The only thing weaver is good for...

[Azel.4786]

> @Feanor.2358 said:

> What new condis or boons does a Firebrand offer? Adding these regularly on the new specs would only make every class be able to do every one of them. And then what? It's not a sustainable policy and it's not a great design either. I like how certain professions have their "profiles" in the conditions/boons they can work with.

>

> The core spec mechanic is pretty defining to the gameplay, so I'm gonna disagree there as well. Besides, "deep down" everything is the same - manage resources/cooldowns to win the race between your hit points and your opponent's. That's not an argument. An elite spec should give a new feel to the existing profession (which Weaver does) while fitting in its archetype (which Weaver does again). Everything beside that is just "but it's not what I wanted". Well guess what, you can't possibly make a spec which is "what I wanted" for every single player out there.

 

Firebrand offers a ton of new stuff:

 

- It offers Eternal Oasis: Unique Healing buff to allies.

- It offers Unbroken Lines: Unique Toughness buff to allies.

- It essentially offers 3 new weapon sets with Tomes, adding a lot of variety to the class, akin to "engi kits"

- It has the potential to offer perma quickness to the party;

- Unrelenting Criticism offers new utility to Symbol of Vengance (Daze)

- It gives access to slow (something base Guard did not have)

 

What does Weaver have that it did not have as a base ele? Only the attunement swap CD and you may make a case that it gives Float from Weaver Self and Gale Strike (the first one which I personally think it could have a pull for a burst set up and the second one which is a very unreliable skill to use).

 

Some ways it could be different:

- What if Sword Earth #2 was a target underground leap that applied revealed? Offering better leaps for the Weaver rune 6th bonus and an debuff base ele does not have?

- What if Unravel was an utility stance that granted you boon stripping / stealing?

- What if Woven Stride managed condi by giving you resistance (which allows counterplay) rather than being Water trait line dependent?

- What if primordial stance offered poison instead of chill? And perhaps giving a secondary random condi if you are single attuned or perhaps only controlling 1 condi (main hand) while the second condi is random of the other 3?

- What if Twist of Fate offered projectile hate or even an interrupt in addition to what it does? Giving "Twist of Fate"and actual "twist of fate" either being defensive or offensive used, or even both?

- What if instead of just getting "face tanking stats" with our defense traits (the 3rd ones) - which you so adequately said we shouldn't - we got things like interrupt, blinds, weakness, endurance, stealth to be our way to survive?

- What if Sword fire leap #2 made the fire field you generate explode in a cloud of smoke, afflicting those hit by it with blindness and perhaps the possibility to combo another leap to gain stealth?

- What if instead of just %damage buffs on the 1st Adept, 1st and 2nd Major and 3rd GM we got things that really changed the playstyle? Like what Lightning Rod, Fresh Air do so well, and what other classes also have such as Holosmith, Spellbreaker, Scourge, etc?

 

Obviously not saying all of that should come - because indeed no spec should offer "eveything", but something new to me would be nice.

 

But I guess since we are devolving now to saying people have childish behavior (saying "it is not what I wanted") for trying to think of new things that could improve the spec and give it new tools, the discussion is becoming rather mute and worthless and I guess it is just a "agree to disagree".

 

[Dadnir.5038]

Well, Weaver provide some answer to things that have been asked for year by the elementalist community:

- an improved base health thanks to _Master's fortitude_.

- some window of opportunity in order to unleash it's burst thanks to the various barrier it can get.

- A main hand sword.

 

Weaver is most likely meant to be a burst spec in PvP and sword is just a not really good weapon. You need to equip a spec to use sword but at the same time you are not forced to use the sword in order to play the spec. If the sword is unsatisfying, just use the "better" options.

[juno.1840]

> @Dadnir.5038 said:

> Well, Weaver provide some answer to things that have been asked for year by the elementalist community:

> - an improved base health thanks to _Master's fortitude_.

> - some window of opportunity in order to unleash it's burst thanks to the various barrier it can get.

> - A main hand sword.

>

> Weaver is most likely meant to be a burst spec in PvP and sword is just a not really good weapon. You need to equip a spec to use sword but at the same time you are not forced to use the sword in order to play the spec. If the sword is unsatisfying, just use the "better" options.

 

Improved health base only significant if using sword. Another weapon and it's just 5% of power, 5% of condi dmg.

[Feanor.2358]

> @Azel.4786 said:

> Firebrand offers a ton of new stuff:

> - It essentially offers 3 new weapon sets with Tomes, adding a lot of variety to the class, akin to "engi kits"

 

Did you just compare the number of new skills of Firebrand and Weaver?

 

> @Azel.4786 said:

> - What if Sword Earth #2 was a target underground leap that applied revealed? Offering better leaps for the Weaver rune 6th bonus and an debuff base ele does not have?

> - What if Unravel was an utility stance that granted you boon stripping / stealing?

> - What if Woven Stride managed condi by giving you resistance (which allows counterplay) rather than being Water trait line dependent?

> - What if primordial stance offered poison instead of chill? And perhaps giving a secondary random condi if you are single attuned or perhaps only controlling 1 condi (main hand) while the second condi is random of the other 3?

 

None of these really fit the elementalist archetype. They exist in the game and ele exists in the game, but this doesn't mean ele should have access to them. The profession is about manipulation of raw elements, not intricate magical effects.

 

> @Azel.4786 said:

> - What if Twist of Fate offered projectile hate or even an interrupt in addition to what it does? Giving "Twist of Fate"and actual "twist of fate" either being defensive or offensive used, or even both?

 

It would still be only usable in pvp game modes. I don't know if it will become too strong or not, it might be a valid request.

 

> @Azel.4786 said:

> - What if instead of just getting "face tanking stats" with our defense traits (the 3rd ones) - which you so adequately said we shouldn't - we got things like interrupt, blinds, weakness, endurance, stealth to be our way to survive?

 

We already have blinds, weakness, interrupts and projectile destruction - which are the ones fitting the archetype.

 

> @Azel.4786 said:

> - What if Sword fire leap #2 made the fire field you generate explode in a cloud of smoke, afflicting those hit by it with blindness and perhaps the possibility to combo another leap to gain stealth?

 

See above. Stealth doesn't fit.

 

> @Azel.4786 said:

> - What if instead of just %damage buffs on the 1st Adept, 1st and 2nd Major and 3rd GM we got things that really changed the playstyle? Like what Lightning Rod, Fresh Air do so well, and what other classes also have such as Holosmith, Spellbreaker, Scourge, etc?

 

I could argue Elements of Rage does that, to an extent, in a somewhat opposite way to Fresh Air. I do find the other GMs underwhelming (I'm a PvE scrub, so...) and I would very much like to see something interesting there.

 

> @Azel.4786 said:

> Obviously not saying all of that should come - because indeed no spec should offer "eveything", but something new to me would be nice.

>

> But I guess since we are devolving now to saying people have childish behavior (saying "it is not what I wanted") for trying to think of new things that could improve the spec and give it new tools, the discussion is becoming rather mute and worthless and I guess it is just a "agree to disagree".

>

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the spec is perfect. There's always room for improvement. But I do think people are underestimating it.

[Jski.6180]

@ Feanor.2358 Firebrand is very close to ele in game play but closer to core ele then weaver.

 

As things stand weaver is good at being a tank but that all its going to do there a real lack of dps for all but say scepter glass builds.

[Feanor.2358]

The "PvE does not exist" viewpoint yet again? Power Staff Weaver certainly doesn't lack damage.

[Azel.4786]

> @Feanor.2358 said:

> Did you just compare the number of new skills of Firebrand and Weaver?

 

What? No - the comparison you asked was "What does Firebrand give new to the Guardian?" Which is exactly what I did in several points raised that are incontestable.

 

My comment is that they changed the virtues from these passive / small effects abilities to full blown new weapons that work akin to Engi kit giving the Guardian a set of weapon skills that is very focused practically giving it the classical "MMO trinity" - DPS, Healer and Support - in three nice packages.

 

It is a very big change, that pushes a lot of the guardian - quite frankly I even think Firebrand suffers a bit from the "giving it everything" problem that I think should be avoided, but that is another point.

 

> @Feanor.2358 said:

> None of these really fit the elementalist archetype. They exist in the game and ele exists in the game, but this doesn't mean ele should have access to them. The profession is about manipulation of raw elements, not intricate magical effects.

 

I disagree, let's take a look one by one and why the suggestions could fit:

 

-First, the only thing on Sword Earth #2 that I am suggesting it to change it to be a targeted leap and apply revealed. Targeted leap is really nothing "not fitting" since we have it already in other skills. The revealed, well ANET expressly said that they were inspired by Avatar the last Airbender to make Weaver and what does the greatest Earthbender have in the show? Termosense - hence why revealed to me would perfectly fit.

 

- As for Unravel, Ele's are indeed masters of the element, but I wouldn't discard their mastery of magic (e.g., Arcane arts). Why couldn't Unravel be using their magic to dispel the magic of others? To me, again, very fitting with the elementalist.

 

- Primordial stance - offering poison, yeah maybe not very fitting, although water themed. The second part though, don't see why bringing the chaotic aspect of the ranging elemental forces wouldn't fit.

 

- Woven Stride - Why not would resistance not fit the elementalist? Earth magic is all about endurance and resisting attacks, so why couldn't the elementalist use it to get resistance in someway - why should it only be cleansing, quite frankly I never understood why Diamond Skin "Cures condi", why turning your skin to diamond suddenly starts curing you of a Torment? To me granting you a crystalline form should be a means of giving you resistance / immunity to ailments from the outside world, instead of curing you.

 

> @Feanor.2358 said:

> It would still be only usable in pvp game modes. I don't know if it will become too strong or not, it might be a valid request.

 

I think Weaver can be a very nice swashbuckler type of character, that twists the tides of battle. So yes, Twist of Fate could be a nice skill for PvP with the change, but still have uses in PvE with the projectile hate or even the interrupt through a cyclone float, for example - plus the stun break aspect of it can not be discarded.

 

> @Feanor.2358 said:

> We already have blinds, weakness, interrupts and projectile destruction - which are the ones fitting the archetype.

 

This I really don't get your point, first you mention "I don't want it to be able to frontline / resist", now you defend face tanking stats.

 

But I digress, yeah we have blinds, interrupt, weakness and projectile hate - but none are a way to play the class - they are just small additions that are usable in any actual means as a consistent defense mechanism. The ele, base line, is all about face tanking to survive (through protection buff and healing).

 

Look at how the GM Fire trait is pretty much worthless, but if it was combined with another means to use blind as a defense, heck it just might be a turning point for our survival to change from protection / healing face tankiness, to something else.

 

Weaver sword could play the swashbuckler type - being mobile and counter-play based. Would be a nice touch for the traits and abilities and by leaving it with a good / fair level of DPS from the abilities, could make the sword useful even in a PvE scenario as a very nice breakbar destroying class and useful DPS class.

 

My point is, just the numbers game is a boring play (stat buffing and %damage traits) - it becomes pure gear check play when all your skills do is X damage and nothing else.

 

> @Feanor.2358 said:

> See above. Stealth doesn't fit.

 

Again, this is purely your arbitrary notion - Stealth would be seen as the akin of actually blinding your opponent in a fight with the smoke / flashes of light, so that he doesn't see your next attack coming. Would be a perfect thematic play and quite frankly something I would expect of a melee master of elements - using flashes of light and smoke / dust to blind his opponent and attack without him being able to see.

 

Alternatively, we could have a trait that "buffs" blindness in some way, perhaps making it last for 2 attacks - or perhaps it apply a new type of condi that operates similarly to this "misdirection" style of using your Fire / Lightning spells I mention above - who knows.

 

It can fit as long as you don't look at specs just needing to be the same exact thing, but rather being open-mind about how to approach what the class is (master of elements) and how he can use it in innovative ways.

 

> @Feanor.2358 said:

> I could argue Elements of Rage does that, to an extent, in a somewhat opposite way to Fresh Air. I do find the other GMs underwhelming (I'm a PvE scrub, so...) and I would very much like to see something interesting there.

 

Elements of Rage is really just a Bolt to the Heart that doesn't have the 50% HP component. Fresh Air uniqueness comes from the burst potential it gives through the lightning procs of swapping to air, so it can turn you into a "burst spec", which is different from the "bruiser" general style of the elementalist.

 

We could have very interesting stuff - perhaps for the condi lovers out there we could have a trait that is "Frost Burn", apply burning when you apply chill. Giving a nice and simple thematic style of play that buffs condis and now makes water something to consider given the large amounts of chill we could be applying.

 

We could even have a new unique mechanic in which "Chill" could be stackable for us and once a number of chills is reached the enemy becomes frozen for a short period of time - heck this could even be granted as something controllable with a dual skill (Explode the chill stacks to inflict bleed and freeze the target).

 

So many new things that could be put that are thematically fitting and not just spreadsheet numbers play only.

 

All it takes is to open minded a bit and explore, as I said many times already - the Weaver is a good idea, it is just not well executed at the moment as it can be much more than just a %damage to the base ele.

 

[draxynnic.3719]

> @Feanor.2358 said:

> What exactly should it offer? Support? Tempest already does that. Should it somehow turn the most fragile of all professions into a frontliner? Nah, I'm fine with what Weaver offers. It's a distinctly different gameplay, and that's enough even though the role is the same.

 

Considering that a Weaver using a sword is all but entirely committed to melee, it really should have decent ability to survive there.

 

> @Feanor.2358 said:

> None of these really fit the elementalist archetype. They exist in the game and ele exists in the game, but this doesn't mean ele should have access to them. The profession is about manipulation of raw elements, not intricate magical effects.

 

Three comments here:

 

First, dealing with elements does not necessarily mean that there are no intricate effects. Weaver in particular is about intricate combinations of elements, and the GW1 elementalist had plenty of skills that went deeper than just throwing around raw elements - wards, glyphs, the various 'glowing' or 'mind' spells that manipulated energy, and the ether spells that did the same.

 

Second... elite specialisations can bring things into a profession that weren't present before. Dragonhunter brought traps into the guardian. Druid brought strong healing into the ranger. Spellbreaker makes warriors into some of the strongest boonstrip around. There's no reason that an elementalist elite specialisation can't step outside of the usual bounds of the elementalist.

 

Third, some of this stuff could be worked into an elemental theme. For instance, we already have water healing - would it really be out of the pale for an elementalist to be able to conjure water that dissolves and washes away boons, wind that blows them away, or fire that burns them off? Or conjuring poisoned water? Or temporarily turning their body into an elemental form that is immune to conditions (resistance)?

[MyPuppy.8970]

> @Azel.4786 said:

 

> **Objectively, Weaver offers no new abilities**- sure it offers new skills - but let's bring them down to their essence and you will notice that Ele is the only class that does not have anything new with the elite specs - it is always the same deal with Fire skills doing X damage and maybe apply burning (heck cauterizing strike is literally the same thing as Fire Grab, only worse), Water skills apply X-Y% damage and heal. Air skills apply X+% damage and do nothing or rarely an interrupt or vul. Earth skills do X-y% damage and apply bleed. Pure and simple.

>

> **Weaver is pretty much the same thing ele has always been**. It offers no new condis, no new boons, no interplay with boon / condi, no way to strip/steal/corrupt boons, no new look at skills/attunements, no new way to deal with condi (it is again just water) - in sum, it has literally nothing new.

>

> **The traits are also big offenders as they offer nothing new**- it is purely stat buffs by means of either direct stat buffs (Master's Fortitude, GM minor) or through damage% buffs (Adept 1, Major 1 and 2, GM 1).

>

 

What if Weaver could weave traits? Just like chosing to dual/single attune we could go Air/Air/Weaver or Fire/Fire/Weaver and have 2 minor/master/grandmaster traits of one single element. That would be unique.

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @draxynnic.3719 said:

> > @Feanor.2358 said:

> > What exactly should it offer? Support? Tempest already does that. Should it somehow turn the most fragile of all professions into a frontliner? Nah, I'm fine with what Weaver offers. It's a distinctly different gameplay, and that's enough even though the role is the same.

>

> Considering that a Weaver using a sword is all but entirely committed to melee, it really should have decent ability to survive there.

>

> > @Feanor.2358 said:

> > None of these really fit the elementalist archetype. They exist in the game and ele exists in the game, but this doesn't mean ele should have access to them. The profession is about manipulation of raw elements, not intricate magical effects.

>

> Three comments here:

>

> First, dealing with elements does not necessarily mean that there are no intricate effects. Weaver in particular is about intricate combinations of elements, and the GW1 elementalist had plenty of skills that went deeper than just throwing around raw elements - wards, glyphs, the various 'glowing' or 'mind' spells that manipulated energy, and the ether spells that did the same.

>

> Second... elite specialisations can bring things into a profession that weren't present before. Dragonhunter brought traps into the guardian. Druid brought strong healing into the ranger. Spellbreaker makes warriors into some of the strongest boonstrip around. There's no reason that an elementalist elite specialisation can't step outside of the usual bounds of the elementalist.

>

> Third, some of this stuff could be worked into an elemental theme. For instance, we already have water healing - would it really be out of the pale for an elementalist to be able to conjure water that dissolves and washes away boons, wind that blows them away, or fire that burns them off? Or conjuring poisoned water? Or temporarily turning their body into an elemental form that is immune to conditions (resistance)?

 

You can reason a connection for pretty much everything to the base elements. After all, that's what they were originally used for in ancient Greece. That's still no reason to do it in a game. In short, in a game you want to limit certain options, make them accessible only to specific characters/classes/whatever you want to call them. And it is better to pick the ones that are sort of defining for the archetype of the class. Like Stealth for instance is defining for Thief. It's OK that Mesmers have access to it, after all their magic is very much deception and trickery. But you don't want to go overboard and find a way for every class to stealth themselves because that would erode Thief's identity.

 

I won't go through all of the above mechanics, because I really am not familiar enough with all the classes to do a detailed analysis on each. But that's the basic premise. I would assume boon corruption is thematically linked to the Necromancers and Resistance perhaps to Revenants. And so forth.

 

I want to also address the Elements of Rage comment above. EoR works a lot more like Fresh Air than Bolt to the Heart. Yes, you can view it as a flat damage bonus. However, if you don't use it for bursting, you're not really utilizing its potential. This is how the Staff Weaver works - you align as many damaging skills as possible in this 8s window of opportunity to apply that 10% modifier to as much damage as possible. It is just as defining for the gameplay as Fresh Air is.

 

> @Azel.4786 said:

> We could have very interesting stuff - perhaps for the condi lovers out there we could have a trait that is "Frost Burn", apply burning when you apply chill. Giving a nice and simple thematic style of play that buffs condis and now makes water something to consider given the large amounts of chill we could be applying.

>

> We could even have a new unique mechanic in which "Chill" could be stackable for us and once a number of chills is reached the enemy becomes frozen for a short period of time - heck this could even be granted as something controllable with a dual skill (Explode the chill stacks to inflict bleed and freeze the target).

>

> So many new things that could be put that are thematically fitting and not just spreadsheet numbers play only.

>

> All it takes is to open minded a bit and explore, as I said many times already - the Weaver is a good idea, it is just not well executed at the moment as it can be much more than just a %damage to the base ele.

>

 

There's nothing easier than adding new mechanics to a game. Again, it's not a reason to do it. Because it is also a fast and sure way to make it a mess. Mess to balance, mess to read it as a player. Stuff like Frostburn the way you describe it is possible, and even if a bit overused at this point it would be a nice thematic match to the Weaver. But it would need a careful analysis of the Chill applications available to the class. In contrast, making (essentially) a separate chill for the sake of a convoluted application of Frozen is an overkill.

[Azel.4786]

> @Feanor.2358 said:

> I won't go through all of the above mechanics, because I really am not familiar enough with all the classes to do a detailed analysis on each. But that's the basic premise. I would assume boon corruption is thematically linked to the Necromancers and Resistance perhaps to Revenants. And so forth.

 

Corrupt boon - possibly. Resistance though, not at all. Resistance is applied by Warrior, Guard, Engi, Mesmer and - although a bit more difficult - Necro. The only classes that don't have resistance are Thief, Ranger and Ele.

 

And someone needs to explain to me the regenerative properties of Diamond for Diamond Skin to be a heal condi and not a resist condi trait.

 

> @Feanor.2358 said:

> I want to also address the Elements of Rage comment above. EoR works a lot more like Fresh Air than Bolt to the Heart. Yes, you can view it as a flat damage bonus. However, if you don't use it for bursting, you're not really utilizing its potential. This is how the Staff Weaver works - you align as many damaging skills as possible in this 8s window of opportunity to apply that 10% modifier to as much damage as possible. It is just as defining for the gameplay as Fresh Air is.

 

Not from what I have seen in all benchmarks PvE videos - Elements of Rage is being played as a "swap attune to keep it up all the time". Therefore, the only thing it has done to builds is to make it so that solely fire camping is not the exactly best way to do max damage.

 

> @Feanor.2358 said:

> There's nothing easier than adding new mechanics to a game. Again, it's not a reason to do it. Because it is also a fast and sure way to make it a mess. Mess to balance, mess to read it as a player. Stuff like Frostburn the way you describe it is possible, and even if a bit overused at this point it would be a nice thematic match to the Weaver. But it would need a careful analysis of the Chill applications available to the class. In contrast, making (essentially) a separate chill for the sake of a convoluted application of Frozen is an overkill.

 

New mechanics and new ways to play the class is exactly what the Elite Specs are sold out to be. Frankly, all elite specs are giving the other professions new stuff they didn't have before and in various opportunities taking things from other professions or simply creating entire new stuff that are giving uniquely to a profession.

 

For ele, we are limiting the class to the same mechanic and arbitrary style of skills for no good reason at all - merely under the argument that "well eles shouldn't have things different from their base theme".

 

And honestly, this is limiting exclusively the elementalist and for no good reason, because you could totally have a master of elements that is able to literally turn himself into a ball of lightning become able to give itself quickness (outside now of a very short duration in Lightning Hammer) or use mud / rain / ashes to reveal hidden attackers. How a caster that has studied magic to be able to harness the powers of the elements and the arcane arts can not think of a way to do the above, is more baffling to me.

 

And while we are on the topic - how is the elite skill giving the power over Gravity perfectly fitting, but it would not be fitting to be a whirl of elemental power that pulls people to the center and them throws them away?