Are Black Lion Keys "Loot Boxes" ?

[Warkind.6745]

I appreciate how many people can shrug off the impact of loot boxes and BLCs because they have the time/patience to spam the world with new characters and farm out keys, ignoring the fact that they're not the target audience of keys on the gem store. It's not even children.

 

Heads up: there are adults out there with poor impulse control. It's why casinos exist.

[Gehenna.3625]

> @"robertthebard.8150" said:

> > @"Gehenna.3625" said:

> > They are lootboxes since the result is RNG and you can buy them with real money. I think they are less intrusive than in some other games but the reality is that the keys are not cheap exactly and people can really blow a lot of money on them just to get that one item.

> >

> > I think that when it comes down to it, ArenaNet would be wise to plan for alternate ways to deal with this side of the cash shop. I think that having BLCs with keys dropping purely from game activities can be a fun activity as such. The rest will have to be down to making it just like the rest of the items: direct sale only.

> >

> > I get that for companies selling something with a high repeat value is attractive but it's not a customer-oriented approach. Again, I think ArenaNet have most certainly been quite a bit milder in their approach to RNG loot. Even the mount licenses were guaranteed to not give doubles but I think in due course they will have to rethink the RNG strategies in relation to real money spending. And there are other things that do not fall under lootboxes that are out there that they can use. It may not be as easy and profitable but unfortunately the gaming industry has proven to be unable to self-regulate across the board and that's why governments are getting involved now.

>

> What part of "I can get the keys for free" makes them "not cheap"?

 

I know that keys can be earned in game but in rather limited amounts and their acquisition is even subject to RNG. It should not be necessary for me to explain that the limited availability in game and low probabilities of winning more valuable items from the BLCs is set up to encourage people to buy keys. Still, no matter how you want to spin it, the reality is that there are RNG lootboxes that you can buy with real money. And that's what the issue is. So try not to come up with some weak arguments about being able to get them in game as well, especially considering their limited availability there. This is a clear and known business practice to entice people to buy more.

[robertthebard.8150]

> @"Gehenna.3625" said:

> > @"robertthebard.8150" said:

> > > @"Gehenna.3625" said:

> > > They are lootboxes since the result is RNG and you can buy them with real money. I think they are less intrusive than in some other games but the reality is that the keys are not cheap exactly and people can really blow a lot of money on them just to get that one item.

> > >

> > > I think that when it comes down to it, ArenaNet would be wise to plan for alternate ways to deal with this side of the cash shop. I think that having BLCs with keys dropping purely from game activities can be a fun activity as such. The rest will have to be down to making it just like the rest of the items: direct sale only.

> > >

> > > I get that for companies selling something with a high repeat value is attractive but it's not a customer-oriented approach. Again, I think ArenaNet have most certainly been quite a bit milder in their approach to RNG loot. Even the mount licenses were guaranteed to not give doubles but I think in due course they will have to rethink the RNG strategies in relation to real money spending. And there are other things that do not fall under lootboxes that are out there that they can use. It may not be as easy and profitable but unfortunately the gaming industry has proven to be unable to self-regulate across the board and that's why governments are getting involved now.

> >

> > What part of "I can get the keys for free" makes them "not cheap"?

>

> I know that keys can be earned in game but in rather limited amounts and their acquisition is even subject to RNG. It should not be necessary for me to explain that the limited availability in game and low probabilities of winning more valuable items from the BLCs is set up to encourage people to buy keys. Still, no matter how you want to spin it, the reality is that there are RNG lootboxes that you can buy with real money. And that's what the issue is. So try not to come up with some weak arguments about being able to get them in game as well, especially considering their limited availability there. This is a clear and known business practice to entice people to buy more.

 

Are we going to outlaw the Impulse buy shelves at grocery and department stores too? That is, after all, why those items are there, to entice you to buy more stuff. What about TV commercials, I'm on board for banning those. Maybe we need to go after cliff hanger endings too, because their sole purpose is to entice you to watch the sequel. There are a lot of common business practices aimed at enticing the consumer to consume. When a loot box is actually predatory is when it contains, or can contain items required to play the game, or to be better at playing the game. I don't buy keys here out of principle, I don't like the system, as it was introduced to me, in a very real P2W situation, in a game called Rappelz. They were literally selling end game weapons, or a chance at them, in a loot box format.

 

My real issue with this discussion is where it ends up:

 

Indestructible gathering tools are P2W, that was posted in this thread.

 

In AC Odyssey, a poster put forward that the "loot boxes" in the in game store, not the cash shop, but an actual store in game, that only accepted a currency that could only be acquired in game, was P2W.

 

I am not required to buy the chests here, they drop like candy. I am not required to buy the keys, they don't drop like candy, but they do drop in game. I haven't been here a year yet, and I've had a break of several months in the middle, and I've still opened around 30 chests w/out buying a single key. I don't remember that I got anything even memorable, let alone required to play the game. People with poor impulse control need help, but they don't need help from the government, they need professional help that can only be obtained in the real world.

 

Since we want to use people with poor impulse control as the basis for new laws, what happens when the % of membership of Jenny Craig, or Weight Watchers starts lobbying for closing all restaurants? They can't control their impulse to eat, and these establishments are "aimed at people that can't control their impulse to eat", right? It's why they have big flashy attention getting signs, isn't it? This seems a bit "way out of left field" as the expression goes, but it's the same logic that's being used here: "We have to regulate this because some people can't help themselves". I'd really like the government to be less involved in all aspects of my life, rather than more involved. This kind of thing should really be self regulating; I'm not having an issue regulating it, and reading through the thread, and countless others on countless other game forums, I'm not the only one that isn't. But we have to regulate it, because some people are, and won't get the professional help they need doesn't help those people. They'll find something else, and pretty soon, we'll be regulating how much you're allowed to breathe in public.

 

As much as I hate loot boxes in principle, what's offered here isn't intrusive in the slightest. "But the chests drop like candy" isn't really a sound argument: I have over 100 chests sitting in my bank. When I pull a key, I open one, if I don't pull a key, they sit there, doing nothing. There's no flashy sign saying "buy keys and open us" unlike in swtor, where if you're not subbed, and don't have the gear perk, the chest will literally tell you to subscribe so you can get your drop. If I'm going to "pick a hill to die on", this one isn't it. There are far more "predatory" examples out there, and some of them have already been targeted. Most of them aren't in my catalogue of games, either because of their loot box system, or because I hadn't planned to play them anyway, and their system turned me all the way off.