Brutaly.6257 Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 > @phor.7952 said: > @"Brutaly.6257" but his point is that Tome of Justice #1 is just as strong as what you're claiming would have been OP about Staff. > Sure, it requires Renewed Justice procs in order to "spam" it, but it's a 600 range cone AoE that hits the same number of targets as Staff #1, does more direct damage per hit, and applies a longer duration burning on EVERY hit (instead of every 3-5 hits like Staff would). In that regard, it's even stronger than what you're claiming would have been overpowered with the old Staff #1. Actually it isnt in wvw since you need to be out of the tome to recharge it and need a kill for it, in pve nothing has really changed and ToJ #1 is just a strong, if not even stronger, than the old staff one (direct damage is of no significance in wvw). ToJ in wvw is limited to max 8 reliable hits and getting a kill is more of a gamble. ToJ skill 1 in PvE is a different story all together. But comparing ToJ and the old staff #1 in wvw and state that ToJ is as powerful is in my opinion wrong, i played condifrontliner on and off since the day they fixed permeating wrath and staff was a killer. And a radiance build don't have the sustain in wvw to even be a front liner imo. Staff #1 in wvw was borderline OP pre patch on a dedicated condi build. Don't get me wrong here, i think the nerf was silly and poorly executed but i can understand why they did it and it was a huge blow to the way i played staff in wvw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
draxynnic.3719 Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 > @Brutaly.6257 said: > > @phor.7952 said: > > @"Brutaly.6257" but his point is that Tome of Justice #1 is just as strong as what you're claiming would have been OP about Staff. > > Sure, it requires Renewed Justice procs in order to "spam" it, but it's a 600 range cone AoE that hits the same number of targets as Staff #1, does more direct damage per hit, and applies a longer duration burning on EVERY hit (instead of every 3-5 hits like Staff would). In that regard, it's even stronger than what you're claiming would have been overpowered with the old Staff #1. > > Actually it isnt in wvw since you need to be out of the tome to recharge it and need a kill for it, in pve nothing has really changed and ToJ #1 is just a strong, if not even stronger, than the old staff one (direct damage is of no significance in wvw). Yeah, for pretty much any PvE situation outside of playing lawnmower in Twilight Arbor, ToJ on a Radiance build is probably just plain better for anything you would have been using staff for previously: if the enemies aren't dying fast enough to trigger Renewed Justice, then you may well be better off using something other than staff anyway. There is an aspect of taking something away only to sell it back, but it is there. Of course, that doesn't excuse effectively killing a weapon altogether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RabbitUp.8294 Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 > @Brutaly.6257 said: > > @GoZero.9708 said: > > > @Brutaly.6257 said: > > > It was the quickness that FB brought that killed the staff. As i said before PoF launch just imagine the amount of burning you would be able to stack with the original staff and add quickness to that. It would have been seriously game breaking in a number of scenarios, primarily wvw. > > > > > > With that said i think the change is awful, they destroyed the possibility for decent ranged aoe burning we had and made staff completely useless. Empower is just awful even in wvw since groups tend to move so i cant even call it an empower stick. > > > > I can't envision how staff would be much worse than what already are Tome of Justice's options. Even if the range was still at 600 (which matches ToJ's 1 skill Searing Spell btw), Firebrands would still just stick to having Tome opens as much as possible (given Radiance's traits, that's not difficult at all) and rely on dropping to staff when they couldn't get a kill to recharge their Tome or to drop it just before a kill, pop Empower and maybe LoW or SoS, and go back to ToJ. I really don't see how Wave of Wrath factors into it. > > if you played condi frontliner with staff in wvw before PoF was released i believe its rather easy to understand what i mean. FB/quickness would have increased the burning with 33% and add ashes of the just on top of that and it would have been, well, not very balanced. The only thing FB adds to that build is quickness. The only condi damage buff in the entire spec is that +250 condi dmg on a minor trait when you have quickness. Instead, we get a lot of condi access, through the tome and a condi weapon, but both of those are incompatible with staff, so they are not a boost. Ashes doesn't make any significant difference. If you apply it to 5 people, it's 10 stacks that are distributed randomly to whoever is attacked. Meanwhile, scourge does more damage while applying 10 different conditions and corrupting boons, removing all counterplay, whether it's cleanse or resistance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crosknight.3041 Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 was actually talking to friends about this the other day. guard staff is complete garbage since they nerfed the auto attack range. would love to see a healsupport rework for it. give me healer guard! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alehin.3746 Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 >staff support guard isnt viable It is. The only thing i can agree with is that staff2 could use a change, but all other skills have their uses in all game modes. We don't need more healing on guardian, it's pretty damn good already. >b-but i want to heal with staff from 1200 range :( Then guardian isnt for you. Go play staff auramancer, its pretty good and all your skills on water atunement can be used for healing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incarne.4927 Posted October 25, 2017 Author Share Posted October 25, 2017 > @Alehin.3746 said: > >staff support guard isnt viable > > It is. The only thing i can agree with is that staff2 could use a change, but all other skills have their uses in all game modes. We don't need more healing on guardian, it's pretty kitten good already. Staff support has it's uses in very niche situations. The weapon needs QoL changes or a complete rework in order to compete with other support roles that have a viable form of support in every situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alehin.3746 Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 > @Incarne.4927 said: > > @Alehin.3746 said: > > >staff support guard isnt viable > > > > It is. The only thing i can agree with is that staff2 could use a change, but all other skills have their uses in all game modes. We don't need more healing on guardian, it's pretty kitten good already. > > Staff support has it's uses in very niche situations. The weapon needs QoL changes or a complete rework in order to compete with other support roles that have a viable form of support in every situation. Staff is supposed to have its uses on niche situations, just like all other weapons in the game. Do you use staff on ele to fight moving, small targets? Do you use guardian sword on a zerg fight? I don't think so. Staff is made to buff your allies and provide a little bit of healing, and it been working fine in all game modes imo. Also, quality of life =/= what people are asking for in this thread. The changes you suggested for staff5 is basically what focus4 on mesmer do. The change of Symbol of Swifness would make people equip staff -> cast SoS -> unequip staff, not use the staff as a weapon. 400~600 healing on staff 1 is just powercreep, that ammount of healing would just be overpowered. Staff guard will become unkillable with changes like this and we don't need more unkillable builds on PvP. I play heal guard/FB for years and i'm pretty sucessful with it, specially in raids, where people think anything outside the meta = bad. This community needs to learn to play the game and learn what to do in different situations instead of asking anet to buff everything they want to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incarne.4927 Posted October 25, 2017 Author Share Posted October 25, 2017 > @Alehin.3746 said: > > @Incarne.4927 said: > > > @Alehin.3746 said: > > > >staff support guard isnt viable > > > > > > It is. The only thing i can agree with is that staff2 could use a change, but all other skills have their uses in all game modes. We don't need more healing on guardian, it's pretty kitten good already. > > > > Staff support has it's uses in very niche situations. The weapon needs QoL changes or a complete rework in order to compete with other support roles that have a viable form of support in every situation. > > Staff is supposed to have its uses on niche situations, just like all other weapons in the game. Do you use staff on ele to fight moving, small targets? Do you use guardian sword on a zerg fight? I don't think so. Staff is made to buff your allies and provide a little bit of healing, and it been working fine in all game modes imo. > > Also, quality of life =/= what people are asking for in this thread. The changes you suggested for staff5 is basically what focus4 on mesmer do. The change of Symbol of Swifness would make people equip staff -> cast SoS -> unequip staff, not use the staff as a weapon. 400~600 healing on staff 1 is just powercreep, that ammount of healing would just be overpowered. Staff guard will become unkillable with changes like this and we don't need more unkillable builds on PvP. > > I play heal guard/FB for years and i'm pretty sucessful with it, specially in raids, where people think anything outside the meta = bad. This community needs to learn to play the game and learn what to do in different situations instead of asking anet to buff everything they want to play. I would love to see a video of you completing a raid as a healing guardian, if it's something you're willing to do. Until then, multiple people including myself have stated throughout the years, heal guard is nowhere near the levels of the heals/support and utility a Druid or Tempest can dish out. I've been playing Guardian for a good while, and while it is possible to be a decent support in 5 man groups, anything more than that is not even close to what an ele or druid can do. Staff is a support weapon, but oit just doesn't cut it. There needs to be more done to it along with adding a dedicated form of healing. Once you use all your tome of resolve pages, you can spam your tome of courage but then you are playing the waiting game until those tomes come off cooldown. Druid has multiple forms of healing along with Tempest. For Firebrand to be advertised as a combination of DPS and Support, one feels more lackluster than the other. It has potential but a proper support weapon is needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alehin.3746 Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 > @Incarne.4927 said: > I would love to see a video of you completing a raid as a healing guardian, if it's something you're willing to do. The only fights that i don't heal as a guardian is Gorseval, KC and Xera, because of entangle, spirit ress and dps buffs. Everything is else is perfectly doable as a guardian, specially wing 2 and 4. Not sure if i can record videos on my computer, but feel free to join me whenever you see me online in the aerodrome. >heal guard is nowhere near the levels of the heals/support and utility a Druid or Tempest can dish out Ouch, that hurts to read. Perma resistance, reflects, condi cleanse, stability, aegis, etc. Druid and eles don't provide any of those boons/utility, except condi cleanse, but it's way less reliable than a firebrand. . Yes, druid provide a lot of damage buffs to the party, but **you don't need those dps buffs to clear raids.** I preffer to make fights easier/safer and doing it in 1 or 2 tries than going for a "faster clear" that takes a lot more tries. Thats just me tho. > For Firebrand to be advertised as a combination of DPS and Support, one feels more lackluster than the other. It has potential but a proper support weapon is needed. Found the problem. You can't expect a class to do DPS and support at the same time with the same quality as full dps/support builds. Firebrand have decent support weapons, they're called mace+shield (healing+blocks+regen+projectile destruction), hammer (perma protection+cc+healing from Writ of Persistence) and staff (buffs+baby heals+cc). > Staff is a support weapon, but it just doesn't cut it. There needs to be more done to it along with adding a dedicated form of healing. Once you use all your tome of resolve pages, you can spam your tome of courage but then you are playing the waiting game until those tomes come off cooldown. If you're camping tomes and spamming 1, you're just doing it wrong. You have plenty of sustain from mace/hammer/staff, selfless daring, pure of heart procs and virtue passive. Tomes have a long cooldown, you should save them for situations that really need its utilities, just like overload water and celestial avatar. I agree that staff could use changes, specially on 2, but honestly it sounds more that you want anet to make your bad build (no offense) to work more than anything else, and we don't need that kind of powercreep in pvp/wvw. You're probably never going to have decent dps+healing on guardian, because you need specific traitlines to make stuff work, it's either or. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incarne.4927 Posted October 26, 2017 Author Share Posted October 26, 2017 > @Alehin.3746 said: > > @Incarne.4927 said: > > > I would love to see a video of you completing a raid as a healing guardian, if it's something you're willing to do. > The only fights that i don't heal as a guardian is Gorseval, KC and Xera, because of entangle, spirit ress and dps buffs. Everything is else is perfectly doable as a guardian, specially wing 2 and 4. Not sure if i can record videos on my computer, but feel free to join me whenever you see me online in the aerodrome. > > >heal guard is nowhere near the levels of the heals/support and utility a Druid or Tempest can dish out > > Ouch, that hurts to read. Perma resistance, reflects, condi cleanse, stability, aegis, etc. Druid and eles don't provide any of those boons/utility, except condi cleanse, but it's way less reliable than a firebrand. . Yes, druid provide a lot of damage buffs to the party, but **you don't need those dps buffs to clear raids.** I preffer to make fights easier/safer and doing it in 1 or 2 tries than going for a "faster clear" that takes a lot more tries. Thats just me tho. > > > For Firebrand to be advertised as a combination of DPS and Support, one feels more lackluster than the other. It has potential but a proper support weapon is needed. > > Found the problem. You can't expect a class to do DPS and support at the same time with the same quality as full dps/support builds. Firebrand have decent support weapons, they're called mace+shield (healing+blocks+regen+projectile destruction), hammer (perma protection+cc+healing from Writ of Persistence) and staff (buffs+baby heals+cc). > > > > Staff is a support weapon, but it just doesn't cut it. There needs to be more done to it along with adding a dedicated form of healing. Once you use all your tome of resolve pages, you can spam your tome of courage but then you are playing the waiting game until those tomes come off cooldown. > > If you're camping tomes and spamming 1, you're just doing it wrong. You have plenty of sustain from mace/hammer/staff, selfless daring, pure of heart procs and virtue passive. Tomes have a long cooldown, you should save them for situations that really need its utilities, just like overload water and celestial avatar. > > I agree that staff could use changes, specially on 2, but honestly it sounds more that you want anet to make your bad build (no offense) to work more than anything else, and we don't need that kind of powercreep in pvp/wvw. You're probably never going to have decent dps+healing on guardian, because you need specific traitlines to make stuff work, it's either or. I think you have a completely wrong idea of what I was saying lol... I said they advertised Firebrand as a Support/DPS role, as in the player can spec to be one of two options separately. Not both in one. I play support Firebrand in many places like Fractals, open world champions, and sPVP. I've tried it in places like WvW but using a mace as a support weapon in WvW, tell me how are you healing anyone with that mace combo chain? Like you said for staff, you can get little heals out. That's the main point of this thread. Support for staff needs a buff. Point blank period. Everything you've stated I already use in my build. These are the traits and skills I use for just about everything: Honor- 2 2 3, Valor- 2 3 2, FB- 3 3 3 | Mace+Shield, Axe+Focus | Receive the Light, Mantra of Potence, Bow of Truth, Merciful Intervntion, Renewed Focus (Access to Tomes more often with Renewed Focus, can swap out Valor for Virtues- 2 2 2) Honor- 2 2 3, Radiance- 3 1 2, FB- 3 3 3 | Mace+Shield, Axe+Focus | Receive the Light, Mantra of Potence, Bow of Truth, Signet of Courage (Radience for shorter signet cooldowns, spreads to group when used. Mantra of Potence + Signet of Courage for quick 100% heal, followed by extra heal caused by Radiance trait line) I've done lots of theory crafting, and testing different builds for healing and general support. My only problem is, Staff sucks. When Tome skills are down, we have no form of dedicated healing that other support classes offer. That is my main gripe with support Guardians right now. And the lousy heal radius from mace is only for people who happen to be within 300 range of your current target. Mace feels more like a personal support weapon than a support weapon for the group. Give staff auto-attack a decent heal and call it a day. I agree with most of your points and I've stated that guardian is great and has the potential to be a great support class, but it lacks in the sustained healing area and our support kit is useful only so much compared to other classes. I'm rambling at this point and I feel as though you wont really understand what I'm trying to say, not really the best at fully explaining my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RabbitUp.8294 Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 > @Alehin.3746 said: > > @Incarne.4927 said: > > > I would love to see a video of you completing a raid as a healing guardian, if it's something you're willing to do. > The only fights that i don't heal as a guardian is Gorseval, KC and Xera, because of entangle, spirit ress and dps buffs. Everything is else is perfectly doable as a guardian, specially wing 2 and 4. Not sure if i can record videos on my computer, but feel free to join me whenever you see me online in the aerodrome. > > >heal guard is nowhere near the levels of the heals/support and utility a Druid or Tempest can dish out > > Ouch, that hurts to read. Perma resistance, reflects, condi cleanse, stability, aegis, etc. Druid and eles don't provide any of those boons/utility, except condi cleanse, but it's way less reliable than a firebrand. . Yes, druid provide a lot of damage buffs to the party, but **you don't need those dps buffs to clear raids.** I preffer to make fights easier/safer and doing it in 1 or 2 tries than going for a "faster clear" that takes a lot more tries. Thats just me tho. Good job, you found a group willing to carry you, so what? Firebrand remains a strictly inferior choice to any meta support spec. And that's even with your obvious lies like FB providing perma resistance. You don't need dps buffs to clear raids? Guess what, you also don't need healers to clear them, so your heal guardian is useless. Your only contribution is carrying lesser skilled players, and even that could be done better by a druid healing and buffing group dps, thus reducing the time of the fight, and mesmer distorting every mechanic. > Found the problem. You can't expect a class to do DPS and support at the same time with the same quality as full dps/support builds. Guess what, that's exactly what druid is doing. Except that their damage comes from buffing group dps, so its flies under the radar. Support firebrand has both bad personal dps and no group dps. > If you're camping tomes and spamming 1, you're just doing it wrong. You have plenty of sustain from mace/hammer/staff, selfless daring, pure of heart procs and virtue passive. Tomes have a long cooldown, you should save them for situations that really need its utilities, just like overload water and celestial avatar. Except that druid *does* spam their CA on cd, which is 10s. Even Overload Water has 20s to Tome's 40s. See the difference? Neither ele nor druid have to "save" anything. Tome's healing might as well not be there. It's a cleansing tool, burst healing barely matters in this game, so when you pop it, chances are a lot of that healing will go to waste, but the cooldown will be the same ragardless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incarne.4927 Posted October 26, 2017 Author Share Posted October 26, 2017 I agree with alot of what @"RabbitUp.8294" says but mainly about the Tome's burst healing, which would be a waste to not camp inside of tome. If you didnt camp it, you would then have a huge cooldown leaving you without a major part of Firebrand support. I made a video demonstrating what I can do with my build. It offers good heals but lacks a proper support weapon to keep people healed while our tomes are on CD. I feel as though mace is a tank weapon more than a support weapon: Renewed focus is an option I switch between, but either way, you are forced to camp tomes as a support because of there not being a proper support weapon option. If you let go of your tomes early you are cutting your support in half pretty much, left with only personal blocks and your personal heal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alehin.3746 Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 > @RabbitUp.8294 said: > > @Alehin.3746 said: > > > @Incarne.4927 said: > > > > > I would love to see a video of you completing a raid as a healing guardian, if it's something you're willing to do. > > The only fights that i don't heal as a guardian is Gorseval, KC and Xera, because of entangle, spirit ress and dps buffs. Everything is else is perfectly doable as a guardian, specially wing 2 and 4. Not sure if i can record videos on my computer, but feel free to join me whenever you see me online in the aerodrome. > > > > >heal guard is nowhere near the levels of the heals/support and utility a Druid or Tempest can dish out > > > > Ouch, that hurts to read. Perma resistance, reflects, condi cleanse, stability, aegis, etc. Druid and eles don't provide any of those boons/utility, except condi cleanse, but it's way less reliable than a firebrand. . Yes, druid provide a lot of damage buffs to the party, but **you don't need those dps buffs to clear raids.** I preffer to make fights easier/safer and doing it in 1 or 2 tries than going for a "faster clear" that takes a lot more tries. Thats just me tho. > > Good job, you found a group willing to carry you, so what? Firebrand remains a strictly inferior choice to any meta support spec. And that's even with your obvious lies like FB providing perma resistance. "Carried", when i solo heal several encounters so we can have another dps or a condi druid? hahaha. I play condi druid when i raid with my static group, for fast clears, but **that doesn't mean condi/magi druid is the only viable option for healers in the game**. By perma resistance i meant "more than 40 seconds of resistance", which can also be 40 seconds of reflects, or extra toughness, or stab. Please, play the class/build a little bit more before talking about it. lmao >meta meta meta meta You don't need to be a meta-slave to clear raids and have fun. > > You don't need dps buffs to clear raids? Guess what, you also don't need healers to clear them, so your heal guardian is useless. Your only contribution is carrying lesser skilled players Guess what, a lot of people on the pug community are "low skilled", so you definitively need to keep them alive instead of flaming themn while you play condi druid. Dead pugs can't dps, so your dps buffs goes to waste. I'm talking about pugs here, not high level static raids. >and mesmer distorting every mechanic. What do you do when you die because you mesmer failed to distort? Do you flame them or just kick from your group? kek >reducing the time of the fight Yeah, lets clear matthias in 8m instead of 8m 40s, that will save the pugs from the danger. > > > Found the problem. You can't expect a class to do DPS and support at the same time with the same quality as full dps/support builds. > > Guess what, that's exactly what druid is doing. Except that their damage comes from buffing group dps, so its flies under the radar. Support firebrand has both bad personal dps and no group dps. I meant to say "the class", not "a class". I understand that, its one of the reasons why i think anet should nerf druids instead of buffing other supports. > > > If you're camping tomes and spamming 1, you're just doing it wrong. You have plenty of sustain from mace/hammer/staff, selfless daring, pure of heart procs and virtue passive. Tomes have a long cooldown, you should save them for situations that really need its utilities, just like overload water and celestial avatar. > > Except that druid *does* spam their CA on cd, which is 10s. Even Overload Water has 20s to Tome's 40s. See the difference? Neither ele nor druid have to "save" anything. Tome's healing might as well not be there. It's a cleansing tool, burst healing barely matters in this game, so when you pop it, chances are a lot of that healing will go to waste, but the cooldown will be the same ragardless. Whoops, i meant "unlike". But yeah, they can just spam it, you (fb) dont. You don't need burst healing, i agree with that, thats why you should save it for when you need cleanse. >you don't need healing on raids Then why do you guys want staff to be buffed? It certainly won't make guardian a "top tier healer" in raids and will make it become overpowered in PvP/WvW, so whats the point? :thinking: >! typing half asleep on mobile always go wrong, sorry for the confusion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alehin.3746 Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 > @Incarne.4927 said: > I agree with alot of what @"RabbitUp.8294" says but mainly about the Tome's burst healing, which would be a waste to not camp inside of tome. If you didnt camp it, you would then have a huge cooldown leaving you without a major part of Firebrand support. I made a video demonstrating what I can do with my build. It offers good heals but lacks a proper support weapon to keep people healed while our tomes are on CD. I feel as though mace is a tank weapon more than a support weapon: > > > > Renewed focus is an option I switch between, but either way, you are forced to camp tomes as a support because of there not being a proper support weapon option. If you let go of your tomes early you are cutting your support in half pretty much, left with only personal blocks and your personal heal. That video just show how guardian doesn't need more healing. You didn't even had a target, like you said, and you're using Axe, which is a condition damage focused weapon, instead of another mace+focus or staff. I don't see the point of buffing it even more, mace does a pretty good job already. All of this sounds like just more powercreep to me. Edit: What if they changed Honorable Staff and made it change how staff 1 works, so people would have to choose betwen Honorable Staff and Pure of Heart. I think that would be pretty cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brutaly.6257 Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 @"Alehin.3746" Where do you find 40 sec of resistance or is it some sort of glitch when translating from your native language? With resistance do you mean protection? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incarne.4927 Posted October 26, 2017 Author Share Posted October 26, 2017 > @Alehin.3746 said: > > @Incarne.4927 said: > > I agree with alot of what @"RabbitUp.8294" says but mainly about the Tome's burst healing, which would be a waste to not camp inside of tome. If you didnt camp it, you would then have a huge cooldown leaving you without a major part of Firebrand support. I made a video demonstrating what I can do with my build. It offers good heals but lacks a proper support weapon to keep people healed while our tomes are on CD. I feel as though mace is a tank weapon more than a support weapon: > > > > > > > > Renewed focus is an option I switch between, but either way, you are forced to camp tomes as a support because of there not being a proper support weapon option. If you let go of your tomes early you are cutting your support in half pretty much, left with only personal blocks and your personal heal. > > That video just show how guardian doesn't need more healing. You didn't even had a target, like you said, and you're using Axe, which is a condition damage focused weapon, instead of another mace+focus or staff. > > I don't see the point of buffing it even more, mace does a pretty good job already. All of this sounds like just more powercreep to me. > > Edit: What if they changed Honorable Staff and made it change how staff 1 works, so people would have to choose betwen Honorable Staff and Pure of Heart. I think that would be pretty cool. The video I made does show how good guardian heals can be, but you fail to realize that they rely on tomes very heavily. The skills outside of tome are more of a self sustain than a group support, which makes me function more as a tank than a support. The fact that I didn't have a target goes back to the self sustain thing, the radius for mace auto attack chain is 180, and I need an enemy target! So in the end, Mace functions more as a self sustain/ tank weapon more than a support weapon for the group. Shield is a fine support weapon though. Also, the reason I use Axe+Focus is for utility like CC and grouping enemies for the team to dps them down. It won't be a power creep if they add a heal to Staff auto attack, because like I said the other support classes have a form of dedicated healing so why can't Guardian. When tomes are down, you are a sitting duck that can only rely on Mace 3 for a block, since Mace 1 isn't a reliable form of healing for others. Just think about it, 180 radius? Cmon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alehin.3746 Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 > @Brutaly.6257 said: > @"Alehin.3746" > Where do you find 40 sec of resistance or is it some sort of glitch when translating from your native language? > > With resistance do you mean protection? https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chapter_4:_Stalwart_Stand + https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Archivist_of_Whispers > @Incarne.4927 said: > > @Alehin.3746 said: > > > @Incarne.4927 said: > > > I agree with alot of what @"RabbitUp.8294" says but mainly about the Tome's burst healing, which would be a waste to not camp inside of tome. If you didnt camp it, you would then have a huge cooldown leaving you without a major part of Firebrand support. I made a video demonstrating what I can do with my build. It offers good heals but lacks a proper support weapon to keep people healed while our tomes are on CD. I feel as though mace is a tank weapon more than a support weapon: > > > > > > > > > > > > Renewed focus is an option I switch between, but either way, you are forced to camp tomes as a support because of there not being a proper support weapon option. If you let go of your tomes early you are cutting your support in half pretty much, left with only personal blocks and your personal heal. > > > > That video just show how guardian doesn't need more healing. You didn't even had a target, like you said, and you're using Axe, which is a condition damage focused weapon, instead of another mace+focus or staff. > > > > I don't see the point of buffing it even more, mace does a pretty good job already. All of this sounds like just more powercreep to me. > > > > Edit: What if they changed Honorable Staff and made it change how staff 1 works, so people would have to choose betwen Honorable Staff and Pure of Heart. I think that would be pretty cool. > > The video I made does show how good guardian heals can be, but you fail to realize that they rely on tomes very heavily. The skills outside of tome are more of a self sustain than a group support, which makes me function more as a tank than a support. The fact that I didn't have a target goes back to the self sustain thing, the radius for mace auto attack chain is 180, and I need an enemy target! So in the end, Mace functions more as a self sustain/ tank weapon more than a support weapon for the group. Shield is a fine support weapon though. Also, the reason I use Axe+Focus is for utility like CC and grouping enemies for the team to dps them down. It won't be a power creep if they add a heal to Staff auto attack, because like I said the other support classes have a form of dedicated healing so why can't Guardian. When tomes are down, you are a sitting duck that can only rely on Mace 3 for a block, since Mace 1 isn't a reliable form of healing for others. Just think about it, 180 radius? Cmon. You are supposed to stay up close tho. 180 radius is the same size as symbols, its perfectly fine imo. Do you think a 400~600 healing with 300 range on staff 1 would be enough? I would just pick druid, ele or rev if i needed to heal people from far away, but thats just my personal prefference i guess. I just hope anet don't make guardian more tankier than it currently is, we don't need that shit in PvP/WvW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incarne.4927 Posted October 26, 2017 Author Share Posted October 26, 2017 > @Alehin.3746 said: > > @Brutaly.6257 said: > > @"Alehin.3746" > > Where do you find 40 sec of resistance or is it some sort of glitch when translating from your native language? > > > > With resistance do you mean protection? > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chapter_4:_Stalwart_Stand + https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Archivist_of_Whispers > > > @Incarne.4927 said: > > > @Alehin.3746 said: > > > > @Incarne.4927 said: > > > > I agree with alot of what @"RabbitUp.8294" says but mainly about the Tome's burst healing, which would be a waste to not camp inside of tome. If you didnt camp it, you would then have a huge cooldown leaving you without a major part of Firebrand support. I made a video demonstrating what I can do with my build. It offers good heals but lacks a proper support weapon to keep people healed while our tomes are on CD. I feel as though mace is a tank weapon more than a support weapon: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Renewed focus is an option I switch between, but either way, you are forced to camp tomes as a support because of there not being a proper support weapon option. If you let go of your tomes early you are cutting your support in half pretty much, left with only personal blocks and your personal heal. > > > > > > That video just show how guardian doesn't need more healing. You didn't even had a target, like you said, and you're using Axe, which is a condition damage focused weapon, instead of another mace+focus or staff. > > > > > > I don't see the point of buffing it even more, mace does a pretty good job already. All of this sounds like just more powercreep to me. > > > > > > Edit: What if they changed Honorable Staff and made it change how staff 1 works, so people would have to choose betwen Honorable Staff and Pure of Heart. I think that would be pretty cool. > > > > The video I made does show how good guardian heals can be, but you fail to realize that they rely on tomes very heavily. The skills outside of tome are more of a self sustain than a group support, which makes me function more as a tank than a support. The fact that I didn't have a target goes back to the self sustain thing, the radius for mace auto attack chain is 180, and I need an enemy target! So in the end, Mace functions more as a self sustain/ tank weapon more than a support weapon for the group. Shield is a fine support weapon though. Also, the reason I use Axe+Focus is for utility like CC and grouping enemies for the team to dps them down. It won't be a power creep if they add a heal to Staff auto attack, because like I said the other support classes have a form of dedicated healing so why can't Guardian. When tomes are down, you are a sitting duck that can only rely on Mace 3 for a block, since Mace 1 isn't a reliable form of healing for others. Just think about it, 180 radius? Cmon. > > You are supposed to stay up close tho. 180 radius is the same size as symbols, its perfectly fine imo. Do you think a 400~600 healing with 300 range on staff 1 would be enough? I would just pick druid, ele or rev if i needed to heal people from far away, but thats just my personal prefference i guess. I just hope anet don't make guardian more tankier than it currently is, we don't need that kitten in PvP/WvW. I understand where you are coming from, but I'm telling you, people would have to be stacked on top of each other supppper tight in order to benefit from the mace auto attack. A 300 ranged heal on staff would be awesome because it wouldn't require a target to heal others, same thing that eles can do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alehin.3746 Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 > @Incarne.4927 said: > > @Alehin.3746 said: > > > @Brutaly.6257 said: > > > @"Alehin.3746" > > > Where do you find 40 sec of resistance or is it some sort of glitch when translating from your native language? > > > > > > With resistance do you mean protection? > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chapter_4:_Stalwart_Stand + https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Archivist_of_Whispers > > > > > @Incarne.4927 said: > > > > @Alehin.3746 said: > > > > > @Incarne.4927 said: > > > > > I agree with alot of what @"RabbitUp.8294" says but mainly about the Tome's burst healing, which would be a waste to not camp inside of tome. If you didnt camp it, you would then have a huge cooldown leaving you without a major part of Firebrand support. I made a video demonstrating what I can do with my build. It offers good heals but lacks a proper support weapon to keep people healed while our tomes are on CD. I feel as though mace is a tank weapon more than a support weapon: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Renewed focus is an option I switch between, but either way, you are forced to camp tomes as a support because of there not being a proper support weapon option. If you let go of your tomes early you are cutting your support in half pretty much, left with only personal blocks and your personal heal. > > > > > > > > That video just show how guardian doesn't need more healing. You didn't even had a target, like you said, and you're using Axe, which is a condition damage focused weapon, instead of another mace+focus or staff. > > > > > > > > I don't see the point of buffing it even more, mace does a pretty good job already. All of this sounds like just more powercreep to me. > > > > > > > > Edit: What if they changed Honorable Staff and made it change how staff 1 works, so people would have to choose betwen Honorable Staff and Pure of Heart. I think that would be pretty cool. > > > > > > The video I made does show how good guardian heals can be, but you fail to realize that they rely on tomes very heavily. The skills outside of tome are more of a self sustain than a group support, which makes me function more as a tank than a support. The fact that I didn't have a target goes back to the self sustain thing, the radius for mace auto attack chain is 180, and I need an enemy target! So in the end, Mace functions more as a self sustain/ tank weapon more than a support weapon for the group. Shield is a fine support weapon though. Also, the reason I use Axe+Focus is for utility like CC and grouping enemies for the team to dps them down. It won't be a power creep if they add a heal to Staff auto attack, because like I said the other support classes have a form of dedicated healing so why can't Guardian. When tomes are down, you are a sitting duck that can only rely on Mace 3 for a block, since Mace 1 isn't a reliable form of healing for others. Just think about it, 180 radius? Cmon. > > > > You are supposed to stay up close tho. 180 radius is the same size as symbols, its perfectly fine imo. Do you think a 400~600 healing with 300 range on staff 1 would be enough? I would just pick druid, ele or rev if i needed to heal people from far away, but thats just my personal prefference i guess. I just hope anet don't make guardian more tankier than it currently is, we don't need that kitten in PvP/WvW. > > I understand where you are coming from, but I'm telling you, people would have to be stacked on top of each other supppper tight in order to benefit from the mace auto attack. A 300 ranged heal on staff would be awesome because it wouldn't require a target to heal others, same thing that eles can do. I see. Also, being able to heal on every hit would be cool, since mace only heal on the 3rd hit on the chain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RabbitUp.8294 Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 > @Alehin.3746 said: > > @RabbitUp.8294 said: > > > @Alehin.3746 said: > > > > @Incarne.4927 said: > > > > > > > I would love to see a video of you completing a raid as a healing guardian, if it's something you're willing to do. > > > The only fights that i don't heal as a guardian is Gorseval, KC and Xera, because of entangle, spirit ress and dps buffs. Everything is else is perfectly doable as a guardian, specially wing 2 and 4. Not sure if i can record videos on my computer, but feel free to join me whenever you see me online in the aerodrome. > > > > > > >heal guard is nowhere near the levels of the heals/support and utility a Druid or Tempest can dish out > > > > > > Ouch, that hurts to read. Perma resistance, reflects, condi cleanse, stability, aegis, etc. Druid and eles don't provide any of those boons/utility, except condi cleanse, but it's way less reliable than a firebrand. . Yes, druid provide a lot of damage buffs to the party, but **you don't need those dps buffs to clear raids.** I preffer to make fights easier/safer and doing it in 1 or 2 tries than going for a "faster clear" that takes a lot more tries. Thats just me tho. > > > > Good job, you found a group willing to carry you, so what? Firebrand remains a strictly inferior choice to any meta support spec. And that's even with your obvious lies like FB providing perma resistance. > > "Carried", when i solo heal several encounters so we can have another dps or a condi druid? hahaha. I play condi druid when i raid with my static group, for fast clears, but **that doesn't mean condi/magi druid is the only viable option for healers in the game**. By perma resistance i meant "more than 40 seconds of resistance", which can also be 40 seconds of reflects, or extra toughness, or stab. Please, play the class/build a little bit more before talking about it. lmao > > >meta meta meta meta > > You don't need to be a meta-slave to clear raids and have fun. > > > > > You don't need dps buffs to clear raids? Guess what, you also don't need healers to clear them, so your heal guardian is useless. Your only contribution is carrying lesser skilled players > > Guess what, a lot of people on the pug community are "low skilled", so you definitively need to keep them alive instead of flaming themn while you play condi druid. Dead pugs can't dps, so your dps buffs goes to waste. I'm talking about pugs here, not high level static raids. > > >and mesmer distorting every mechanic. > > What do you do when you die because you mesmer failed to distort? Do you flame them or just kick from your group? kek > > >reducing the time of the fight > Yeah, lets clear matthias in 8m instead of 8m 40s, that will save the pugs from the danger. > > > > > > Found the problem. You can't expect a class to do DPS and support at the same time with the same quality as full dps/support builds. > > > > Guess what, that's exactly what druid is doing. Except that their damage comes from buffing group dps, so its flies under the radar. Support firebrand has both bad personal dps and no group dps. > I meant to say "the class", not "a class". I understand that, its one of the reasons why i think anet should nerf druids instead of buffing other supports. > > > > > > If you're camping tomes and spamming 1, you're just doing it wrong. You have plenty of sustain from mace/hammer/staff, selfless daring, pure of heart procs and virtue passive. Tomes have a long cooldown, you should save them for situations that really need its utilities, just like overload water and celestial avatar. > > > > Except that druid *does* spam their CA on cd, which is 10s. Even Overload Water has 20s to Tome's 40s. See the difference? Neither ele nor druid have to "save" anything. Tome's healing might as well not be there. It's a cleansing tool, burst healing barely matters in this game, so when you pop it, chances are a lot of that healing will go to waste, but the cooldown will be the same ragardless. > > Whoops, i meant "unlike". But yeah, they can just spam it, you (fb) dont. You don't need burst healing, i agree with that, thats why you should save it for when you need cleanse. > > >you don't need healing on raids > > Then why do you guys want staff to be buffed? It certainly won't make guardian a "top tier healer" in raids and will make it become overpowered in PvP/WvW, so whats the point? :thinking: > > >! typing half asleep on mobile always go wrong, sorry for the confusion Yes, you offer 40s of resistance by afking on F3, rendering you otherwise useless. You only face condi pressure in 2 fights, and Slothazor can be mitigated more effectively in other ways, so yeah, we are talking about a Matthias build, that is inferior anywhere else. Even for making raids "easier", stability and aegis are completely negligible and cleanses have limited use. You can carry even a monkey behind a keyboard by going magi druid and dropping a Stone Spirit, and you would be ten times more useful. Or if you want to go the off-meta route, aura ele can cleanse and grant protection, help the downed, skip mechanics with Rebound, and provide much more healing. And you said it yourself, ele and druid have better range, so why go guardian then, when I get no compensation? As for the meta slave comment, it was never a question whether you can finish a raid with a healer guard, you absolutely can. The point is that you are significantly worse than other options, and that's a clear imbalance that needs to be addressed. As for you worrying about pvp, staff can provide healing on auto that doesn't affect guardian themselves, like how torch 5 works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incarne.4927 Posted October 27, 2017 Author Share Posted October 27, 2017 > @RabbitUp.8294 said: > As for you worrying about pvp, staff can provide healing on auto that doesn't affect guardian themselves, like how torch 5 works. I was thinking that as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alehin.3746 Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 > @RabbitUp.8294 said: >Yes, you offer 40s of resistance by afking on F3, rendering you otherwise useless. Do i need to do anything else when doing that? I don't think i do, my subgroup is always safe. >You only face condi pressure in 2 fights, and Slothazor can be mitigated more effectively in other ways, so yeah, we are talking about a Matthias build, that is inferior anywhere else. Inferior? Can agree with that. Bad? Nope, it's more than enough for raids. >stability and aegis are completely negligible Say that to people that can't dodge/stunbreak. I am their hero. I make Narella, Matthias and Sloth ezpz for them. >why play X when Y does this and that Because it's fun. I've been playing magi/condi druid for too long, it got very boring. I don't see a reason to play the game if i'm not having fun. **I know druid is the best pick for healing**, i play it when my static group needs me, i just don't like doing it. I found guard a decent alternative that have working pretty well for ages, specially now that i can have firebrand instead of valor. Not sure why people get so annoyed by this. >As for you worrying about pvp, staff can provide healing on auto that doesn't affect guardian themselves, like how torch 5 works. Thats a pretty good idea actually, but i think anet should at least increase the range then. 300 is just too short for a "ranged" weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incarne.4927 Posted October 27, 2017 Author Share Posted October 27, 2017 > @Alehin.3746 said: > > >As for you worrying about pvp, staff can provide healing on auto that doesn't affect guardian themselves, like how torch 5 works. > > Thats a pretty good idea actually, but i think anet should at least increase the range then. 300 is just too short for a "ranged" weapon. That was my intent behind this whole thread, to have a form of healing outside of tomes that is reliable :dizzy: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brutaly.6257 Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 > > @Brutaly.6257 said: > > @"Alehin.3746" > > Where do you find 40 sec of resistance or is it some sort of glitch when translating from your native language? > > > > With resistance do you mean protection? > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chapter_4:_Stalwart_Stand + https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Archivist_of_Whispers > > > @Incarne.4927 said: > > > @Alehin.3746 said: > > > > @Incarne.4927 said: > > > > I agree with alot of what @"RabbitUp.8294" says but mainly about the Tome's burst healing, which would be a waste to not camp inside of tome. If you didnt camp it, you would then have a huge cooldown leaving you without a major part of Firebrand support. I made a video demonstrating what I can do with my build. It offers good heals but lacks a proper support weapon to keep people healed while our tomes are on CD. I feel as though mace is a tank weapon more than a support weapon: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Renewed focus is an option I switch between, but either way, you are forced to camp tomes as a support because of there not being a proper support weapon option. If you let go of your tomes early you are cutting your support in half pretty much, left with only personal blocks and your personal heal. > > > > > > That video just show how guardian doesn't need more healing. You didn't even had a target, like you said, and you're using Axe, which is a condition damage focused weapon, instead of another mace+focus or staff. > > > > > > I don't see the point of buffing it even more, mace does a pretty good job already. All of this sounds like just more powercreep to me. > > > > > > Edit: What if they changed Honorable Staff and made it change how staff 1 works, so people would have to choose betwen Honorable Staff and Pure of Heart. I think that would be pretty cool. > > > > The video I made does show how good guardian heals can be, but you fail to realize that they rely on tomes very heavily. The skills outside of tome are more of a self sustain than a group support, which makes me function more as a tank than a support. The fact that I didn't have a target goes back to the self sustain thing, the radius for mace auto attack chain is 180, and I need an enemy target! So in the end, Mace functions more as a self sustain/ tank weapon more than a support weapon for the group. Shield is a fine support weapon though. Also, the reason I use Axe+Focus is for utility like CC and grouping enemies for the team to dps them down. It won't be a power creep if they add a heal to Staff auto attack, because like I said the other support classes have a form of dedicated healing so why can't Guardian. When tomes are down, you are a sitting duck that can only rely on Mace 3 for a block, since Mace 1 isn't a reliable form of healing for others. Just think about it, 180 radius? Cmon. > > You are supposed to stay up close tho. 180 radius is the same size as symbols, its perfectly fine imo. Do you think a 400~600 healing with 300 range on staff 1 would be enough? I would just pick druid, ele or rev if i needed to heal people from far away, but thats just my personal prefference i guess. I just hope anet don't make guardian more tankier than it currently is, we don't need that kitten in PvP/WvW. I suspected that would be the answer. You seriously suggest giving up all other options/damage/support and wait in the tome and throw one skill every 10th second? Dont get me wrong i just hate meta and like to play fun builds but using one spell every 10th second and camping tomes is useless from a meta perspective and only 1 or two players in the entire playerbase might find it fun. Your scenario is just to far fetched even for me. Stating guardians has good healing is just weird. I play a support necro atm and i can heal more, not in raw numbers but the usability on the skills are superior. I would even use my shout/banner war in clerics instead of my guardian if i wanted to heal stuff. Guardian healing skills are better suited for selfsustain, not healing others. Mace is an excellent example. Close to useless as a healer weapon in pvp and wvw. Its a bunker weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brutaly.6257 Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 > @Incarne.4927 said: > to have a form of healing outside of tomes that is reliable :dizzy: This is exactly what is lacking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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