Decreased quality of pugs

[Ok I Did It.2854]

Are you really surprised by this, most pugs dont get a look in now a days, ive seen some toxic players in this game in fractals so much so ive left a group because of the way they treat other players, you have newer players trying to work their way through fractals, they eventually get to T4's and see 100kp fail=kick etc etc, so they take a chance get into a T4 fractal, maybe see mechanics they arent used to, fail them, and get kicked from the group, or they get the good old, OMG your DPS is 2k lower than i want = kick,

 

I know this isnt always the case but ive seen cases like this, and them players just dont come back, its just not worth the hassle, hell its gotten so bad i know a training guild who doesnt even take the new players in now, they run statics within the guild,

 

Point is, with no one teaching or willing to help the newer / less experienced player do this content your selection of players to select from will get less and less and the months go by ( the same thing is happening in raids, only now your seeing an uptick in guilds willing to train newer players, as if they dont, the content is dead in months and Anet wont continue to invest in dead content sPvP/WvW anyone )

 

There are some great pugs out there who enjoy working as a team and i commend them for that, but i have found they are few and far between.

[Alaia Skyhawk.5064]

> @"Ok I Did It.2854" said:

> Are you really surprised by this, most pugs dont get a look in now a days, ive seen some toxic players in this game in fractals so much so ive left a group because of the way they treat other players, you have newer players trying to work their way through fractals, they eventually get to T4's and see 100kp fail=kick etc etc, so they take a chance get into a T4 fractal, maybe see mechanics they arent used to, fail them, and get kicked from the group, or they get the good old, OMG your DPS is 2k lower than i want = kick,

 

I agree with this. Never been one to focus on meta builds, although I'll often start out with one as a framework and tweak it to my play-style for professions I'm less familiar with. I took a break from fractals for a while and returned to doing them recently. The LFG is awash with demands for chronos or this or that specific comp and I can only imagine how disheartening that is for anyone new to T4s. Last night I joined a group asking for Chrono + 2xDPS, I came in on a mirage as a dps and both people already in the party immediately presumed that I would switch to chrono (I hate playing chrono and always have) Cue the group leader whining like a 5 year old and saying mirage condi dps is crap (I spike to and sustain about 40+ torment stacks in 3 sec or so and regularly hit 6k+ burning and 8k+ confusion on top of the 13-14k torment ticks I do if I have 25 might and not counting all the normal direct damage I do) sufficient to say I called him an idiot, left the group just before last boss of Swampland (since he was trying to get the group to kick me anyway), and cleared Swampland with another group who did NOT have a chrono in it, just a druid, and got partway through the next fractal while whining-boy's group was still in LFG waiting for a chrono to join.

 

And they wanted a chrono because it's "faster" to do fractals with one (facepalm)

 

Before I took my break from fractals any run I did almost never had a chrono in it, my groups never expected to have one although if we got a nice friendly one it was always a bonus. Never had any issues clearing T4 dailies, and any additional time it may have took was usually less that the time we'd have sat on our butts waiting for ppl to join a specific comp setup. All we had to do was be smart with what utilities we brought with us, and now and then there'd be people like myself who have more than one character for T4s and who re-roll if we spot the group is having issues with a specific section or with a specific instability that another of our characters could solve. At present I tend to play my mirage (since it's my newest for T4s and having a blast with it) but also have a DH condi/hybrid I bring when trashmob pressure is an issue, my Tempest condi/healer if the group needs a touch more healing + some damage mitigation, and a Spellbreaker CC Junkie if a group is having issues with breakbars on specific fractal bosses. None of my builds are the "meta", but I've tailored them all for my play-style and I know I'll get the job done with them and have fun at the same time. Which for me is the whole point of fractals, since I could make gold as fast as it elsewhere. I play them because I enjoy them, even if some of the new instabilities are annoying until you find ways to take advantage of them.

 

The new No Pain No Gain is hilarious if you're on a Mesmer of any type or on a Spellbreaker. Boonrip lifesteal really ruins the day of the poor mobs.

 

But yeah, essay over, and thumbs-up to all you fractal peeps who are chill and do fractals to have fun while doing them :)

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Alaia Skyhawk.5064" said:

> > @"Ok I Did It.2854" said:

> > Are you really surprised by this, most pugs dont get a look in now a days, ive seen some toxic players in this game in fractals so much so ive left a group because of the way they treat other players, you have newer players trying to work their way through fractals, they eventually get to T4's and see 100kp fail=kick etc etc, so they take a chance get into a T4 fractal, maybe see mechanics they arent used to, fail them, and get kicked from the group, or they get the good old, OMG your DPS is 2k lower than i want = kick,

>

> I agree with this. Never been one to focus on meta builds, although I'll often start out with one as a framework and tweak it to my play-style for professions I'm less familiar with. I took a break from fractals for a while and returned to doing them recently. The LFG is awash with demands for chronos or this or that specific comp and I can only imagine how disheartening that is for anyone new to T4s. Last night I joined a group asking for Chrono + 2xDPS, I came in on a mirage as a dps and both people already in the party immediately presumed that I would switch to chrono (I hate playing chrono and always have) Cue the group leader whining like a 5 year old and saying mirage condi dps is kitten (I spike to and sustain about 40+ torment stacks in 3 sec or so and regularly hit 6k+ burning and 8k+ confusion on top of the 13-14k torment ticks I do if I have 25 might and not counting all the normal direct damage I do) sufficient to say I called him an idiot, left the group just before last boss of Swampland (since he was trying to get the group to kick me anyway), and cleared Swampland with another group who did NOT have a chrono in it, just a druid, and got partway through the next fractal while whining-boy's group was still in LFG waiting for a chrono to join.

>

 

I'm sorry, but mirage cleave dps is okayish and its spike dps certainly is not stellar (please don't come here with your "I see xyz numbers nonsense", either tell us concrete arcdps numbers, or leave your assumptions as to how your damage is out because most often people are clueless as to how they actually perform unless they run a damage meter). Quite a few power dps will outperform a mirage in both categories (Soulbeast, Dragonhunter, Weaver, Holo), a power chrono will outperform a mirage on single target while bringing boon removal. That Dragonhunter power dps will start his rotation off at 80k dps the initial 4-6 seconds single target (actual arcdps numbers by the way, not me guessing). That's basically the time your Mirage slowly ramps up to 20k (both since it's ramp up time is sinigificantly lower and since it's a condi dps).

 

Unfortunately there is a ton of terrible mirages on top of that.

 

I am fine with having a mirage along, but I will make sure that he provides an adequate damage depending on the skill level of the group I am in (obviously way lower when introducing guildies or doing support/training runs).

 

> @"Alaia Skyhawk.5064" said:

> And they wanted a chrono because it's "faster" to do fractals with one (facepalm)

>

 

Yes, a well player chrono providing alacrity and quickness to a group which is lacking both will speedup fractals. That's not imaginary science, it is quite literally the meta.

 

Now if you want to argue that a bad chrono or a group which does not utilize the chronos wells will be slower, sure that is true.

 

> @"Alaia Skyhawk.5064" said:

> Before I took my break from fractals any run I did almost never had a chrono in it, my groups never expected to have one although if we got a nice friendly one it was always a bonus. Never had any issues clearing T4 dailies, and any additional time it may have took was usually less that the time we'd have sat on our butts waiting for ppl to join a specific comp setup. All we had to do was be smart with what utilities we brought with us, and now and then there'd be people like myself who have more than one character for T4s and who re-roll if we spot the group is having issues with a specific section or with a specific instability that another of our characters could solve.

 

No one said chrono is required to clear the content. No one is saying alacrity and quickness are required to clear the content. Having one bringing the other (or a variation on this with say renegade and firebrand) will boost the groups performance.

 

You are correct though, clearing fractals does not require any of that and many groups are simply reproducing meta compositions in an attempt at making their run smoother.

 

> @"Alaia Skyhawk.5064" said:

> At present I tend to play my mirage (since it's my newest for T4s and having a blast with it) but also have a DH condi/hybrid I bring when trashmob pressure is an issue, my Tempest condi/healer if the group needs a touch more healing + some damage mitigation, and a Spellbreaker CC Junkie if a group is having issues with breakbars on specific fractal bosses. None of my builds are the "meta", but I've tailored them all for my play-style and I know I'll get the job done with them and have fun at the same time. Which for me is the whole point of fractals, since I could make gold as fast as it elsewhere. I play them because I enjoy them, even if some of the new instabilities are annoying until you find ways to take advantage of them.

>

> The new No Pain No Gain is hilarious if you're on a Mesmer of any type or on a Spellbreaker. Boonrip lifesteal really ruins the day of the poor mobs.

>

> But yeah, essay over, and thumbs-up to all you fractal peeps who are chill and do fractals to have fun while doing them :)

 

In the end, it comes down to this:

Some people want to build groups according to having all necessary boons and necessary utilities covered (cc bar break, enough cleave and single target damage). It is the attempt to at least maximize possible output from a composition standpoint since you can't know how good another player is. Obviously this can go terrible wrong if the people playing the classes are not good.

 

There is amazing and very skilled off meta players. At the same time, there is terrible off meta players and having a group composed of those AND no proper synergy is the greatest nightmare performance wise one can run into.

[Alaia Skyhawk.5064]

My mirage numbers are based on fractals where there are no/fewer large gatherings of mobs, and more instances of fights where you get to focus mostly on 1-2 targets. aka mirage axes are spread among fewer mobs/higher average damage on those mobs. For what groups do crop up, I strategically use my shatters to maximise my damage across them. For fractals where there are lots of large/fairly large groups of mobs, I use my DH because nothing else I have cleaves trash in seconds like my DH does, none of my other three (Mirage/Tempest/Spellbreaker) even come close. For fractals like Molten Boss, I may re-role to one of my other characters for the last fight since my DH spikes well but dps falls off a bit on longer fights with single targets while the others have a more even sustain.

 

I never said my Mirage was good at all fractals lol, just outlined that assuming someone's damage is low/sub-par based on profession isn't always correct ;)

 

I will readily admit that no matter what the profession, there will always be players that crop up who are terrible at using them/need more practice at them (I tend to make a point of offering tips/advice when I spot someone clearly new). I like the Mirage for Swampland for two reasons. My mirage's ability to basically ignore most of Bloomhunger's hard-hitting attacks by dodging means if the group has a couple of people who keep getting squished then I'm often able to res them even if he's still targeting me, my other 3 Fractal characters would have trouble. The other reason is that most of the last fight I'm either focused on one target (Bloomhunger or the Champ Oakheart) or I'm in the middle of easily squished masses of ghost animals which thanks to my sigil refill my endurance every time one of them I've tagged dies, enabling me to constantly proc out mirage axes/avoid damage while spawning 3 clones rapidly which I then shatter into the ghost animals' faces for cleave to kill them and allowing me to pump out 3 clones again ready to either continue with either spawning my max number of mirage axes per dodge or the next shatter. Because of this I can spare a good part of my attention keeping an eye on the other players in the group/support or quickly res them as needed. :)

[FrizzFreston.5290]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"Alaia Skyhawk.5064" said:

> > > @"Ok I Did It.2854" said:

> > > Are you really surprised by this, most pugs dont get a look in now a days, ive seen some toxic players in this game in fractals so much so ive left a group because of the way they treat other players, you have newer players trying to work their way through fractals, they eventually get to T4's and see 100kp fail=kick etc etc, so they take a chance get into a T4 fractal, maybe see mechanics they arent used to, fail them, and get kicked from the group, or they get the good old, OMG your DPS is 2k lower than i want = kick,

> >

> > I agree with this. Never been one to focus on meta builds, although I'll often start out with one as a framework and tweak it to my play-style for professions I'm less familiar with. I took a break from fractals for a while and returned to doing them recently. The LFG is awash with demands for chronos or this or that specific comp and I can only imagine how disheartening that is for anyone new to T4s. Last night I joined a group asking for Chrono + 2xDPS, I came in on a mirage as a dps and both people already in the party immediately presumed that I would switch to chrono (I hate playing chrono and always have) Cue the group leader whining like a 5 year old and saying mirage condi dps is kitten (I spike to and sustain about 40+ torment stacks in 3 sec or so and regularly hit 6k+ burning and 8k+ confusion on top of the 13-14k torment ticks I do if I have 25 might and not counting all the normal direct damage I do) sufficient to say I called him an idiot, left the group just before last boss of Swampland (since he was trying to get the group to kick me anyway), and cleared Swampland with another group who did NOT have a chrono in it, just a druid, and got partway through the next fractal while whining-boy's group was still in LFG waiting for a chrono to join.

> >

>

> I'm sorry, but mirage cleave dps is okayish and its spike dps certainly is not stellar (please don't come here with your "I see xyz numbers nonsense", either tell us concrete arcdps numbers, or leave your assumptions as to how your damage is out because most often people are clueless as to how they actually perform unless they run a damage meter). Quite a few power dps will outperform a mirage in both categories (Soulbeast, Dragonhunter, Weaver, Holo), a power chrono will outperform a mirage on single target while bringing boon removal. That Dragonhunter power dps will start his rotation off at 80k dps the initial 4-6 seconds single target (actual arcdps numbers by the way, not me guessing). That's basically the time your Mirage slowly ramps up to 20k (both since it's ramp up time is sinigificantly lower and since it's a condi dps).

>

> Unfortunately there is a ton of terrible mirages on top of that.

>

> I am fine with having a mirage along, but I will make sure that he provides an adequate damage depending on the skill level of the group I am in (obviously way lower when introducing guildies or doing support/training runs).

>

> > @"Alaia Skyhawk.5064" said:

> > And they wanted a chrono because it's "faster" to do fractals with one (facepalm)

> >

>

> Yes, a well player chrono providing alacrity and quickness to a group which is lacking both will speedup fractals. That's not imaginary science, it is quite literally the meta.

>

> Now if you want to argue that a bad chrono or a group which does not utilize the chronos wells will be slower, sure that is true.

>

> > @"Alaia Skyhawk.5064" said:

> > Before I took my break from fractals any run I did almost never had a chrono in it, my groups never expected to have one although if we got a nice friendly one it was always a bonus. Never had any issues clearing T4 dailies, and any additional time it may have took was usually less that the time we'd have sat on our butts waiting for ppl to join a specific comp setup. All we had to do was be smart with what utilities we brought with us, and now and then there'd be people like myself who have more than one character for T4s and who re-roll if we spot the group is having issues with a specific section or with a specific instability that another of our characters could solve.

>

> No one said chrono is required to clear the content. No one is saying alacrity and quickness are required to clear the content. Having one bringing the other (or a variation on this with say renegade and firebrand) will boost the groups performance.

>

> You are correct though, clearing fractals does not require any of that and many groups are simply reproducing meta compositions in an attempt at making their run smoother.

>

> > @"Alaia Skyhawk.5064" said:

> > At present I tend to play my mirage (since it's my newest for T4s and having a blast with it) but also have a DH condi/hybrid I bring when trashmob pressure is an issue, my Tempest condi/healer if the group needs a touch more healing + some damage mitigation, and a Spellbreaker CC Junkie if a group is having issues with breakbars on specific fractal bosses. None of my builds are the "meta", but I've tailored them all for my play-style and I know I'll get the job done with them and have fun at the same time. Which for me is the whole point of fractals, since I could make gold as fast as it elsewhere. I play them because I enjoy them, even if some of the new instabilities are annoying until you find ways to take advantage of them.

> >

> > The new No Pain No Gain is hilarious if you're on a Mesmer of any type or on a Spellbreaker. Boonrip lifesteal really ruins the day of the poor mobs.

> >

> > But yeah, essay over, and thumbs-up to all you fractal peeps who are chill and do fractals to have fun while doing them :)

>

> In the end, it comes down to this:

> Some people want to build groups according to having all necessary boons and necessary utilities covered (cc bar break, enough cleave and single target damage). It is the attempt to at least maximize possible output from a composition standpoint since you can't know how good another player is. Obviously this can go terrible wrong if the people playing the classes are not good.

>

> There is amazing and very skilled off meta players. At the same time, there is terrible off meta players and having a group composed of those AND no proper synergy is the greatest nightmare performance wise one can run into.

 

Its hilarious to see your theorethical "outperformance" of X over Y, because DPS this and that. Which may be true, but actually finding the people that can get those values and actually working together like with certain comps is as practical as finding the exact right tool for the one screw in a box of a thousand tools while every normal person would have opened the kitchen drawer and used a knife.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"Alaia Skyhawk.5064" said:

> > > > @"Ok I Did It.2854" said:

> > > > Are you really surprised by this, most pugs dont get a look in now a days, ive seen some toxic players in this game in fractals so much so ive left a group because of the way they treat other players, you have newer players trying to work their way through fractals, they eventually get to T4's and see 100kp fail=kick etc etc, so they take a chance get into a T4 fractal, maybe see mechanics they arent used to, fail them, and get kicked from the group, or they get the good old, OMG your DPS is 2k lower than i want = kick,

> > >

> > > I agree with this. Never been one to focus on meta builds, although I'll often start out with one as a framework and tweak it to my play-style for professions I'm less familiar with. I took a break from fractals for a while and returned to doing them recently. The LFG is awash with demands for chronos or this or that specific comp and I can only imagine how disheartening that is for anyone new to T4s. Last night I joined a group asking for Chrono + 2xDPS, I came in on a mirage as a dps and both people already in the party immediately presumed that I would switch to chrono (I hate playing chrono and always have) Cue the group leader whining like a 5 year old and saying mirage condi dps is kitten (I spike to and sustain about 40+ torment stacks in 3 sec or so and regularly hit 6k+ burning and 8k+ confusion on top of the 13-14k torment ticks I do if I have 25 might and not counting all the normal direct damage I do) sufficient to say I called him an idiot, left the group just before last boss of Swampland (since he was trying to get the group to kick me anyway), and cleared Swampland with another group who did NOT have a chrono in it, just a druid, and got partway through the next fractal while whining-boy's group was still in LFG waiting for a chrono to join.

> > >

> >

> > I'm sorry, but mirage cleave dps is okayish and its spike dps certainly is not stellar (please don't come here with your "I see xyz numbers nonsense", either tell us concrete arcdps numbers, or leave your assumptions as to how your damage is out because most often people are clueless as to how they actually perform unless they run a damage meter). Quite a few power dps will outperform a mirage in both categories (Soulbeast, Dragonhunter, Weaver, Holo), a power chrono will outperform a mirage on single target while bringing boon removal. That Dragonhunter power dps will start his rotation off at 80k dps the initial 4-6 seconds single target (actual arcdps numbers by the way, not me guessing). That's basically the time your Mirage slowly ramps up to 20k (both since it's ramp up time is sinigificantly lower and since it's a condi dps).

> >

> > Unfortunately there is a ton of terrible mirages on top of that.

> >

> > I am fine with having a mirage along, but I will make sure that he provides an adequate damage depending on the skill level of the group I am in (obviously way lower when introducing guildies or doing support/training runs).

> >

> > > @"Alaia Skyhawk.5064" said:

> > > And they wanted a chrono because it's "faster" to do fractals with one (facepalm)

> > >

> >

> > Yes, a well player chrono providing alacrity and quickness to a group which is lacking both will speedup fractals. That's not imaginary science, it is quite literally the meta.

> >

> > Now if you want to argue that a bad chrono or a group which does not utilize the chronos wells will be slower, sure that is true.

> >

> > > @"Alaia Skyhawk.5064" said:

> > > Before I took my break from fractals any run I did almost never had a chrono in it, my groups never expected to have one although if we got a nice friendly one it was always a bonus. Never had any issues clearing T4 dailies, and any additional time it may have took was usually less that the time we'd have sat on our butts waiting for ppl to join a specific comp setup. All we had to do was be smart with what utilities we brought with us, and now and then there'd be people like myself who have more than one character for T4s and who re-roll if we spot the group is having issues with a specific section or with a specific instability that another of our characters could solve.

> >

> > No one said chrono is required to clear the content. No one is saying alacrity and quickness are required to clear the content. Having one bringing the other (or a variation on this with say renegade and firebrand) will boost the groups performance.

> >

> > You are correct though, clearing fractals does not require any of that and many groups are simply reproducing meta compositions in an attempt at making their run smoother.

> >

> > > @"Alaia Skyhawk.5064" said:

> > > At present I tend to play my mirage (since it's my newest for T4s and having a blast with it) but also have a DH condi/hybrid I bring when trashmob pressure is an issue, my Tempest condi/healer if the group needs a touch more healing + some damage mitigation, and a Spellbreaker CC Junkie if a group is having issues with breakbars on specific fractal bosses. None of my builds are the "meta", but I've tailored them all for my play-style and I know I'll get the job done with them and have fun at the same time. Which for me is the whole point of fractals, since I could make gold as fast as it elsewhere. I play them because I enjoy them, even if some of the new instabilities are annoying until you find ways to take advantage of them.

> > >

> > > The new No Pain No Gain is hilarious if you're on a Mesmer of any type or on a Spellbreaker. Boonrip lifesteal really ruins the day of the poor mobs.

> > >

> > > But yeah, essay over, and thumbs-up to all you fractal peeps who are chill and do fractals to have fun while doing them :)

> >

> > In the end, it comes down to this:

> > Some people want to build groups according to having all necessary boons and necessary utilities covered (cc bar break, enough cleave and single target damage). It is the attempt to at least maximize possible output from a composition standpoint since you can't know how good another player is. Obviously this can go terrible wrong if the people playing the classes are not good.

> >

> > There is amazing and very skilled off meta players. At the same time, there is terrible off meta players and having a group composed of those AND no proper synergy is the greatest nightmare performance wise one can run into.

>

> Its hilarious to see your theorethical "outperformance" of X over Y, because DPS this and that. Which may be true, but actually finding the people that can get those values and actually working together like with certain comps is as practical as finding the exact right tool for the one screw in a box of a thousand tools while every normal person would have opened the kitchen drawer and used a knife.

 

Yet here we are, multiple groups of fractal runner currently looking for chronos or druids or bannerslaves.

 

You can question the reasoning and rational behind why people would not take sub-optimal groups, but in the end, many do and are willing to wait. Feel free to argue with each and every one of them, or accept realities of how many people approach certain situations and their desire in optimizing their chances of success.

 

Experienced players know exactly when they would be willing to not take certain classes, taking voluntarily a hit in efficiency. For example, a heal Firebrand in a group with 4 dps (thus losing out on alacrity) works very well too. Does that make most inexperienced PUG groups try that? No.

 

That theoretical output of X over Y by the way is quite high unfortunately (which is an entire different argument about if quickness and alacrity might be to powerful as boons) and can increase a groups performance by 30-40% alone.

 

Ironically the players who are most able to break the meta by running off meta comps, fully understand the meta build they are not running for their class. Playing an off-meta build for the sake of playing an off-meta build does not automatically bump you into that skill level though.

[TheOrlyFactor.8341]

* Quality

* PUGs

 

Pick one.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"TheOrlyFactor.8341" said:

> * Quality

> * PUGs

>

> Pick one.

 

i prefer

 

* play with friendly people and not fret about performance

* play with people that value performance over people.

[Henry.5713]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > @"TheOrlyFactor.8341" said:

> > * Quality

> > * PUGs

> >

> > Pick one.

>

> i prefer

>

> * play with friendly people and not fret about performance

> * play with people that value performance over people.

 

PuGs

 

* Value your own time

* Don't value your own time

 

Statics / Friendlist groups

 

* Play with like minded people

* Play with people who neither match your skill level nor your personality