The (mysterious) fb/ren comp

[rabenpriester.7129]

I don't think this game is worth it at the moment to care about boss kill times, to be quite frank. At least not for me. It's just too easy. What I optimized was personal strats, making runs safer, having fun, making cool plays possible - but anet balanced most of that fun I had out.

 

So I'm left with fullclears, then log out. Which is exactly the point of my post, for a fullclear relogging your support framework is not that great.

 

Also, random question: Can you go Herald for a tank and keep perma Alacrity up?

[RaidsAreEasyAF.8652]

Considering that minstrel and commanders is a thing, yeah. Will be even better with diviner since most bosses hit like a wet noodle anyway. Firebrand is a better tank on most bosses Imo though.

thinking about it, you can probably negate most of xeras frenzy attack with shelter as well.

[Yasi.9065]

> @"rabenpriester.7129" said:

> Can't wait to see firebrand tanks to be absolutely torn to shreds by Xera and Desmina. The problem I see with these builds is that you'd have to relog your core support framework every couple of bosses, which is annoying af, takes time, takes a lot of organization and willingness of the support players to equip and learn more classes.

 

Actually, Ive tanked xera on pretty much everything, including builds like druid that dont have any blocks at all, without any trouble. So no, you really dont need a chrono for tanking xera. Its actually quite laughable. Id rather say a chrono is necessary for tanking VG than tanking xera. Xera is not even a challenge.

Desmina you need 2 tanks, but if for example you run a druid/healbrand/renegade/quickbrand support team for your fullclear, theres no reason at all to switch at any boss. Renegade can tank with retribution quite comfortably desmina, givers healfirebrand with mace/shield as well. The only "hole" compared to a more traditional 2 chrono, 1 druid, 1 healscourge comp is your condi removal in the grp of the quickbrand. But you can work around that by trading in dps (condi signet) for condi remove (regen mantra) on quickbrand.

 

> @"rabenpriester.7129" said:

> I think the relogging part is the most important point. For that reason I doubt we'll see this comp in w5 and w3 any time soon. Highly doubt we'll see it in w6, because Largos portal strat is too strong, and so are portals at Qadim.

 

Ive never really used portals for largos, except for first time trying zerg tactic and then half my squad didnt even use it, so we just leave it. And tbh, I dont see the point of it at all. You have to send your chrono away to place the portal and phase then the largos nearly faster than your chrono can get to you. Nah, Im sorry, but portals are quite unnecessary on largos.

For qadim its also just a gimmick and gives you around 40-60seconds time. Thats nice for record runs, but the goal of a fullclear is to find the balance between not wiping and getting speedy kills. If you really want a portal there, bring a power chrono. Its quite good on qadim anyway. But you can also just dont use portals at all and be faster due to more blocks/stability during fight itself.

 

> @"rabenpriester.7129" said:

> They also save time at w1 gorse pre, sab pre. Which leaves w4 as a wing you can clear witht his comp. Which, to me, begs the question: Why would you play fb/ren in a fullclear in any other wing, then? Relogging takes time, reorganizing takes time. These aren't "we finish the boss 20s faster" timesaves, sadly. Maybe you could solve these problems (including escort) with a portaling Mirage / Power Chrono, but then again you'd have to relog to a tanking Chrono on Xera and Desmina or your raid will become a clown fiesta. It would also lock you into 7 fixed classes to play, lul.

>

> I think this comp has a long way to go in raids, at least for fullclears.

 

I think you are wrong there. Portals at gorse pre are mainly one thing: convenient. I remember the times you'd not bring portals at all and instead just split up grps to north and south. Not really slower. Sab pre Ive yet to run with a lfg squad that uses even portal there, mainly because you need someone to say when to open which is inconvenient in chat.

Mind you, this is NOT about speedclears, as I said all the way up at the beginning of this thread. This is about convenience and safety. And sorry, but 2 chrono has also quite a lot of downsides nowadays, one being the long interval between boon application, another being less defense via aegis/stability. If you can work around that, good for you. If not, which is to say includes at least 90% of all pug raids, then fb/ren should be your go-to comp. The time you need more for not having conveniency portals, pugs waste on wiping, not doing dmg due to getting knocked around and lower boon/scholar uptimes.

 

And no, if you dont go for more aggressive strats that involve a fb switching between quickbrand and healbrand every other boss, then your support comp doesnt need to change at all. That however, you'd already do with 2nd healer on chrono/druid comp as well... so I dont see how this would mean more relogging at all.

 

Sorry, but I simply cannot agree with you on any of your points. ESPECIALLY for fullclears this comp is superior.

 

> @"rabenpriester.7129" said:

> Also, random question: Can you go Herald for a tank and keep perma Alacrity up?

 

Herald cant output 100% alacrity - tank or not, Renegade can.

 

> @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > @"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said:

> > Eh, portals really aren't that strong on largos. Qadim sure, largos not so much.

>

> For usual statics they are. The portal strat makes it faster and much safer especially if you don't have 6 top mirage players knowing how to properly deal with every mechanic + dealing tons of dmg with that class.

 

I havent used portal in weeks with my static and we never have more than 1 mirage, mainly because people dont like the class and Im not into forcing people to play something they dislike just because we then have 20min time left instead of "only" 10min at the end of our fullclear. We always have between 20 and 40sec left on timer when finishing last platform. No, portal is just gimmicky and in no way relevant on largos.

 

> @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> Having to relog dps players isn't much of a hassle most often just a few clicks - log out with 2 click - select the other dps class in a doubleclick - wait in loading screen, click the raid wing, wait and go. Changing support classes most often means your top chrono tank needs to play fb/ren at almost the same level. Much harder than to play dps if you ask me since it isn't just playing a rotation. Furthermore the above mentioned different strategies for bosses make this composition not really smooth in terms of an organized full clear. Our team is far from being perfect or a speed run guild but it would cost too much time to specifically swap out so many classes on different players and this for almost every boss. It's very far from being optimal for us.

> It might work very well for pugging specific bosses or in W4 as a whole.

 

Whats the comp you usually run? 2 chronos, 1 druid, +1healer/dps? Then heres the pendant for you in fb/ren comp -> 1 tank renegade, 1 druid, 1 quickbrand, 1 heal/quickbrand. Same amount of relogging/build switching.

[Klipso.8653]

My dream is that I can raid tank/heal with my FB

[Vinceman.4572]

> @"Yasi.9065" said:

> > @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > > @"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said:

> > > Eh, portals really aren't that strong on largos. Qadim sure, largos not so much.

> >

> > For usual statics they are. The portal strat makes it faster and much safer especially if you don't have 6 top mirage players knowing how to properly deal with every mechanic + dealing tons of dmg with that class.

>

> I havent used portal in weeks with my static and we never have more than 1 mirage, mainly because people dont like the class and Im not into forcing people to play something they dislike just because we then have 20min time left instead of "only" 10min at the end of our fullclear. We always have between 20 and 40sec left on timer when finishing last platform. No, portal is just gimmicky and in no way relevant on largos.

 

Good to hear. Sadly, I haven't seen many pugs with no issues at Largos when they split up in 5 + 5. Even in my static the split strat is much more risky than the portal one. It speaks for your static that you can do that strat with just 1 mirage and have 20-40s left on the timer. Most of the pug groups out there don't even reach the last platform due to lacking dps if not running with a lot of (good) mirages.

 

> Whats the comp you usually run? 2 chronos, 1 druid, +1healer/dps? Then heres the pendant for you in fb/ren comp -> 1 tank renegade, 1 druid, 1 quickbrand, 1 heal/quickbrand. Same amount of relogging/build switching.

 

I admit if this is possible then it can turn into an interesting one. Maybe I just need to see & experience the different tanks on desmina. Till now I've seen some streamers doing it and it hasn't convinced me at all when comparing to double chrono.

[Ertrak.9506]

I find it amazing people even need a guide for this.

 

I also don't understand why people are so scared of "4 heal" comp, ie 2 harrier/giver boon-FB 1 harrier renegade, 1 druid (/group might stacker). Pre nerfs, double chrono double druids comps were already effectively 4 zero-dps supports.

 

Utility? still the same. 600-range pull-> GS, CC-> bane signet, sh5, hammer 4, tome 1-3. Ofc portals is still locked to mesmer, but dps mesmers aren't hard to find and both mirages and power chronos and can drop a utility for portal with next to zero loss. The comparison to previous double heal comps is completely in favor of fb-ren: more cc, more healing, more cleanse, (now) more boons, more stability/aegis.

 

Mirror comp can still be run with 2 boon FB's 2 Renegades. Renegades run lasting legacy, cap alacrity with tablet and f4.

 

I don't understand why this community acts like quickness-dps FB is the only viable build for this comp. Just don't be stupid, easy.

[Vinceman.4572]

> @"Ertrak.9506" said:

> I find it amazing people even need a guide for this.

>

1. Many GW2 players aren't very skilled and need those because they don't look into subjects like traitlines, synergies etc.

2. Lots of people in GW2 are older than the typical picture of a youth gamer. They are working and not unemployed or students which means there's only a limiting amount of time for theory crafting.

 

> I also don't understand why people are so scared of "4 heal" comp, ie 2 harrier/giver boon-FB 1 harrier renegade, 1 druid (/group might stacker). Pre nerfs, double chrono double druids comps were already effectively 4 zero-dps supports.

 

Haven't seen anyone being scared. Besides that many statics do not use double druids and you want to have the same output than before and not take a step backwards a.k.a. need to spend more time for your daily full clear than before.

That's why the focus in this thread was questioning the 1:1 replacement which is not absolutely that easy on bosses like Desmina where you need 2 tanks etc. For me it was irrelevant from the start if you can exchange double chrono + double druid.

 

> I don't understand why this community acts like quickness-dps FB is the only viable build for this comp. Just don't be stupid, easy.

 

The people you are referring to have never written anything in this thread let alone read it. If you go further almost every comp can kill raid bosses but that's not the point for me and others.

[Yasi.9065]

> @"Ertrak.9506" said:

> I find it amazing people even need a guide for this.

>

> I also don't understand why people are so scared of "4 heal" comp, ie 2 harrier/giver boon-FB 1 harrier renegade, 1 druid (/group might stacker). Pre nerfs, double chrono double druids comps were already effectively 4 zero-dps supports.

 

Ofc that depends on players skilllevels, but for more experienced raiders 4 healer is way too much healing on most raidbosses. So why not have one flexible firebrand that can either go healbrand or quickbrand or with new stats maybe even powerbrand. Thats just like old off-chrono, just.. better. And switching between heal food and condi food isnt quite as painful as having to waste 45min left on power food. So this solution is very reasonable, and helps you quite a lot on bosses like gorseval, MO or sloth, where you get punished with additional mechanics if you cant kill fast enough.

This is actually one of the most attractive aspects of this whole comp. So dumbing it down to 4healers kinda hurts my soul. But if you need that safety net... or want it... its also possible without having to change much.

 

> @"Ertrak.9506" said:

> Utility? still the same. 600-range pull-> GS, CC-> bane signet, sh5, hammer 4, tome 1-3. Ofc portals is still locked to mesmer, but dps mesmers aren't hard to find and both mirages and power chronos and can drop a utility for portal with next to zero loss. The comparison to previous double heal comps is completely in favor of fb-ren: more cc, more healing, more cleanse, (now) more boons, more stability/aegis.

 

Thats a very superficial view on mesmer pull. Focus pull is NOT projectiles, hence can not be blocked by mobs with defiance bar and it pulls on one single spot instead of around the guardian pulling. Also focus pull is ranged, as a guard with GS you have to run to the spot first that you want to pull to. Not really the same level, at all.

And yes, the rest I posted above and it was my main motiviation to even start this thread. Especially for pugs the comp is so much better fitting, even without switching between healbrand and firebrand its a dps increase over 2xchrono, 2xdruid by purely higher scholar and boon uptimes alone.

 

> @"Ertrak.9506" said:

> I don't understand why this community acts like quickness-dps FB is the only viable build for this comp. Just don't be stupid, easy.

 

Im sorry, but what I did was just translate the most commonly used comp in statics pre-chrono-nerf into fb/ren comp. You misunderstood something there. All the comps I posted above are not just viable, they are solid. Every raidgrp has to pick the one that suits their mentality best.

 

The suicide comp is suited for statics that really didnt run any healing except for condi druid before. Even then its imo not possible to get consistent kills with it in w5, but Im sure someone will post a video sometime in the future to disprove this ;)

 

The 2healer comp is for statics that killed all bosses before with only a harrier druid.

 

The 3healer comp is for experienced monday fullclear lfg squads (500+LI on EU).

 

The 4healer comp is for inexperienced or once-a-week raiders that dont mind spending 30-60min more on a fullclear than the 3 healer comp. (Yes, the difference is actually that small)

 

/edit:

I get your point, I really do. What a lot of the raiding community cant wrap their head around - yet - is that just because its an additional potential healer, it doesnt mean its less dps. Chrono could assist somewhat with healing before, but it was less than 3k healing/sec even with full harriers (yes, I tried it ;p ) simply because you are very limited in what you can bring to heal. Dps on chronos got shifted heavily towards phantasms, but because you couldnt bring those due to having all your utility skills and weapons choices dictated by boss mechanics or boon generation, the dps on buffchronos has been mediocre at best for basically nearly the whole past year.

 

Before nerf, the only things chrono could bring to raids was 100% boonuptime on nearly all boons, and massive cc. After nerf its "only" boon extension of druid's or herald's boons, quickness+alacrity and good cc. Dps is increased slightly because you can run domi instead of chaos and chronophantasm now.

 

So with 2 chronos, 1 druid you get 2x okay dps and good cc, with 1x meh dps, meh cc and enough healing.

 

With fb/ren 2healer comp (which is the pendant to 2xchrono, 1x druid) you get 2x good dps (on level with tactics bs) with meh cc, 1x good healing with very good cc but totally negligible dps and 1x meh dps, meh cc and enough healing. Yes you have to add another "supporter" to it and loose 1 top dps slot for it. But (except on kc) the dps of the quickbrands is enough to offset that, AND you gain another burst healer that will help you with scholar uptime. If you instead play with a dps renegade (though imo its not worth it atm... because you need 80% boon duration) you overtake 2chrono, 1druid comp.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

My dream of herald boon support tank ☺

[Yasi.9065]

> @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> My dream of herald boon support tank ☺

 

Have to tell you, as long as theres no frost spirit attached to that build... not going to happen in lfg squads. In statics its a viable option because slb (power and condi) is able to bring frostspirit. Though it would only really shine with 2 quickbrands and for that the mightstacking on herald takes way too long thanks to 1sec cooldown on shared empowerment. For optimal boons you'd probably want to add a tempest to the mix that just doubles your might at the beginning of each phase with wh4. But then its getting very restrictive in terms of comp and gameplay, also something a lot of statics dont want.

 

Boon herald - both harrier and berserker - is the best example of how anet just simply doesnt balance boons to content, but rather around profession design. You can overstack protection/swiftness/fury to last forever, but the one really important boon... you barely reach 25 on and only after around 20seconds. Really bad design. Because you need additional might stacks for boon herald to work. But if you bring a druid, then you dont need boon herald. Same with tempest.

 

And all of that, simply because of a 1sec cooldown on shared empowerment.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

> @"Yasi.9065" said:

> > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> > My dream of herald boon support tank ☺

>

> Have to tell you, as long as theres no frost spirit attached to that build... not going to happen in lfg squads. In statics its a viable option because slb (power and condi) is able to bring frostspirit. Though it would only really shine with 2 quickbrands and for that the mightstacking on herald takes way too long thanks to 1sec cooldown on shared empowerment. For optimal boons you'd probably want to add a tempest to the mix that just doubles your might at the beginning of each phase with wh4. But then its getting very restrictive in terms of comp and gameplay, also something a lot of statics dont want.

>

> Boon herald - both harrier and berserker - is the best example of how anet just simply doesnt balance boons to content, but rather around profession design. You can overstack protection/swiftness/fury to last forever, but the one really important boon... you barely reach 25 on and only after around 20seconds. Really bad design. Because you need additional might stacks for boon herald to work. But if you bring a druid, then you dont need boon herald. Same with tempest.

>

> And all of that, simply because of a 1sec cooldown on shared empowerment.

 

Frost spirit is issue then XD joke but i just want my commander leadership runes amor of my herald to be usefull

[Yasi.9065]

There seems to be this misconception that you "sacrifice" dps with a fb/ren comp compared to chrono/druid comp. At least thats what Ive been told pretty much everytime now if I bring this comp up somewhere.

But thats (nearly) not the case, as Id like to show with some numbers on VG:

- Banners: 13k

- Druid: 3k

- TankChrono: 4k

- OffChrono: 10k

- DPS: 20k

- TankFB: 3k

- Quickness FB: 14k

- Power Alac Renegade: 10k (+ kalla elite -> 1k per person -> 5k)

- Harrier Alac Renegade: 2k (+5k kalla elite)

 

So, for a "classic" speedclear comp, that would be 2 chronos, 1 druid, 1 bs, 6 dps. 13+3+4+10+6x20 = 150k dps. A good tank will get pretty close to offchrono, so for the riskiest comp, youll get around 5k more -> 155k dps.

The fb/ren pendant would be 2 quickness FB, 1 power alac renegade, 1 druid, 1 bs, 5xdps. 13+3+2x14+15+5x20 = 159k

 

Lets take a look at the "lfg squad meta" for monday raids, 2 chronos, 2 druids, 1 bs, 5 dps. 13+2x3+4+10+5x20 = 133k.

Now we compare it to tankfb, quickfb, druid, power alac renegade, bs, 5 dps. 13+3+3+14+15+5x20 = 148k.

 

And what about the most realistic lfg squad comp? 2 tank chronos, 2 druids, 1 bs, 5 dps. 13+2x3+2x4+5x20 = 127k.

On fb/ren that would be tankfb, healfb, druid, power alac renegade, bs, 5 dps. 13+3+3+3+15+5x20 = 137k.

Or it could be harrier alac renegade and quickfb. 13+3+3+7+14+5x20 = 140k.

 

Last but not least, the maximum support comp numbers, just to make a point. I wouldnt ever run this because its ridiculously much overheal. Tankfb+healfb+harrier alac renegade+druid+bs+dps -> 13+3+3+3+7+5x20 = 129k.

 

As you can see, even with that totally ridiculous comp you still get more dps than with 2x druid, 2x tank chrono... the comp that has been standard for at least a year now on VG in 99% of all lfg squads Ive joined.

 

You loose 1 dps slot on the speedclear comp, which shows on bosses like cairn and largos, where a dps slot weighs just soo much more (30k+ mirage or renegade). So, yes... with that comp and IF everyone runs best-in-slot dps build and IF everyone reaches top dps, you loose dps when trying the same with the corresponding fb/ren comp.

 

However, thats a comp that only a few statics run. The big majority runs 2 healers, and thats where fb/ren pulls ahead. Everyone not running the most aggressive speedclear comp really should take a good look at fb/ren comps. They bring a lot more support, more dps and easier gameplay. The only thing fb/ren is missing..... is a portal for w3. But then, power chrono is quite nice there.