Big Big Nerfs

[syszery.1592]

> @"Tormod the Fox.2368" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > Players wishes rotation since release of the game:

> > - 1 step: Other people deal to much damage! Nerf and increase survivability!

> > - 2 step: Bunker are awful to fight! Nerf and increase damage!

> > - Return to step 1

> >

> > Possible variations (to spice things up over the years):

> > - Conditions damage are cancer! nerf! <-> Condition damage are useless! buff!

> > - CC are irrelevant! buff please! <-> CC are to strong! nerf!

> > - Range damage are to weak! <-> range damage are to strong!

> > - ... etc.

> >

> > Let's be honest, it was possible to 1 shot players at launch and it's still possible, there is nothing new to that. It was also possible to perma stealth, have an awful lot of active defense, perma CC... etc. The only thing that objectively really changed is how easy it is now to gain boons, and ANet said that they were looking into balancing boons.

>

> I like how you blame players instead of the game company that refuses to balance. Let's be honest here; Anet is totally focused on PvE, and they can not even get that right.

> Btw, some of your steps are misleading. Bunkers were never a **huge problem** until HoT. Same thing with all of your so called player's 'wishes'. I enjoy you putting on the illusion that power creep is not real. /sarcasm. At launch the reaction time and the player's experience was much more valuable than now. I can play condi mirage 1v2 normally, but a Soulbeast can still stealth and 1hit KO me with Sic 'em...

 

The part about bunker is completely wrong iirc: For example D/D Ele (core) was extremely strong for a long time in WvW roaming. You could stack all offensive boons easily (and might gave +35 Power). This allowed you to build very tanky and still deal good damage.

 

> At launch the reaction time and the player's experience was much more valuable than now.

 

Actually, this is true. But not in the way you think: There weren't so many passives in the game at launch that saved you if you messed up (like now) so _dodge or die_ it was.

 

To sum up: The cycle mentioned above is quite accurate.

 

On a side note: For all the people who claim that perma-stealth didn't exist:

 

https://www.youtube.com/user/bemeric1

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Tormod the Fox.2368" said:

> I like how you blame players instead of the game company that refuses to balance. Let's be honest here; Anet is totally focused on PvE, and they can not even get that right.

> Btw, some of your steps are misleading. Bunkers were never a **huge problem** until HoT. Same thing with all of your so called player's 'wishes'. I enjoy you putting on the illusion that power creep is not real. /sarcasm. At launch the reaction time and the player's experience was much more valuable than now. I can play condi mirage 1v2 normally, but a Soulbeast can still stealth and 1hit KO me with Sic 'em...

 

That was a good laugh, thanks.

 

I've seen the game evolve since release and I can garantee you that unlike what you think most of the balance change were done to satisfy PvP and not PvE. That said, some people and even Anet seemed to think that WvW is some sort of PvE, so I can't really blame you.

 

Like syszery said, elementalists were nerfed in the core game due to the fact that their high mobility made them effective bunker. The warrior's sustain took countless nerfs and buffs to become what it is right now, the necromancer created an uproar each time he could bunker (first minions and then spectrals), mesmer even used to have a nasty trait combo going this way... etc. All of this only in the core game.

 

I'm pretty sure you also know that ANet nerfed stability to it's current state for the sake of PvP and not PvE. Would you believe me if I were to tell you that aoe (damage/boons) used to not have max target cap and it was nerfed for the sake of players smashing other players? Do you think that mobs ever asked for thiefs damage nerfs? Do you think that ranger's shout "guard!" was changed in the core game because it was to efficient in PvE? Do you think they put obvious tells on weapon skills for the sake of PvE?

 

I will tell you some "secrets", ranger's core pets used to be very nasty against players but also a lot squishier, I've had a lot of fun sending birds and cats on top of walls in WvW to one virtually shot some defending players. I've also abused the previous 3k leash range of the ranger's pet to destroy some siege machine. I've faced condi bunker warriors that were disgustingly unkillable. I don't count how many time I've been killed by a stealthed thief in 2-3s while using my necromancer in full soldier gear. You can't even imagine how much I enjoyed playing the shattercat mesmer in both power and condi build. You also don't seem to know how frustrating it was to face retaliation in it's first version. Would you even believe how strong slick shoes used to be on engineer?... etc. And we are still talking about the vanilla game.

 

When HoT kicked in the core profession lost a lot of "power". And with HoT, players encountered the same issues again: Unkillable Chrono bunker, Perma CC scrappers, necromancer that actually dealt damage without having to be downed (That remind me the core necromancer downbuild... Yeah that was OP!)... etc. Everything tune down and up till PoF, for what? PvE? Yes, since HoT there actually were some PvE balance change but far fewer than the PvP changes. Even giving necromancers more boon corruption was done for the very sake of the PvP community.

[Arcaedus.7290]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"Arcaedus.7290" said:

> > > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > > @"Arcaedus.7290" said:

> > > > > @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > > >

> > > > > But is a combo technically a "one shot" ?

> > > >

> > > > Been saying this for ages, but there are some things that are "effectively" one-hit KOs. If a single attack that OHKOs finishes casting in say 0.5 seconds, and then there is a combo that involves all or mostly instant-casts and the entire combo comes out in 0.5 seconds, then the combo is effectively a OHKO (has just as much or just as little counterplay as an actual OHKO) and should be treated as such when reviewing balance.

> > > Then the guardian need to be nerfed to ground.

> >

> > There are also things we call "conditional" one-hit KOs. These are OHKOs but only under the condition that they require a lot of setup (which takes time) and provides the target time to counter-play. An example of a conditional one-hit KO is DJ on deadeye.

> >

> > The core guard burst is the same way. The burst that actually 1-shots people is focus 5, mighty blow, smite condi, and JI all chained together. Of those only MB has a cast time which is 0.75s and reactable to on reflexes alone. As for focus 5, you literally have 4 seconds of an enormous tell and plenty of counterplay options. Guards who aren't trying to cheese OHKOs will most likely be hitting you with MB + smite condi combo in the middle of combat which is a bit harder to react to, especially if you've dodged, but that at most does around 9k damage in pvp - not a one-shot, and still avoidable on reflex.

> >

> > That being said, I wouldn't mind focus 5's damage being nerfed. It is a bit ridiculous and is cheese if you surprise some unaware player with it.

> A guard can kill within 0.3s of hitting judge. Just **boop** dead. Good luck reacting to that.

>

> Still, isnt it funny that it exist on classes that people dont cry nerf about all day long? In fact... is there any class that *cant* be classified to be capable of "one shotting" with various combos or high damage skills?

 

Sure, but if you are looking at a guard, and see them cast focus 5, their burst isn't going to land for another 4 seconds. If a guard is hitting you with some combo that doesn't involve focus 5, it's just not going to kill you.

 

Not arguing that it's balanced, just saying that there is definitely counterplay.

[Skotlex.7580]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> I've seen the game evolve since release and I can garantee you that unlike what you think most of the balance change were done to satisfy PvP and not PvE. That said, some people and even Anet seemed to think that WvW is some sort of PvE, so I can't really blame you.

 

from what I recall, the game was originally balanced around PvP until raids were introduced, and then balance started to shift around adjusting DPS between classes.

 

Also, there's a general feeling that elite specializations were designed with "cool factor" rather than actual balance (even more so with all the flashy sfx currently plaguing combat), which also feeds into this feeling that PvP isn't being taken into account anymore.

 

Frankly, when the developing company is called "ArenaNet", I would expect them to have a heavy emphasis on PvP content, yet it seems their focus waned for a while with each expansion release, and only tries to get back on track afterwards (sometimes it takes considerable time, too).

[Aplethoraof.2643]

> @"Ario.8964" said:

> > @"Aplethoraof.2643" said:

> > > @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > > > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > > > > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > > > > @"Safandula.8723" said:

> > > > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > > > > > Players: *"Powercreeped classes perma evade perma stealth perma block immortal impossible to kill can fight 1v5!"*

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Also players: *"I got insta killed nurf plox!"*

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Yea that's the problem with meta rn, everything can 1 shot u while being tanky af

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > .Like that is an oxymoron

> > > > > if everything is tanky..wouldnt that mean nothing gets one shot?

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > It simply means that every class possesses the ability to 1 shot through some sort of combo, they just sustain and spam defense until someone messes up and gets 1 shot by someone's combo or takes a small portion of that combo for significant damage. But outside of those combos, you can't kill people because too many defenses, heals, etc. Like others have said, Healing and defenses need to be nerfed to allow combat to end in a reasonable amount of time but damage has to be nerfed so that the fight is a more gradual loss of life rather than both are 100% now one of them is 0 in 2 seconds.

> > >

> > > But is a combo technically a "one shot" ?

> >

> > It's actually the opposite :disappointed:

> >

> > "they just sustain and spam defence until someone messes up and gets 1 shot by someone's combo or takes a small portion of that combo for significant damage."

> > So. . .like it should be? You dance around until one person messes up, then they either die or get hurt depending on the severity of their screw up.

>

> This is true. However, what the problem is is the pace of the damage. Combat needs to slow down a little and buffing sustain/defense doesn't help that. Reducing damage so that the combos that are happening are still strong and effective, but aren't guaranteed death wombo-combos is important. To compensate for the slowed pace of combat you have to reduce healing in the game to allow for people to die in a reasonable amount of time within the game that just lowered overall damage.

 

I'll be honest, I find combat to be fairly slow already. I'm not sure by how much people want it slowed, maybe you can have a special game-mode for people who want fights that can last longer than 5 mins (aprox 5 mins is the longest fight I've had, that was mid 2018). Personally, as much as I like it at times, I don't want every game to have dragon's dogma-length fights. Plus, a lot of people just don't have that much time on their hands.

 

It is fine, as it stands. If someone slips up, that should be the game over for them (till respawn :smile: ). If both people are on their game and manage their CDs effectively, a fight can last a really long time. But I find when people just don't do that, that contributes to a lot of fights being shorter in my experience.

 

I'd chalk that up to a L2P situation. Fights CAN last a really long time, both people just need to be on top of their game for that to happen.

[Tormod the Fox.2368]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Tormod the Fox.2368" said:

> > I like how you blame players instead of the game company that refuses to balance. Let's be honest here; Anet is totally focused on PvE, and they can not even get that right.

> > Btw, some of your steps are misleading. Bunkers were never a **huge problem** until HoT. Same thing with all of your so called player's 'wishes'. I enjoy you putting on the illusion that power creep is not real. /sarcasm. At launch the reaction time and the player's experience was much more valuable than now. I can play condi mirage 1v2 normally, but a Soulbeast can still stealth and 1hit KO me with Sic 'em...

>

> That was a good laugh, thanks.

>

> I've seen the game evolve since release and I can garantee you that unlike what you think most of the balance change were done to satisfy PvP and not PvE. That said, some people and even Anet seemed to think that WvW is some sort of PvE, so I can't really blame you.

>

> Like syszery said, elementalists were nerfed in the core game due to the fact that their high mobility made them effective bunker. The warrior's sustain took countless nerfs and buffs to become what it is right now, the necromancer created an uproar each time he could bunker (first minions and then spectrals), mesmer even used to have a nasty trait combo going this way... etc. All of this only in the core game.

>

> I'm pretty sure you also know that ANet nerfed stability to it's current state for the sake of PvP and not PvE. Would you believe me if I were to tell you that aoe (damage/boons) used to not have max target cap and it was nerfed for the sake of players smashing other players? Do you think that mobs ever asked for thiefs damage nerfs? Do you think that ranger's shout "guard!" was changed in the core game because it was to efficient in PvE? Do you think they put obvious tells on weapon skills for the sake of PvE?

>

> I will tell you some "secrets", ranger's core pets used to be very nasty against players but also a lot squishier, I've had a lot of fun sending birds and cats on top of walls in WvW to one virtually shot some defending players. I've also abused the previous 3k leash range of the ranger's pet to destroy some siege machine. I've faced condi bunker warriors that were disgustingly unkillable. I don't count how many time I've been killed by a stealthed thief in 2-3s while using my necromancer in full soldier gear. You can't even imagine how much I enjoyed playing the shattercat mesmer in both power and condi build. You also don't seem to know how frustrating it was to face retaliation in it's first version. Would you even believe how strong slick shoes used to be on engineer?... etc. And we are still talking about the vanilla game.

>

> When HoT kicked in the core profession lost a lot of "power". And with HoT, players encountered the same issues again: Unkillable Chrono bunker, Perma CC scrappers, necromancer that actually dealt damage without having to be downed (That remind me the core necromancer downbuild... Yeah that was OP!)... etc. Everything tune down and up till PoF, for what? PvE? Yes, since HoT there actually were some PvE balance change but far fewer than the PvP changes. Even giving necromancers more boon corruption was done for the very sake of the PvP community.

 

I think you misunderstood me. When I said they are focused on PvE, I really meant that **right now** they are more focused on PvE which would not include the past. I've been here since pre-launch, and I do know about most of the stuff you are ranting about. Bunkers were an issue in vanilla, but it got worse as you mentioned chronobunker.

 

**This game's balance has always been terrible**, but do not act like PvP and WvW are alive and well or being focused rn for balance. Anet has pretty much given up on both game modes. Henceforth, the **power-creep is alive** because of this. They are more focused on PvE becuase that is where the RPG people are who buy gems and play raids. I am not even talking about balance here; I'm saying as a whole content view PvE is more focused on.

 

But even now chronos are being nerfed because of PvE, so do not act like they are still focused on PvP changes. That was in the past. **Gw2 is not a pvp game; it never was and will never be.** I can rant and rant about pve balances too. How about staff ele/tempest/weaver? Are you telling me those constant years of nerfs to staff were for pvp? No, they were for pve, and now my ele hits with a wet noodle. How about that Ice Bow? It was an OP niche of a 3sec stun in pvp back in vanilla, but the whole kit's damage and viability was only ever nerfed for pve..

 

When I came from GW1, I thought it was going to be PvP focused just like it's predecessor, and for the first 3 months of game play I was in pvp exclusively. There were some balancing patches back then, but it was obvious that balancing the game was too difficult a task for Anet because of base design reasons. The only time they were truly focused on PvP was League Seasons 1-3, when they were trying to push esports, but that failed and now their attention is back to PvE.

 

You mentioned some of these WvW and/or PvP builds that were OP. I remember playing my awesome and fun perma-stealth trapper thief in WvW. The Balance was bad, and is worse now only becasue of elite specs.

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> Players wishes rotation since release of the game:

> - 1 step: Other people deal to much damage! Nerf and increase survivability!

> - 2 step: Bunker are awful to fight! Nerf and increase damage!

> - Return to step 1

>

> Possible variations (to spice things up over the years):

> - Conditions damage are cancer! nerf! <-> Condition damage are useless! buff!

> - CC are irrelevant! buff please! <-> CC are to strong! nerf!

> - Range damage are to weak! <-> range damage are to strong!

> - ... etc.

>

> Let's be honest, it was possible to 1 shot players at launch and it's still possible, there is nothing new to that. It was also possible to perma stealth, have an awful lot of active defense, perma CC... etc. The only thing that objectively really changed is how easy it is now to gain boons, and ANet said that they were looking into balancing boons.

 

People will always complain about what killed them, because the generic mentality in video games today is that you're always supposed to be favored to win no matter what because as the video game player/character you're the hero, and most games today are just pure power fantasies. People will always complain when something is slightly more optimal than what they play because people initially play what they think is fun and as soon as they're not in that power fantasy many people will proclaim things are terrible, rather than acknowledging their slightly less optimal conditions and recognizing it's not a big deal if it isn't, or even educate themselves as to why they lost or died at all. Complaints about balance are only justified when there are massive sways in topics like risk/reward, the concepts of "fairness" and "skill expression," or some astronomical disparity in efficacy to the point an approach to the game is never even viable as an alternative, even when accounting for changes in strategy attempting to optimize the environment in favor of the "weak" idea.

 

I'll say it outright that most of the people here have very little game knowledge and have near no semblance of understanding of the implications the things they want would carry. There are many blatant examples of this in the game's history of many peoples' bad ideas - which were discussed as bad ideas - ideas being implemented, and then after the honeymoon period, we see the negatives being fairly catastrophic.

 

I'd love to see ANet try to balance boons out of humor more than anything. It's impossible without making many people very, very upset in some capacity. Or unless they just delete the concentration stat and nerf a lot of boons AND various other mechanics that the boons are designed to help combat. Such attempts are likely going to be an endless pursuit of futility at this point, likely resulting in the gutting of most of the non-dominant build options and diverse ideas in the process.

 

[Ario.8964]

> @"Aplethoraof.2643" said:

> > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > > @"Aplethoraof.2643" said:

> > > > @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > > > > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > > > > > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > > > > > @"Safandula.8723" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > > > > > > Players: *"Powercreeped classes perma evade perma stealth perma block immortal impossible to kill can fight 1v5!"*

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Also players: *"I got insta killed nurf plox!"*

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Yea that's the problem with meta rn, everything can 1 shot u while being tanky af

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > .Like that is an oxymoron

> > > > > > if everything is tanky..wouldnt that mean nothing gets one shot?

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > It simply means that every class possesses the ability to 1 shot through some sort of combo, they just sustain and spam defense until someone messes up and gets 1 shot by someone's combo or takes a small portion of that combo for significant damage. But outside of those combos, you can't kill people because too many defenses, heals, etc. Like others have said, Healing and defenses need to be nerfed to allow combat to end in a reasonable amount of time but damage has to be nerfed so that the fight is a more gradual loss of life rather than both are 100% now one of them is 0 in 2 seconds.

> > > >

> > > > But is a combo technically a "one shot" ?

> > >

> > > It's actually the opposite :disappointed:

> > >

> > > "they just sustain and spam defence until someone messes up and gets 1 shot by someone's combo or takes a small portion of that combo for significant damage."

> > > So. . .like it should be? You dance around until one person messes up, then they either die or get hurt depending on the severity of their screw up.

> >

> > This is true. However, what the problem is is the pace of the damage. Combat needs to slow down a little and buffing sustain/defense doesn't help that. Reducing damage so that the combos that are happening are still strong and effective, but aren't guaranteed death wombo-combos is important. To compensate for the slowed pace of combat you have to reduce healing in the game to allow for people to die in a reasonable amount of time within the game that just lowered overall damage.

>

> I'll be honest, I find combat to be fairly slow already. I'm not sure by how much people want it slowed, maybe you can have a special game-mode for people who want fights that can last longer than 5 mins (aprox 5 mins is the longest fight I've had, that was mid 2018). Personally, as much as I like it at times, I don't want every game to have dragon's dogma-length fights. Plus, a lot of people just don't have that much time on their hands.

>

> It is fine, as it stands. If someone slips up, that should be the game over for them (till respawn :smile: ). If both people are on their game and manage their CDs effectively, a fight can last a really long time. But I find when people just don't do that, that contributes to a lot of fights being shorter in my experience.

>

> I'd chalk that up to a L2P situation. Fights CAN last a really long time, both people just need to be on top of their game for that to happen.

 

In my experience, the reason fights last too long is because certain classes have access to ridiculous amounts of sustain and mobility so getting the finishing hits on someone who knows how to kite and reset can be difficult if not impossible at times. I'm not looking for 5 minute fights either, when I say slowing the pace of combat I mean it would be much easier to track from an analytical standpoint. Instead of the fight being "player 1 is at 100% but player 2 hit him with 2 skills so now he's at 25% and he runs away for 2 seconds until his god mode regen takes him back up to full hp and the fight continues until player 2 messes up and player 1 OHKO's him" it'd go more along the lines of "Player 1 combo'd player 2 really well just then, now player 2 is down to 50% health, he kites for a few seconds to come back with 75% hp and then lands a nice combo on player 1 to take him to 25%, player one heals back to 50% and turns it around with a really solid cc chain combo that finishes off player 2". Same amount of time during the fights, just less drastic of changes in health % during the fight due to lower dmg and sustain. Fights will always be short when people can't manage their cd's, as that's what players take advantage of when it comes to finding openings in opponent defenses. Many of those people wouldn't be able to manage their cds post-nerf anyways so they'll probably die even quicker with fewer heals to try and carry themselves through the damage.

[gonzi.7605]

Every cry got the same reason. Fractals? "they are too hard after adding these instabilities". Pvp? "omg, they are too tanky/too squishy to do anything". But its all comes into one point - people cant adapt to changes. On fractals you just have to adapt a little to instabilities to counter them. On pvp all you have to do is to PREDICT enemy. I dont know if you notice : if you got build for "one-shot" (like mirage a little time ago) then you got long intervals for it. Just dodge this burst and gg, you destroy enemy combo and he cant do any dmg and dont have any tools to survive for x seconds. Enemy is tanky as hell? then just try to ait his shields, protections etc, and THEN burst.

 

I loved elementalist from very beginning till this day. And also i play this class on pvp even if it's not in some kind of freak meta. So i HAVE TO deal like i write above. And its pretty easy, as most players dont think what they did. Mirage shows next to me with his jumping attack thing? Twist of Fate! (dodge works too - tested) And after his combo its more than easy fight. For real - its harder to kill deer than this kind of mirage. And opposite - guardian bunker? Burst him without using main combo, he set up his defenses... and when they end (and he got all on cd) just burst with main combo. Fight end in 20 seconds +-.

 

But if you try to burst bunker on full hp... its same as above with weaver - he will just survive your combo and you are dead or cant burst him when he use defenses, after a while when you get off cd, he get off his cd also, so it can last forever.

[Safandula.8723]

> @"gonzi.7605" said:

> Every cry got the same reason. Fractals? "they are too hard after adding these instabilities". Pvp? "omg, they are too tanky/too squishy to do anything". But its all comes into one point - people cant adapt to changes. On fractals you just have to adapt a little to instabilities to counter them. On pvp all you have to do is to PREDICT enemy. I dont know if you notice : if you got build for "one-shot" (like mirage a little time ago) then you got long intervals for it. Just dodge this burst and gg, you destroy enemy combo and he cant do any dmg and dont have any tools to survive for x seconds. Enemy is tanky as hell? then just try to ait his shields, protections etc, and THEN burst.

>

> I loved elementalist from very beginning till this day. And also i play this class on pvp even if it's not in some kind of freak meta. So i HAVE TO deal like i write above. And its pretty easy, as most players dont think what they did. Mirage shows next to me with his jumping attack thing? Twist of Fate! (dodge works too - tested) And after his combo its more than easy fight. For real - its harder to kill deer than this kind of mirage. And opposite - guardian bunker? Burst him without using main combo, he set up his defenses... and when they end (and he got all on cd) just burst with main combo. Fight end in 20 seconds +-.

>

> But if you try to burst bunker on full hp... its same as above with weaver - he will just survive your combo and you are dead or cant burst him when he use defenses, after a while when you get off cd, he get off his cd also, so it can last forever.

 

Ur funny build has about 40%of evade uptime ^^.

Today I have spent on sirens + 100 cm, 1,5 h with 200 KP group with fractal gods, and champions, and u know what? After few fails I started to laugh. As u said we adapted and we did it. But we knew we can do it better.

On pvp its whole another thing. In pve u see red circles or break bars on enemies heads, in pvp u just instantly see u got 1 shoted from random aoe in half second. Gl, if it's funny to you, than in some time (in case of no reasonable balance changes and delayed expansions), u will be playing only with bunch of other boonbeasts, mirage, and maybe ur cute weavers that just dodge and condi cleanse