I was thinking about adding Gunk on Acid Bomb (Elixir Gun 4). Instead of it dealing power damage only, it now applies conditions on enemies since it's a mostly condition focused weapon.

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

Geez O_O. I give up. There is no point in continuing this madness. Enjoy your victory.

 

 

 

 

[coro.3176]

> @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > @"Tehologist.5841" said:

> > I have seen a lot of comments about projectile hate and wanting a ground targeted AoE which is exactly what bomb kit is. I have never tried it personally, how well does kiting someone around a capture point and dropping bombs work? I personally feel bomb kit would be "the bomb" if all the attacks except the auto attack had an evasion frame , would roll out of blast radius when placing them. I am not sure what to do with the auto attack to make it rational and useful.

>

> If somebody wises up to you (which takes all of 2 seconds), it's super easy to avoid. Just stand about 350 range away from an enemy with a bomb kit and knock em around with CC, and you're good. In PvP, fire bomb is the only truly threatening skill from the bomb kit, and that's one of the easiest to avoid. The autoattack doesn't stack up against holo autoattack.

>

> In vanilla GW2 this was fine (lot less CC flying around, far fewer defensive+offensive skills, support wasn't as powerful, etc), but the powercreep has rendered the kit almost entirely useless in PvP. And grenade kit was always better in PvP anyway -- you didn't have to worry about the delay, just the flight time. You would simply throw ahead of the target.

 

Bomb kit used to be this 900-iq combo field monster of combat options. It held points, it let you escape. It cc'd, blinded, damaged. Nothing really changed in that regard, but as you say, the power creep made it irrelevant.

 

You used to do things like:

* Glue Bomb and Fire Bomb for immob and damage

* Set Big-Ol-Bomb, then Smoke bomb to blind counterattack.

* Big-Ol-Bomb detonates, knocks back enemies, gives you stealth, blast Healing Turret and Rocket Boots(in the direction of the knocked-back enemy) in the smoke field for more stealth.

* Hit them from behind out of stealth with something big (eg. Pry Bar, Blunderbuss, Blowtorch)

 

Now there's not really much point 'cause all you need to do is get vaguely near the enemy and Photon Forge 3,5,1,1,1 oh look everything is dead.

[Peutrifectus.4830]

3 5 4 1 1 1 ;)

[Tehologist.5841]

> @"Peutrifectus.4830" said:

> 3 5 4 1 1 1 ;)

 

He has it right, don’t waste the heat on 4 unless they are running away.

 

[Noha.3749]

Bombkit was fine in vanilla when you could derp around WvW with a direset and annihilate plebs chasing you. (RIP Teldo)

But its really not useful in a PvP perspective anymore. People just ignore the damage, take a slight detour around it etc...

 

I want the bombkit to be less spammable but more impactful.

 

A quick and simple solution would be to increase ALL the cooldowns of the bombkit by quite a bit, make them stronger and cover a larger radius. Maybe even able to hit 10 targets, that would be unique, more fun and strategic compared to spamming bombs all day while looking like a fool.

 

The theme of having endless spammable bombs is kinda funky.... I want fewer bombs with more boom!

 

 

 

 

[Sylosi.6503]

> @"Rise.8259" said:

> > @"Sylosi.6503" said:

> > > @"Rise.8259" said:

> > > The entire concept is completely nonsensical that you would have a battle tactic designed around repeatedly dropping bombs at your feet to kill enemies around you, all while doing no damage to yourself.

> >

> > On that basis half the game is "nonsensical".

>

> Wrong.

> Nothing else in game fits the combined characteristics of the absurdity of the bomb kit's concept and poor execution of design.

> Certainly not half the game.

>

 

No not wrong, if dropping bombs at your feet is nonsensical because you drop bombs at your feet whilst "doing no damage to yourself", then on that "logic" virtually every damage skill in the game is 'nonsensical', because you can fire them through your team mates without doing any damage to them either, you can also stand in any of yours or your teammates damage fields without taking damage, just like bombs.

 

But then you don't do damage to your team mates or your self with skills, because it is a game not a simulation, where gameplay concerns take precedence over realism, the only thing nonsensical is expecting that to be the other way round.

[Rise.8259]

> @"Sylosi.6503" said:

> No not wrong, if dropping bombs at your feet is nonsensical because you drop bombs at your feet whilst "doing no damage to yourself", then on that "logic" virtually every damage skill in the game is 'nonsensical', because you can fire them through your team mates without doing any damage to them either, you can also stand in any of yours or your teammates damage fields without taking damage, just like bombs.

 

I already shot down that bad argument in a previous post:

 

"It's called suicidal, not because you die in PvE, but because the way it's designed forces you to operate as though you were a suicide bomber - running right into the enemy then exploding with a flurry of bombs. Made even worse by the fact that you remain unharmed during this process, so your battle tactic consists of running from one group to another and throwing yourself into them to start exploding all over them. Grenades might have that capability, but you aren't forced by the design to do that in order to use them effectively. That makes the bomb kit's design even more nonsensical that they would expect you to operate this way from the start.

This is conceptual nonsense, bad/lazy design. Worse is that from a game standpoint it brings little to the table other than merely being a more powerful but melee form of grenades/mortar. There's so much missed potential to do something unique and more conceptually fitting with this kit."

 

"As an RPG which is premised on reflecting attributes of reality in their world design, the success of their design demands and depends on reflecting certain realities about our world. Although total realism is not the goal, the goal of bringing people into a believable fantasy world demands a certain amount of shared reality and logic with the world we know. The bomb kit strays too far into absurdity to fit with the rest of the logic displayed in the game."

 

 

There's a key different between the grenade and bomb kit.

The grenade doesn't have self/team damage as a gameplay concession, but it's designed to be thrown at range like a real grenade would. So it's based on a real principle and a real method from the start, but then concessions are made for playability.

The bomb kit is never based on a real principle or method to begin with. Nobody uses bombs this way, because they couldn't, unless they were suicide bombers. It's very premise is absurd and illogical, bad design that makes no attempt to reflect any kind of technological or tactical principle from reality.

It directly contravenes everything logical about reality, abusing the fact that if self damage were not turned off then this entire playstyle would be nonfunctional.

You can't say the same for mortar and grenade, which technically could still be used if self damage were on, just not with the same ease or versatility.

 

 

 

 

[Sylosi.6503]

> @"Rise.8259" said:

> > @"Sylosi.6503" said:

> > No not wrong, if dropping bombs at your feet is nonsensical because you drop bombs at your feet whilst "doing no damage to yourself", then on that "logic" virtually every damage skill in the game is 'nonsensical', because you can fire them through your team mates without doing any damage to them either, you can also stand in any of yours or your teammates damage fields without taking damage, just like bombs.

>

> I already shot down that bad argument in a previous post...

 

Nah, you really didn't. Saying "wrong" and then avoiding that virtually every damage skill in this game is unrealistic as when you use them they either do no damage to yourself or your allies or both, isn't shooting down anything.

 

As for the rest of your post, I can only repeat:

 

"it is a game not a simulation, where gameplay concerns take precedence over realism, the only thing nonsensical is expecting that to be the other way round.".

 

I mean really you are playing a game where you die and 2 seconds later have magically come back to life on a waypoint as if nothing has happened, where you have an infinite supply of bullets, arrows, etc, where you don't get ill, where quests you supposedly complete have mysteriously reset 10 mins later like you are stuck in a time loop, where you can move the same speed in plate mail armour as cloth, where you can "magically" carry enough armour and weapons on your person to fill an armoury (and even with no effect on your movement speed, lol) and where of course you can stand in fire fields (from many skills ;)) or have a bullet shot through your head by an ally with no ill-effect, and you are going on about realism.... /facepalm

 

 

 

[Tiilimon.6094]

I think people who suggest these changes to make bombs into some sort of a mine/satchel charge or a ranged option don't use their engineer as a support character in groups, otherwise they would probably figure out that such changes sound like a very terrible idea.

[Iozeph.5617]

One thing that could make it more fun is to first add the charge system to the Bomb Kit -say two to three max per bomb type- Then make every bomb type capable of executing a blast finisher. Then the healing from Soothing Detonations and might gains from Blasting Zone wouldn't seem so paltry. Especially when you could set off chain blasts just by alternating any bomb with fire bomb, smoke bomb, or Glue Bomb(because the glue field should be given a combo field effect) and then it would be somewhat nearer again to having healing bombs back.

 

If not that then perhaps just change Short Fuse to , 'Precision Deployment' In addition to keeping the cooldown and detonation reductions it would hide bombs(including Big Ol' Bomb) from enemy players. No, it's probably not going to win you many matches against someone who knows what they're up against after the initial surprise. That said, with the amount of power creep out there, professions that make a habit of walking up to you in melee range, bold as brass, should be made to eat one -or ten, even- right in the face just on general principle.

[Jaruselka.5943]

I think the addition of a "Bouncing Betty" type of mine would be awesome. Something that is completely hidden until you trip over it.

[Rise.8259]

> @"Sylosi.6503" said:

> > @"Rise.8259" said:

> > > @"Sylosi.6503" said:

> > > No not wrong, if dropping bombs at your feet is nonsensical because you drop bombs at your feet whilst "doing no damage to yourself", then on that "logic" virtually every damage skill in the game is 'nonsensical', because you can fire them through your team mates without doing any damage to them either, you can also stand in any of yours or your teammates damage fields without taking damage, just like bombs.

>

 

Logical fallacy, argumentum ad nauseam.

Merely repeating your original claim, without supporting that claim, doesn't make it true.

 

The points I quoted in my post already shot down your argument. You haven't dealt with those points directly to show why they might be wrong, but instead merely repeated your original claim that has already been logically shot down.

 

 

 

[Arimas.3492]

Reading through this thread again it seems a lot of comments are getting caught up on the theme of the kit being like a suicide bomber and not talking enough about the gameplay and mechanics of the kit. Theme should come second to gameplay as there's a lot of other fallacies you could bring up that are thrown out because it has to work a certain way for the gameplay.

 

As for the kit, we should be breaking it down to why it's not as effective and seeing what we can do about it. In PvP and WvW it's not that great because the bombs are dropped at your feet and have a delay (even traited) so they are easily avoidable in a fight, except maybe on occasion when you're being chased or kiting someone, but then at that point the opponents would likely not keep chasing you and try something else. And the damage and utility of the kit are not good enough to make up for the downsides of the kit overall.

 

So going off of those weaknesses I'd change the kit to either be similar to mines (which several others have stated as well) so you can set up an area and use it at the time you need rather than trying to make it work when the bombs go off on their own. Or as a basic change the kit could have no delay at all on explosives and a wider range (300 or 360 radius) so landing hits and being a bomber would be more effective at covering area where nades and mortar lack. And then as for the specific skills, glue bomb should add slow on the first tick, concussion bomb should become an ethereal field and pulse confusion over time, and smoke bomb should also pulse weakness to increase the effectiveness against melee users trying to target the bomber. Also it might help to add the effects of the bomb from streamlined kits trait where it places and bomb that pulls nearby targets, that could go on concussive bomb or smoke bomb. For the trait I'd get rid of the delay time aspect and instead make it increase the duration of the fields by 1 or 2 seconds.

 

A general damage buff would also be nice so you'd be incentivized to use the kit over just auto attacks with a weapon.

 

Another idea could be to make the trait increase the target cap to 10 to be a go to for WvW groups.

 

As for PvE idk where the kit stands because I don't PvE.

 

 

[Rise.8259]

> @"Arimas.3492" said:

> Reading through this thread again it seems a lot of comments are getting caught up on the theme of the kit being like a suicide bomber and not talking enough about the gameplay and mechanics of the kit.

 

If you read more carefully, you'd see that is because that was the topic and point of this thread.

 

There comes a point where absurdity in thematic design detracts from the quality of the gameplay experience.

 

It would be like having the rifle turret be shaped like a unicorn that shoots doves out if it's eyes to reduce enemies to piles of green goo, on an engineer character. Nothing about this makes sense and therefore fails to fulfills a proper fantasy, and thus isn't fun to play as - it's just stupid.

 

Creating a suicide bomber kit for the engineer that also makes him immortal is equally as absurd, anti-thematic, and fantasy breaking.

 

It's also bad gameplay as a design. It's boring and one dimensional as a style. Run up and teabag your enemies repeatedly, then collect their loot.

Bad thematic design often leads to bad gameplay design in games. If they actually did try to constrain themselves more to the reality of what an engineer might do with timed or detonated explosives, you'd end up with far more interesting gameplay options. Creativity comes out of limitations like that.