mortrialus.3062 Posted April 16, 2019 Author Share Posted April 16, 2019 > @"coro.3176" said: > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > @"Chaith.8256" said: > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > Holosmith's damage out put by itself is not problematic. > > > > > > > > This is so incredibly short-sighted its like you have no imagination at all! You could easily nerf Holo sustain by ANY measure you want by adjusting Heat Therapy, increasing heat gains, nerfing Vent Exhaust. Trust me, there are vast ways to nerf a spec's offensive/defensive utility, damage, or sustain just by changing the elite spec's abilities and traits. This is a super absurd notion to be honest. You could nerf Heat therapy from anywhere between 30-90% to whatever balance goal your heart desires, and it'd just be a simple number change. > > > > > > And it would still never be the high risk high reward glass cannon it was intended to be, just because of alchemy+inventions and the most overtuned core healing skills in the game. You would need to adjust fundamentals in the specialization itself like just picking holosmith increases all incoming damage by 10%, or but reworking the entire mechanic of heat gains so that overheating is an actual risk every holosmith needs to be acutely aware of. > > > > A serious reduction in heat therapy is massive nerf in the sustain of holo. Increasing passive heat generation or heat generation on certain skills can reduce the damage output and survivability of holo. I'm not sure you understand how big of nerfs those would be: > > > > * Heat Therapy can theoretically heal over 6500 health per full heat cycle, which can happen nearly every 30 seconds. > > * Corona Burst provides a significant source of stability. Increasing heat gen on it will reduce damage output and make holos have to choose between stability or damage. > > * Holographic shockwave does large AoE CC and some fair damage. This is useful for both sustain and offense. > > * And the synergy between holo leap and invigorating speed allows for extra vigor, and therefore defense. > > > > Changing the numbers on any of those could have massive balance impacts on holo without impacting core in the slightest. > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > Your philosophy on balance, for engineer to be made up of 33% core, 33% scrapper 33% holo in terms of usage and performance is an impossible pipe dream > > > > > > > > Don't try to make up a dumb idea, call it my balance philosophy and then attack it. Lol, that's absurd. I don't want equal outcome for every spec. > > > > This isn't affirmative action 101. This is keeping in line with ARENANET's philosophy where elite specs are not vertical progression, it's an anti-p2w philosophy that practically everyone in the entire game agrees with. > > > > > > > > I don't expect equal representation between core and elite specs. But they should be closer to kitten good alternatives instead of further. > > > > > > You literally have a thread about making all aspects of engineer as good as possible so that literally anything can be run and be amazing with no regard for how any of it will synergize with the rest of it. Basically making ever skill and trait outrageously OP top tier once you actually take a look at how they synergize with each other outside of a vacuum. > > > > Way to summarize a several-years-long thread that's an attempt to fix unbalanced stuff without making it too powerful or too weak. Hasty generalization much? > > > > If you [read the thread](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/15746/how-to-balance-every-single-thing-thats-bad-on-engineer-pvp/p1 "read the thread"), they're pretty good suggestions. I think some things don't go far enough, but they would generally be balanced. > > To use Holosmith as an example, you could remove Heat Therapy entirely as well as every single Holosmith skill and trait and leave nothing except Photon Forge and probably still have a spec better than current core engi. > > Why? Because > > > @"Chaith.8256" said: > > Holosmith doesn't have to spend build choices on damage, (unlike core) and in turn is able to do consistent damage while mostly building for defensive utility. > > The main reason Holosmith is good is because it gets Engineer's best damage + CC weapon (photon forge) and it gives up basically nothing (a single toolbelt skill) to get it. > > In order to come close to equalling this damage, a core engi needs to spend maybe 2 traitlines worth of traits and probably at least 2/3 of their utility skills. Holosmith can fill all of these with defensive options instead and STILL have crazy damage without really having to invest in it in their build. It just comes for free with the elite spec. I think the heat mechanic actually needs to add some serious element of risk to playing Holo if it's going to come with such a powerful damage + CC package. > > I recognize that not every elite spec is like this. You can point to Reaper/Scourge as at least in principle balanceable specs because they trade off their shroud mechanics. Kind of related but I've always been of the opinion that Continuum Split and 1 second duration Mirage Cloak should have replaced Distortion for Chronomancer and Mirage respectively. Continuum split is kind of inherently unbalancable and would still be a better pick than distortion in all situations if you had to make a clear choice between the two but at least there is some sacrifice rather than Chronomancer just being a 100% upgrade to mesmer. And Mirage losing distortion but having a longer dodge means they're trading burst invulnerability for a lot more dodge frames over the course of a longer encounter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagrant.7206 Posted April 16, 2019 Share Posted April 16, 2019 > @"coro.3176" said: > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > @"Chaith.8256" said: > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > Holosmith's damage out put by itself is not problematic. > > > > > > > > This is so incredibly short-sighted its like you have no imagination at all! You could easily nerf Holo sustain by ANY measure you want by adjusting Heat Therapy, increasing heat gains, nerfing Vent Exhaust. Trust me, there are vast ways to nerf a spec's offensive/defensive utility, damage, or sustain just by changing the elite spec's abilities and traits. This is a super absurd notion to be honest. You could nerf Heat therapy from anywhere between 30-90% to whatever balance goal your heart desires, and it'd just be a simple number change. > > > > > > And it would still never be the high risk high reward glass cannon it was intended to be, just because of alchemy+inventions and the most overtuned core healing skills in the game. You would need to adjust fundamentals in the specialization itself like just picking holosmith increases all incoming damage by 10%, or but reworking the entire mechanic of heat gains so that overheating is an actual risk every holosmith needs to be acutely aware of. > > > > A serious reduction in heat therapy is massive nerf in the sustain of holo. Increasing passive heat generation or heat generation on certain skills can reduce the damage output and survivability of holo. I'm not sure you understand how big of nerfs those would be: > > > > * Heat Therapy can theoretically heal over 6500 health per full heat cycle, which can happen nearly every 30 seconds. > > * Corona Burst provides a significant source of stability. Increasing heat gen on it will reduce damage output and make holos have to choose between stability or damage. > > * Holographic shockwave does large AoE CC and some fair damage. This is useful for both sustain and offense. > > * And the synergy between holo leap and invigorating speed allows for extra vigor, and therefore defense. > > > > Changing the numbers on any of those could have massive balance impacts on holo without impacting core in the slightest. > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > Your philosophy on balance, for engineer to be made up of 33% core, 33% scrapper 33% holo in terms of usage and performance is an impossible pipe dream > > > > > > > > Don't try to make up a dumb idea, call it my balance philosophy and then attack it. Lol, that's absurd. I don't want equal outcome for every spec. > > > > This isn't affirmative action 101. This is keeping in line with ARENANET's philosophy where elite specs are not vertical progression, it's an anti-p2w philosophy that practically everyone in the entire game agrees with. > > > > > > > > I don't expect equal representation between core and elite specs. But they should be closer to kitten good alternatives instead of further. > > > > > > You literally have a thread about making all aspects of engineer as good as possible so that literally anything can be run and be amazing with no regard for how any of it will synergize with the rest of it. Basically making ever skill and trait outrageously OP top tier once you actually take a look at how they synergize with each other outside of a vacuum. > > > > Way to summarize a several-years-long thread that's an attempt to fix unbalanced stuff without making it too powerful or too weak. Hasty generalization much? > > > > If you [read the thread](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/15746/how-to-balance-every-single-thing-thats-bad-on-engineer-pvp/p1 "read the thread"), they're pretty good suggestions. I think some things don't go far enough, but they would generally be balanced. > > To use Holosmith as an example, you could remove Heat Therapy entirely as well as every single Holosmith skill and trait and leave nothing except Photon Forge and probably still have a spec better than current core engi. > > Why? Because > > > @"Chaith.8256" said: > > Holosmith doesn't have to spend build choices on damage, (unlike core) and in turn is able to do consistent damage while mostly building for defensive utility. > > The main reason Holosmith is good is because it gets Engineer's best damage + CC weapon (photon forge) and it gives up basically nothing (a single toolbelt skill) to get it. > > In order to come close to equalling this damage, a core engi needs to spend maybe 2 traitlines worth of traits and probably at least 2/3 of their utility skills. Holosmith can fill all of these with defensive options instead and STILL have crazy damage without really having to invest in it in their build. It just comes for free with the elite spec. I think the heat mechanic actually needs to add some serious element of risk to playing Holo if it's going to come with such a powerful damage + CC package. > > I recognize that not every elite spec is like this. You can point to Reaper/Scourge as at least in principle balanceable specs because they trade off their shroud mechanics. Well, the damage is only insane if your gear is set up for it -- if your gear is set up to tank as well, you'll still only hit like a wet noodle. You could easily change the power scaling of skills in the photon forge, and ANet has done that in the past. There's nothing inherently unbalanced about Photon Forge in and of itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coro.3176 Posted April 16, 2019 Share Posted April 16, 2019 > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > @"coro.3176" said: > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > @"Chaith.8256" said: > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > Holosmith's damage out put by itself is not problematic. > > > > > > > > > > This is so incredibly short-sighted its like you have no imagination at all! You could easily nerf Holo sustain by ANY measure you want by adjusting Heat Therapy, increasing heat gains, nerfing Vent Exhaust. Trust me, there are vast ways to nerf a spec's offensive/defensive utility, damage, or sustain just by changing the elite spec's abilities and traits. This is a super absurd notion to be honest. You could nerf Heat therapy from anywhere between 30-90% to whatever balance goal your heart desires, and it'd just be a simple number change. > > > > > > > > And it would still never be the high risk high reward glass cannon it was intended to be, just because of alchemy+inventions and the most overtuned core healing skills in the game. You would need to adjust fundamentals in the specialization itself like just picking holosmith increases all incoming damage by 10%, or but reworking the entire mechanic of heat gains so that overheating is an actual risk every holosmith needs to be acutely aware of. > > > > > > A serious reduction in heat therapy is massive nerf in the sustain of holo. Increasing passive heat generation or heat generation on certain skills can reduce the damage output and survivability of holo. I'm not sure you understand how big of nerfs those would be: > > > > > > * Heat Therapy can theoretically heal over 6500 health per full heat cycle, which can happen nearly every 30 seconds. > > > * Corona Burst provides a significant source of stability. Increasing heat gen on it will reduce damage output and make holos have to choose between stability or damage. > > > * Holographic shockwave does large AoE CC and some fair damage. This is useful for both sustain and offense. > > > * And the synergy between holo leap and invigorating speed allows for extra vigor, and therefore defense. > > > > > > Changing the numbers on any of those could have massive balance impacts on holo without impacting core in the slightest. > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > Your philosophy on balance, for engineer to be made up of 33% core, 33% scrapper 33% holo in terms of usage and performance is an impossible pipe dream > > > > > > > > > > Don't try to make up a dumb idea, call it my balance philosophy and then attack it. Lol, that's absurd. I don't want equal outcome for every spec. > > > > > This isn't affirmative action 101. This is keeping in line with ARENANET's philosophy where elite specs are not vertical progression, it's an anti-p2w philosophy that practically everyone in the entire game agrees with. > > > > > > > > > > I don't expect equal representation between core and elite specs. But they should be closer to kitten good alternatives instead of further. > > > > > > > > You literally have a thread about making all aspects of engineer as good as possible so that literally anything can be run and be amazing with no regard for how any of it will synergize with the rest of it. Basically making ever skill and trait outrageously OP top tier once you actually take a look at how they synergize with each other outside of a vacuum. > > > > > > Way to summarize a several-years-long thread that's an attempt to fix unbalanced stuff without making it too powerful or too weak. Hasty generalization much? > > > > > > If you [read the thread](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/15746/how-to-balance-every-single-thing-thats-bad-on-engineer-pvp/p1 "read the thread"), they're pretty good suggestions. I think some things don't go far enough, but they would generally be balanced. > > > > To use Holosmith as an example, you could remove Heat Therapy entirely as well as every single Holosmith skill and trait and leave nothing except Photon Forge and probably still have a spec better than current core engi. > > > > Why? Because > > > > > @"Chaith.8256" said: > > > Holosmith doesn't have to spend build choices on damage, (unlike core) and in turn is able to do consistent damage while mostly building for defensive utility. > > > > The main reason Holosmith is good is because it gets Engineer's best damage + CC weapon (photon forge) and it gives up basically nothing (a single toolbelt skill) to get it. > > > > In order to come close to equalling this damage, a core engi needs to spend maybe 2 traitlines worth of traits and probably at least 2/3 of their utility skills. Holosmith can fill all of these with defensive options instead and STILL have crazy damage without really having to invest in it in their build. It just comes for free with the elite spec. I think the heat mechanic actually needs to add some serious element of risk to playing Holo if it's going to come with such a powerful damage + CC package. > > > > I recognize that not every elite spec is like this. You can point to Reaper/Scourge as at least in principle balanceable specs because they trade off their shroud mechanics. > > Well, the damage is only insane if your gear is set up for it -- if your gear is set up to tank as well, you'll still only hit like a wet noodle. You could easily change the power scaling of skills in the photon forge, and ANet has done that in the past. There's nothing inherently unbalanced about Photon Forge in and of itself. > > Holo needs the gear, yes. But core engi needs the gear and the traits and the skills all set up for damage if it wants to compete with holo's damage. Why is that? It's because giving Photon Forge - the best aoe damage available to Engi right now - to Holo for free allows it to spend the majority of its build (aside from gear) on defense. That is inherently unbalanced, IMO. The heat mechanic was supposed to balance it out. That is, it was supposed to be risky to be in Photon Forge and could lead to self-damage from overheating. .. but realistically anyone with 5 minutes practice can avoid overheating in the vast majority of situations. When I play holo, I basically never overheat unless I choose to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagrant.7206 Posted April 16, 2019 Share Posted April 16, 2019 > @"coro.3176" said: > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > @"coro.3176" said: > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > @"Chaith.8256" said: > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > Holosmith's damage out put by itself is not problematic. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is so incredibly short-sighted its like you have no imagination at all! You could easily nerf Holo sustain by ANY measure you want by adjusting Heat Therapy, increasing heat gains, nerfing Vent Exhaust. Trust me, there are vast ways to nerf a spec's offensive/defensive utility, damage, or sustain just by changing the elite spec's abilities and traits. This is a super absurd notion to be honest. You could nerf Heat therapy from anywhere between 30-90% to whatever balance goal your heart desires, and it'd just be a simple number change. > > > > > > > > > > And it would still never be the high risk high reward glass cannon it was intended to be, just because of alchemy+inventions and the most overtuned core healing skills in the game. You would need to adjust fundamentals in the specialization itself like just picking holosmith increases all incoming damage by 10%, or but reworking the entire mechanic of heat gains so that overheating is an actual risk every holosmith needs to be acutely aware of. > > > > > > > > A serious reduction in heat therapy is massive nerf in the sustain of holo. Increasing passive heat generation or heat generation on certain skills can reduce the damage output and survivability of holo. I'm not sure you understand how big of nerfs those would be: > > > > > > > > * Heat Therapy can theoretically heal over 6500 health per full heat cycle, which can happen nearly every 30 seconds. > > > > * Corona Burst provides a significant source of stability. Increasing heat gen on it will reduce damage output and make holos have to choose between stability or damage. > > > > * Holographic shockwave does large AoE CC and some fair damage. This is useful for both sustain and offense. > > > > * And the synergy between holo leap and invigorating speed allows for extra vigor, and therefore defense. > > > > > > > > Changing the numbers on any of those could have massive balance impacts on holo without impacting core in the slightest. > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > Your philosophy on balance, for engineer to be made up of 33% core, 33% scrapper 33% holo in terms of usage and performance is an impossible pipe dream > > > > > > > > > > > > Don't try to make up a dumb idea, call it my balance philosophy and then attack it. Lol, that's absurd. I don't want equal outcome for every spec. > > > > > > This isn't affirmative action 101. This is keeping in line with ARENANET's philosophy where elite specs are not vertical progression, it's an anti-p2w philosophy that practically everyone in the entire game agrees with. > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't expect equal representation between core and elite specs. But they should be closer to kitten good alternatives instead of further. > > > > > > > > > > You literally have a thread about making all aspects of engineer as good as possible so that literally anything can be run and be amazing with no regard for how any of it will synergize with the rest of it. Basically making ever skill and trait outrageously OP top tier once you actually take a look at how they synergize with each other outside of a vacuum. > > > > > > > > Way to summarize a several-years-long thread that's an attempt to fix unbalanced stuff without making it too powerful or too weak. Hasty generalization much? > > > > > > > > If you [read the thread](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/15746/how-to-balance-every-single-thing-thats-bad-on-engineer-pvp/p1 "read the thread"), they're pretty good suggestions. I think some things don't go far enough, but they would generally be balanced. > > > > > > To use Holosmith as an example, you could remove Heat Therapy entirely as well as every single Holosmith skill and trait and leave nothing except Photon Forge and probably still have a spec better than current core engi. > > > > > > Why? Because > > > > > > > @"Chaith.8256" said: > > > > Holosmith doesn't have to spend build choices on damage, (unlike core) and in turn is able to do consistent damage while mostly building for defensive utility. > > > > > > The main reason Holosmith is good is because it gets Engineer's best damage + CC weapon (photon forge) and it gives up basically nothing (a single toolbelt skill) to get it. > > > > > > In order to come close to equalling this damage, a core engi needs to spend maybe 2 traitlines worth of traits and probably at least 2/3 of their utility skills. Holosmith can fill all of these with defensive options instead and STILL have crazy damage without really having to invest in it in their build. It just comes for free with the elite spec. I think the heat mechanic actually needs to add some serious element of risk to playing Holo if it's going to come with such a powerful damage + CC package. > > > > > > I recognize that not every elite spec is like this. You can point to Reaper/Scourge as at least in principle balanceable specs because they trade off their shroud mechanics. > > > > Well, the damage is only insane if your gear is set up for it -- if your gear is set up to tank as well, you'll still only hit like a wet noodle. You could easily change the power scaling of skills in the photon forge, and ANet has done that in the past. There's nothing inherently unbalanced about Photon Forge in and of itself. > > > > > > Holo needs the gear, yes. > > But core engi needs the gear and the traits and the skills all set up for damage if it wants to compete with holo's damage. > > Why is that? It's because giving Photon Forge - the best aoe damage available to Engi right now - to Holo for free allows it to spend the majority of its build (aside from gear) on defense. That is inherently unbalanced, IMO. > > The heat mechanic was supposed to balance it out. That is, it was supposed to be risky to be in Photon Forge and could lead to self-damage from overheating. > .. but realistically anyone with 5 minutes practice can avoid overheating in the vast majority of situations. When I play holo, I basically never overheat unless I choose to. Yeah, but the heat mechanic itself also wasn't fully fleshed out. You can tell because ECSU only works on sword skills, and the only weapon to benefit from heat is sword. They either didn't have the time or didn't care to fully flesh out the ramifications of the heat mechanic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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