Worst designed kit? Has to be bomb kit.

Fipmip.7219 · September 10, 2018

i dont mind the suicide bomber feel because with the PoF expansion I can dress up like one and scream religious one-liners as I sprint full tilt into people clutching a dubious looking IED. The bomb kit imo should focus on being a power based kit, with 11111 spam being a baseline dps output, and then 2-5 acting as a rotation containing blast or possibly physical projectile (shrapnel style) finishers and combo fields, that ultimately act as a burst of increased dps if rotated correctly.

Arimas.3492 · September 10, 2018

> @"Rise.8259" said:

> > @"Arimas.3492" said:

> > Reading through this thread again it seems a lot of comments are getting caught up on the theme of the kit being like a suicide bomber and not talking enough about the gameplay and mechanics of the kit.

>

> If you read more carefully, you'd see that is because that was the topic and point of this thread.

>

> There comes a point where absurdity in thematic design detracts from the quality of the gameplay experience.

>

> It would be like having the rifle turret be shaped like a unicorn that shoots doves out if it's eyes to reduce enemies to piles of green goo, on an engineer character. Nothing about this makes sense and therefore fails to fulfills a proper fantasy, and thus isn't fun to play as - it's just stupid.

>

> Creating a suicide bomber kit for the engineer that also makes him immortal is equally as absurd, anti-thematic, and fantasy breaking.

>

> It's also bad gameplay as a design. It's boring and one dimensional as a style. Run up and teabag your enemies repeatedly, then collect their loot.

> Bad thematic design often leads to bad gameplay design in games. If they actually did try to constrain themselves more to the reality of what an engineer might do with timed or detonated explosives, you'd end up with far more interesting gameplay options. Creativity comes out of limitations like that.

>

If the theme is a major problem as you're stating then a lot of the game isn't good. This thread really only exists because the kit itself isn't good gameplay wise. If the kit was amazing this thread wouldn't have been made. I read the OP but I ignored the suicide bomber theme they talked about because that's not the real issue, the kits effectiveness is the real issue, and many comments keep talking about the theme of the kit rather than the effectiveness of it in game.

In EG kit which is one of the best on engineer you don't see people complaining about how Fumigate doesn't make sense when you're spraying green gross looking acid that poisons enemies but cures conditions on allies, or how glob shot shoots glue that cripples enemies but makes allies go faster. Both of those make no sense but are ignored because the skills are decent/good and effective in gameplay.

Need to keep talking about the actual issues with the kit's effectiveness and not get caught up with "I place bombs at my feet but don't take damage/feels like suicide bomber" stuff.

Rise.8259 · September 10, 2018

> @"Arimas.3492" said:

> If the theme is a major problem as you're stating then a lot of the game isn't good.

I already gave many reasons why the bomb kit is ** uniquely ** and excessively bad and absurd in it's design and theme.

Your claim is wrong, and you don't even attempt to substantiate it. You have failed to demonstrate why we should believe that the bomb kit is no worse than most of the game.

>This thread really only exists because the kit itself isn't good gameplay wise.

I created the thread and I told you why it existed. That hasn't changed.

Don't come in here and arrogantly pretend you know why I created this thread without any kind of reasoning or proof. You invented a fantasy in your mind based on bad assumptions instead of actually reading and understanding what I wrote and why I wrote it.

The truth is I don't play things that are stupid themes just because they are powerful gameplay. I never have in MMOs and never will. I go for what is thematically good and interesting to me and try to make the gameplay work from there. I am glad the bomb kit isn't the most powerful PvE or PvP option available, in it's current absurd form, because I'd never want to play the absurd teabagging suicide bomber theme.

I am therefore definitive proof that your claim, and the assumptions you base your claim on, are wrong. You don't understand the full range of what people care about in MMO games, so you make bad conclusions based on bad assumptions.

Arimas.3492 · September 10, 2018

> @"Rise.8259" said:

> > @"Arimas.3492" said:

> > If the theme is a major problem as you're stating then a lot of the game isn't good.

>

> I already gave many reasons why the bomb kit is ** uniquely ** and excessively bad and absurd in it's design and theme.

>

> Your claim is wrong, and you don't even attempt to substantiate it. You have failed to demonstrate why we should believe that the bomb kit is no worse than most of the game.

>

Just because you disagree doesn't mean you can claim people aren't explaining their arguments, I gave other examples of similar issues you're having with bomb kit but you're ignoring them because it doesn't fit your narrative

> >This thread really only exists because the kit itself isn't good gameplay wise.

>

> I created the thread and I told you why it existed. That hasn't changed.

> Don't come in here and arrogantly pretend you know why I created this thread without any kind of reasoning or proof. You invented a fantasy in your mind based on bad assumptions instead of actually reading and understanding what I wrote and why I wrote it.

>

I don't know what fantasy you're talking about but I commented because I agree bomb kit isn't in a good spot gameplay wise, not because of a silly "oh I'm a suicide bomber" theme issue. That's a personal issue on your end, not a thing that needs fixing, the gameplay balance is what needs addressing and I figured that was the point of this but apparently you only want to change the kit because it doesn't fit your fantasy of being the Engineer class even though the theme has been fine for 6 years.

> The truth is I don't play things that are stupid themes just because they are powerful gameplay. I never have in MMOs and never will. I go for what is thematically good and interesting to me and try to make the gameplay work from there. I am glad the bomb kit isn't the most powerful PvE or PvP option available, in it's current absurd form, because I'd never want to play the absurd teabagging suicide bomber theme.

>

So basically your whole issue is a personal one because you don't like the theme of the kit, not because its ineffective. Some people like how the kit works as it is but would like it to see buffs, so according to you those people are just wrong and have no opinion.

> I am therefore definitive proof that your claim, and the assumptions you base your claim on, are wrong. You don't understand the full range of what people care about in MMO games, so you make bad conclusions based on bad assumptions.

>

Claiming "definitive proof" doesn't make it so. You're being delusional and shutting down anyone who disagrees because they aren't part of your fantasy.

Rise.8259 · September 10, 2018

> > > @"Arimas.3492" said:

> Just because you disagree doesn't mean you can claim people aren't explaining their arguments, I gave other examples of similar issues you're having with bomb kit but you're ignoring them because it doesn't fit your narrative

Logical fallacy, hand waving.

You're not addressing the points I made but trying to pretend you did.

I gave very specific reasons why the bomb kit is uniquely and excessively absurd in comparison to other things in the engineer kit, and you never disproved any of my reasoning with points of your own.

You have also offered not a single piece of evidence to support your claim that the game is full of things that are just as bad as the bomb kit, but you commit the logical fallacy of argumentum ad assertion by believing your claim doesn't need to be supported with facts or reasons.

> > I don't know what fantasy you're talking about

Slow down to comprehend posts for once, before firing off responses, then you might stop being so confused.

"The truth is I don't play things that are stupid themes just because they are powerful gameplay. I never have in MMOs and never will."

"You invented a fantasy in your mind based on bad assumptions instead of actually reading and understanding what I wrote and why I wrote it."

You created a fantasy in your head that says people only care about power level. You had no facts to back up your assumption, and your assumption was wrong. Therefore your conclusion (that the thematics of the bomb kits are irrelevent because people only care about power level) was wrong because it was based on wrong assumptions.

>> So basically your whole issue is a personal one because you don't like the theme of the kit, not because its ineffective.

Welcome to the thread, I'm glad you could get caught up to understand what the point of this thread is.

Of course, you're also completely wrong to try to paint this as merely a personal preference on my part. There are very solid objections to the design of the bomb kit on the grounds of sound design principles, of which I already outlined many in this thread (There's no sense in repeating them here if you can't learn to read and comprehend a thread before firing off whatever nonsense pops into your mind). If you read it, you can see the bomb kit is objectively a bad and lazy design based on logical reasoning.

> > Claiming "definitive proof" doesn't make it so.

You don't understand how logic works.

You make claim A: "Nobody cares about the thematics of kits, only whether or not they are powerful".

I disprove your claim with evidence B: "I actually care more about thematics than peak performance, and always have in MMOs".

You made a blanket universal claim without reservations, and all it takes for your blanket claim to be completely disproven is for one person to prove your claim to not be universal. So the only thing you can claim with any certainty at this point is that YOU don't care about thematics, so don't overstep your bounds and pull assumptions out of your ass that you don't have any data or reasoning to back up.

Arimas.3492 · September 10, 2018

> @"Rise.8259" said:

> > > > @"Arimas.3492" said:

> > Just because you disagree doesn't mean you can claim people aren't explaining their arguments, I gave other examples of similar issues you're having with bomb kit but you're ignoring them because it doesn't fit your narrative

>

> Logical fallacy, hand waving.

> You're not addressing the points I made but trying to pretend you did.

Even though I gave clear examples of how your own logic contradicts itself, you still don't see what the issue is. But if we want to go that way then I'll directly quote your (now edited but you forgot to edit your other comments) posts.

"It's called suicidal, not because you die in PvE, but because the way it's designed forces you to operate as though you were a suicide bomber - running right into the enemy then exploding with a flurry of bombs. Made even worse by the fact that you remain unharmed during this process, so your battle tactic consists of running from one group to another and throwing yourself into them to start exploding all over them."

Was the first line of your original post (before editing it) and already you contradicted yourself. You claim that the issue is not that the kit doesn't damage yourself but that the design is around running into the enemy and blowing them up with the bombs, but then you move on to say "made even worse by the fact you remain unharmed during this process". So is not taking damage from your own bombs the issue or not? If we're talking theme here then yeah from a reality standpoint it doesn't make sense, but this is a video game where real world logic doesn't work. Let's just take the quote and replace it with a similar idea.

"It's called suicidal, not because you die in PvE, but because the way it's designed forces you to operate as though you were a suicide swordsman - running right into the enemy then slashing with a flurry of sword flicks. ~~Made even worse by the fact that you remain unharmed during this process~~, so your battle tactic consists of running from one group to another and throwing yourself into them to start slashing all over them." So does this mean that using a sword is suicidal? Because you have to get up close and personal with enemies in order to use the sword and they can deal damage to you.

>

> I gave very specific reasons why the bomb kit is uniquely and excessively absurd in comparison to other things in the engineer kit, and you never disproved any of my reasoning with points of your own.

Yes in your original post (now edited) you bring up quite a few ideas of what a cooler bomb kit would be like. Those aren't exactly points and that's also not any part of the discussion we're currently having in relation to you disapproving with the theme of the kit. The theme currently is pretty inspired by what's known as the "time bomb" which is fairly common in several media, but for gameplay purposes it wouldn't exactly work out or be fun if every skill took 30 seconds to go off now would it? So they kept that theme but made it realistic in a gameplay sense and made a 1 second delay, so it can work for gameplay. This argument is a direct counter to your quote: "The bomb kit is never based on a real principle or method to begin with. Nobody uses bombs this way, because they couldn't, unless they were suicide bombers. It's very premise is absurd and illogical, bad design that makes no attempt to reflect any kind of technological or tactical principle from reality."

> You have also offered not a single piece of evidence to support your claim that the game is full of things that are just as bad as the bomb kit, but you commit the logical fallacy of argumentum ad assertion by believing your claim doesn't need to be supported with facts or reasons.

Well I don't know if YOUR reading comprehension is lacking, but if you read through my posts you'll see I give examples relating to your theme theory and how it doesn't make any sense why bomb kit is a problem but other skills are not. Just because I didn't spell it out for you (which really the examples didn't need it) doesn't mean its not there, again you are just choosing to ignore your own logic when used against you.

>

> > > I don't know what fantasy you're talking about

>

> Slow down to comprehend posts for once, before firing off responses, then you might stop being so confused.

>

> "The truth is I don't play things that are stupid themes just because they are powerful gameplay. I never have in MMOs and never will."

> "You invented a fantasy in your mind based on bad assumptions instead of actually reading and understanding what I wrote and why I wrote it."

>

> You created a fantasy in your head that says people only care about power level. You had no facts to back up your assumption, and your assumption was wrong. Therefore your conclusion (that the thematics of the bomb kits are irrelevent because people only care about power level) was wrong because it was based on wrong assumptions.

Nowhere did I say "people only care about power level" and I didn't ignore the theme because the theme that exists currently is what's implied and I even gave examples of my own on how to make the current kit better without changing the theme. Again just because i never directly said the word 'theme' doesn't mean I completely and utterly am against all themes and only care about power. IMO the current theme and mechanics of the kit are fine, but it needs a buff. While a rework would be really nice to something like many people suggested (mine kit etc) its most likely not going to happen. And not sure where you're pulling "facts" from but your entire post is your personal opinion on the kit, literally no facts present.

>

> >> So basically your whole issue is a personal one because you don't like the theme of the kit, not because its ineffective.

>

> Welcome to the thread, I'm glad you could get caught up to understand what the point of this thread is.

>

> Of course, you're also completely wrong to try to paint this as merely a personal preference on my part. There are very solid objections to the design of the bomb kit on the grounds of sound design principles, of which I already outlined many in this thread (There's no sense in repeating them here if you can't learn to read and comprehend a thread before firing off whatever nonsense pops into your mind). If you read it, you can see the bomb kit is objectively a bad and lazy design based on logical reasoning.

Trying to impose logical reasoning in a game where a plant person can throw fireballs without scorching themselves or where even a normal class like engineers can not blow themselves to high heavens when tossing explosives on their feet makes your entire argument hold no water. The design of the kit isn't lazy its just what they adapted from their inspirations to make it work for the game, its been like that for 6 years and the kit has seen good times and bad.

>

> > > Claiming "definitive proof" doesn't make it so.

> You don't understand how logic works.

> You make claim A: "Nobody cares about the thematics of kits, only whether or not they are powerful".

> I disprove your claim with evidence B: "I actually care more about thematics than peak performance, and always have in MMOs".

Again nowhere did I state or even imply that "no one cares about the thematics only power". I simply was talking about the effectiveness of the kit and changes that could be made while not addressing the theme, because most of my suggestion about buffing the kit already implies the theme is the same.

>

> You made a blanket universal claim without reservations, and all it takes for your blanket claim to be completely disproven is for one person to prove your claim to not be universal. So the only thing you can claim with any certainty at this point is that YOU don't care about thematics, so don't overstep your bounds and pull assumptions out of your kitten that you don't have any data or reasoning to back up.

Again, using your own words against you "You made a blanket universal claim without reservations, and all it takes for your blanket claim to be completely disproven is for one person to prove your claim to not be universal" There are people in this post who disagree with you and your "suicidal bomber" personal theme issue but you shoot them down and imply they are stupid for commenting because your _oh so mighty and all-knowing_ personal view of the kit is a solid fact (when its not).

Not going to lie maybe we are stupid for disagreeing with you since no amount of sense and even using your own logic against you can make you see where you're wrong. Thank you and have a nice day.

Peutrifectus.4830 · September 11, 2018

bit pedantic. I like the bomb kit. It's a fun melee weapon set.

Ivantreil.3092 · September 11, 2018

Just a quick reminder to not derail this post saying how terrible the weapon is, just a reminder that this kit has been in the meta raid easily 3+ years top.

Terrible design doesn't equal terrible performance.

And from a design standpoint, the design isn't terrible, it's just simply bland, all the skill deal the same animation and all of them deal damage the same way, and aoe overtime damage dealer.

If you put it in that perspective, you could easily say that the nade kit and the mortar kit are also terrible, all the same animations for all their skills, all the same danage output results.

Tehologist.5841 · September 11, 2018

It is good because raid bosses just stand there and face tank the damage?

Ardid.7203 · September 11, 2018

> @"Ivantreil.3092" said:

> Just a quick reminder to not derail this post saying how terrible the weapon is, just a reminder that this kit has been in the meta raid easily 3+ years top.

It does the raid work so well engies without bombs have a very hard time being accepted, yet not good enough to make engie really needed.

> Terrible design doesn't equal terrible performance.

True. A garbage bag can perform kite well keeping you warm. It can be much more effective at hiding your face than an expensive pair of shades, too.

> And from a design standpoint, the design isn't terrible, it's just simply bland, all the skill deal the same animation and all of them deal damage the same way, and aoe overtime damage dealer.

Bland is indeed one of the worst insults you can say about a designers work. The bomb kit is bland. Terribly, agonizingly, full of cringes, bland.

> If you put it in that perspective, you could easily say that the nade kit and the mortar kit are also terrible, all the same animations for all their skills, all the same danage output results.

True. Nade kit and mortar kits are also terrible, bland, lazy and boring designs.

Artaz.3819 · September 11, 2018

When the heal from explosions trait was removed, it became a dead duck tied to doing damage only (versus hybrid damage/healing) but the kit doesn't actually do that much damage since damage is divided autoattack direct base bomb 1 spam and condi abilities on 2-5 which are minor utility at best. Big 'Ol Bomb is still strong but has to do with the radius size, damage multiplier, and CC... where's the Daze CC on Concussion bomb?

Then Anet adds the Ammo system and forgets the kits that actually should have use them mechanically... Tie ammo to the 2-5 skills. And all recharges on all the bombs but the Fire Bomb are just crazy too long.

Or alternatively, just give Blast finisher to 1 skill.

Rise.8259 · September 12, 2018

> @"Arimas.3492" said:

>Even though I gave clear examples of how your own logic contradicts itself,

Logical fallacy, argumentum ad assertion.

Merely claiming you disproved by logic doesn't mean you did.

Quote what you think did, and why, because it's not there.

>you contradicted yourself.

That word, you keep using it, but it doesn't mean what you seem to think it does.

Let's examine why:

> You claim that the issue is not that the kit doesn't damage yourself but that the design is around running into the enemy and blowing them up with the bombs, but then you move on to say "made even worse by the fact you remain unharmed during this process. So is not taking damage from your own bombs the issue or not?

You failed to comprehend the qualifier "made even worse by".

The central issue is still the stupidity of the design. Which is made worse by the game design which accentuates how stupid of a design this is for a combat tactic.

It would be a stupid design for a combat tactic and gameplay design to consist of running up to your enemy and dropping bombs point blank that damaged or killed you.

It is even more stupid of a game design when you don't even model that kind of limitation, so the tactic consists of humping up against the enemy with superspeed squats while you explode against them repeatedly.

Don't be so arrogant to the point where you accuse other people of having wrong arguments just because you lack the patience to read them, or the reading comprehension to understand them.

>If we're talking theme here then yeah from a reality standpoint it doesn't make sense, but this is a video game where real world logic doesn't work.

Logical fallacy, argumentum ad nauseam.

Merely repeating your claim, without any new sound argumentation, doesn't make it any more true.

I already shot down your claim with several posts, and you had no counter to them:

"This is not a game like Qbert or Pacman where conceptualization is irrelevant, and you can throw whatever nonsense you want in there and just focus on the game mechanics.

As an RPG which is premised on reflecting attributes of reality in their world design, the success of their design demands and depends on reflecting certain realities about our world. Although total realism is not the goal, the goal of bringing people into a believable fantasy world demands a certain amount of shared reality and logic with the world we know. The bomb kit strays too far into absurdity to fit with the rest of the logic displayed in the game."

"There comes a point where absurdity in thematic design detracts from the quality of the gameplay experience.

It would be like having the rifle turret be shaped like a unicorn that shoots doves out if it's eyes to reduce enemies to piles of green goo, on an engineer character. Nothing about this makes sense and therefore fails to fulfills a proper fantasy, and thus isn't fun to play as - it's just stupid.

Creating a suicide bomber kit for the engineer that also makes him immortal is equally as absurd, anti-thematic, and fantasy breaking.

It's also bad gameplay as a design. It's boring and one dimensional as a style. Run up and teabag your enemies repeatedly, then collect their loot.

Bad thematic design often leads to bad gameplay design in games. If they actually did try to constrain themselves more to the reality of what an engineer might do with timed or detonated explosives, you'd end up with far more interesting gameplay options. Creativity comes out of limitations like that."

Rise.8259 · September 12, 2018

> @"Arimas.3492" said:

> Yes in your original post (now edited) you bring up quite a few ideas of what a cooler bomb kit would be like.

There's nothing in the edit's that changes any of the arguments I made, so don't pretend like your poor reading comprehension and sloppy logical thinking has an excuse.

>Those aren't exactly points and that's also not any part of the discussion we're currently having in relation to you disapproving with the theme of the kit. The theme currently is pretty inspired by what's known as the "time bomb" which is fairly common in several media, but for gameplay purposes it wouldn't exactly work out or be fun if every skill took 30 seconds to go off now would it? So they kept that theme but made it realistic in a gameplay sense and made a 1 second delay, so it can work for gameplay. This argument is a direct counter to your quote: "The bomb kit is never based on a real principle or method to begin with. Nobody uses bombs this way, because they couldn't, unless they were suicide bombers. It's very premise is absurd and illogical, bad design that makes no attempt to reflect any kind of technological or tactical principle from reality."

You're a sloppy thinker because you haven't considered the rammifications of what you're saying:

A time bomb by definition is timed because it has to be set by hand and you need time to get away from it. Variations of this are the mine and remote bomb.

They also tend to require either time to set up or preparation of an area before battle.

If your kit based off timed/remote bombs doesn't even attempt to model these characteristics, then you've failed.

Those defining characteristics are not reflected whatsoever in the bomb kit. Which is precisely why it is a thematic failure on every level.

And they have failed so hard that they've made one of the most ridiculous looking and absurd concepts I've ever seen in a game like this.

It would be like having a grenade kit that you don't ever throw, and it doesn't actually explode, but you just run up to the enemy and bash them over the head with a grenade looking object. Ok, you might say it's based off the concept of a grenade, but it's clearly a failure from a design standpoint because you have failed to incorporate key aspects of what makes a grenade functionally a grenade into your gameplay and tactics.

So all you've done is proven my point by highlighting the failure of the developers to make a logical connection between what the bomb kit is suppose to be based on and what you actually do with it in game.

You were so focused on merely the superficial fact that it looks like a bomb and explodes that you weren't capable of analyzing the deeper gameplay thematics about what makes a timed/remote explosive different from other explosives.

Rise.8259 · September 12, 2018

> @"Arimas.3492" said:

>if you read through my posts you'll see I give examples relating to your theme theory and how it doesn't make any sense why bomb kit is a problem but other skills are not.

Logical fallacy, argumentum ad assertion, and argumentum ad nauseam.

Merely claiming you are correct doesn't make it true, and repeating that claim doesn't make it true either.

You still have yet to produce any evidence that proves your claim to be true about the game supposedly being full of bad thematic designs that are just as bad as the bomb kit.

>Nowhere did I say "people only care about power level"

>....

>This thread really only exists because the kit itself isn't good gameplay wise. If the kit was amazing this thread wouldn't have been made. I read the OP but I ignored the suicide bomber theme they talked about because that's not the real issue, the kits effectiveness is the real issue, and many comments keep talking about the theme of the kit rather than the effectiveness of it in game."

There is no other way to read your words. Stop backpedaling and own up to your mistake.

>And not sure where you're pulling "facts" from but your entire post is your personal opinion on the kit, literally no facts present.

As I already said, you made a claim you can't prove. You claimed that people only care about the bad thematic design of the bomb kit because it's underpowered.

You have no evidence to back up your claim, you just pulled it out of your ass.

I disproved your claim by citing the fact that I care more about the thematic than the power level, and the power level had no role in my making this thread.

You seem to having a lot of trouble logically processing basic stuff like this. You don't realize that you made a claim. You don't know what a fact is, or how to recognize it. And you don't know what it means to either support your claim with facts or recognize when a fact has disproved your claim.

No wonder you're having so much trouble trying to engage in logical discourse. You don't know what logic is or how to use it.

Rise.8259 · September 12, 2018

> @"Arimas.3492" said:

>Trying to impose logical reasoning in a game where a plant person can throw fireballs without scorching themselves or where even a normal class like engineers can not blow themselves to high heavens when tossing explosives on their feet makes your entire argument hold no water.

Logical fallacy, argumentum ad nauseam.

You're merely repeating what you've already said before, but I have already directly addressed your argument and countered it with sound logical reasoning.

You have failed to deal with my counters, but merely go back to repeating a claim that was already countered:

My arguments established the truth that there are limits on design, as they attempt to anchor the game to aspects of reality to allow for players to connect with it (as any fantasy does), but also limits in the sense of being consistent with their demonstrated design philosophy. And why the bomb kit fails in both regards.

That is why your argument is invalid when you attempt to claim that anything goes just because. No fantasy world is ever successfully designed without some kind of limitations and grounding to the reality we know.

"This is not a game like Qbert or Pacman where conceptualization is irrelevant, and you can throw whatever nonsense you want in there and just focus on the game mechanics.

As an RPG which is premised on reflecting attributes of reality in their world design, the success of their design demands and depends on reflecting certain realities about our world. Although total realism is not the goal, the goal of bringing people into a believable fantasy world demands a certain amount of shared reality and logic with the world we know. The bomb kit strays too far into absurdity to fit with the rest of the logic displayed in the game."

"There comes a point where absurdity in thematic design detracts from the quality of the gameplay experience.

It would be like having the rifle turret be shaped like a unicorn that shoots doves out if it's eyes to reduce enemies to piles of green goo, on an engineer character. Nothing about this makes sense and therefore fails to fulfills a proper fantasy, and thus isn't fun to play as - it's just stupid.

Creating a suicide bomber kit for the engineer that also makes him immortal is equally as absurd, anti-thematic, and fantasy breaking.

It's also bad gameplay as a design. It's boring and one dimensional as a style. Run up and teabag your enemies repeatedly, then collect their loot.

Bad thematic design often leads to bad gameplay design in games. If they actually did try to constrain themselves more to the reality of what an engineer might do with timed or detonated explosives, you'd end up with far more interesting gameplay options. Creativity comes out of limitations like that."

"A time bomb by definition is timed because it has to be set by hand and you need time to get away from it. Variations of this are the mine and remote bomb.

They also tend to require either time to set up or preparation of an area before battle.

If your kit based off timed/remote bombs doesn't even attempt to model these characteristics, then you've failed.

Those defining characteristics are not reflected whatsoever in the bomb kit. Which is precisely why it is a thematic failure on every level.

And they have failed so hard that they've made one of the most ridiculous looking and absurd concepts I've ever seen in a game like this.

It would be like having a grenade kit that you don't ever throw, and it doesn't actually explode, but you just run up to the enemy and bash them over the head with a grenade looking object. Ok, you might say it's based off the concept of a grenade, but it's clearly a failure from a design standpoint because you have failed to incorporate key aspects of what makes a grenade functionally a grenade into your gameplay and tactics.

So all you've done is proven my point by highlighting the failure of the developers to make a logical connection between what the bomb kit is suppose to be based on and what you actually do with it in game.

You were so focused on merely the superficial fact that it looks like a bomb and explodes that you weren't capable of analyzing the deeper gameplay thematics about what makes a timed/remote explosive different from other explosives."

"The central issue is still the stupidity of the design. Which is made worse by the game design which accentuates how stupid of a design this is for a combat tactic.

It would be a stupid design for a combat tactic and gameplay design to consist of running up to your enemy and dropping bombs point blank that damaged or killed you.

It is even more stupid of a game design when you don't even model that kind of limitation, so the tactic consists of humping up against the enemy with superspeed squats while you explode against them repeatedly."

>Again, using your own words against you "You made a blanket universal claim without reservations, and all it takes for your blanket claim to be completely disproven is for one person to prove your claim to not be universal" There are people in this post who disagree with you and your "suicidal bomber" personal theme issue but you shoot them down and imply they are stupid for commenting because your oh so mighty and all-knowing personal view of the kit is a solid fact (when its not).

Logical fallacy, red herring.

You didn't address the point I made, but instead are trying to veer off in a different direction with your response as a distraction from the fact that you can't answer the point I made.

The fact that you made a universal claim without reservations remains as an unchallenged fact.

And the fact that I disproved your claim also remains as an unchallenged fact.

Whether or not people disagree with me about the theme issue of the bomb kit is completely irrelevant to the point you are trying to answer, wherein you claimed that nobody really cared about the bomb kit thematics and I then proved your claim wrong.

Rise.8259 · September 12, 2018

> @"Ivantreil.3092" said:

> And from a design standpoint, the design isn't terrible, it's just simply bland, all the skill deal the same animation and all of them deal damage the same way, and aoe overtime damage dealer.

>

> If you put it in that perspective, you could easily say that the nade kit and the mortar kit are also terrible, all the same animations for all their skills, all the same danage output results.

The grenade kit isn't the most interesting so I wouldn't consider them a great success from a gameplay standpoint...

However, from a thematic standpoint, at least, the grenade hits the key points of what you expect - You throw it. It explodes. It's not unreasonable that you'd be able to throw a lot of them in a short period of time either. It's not reasonable that you would have different kinds of grenades to throw at once.

That's why the bomb kit completely fails and is objectively bad from a design standpoint. It's based on a real concept, but it fails to reflect any of the key points of what you would associate this weapon's tactical use with.

It's just a bigger point blank grenade, but such a weapon concept doesn't exist and never would for obvious reasons. This is a huge oversight of bad design considering that every other engineer weapon and tool is modeled after a concept that has some grounding in existing technology and weapons.

The bomb kit has no preparation, no setup, and no planning - all of which you would need for this weapon to be true to form.

This is an example of how trying to be more true to reality in your thematics results in more interesting and creative gameplay design. Good game design often starts with good thematics.

Just turning it into a giant point blank grenade is the epitome of lazy uncreative design.

Fipmip.7219 · September 13, 2018

unbelievable pretentiousness on OP's part, but all that said I do like the original proposal to turn bomb kit into a kind of big damage setup. Thing is though, is that Anet have been making a few of those lately, with massive one shot potential spikes coming from some classes, sometimes from stealth, and all to community backlash. If turning bombs into a kind of trap is to be worth playing the bomb kit for, it would probably need to be on the same level as these new age builds that have been getting so much hate lately. Either that, or the new builds get nerfed and leave the bomb as the only potential one shot spiker (and maybe DE) in the game, and a difficult one to pull off at that. That could be a scenario i'd be okay with, but until then bomb kit should either stay the same with a few tweaks or be changed some other way.

Ivantreil.3092 · September 13, 2018

> @"Fipmip.7219" said:

> unbelievable pretentiousness on OP's part, but all that said I do like the original proposal to turn bomb kit into a kind of big damage setup. Thing is though, is that Anet have been making a few of those lately, with massive one shot potential spikes coming from some classes, sometimes from stealth, and all to community backlash. If turning bombs into a kind of trap is to be worth playing the bomb kit for, it would probably need to be on the same level as these new age builds that have been getting so much hate lately. Either that, or the new builds get nerfed and leave the bomb as the only potential one shot spiker (and maybe DE) in the game, and a difficult one to pull off at that. That could be a scenario i'd be okay with, but until then bomb kit should either stay the same with a few tweaks or be changed some other way.

Well, we had a shady time where this kit was single handedly responsible of carrying the remotely concept of playing a competitive power based setup on Engi, after the quad kit burst build simply didn't cut for raids standards, all thanks to the hilarious damage coefficient of this kit's aa.

Spam aa, and bam, competent dps, just run around the boss with the seaweed salad (rip), modifier like if you were playing "La rueda de San Miguel".

It was the most dumbest and eaisest Engi build i ever played in my life.

Well, my point is, you can get an idea how easy could this kit be overtuned, if all what engi needed before was only a degenerate aa.

Rise.8259 · September 13, 2018

> @"Zex Anthon.8673" said:

>You can argue the realism of the bomb kit until the cows come home, but at the end of the day this is an mmorpg not a survival rpg. If you want that level of realism go play ARMA or KCD.

That bad argument has already been disproven and shot down multiple times in this thread.

Read and comprehend before commenting.