I still dislike Renengade

[castlemanic.3198]

> @Kuulpb.5412 said:

> What I was getting at was - If renegade was such a big deal in that the charr renegade gorea channels Kalla, why wouldn't rytlock, who taught them use a shortbow too? since he would have had to teach them to access kalla, meaning he had a choice of basically Any revenant weapon, or shortbow. And he chose Greatsword. Yes NPCs are not limited like we are, but that doesn't mean every npc can wield every weapon Rytlock as a warrior never wielded a greatsword, as mentioned it was sword/pistol, (which could be argued it was the charr hidden pistol racial, just out forever), So Him wielding a Pistol I would have understood, but greatsword just seems to out there.

>

 

Throughout Heart of Thorns, Rytlock has expressly been a herald, but despite his channeling Glint, he never picked up a shield, which is the herald weapon. Considering Rytlock had *a personal relationship with glint*, by your logic, Rytlock should have been using a shield throughout heart of thorns. He has a second arm to use, a space for an offhand that wouldn't even clash with wielding Sohothin, but Rytlock instead wielded only Sohothin, only a one handed sword and not an off-hand weapon which he has the space to use.

 

So let me ask you the reverse, considering the above, *why would Rytlock use a shortbow if he didn't even pick up a shield as a herald*?

 

One more piece of lore to tie into what someone suggested above:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_Dwarf_Stance

" Jalis Ironhammer: Impressive. You fight like a natural born dwarf.

: I learned from the best."

 

Gorea more than likely learned how to use a bow from Kalla herself, rather than from Rytlock. As I mentioned before, Rytlock taught some charr how to channel the mists as a revenant and likely started with Kalla as a reliable legend that all charr can trust, so that teaching them other legends like Shiro and Mallyx wouldn't immediately start a riot, and so learning the bow specifically from Kalla isn't unreasonable. As the devs have mentioned in that blogpost:

 

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/hidden-arcana-role-playing-the-revenant/

 

"A revenant’s legends are not merely echoes of the past but are fully sentient, with opinions and personalities of their own."

 

Meaning they are entirely capable of communicating and learning from the legends themselves.

 

Like Drax said, as Rytlock was a warrior before he was a revenant, it's entirely possible that he fell back on his warrior training.

[Kuulpb.5412]

I would argue that - He would need a weapon - End - Sohothin was a weapon, a one handed sword, so he could fight, He then could have picked shortbow as that is an attacking weapon, and poF related, but instead he had a greatsword.

 

Edit - yes it is possible he fell back onto warrior training, if Anet said this was the case it'd solve everything, However Only kalla and Possibly ventari would teach their weapons, Shiro would most likely be angry at being bound and mallyx would be a gorilla.

[castlemanic.3198]

> @Kuulpb.5412 said:

> I would argue that - He would need a weapon - End - Sohothin was a weapon, a one handed sword, so he could fight, He then could have picked shortbow as that is an attacking weapon, and poF related, but instead he had a greatsword.

>

> Edit - yes it is possible he fell back onto warrior training, if Anet said this was the case it'd solve everything, However Only kalla and Possibly ventari would teach their weapons, Shiro would most likely be angry at being bound and mallyx would be a gorilla.

 

So basically, you just wanted it to be thematically consistent with the expansion. That's your gripe with the situation, it doesn't relate back to the revenant PoF elite spec but instead he chose a greatsword for what is, ultimately, an inconsequential scene in the game, one that will probably never be repeated in the game.

 

We've answered this time and time again, NPCs aren't beholden to the restrictions of the player classes, there has been several examples, one of which is Rytlock himself. There's no NEED to explain that he fell back on his warrior training because it's the most likely lore conclusion. There are several parts of the GW2 story that we can figure out what happened in the gaps because of logical deduction, and that's for important story details like why the sylvari are free from mordremoths control, this one moment where Rytlock wields a greatsword cause he gave the commander Sohothin is really being blown out of proportion for it's importance to a cohesive narrative, especially considering how Rytlock was initially a warrior, and as such knows how to use a greatsword.

 

As for Shiro and Mallyx, well:

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_Assassin_Stance

 

Shiro's dialogue indicates a curiosity in the player, a desire for freedom but also a willingness to aid the commander.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_Demon_Stance

 

The fact that Mallyx talks suggests he's much much more than just a gorilla.

[Kuulpb.5412]

You argued earlier that kalla would know to use a shortbow as charr learn to use many weapons etc. ( something along those lines, forgive me for not quoting exactly), So of all the weapons he chose greatsword, of the weapons, - Sword, axe, mace, shortbow, longbow, staff(as seen in a trailer), greatsword, hammer, dagger. he chose Greatsword. - it just irks me - In HoT trailer he uses a Melee Staff, showing he is capable, he uses a sword, Kalla uses Shortbow, Rytlock then decides on GS instead of melee staff. it may be perfectly sensible lorewise, but it just feels inconsistent. that he's used Sword/Pistol, Staff and Greatsword. Which you've already mentioned isn't locked for npcs, (I know, pistol/torch bandits) but he's never seen using a GS Prior to this.

[castlemanic.3198]

> @Kuulpb.5412 said:

> You argued earlier that kalla would know to use a shortbow as charr learn to use many weapons etc. ( something along those lines, forgive me for not quoting exactly), So of all the weapons he chose greatsword, of the weapons, - Sword, axe, mace, shortbow, longbow, staff(as seen in a trailer), greatsword, hammer, dagger. he chose Greatsword. - it just irks me - In HoT trailer he uses a Melee Staff, showing he is capable, he uses a sword, Kalla uses Shortbow, Rytlock then decides on GS instead of melee staff. it may be perfectly sensible lorewise, but it just feels inconsistent. that he's used Sword/Pistol, Staff and Greatsword. Which you've already mentioned isn't locked for npcs, (I know, pistol/torch bandits) but he's never seen using a GS Prior to this.

 

Yes, but knowing how to wield something doesn't mean you *enjoy* using it or have a preference for using it over another weapon. And the leap from sword to greatsword is extremely tiny compared to the leap from sword to *shortbow*.

 

Also, the trailer should not be taken as Rytlock canonically/lore-wise using a staff, that specific trailer was more than likely showing off how revenants can use a staff, this cool shiny new class that uses weapons in unique ways, just like the Heart of Thorns launch trailer where Rytlock takes down a wyvern in a single strike can't be taken as official lore or canon. If you recall, the Path of Fire trailers shows Kasmeer riding a skimmer, but in game she rides a raptor at every mountable opportunity (that i've seen at least). That's the fault with trailers, flair over substance. They're hype material and should not be taken as anything beyond that, especially not as lore. Canonically speaking, we've only seen Rytlock use a one handed sword and a pistol, and then only a one handed sword, so any variation on that could be seen as inconsistent, *including Rytlock wielding a shortbow*.

[Kuulpb.5412]

ON a somewhat related, but different, note. Regarding Turai Ossa being a legend, We've gone to the desert, but we encountered Turai WAY before then in the durmand priory library, even before HoT. So yes If charr were the ones to learn from rytlock kalla makes sense, but COULD Turai have made sense if literally ANY of them were in the durmand priory?

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

> @draxynnic.3719 said:

 

> (It's worth noting, incidentally, that it may well be canon that several months passed between HoT and the start of Season 3, allowing Rytlock to have taken on a few trainees in the Pact before the Black Citadel caught up with him.)

 

I would say that it's confirmed canon. While it did contain... oddities that are most likely mistakes, the [Conspiracy of Dunces](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Conspiracy_of_Dunces) achievement is the only set of dates we have to work with, and it establishes ~10 months between the end of HoT and the start of S3.

 

On the larger discussion- a lot of this seems to hinge on the basis of Rytlock being a renegade, but is there any evidence of that? Gorea only mentions Rytlock's knowledge of revenant powers in general. Combine that with the fact that she's choosing to learn to evoke Kalla in the depths of the Crystal Desert, with no other revenants in evidence nearby and a self-professed desire for solitude, and I was under the impression that she's figuring it out for herself.

 

[castlemanic.3198]

> @Kuulpb.5412 said:

> ON a somewhat related, but different, note. Regarding Turai Ossa being a legend, We've gone to the desert, but we encountered Turai WAY before then in the durmand priory library, even before HoT. So yes If charr were the ones to learn from rytlock kalla makes sense, but COULD Turai have made sense if literally ANY of them were in the durmand priory?

 

The commander and jory were the only ones who encountered Turai Ossa's echo, the ritual could only happen once and as such nobody else could have ever met Turai Ossa before heart of thorns, so there's no scenario where Rytlock would teach charr in the black citedal revenant magic and that charr then goes on to channel Turai Ossa because the two met.

 

However, if a revenant charr, after learning revenant magic from Rytlock, were to then travel to Elona and meet Turai Ossa for themselves, THEN it would make sense.

 

> @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> On the larger discussion- a lot of this seems to hinge on the basis of Rytlock being a renegade, but is there any evidence of that? Gorea only mentions Rytlock's knowledge of revenant powers in general. Combine that with the fact that she's choosing to learn to evoke Kalla in the depths of the Crystal Desert, with no other revenants in evidence nearby and a self-professed desire for solitude, and I was under the impression that she's figuring it out for herself.

>

 

This is where I believe mechanics and lore are in conflict. The way revenant seems to work is the ability to channel legends. We now have two examples of elite specs based solely on a legend and magic related to that legend. It makes no sense that a revenant of any degree would only be able to stick with one legend or another, nor does it make any sense to limit (lore-wise) which legend can be learned or taught first. The denomination of 'revenant', 'herald' and 'renegade' makes much more sense mechanics and gameplay wise than it does lore-wise, as a way of distinguishing one elite spec from another, because lore-wise it's still all revenant magic with the base not really changing.

 

It's my belief that the differences lore-wise between the base classes and their elite specs are minimal as a whole, since mesmers are still mesmers whether they're chronomancers or mirages, but they have new tricks up their sleeves as it were, but the difference is basically non-existent between revenants and their elite specs, it's just an extra legend in their armory in a class that's entirely about channeling legends (lore-wise).

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

But it still doesn't follow that every revenant will necessarily access every legend, especially as the roster continues to expand. Kalla's example seems to have a deep personal resonance for Gorea, so it makes sense that she'd seek to harness her, but Rytlock's in a different boat. Maybe he doesn't identify so strongly with Kalla, maybe he figures he already has enough voices in his head... or maybe he does harness Kalla and we just don't know about it, but at this point we can't take that as a given.

[castlemanic.3198]

> @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> But it still doesn't follow that every revenant will necessarily access every legend, especially as the roster continues to expand. Kalla's example seems to have a deep personal resonance for Gorea, so it makes sense that she'd seek to harness her, but Rytlock's in a different boat. Maybe he doesn't identify so strongly with Kalla, maybe he figures he already has enough voices in his head... or maybe he does harness Kalla and we just don't know about it, but at this point we can't take that as a given.

 

But we're not talking about every revenant. We're talking about a select few charr who *are* revenants. We have the first non-rytlock revenant who channels Kalla, a fellow charr. My initial conjecture still stands, that Rytlock taught the first few charr revenants Kalla first as a way of easing in new charr, who are distrustful of magic as a whole, a legend they could understand, that they could connect with on a deeper level and thus make accessing revenant magic easier. Obviously Rytlock wouldn't start with Mallyx or Shiro, and the remaining three, while interesting for charr associated with the priory, wouldn't have enough of a connection to charr society to make that bridge to learning revenant magic super easy. We know through the article linked early that it's the same difficulty as a whole to become a revenant as any other profession, but there's the aspect of unfamiliarity that would, at least initially, make it more difficult to get accustomed to, so having not only a charr legend, but warband based magic to work with, would ease the gap of unfamiliarity that would help those first charr grasp the knowledge. More than likely the same thing happened when Rytlock was first learning revenant magic, that Glint taught him how to channel her and her draconic magic, showed him how safe it is in that he won't be possessed by those he channels, and then he saw the practicality (or came across) Shiro and Mallyx and uses them as well (though it's entirely possible that Rytlock channels Glint and a bunch of legends players have no access to at this point in time instead of the four core revenant legends that we have access to).

 

It is still conjecture, and I could be horribly wrong about Rytlock's initial teaching style, with Gorea taking inspiration from Kalla herself without any suggestion from Rytlock to do so, but I think it's not unreasonable that Rytlock could expand his knowledge to at least showcase, if not constantly channel, Kalla for the first revenant students, and this being a one time thing won't mean Rytlock will forever channel all future elite spec legends as well.