Can we do away with expansion-specific stat sets?

[Agent Noun.7350]

Are there plans to make Heart of Thorns-specific stat sets like Viper's and Commander's available in other parts of the game world?

 

I own Heart of Thorns and I have those recipes, so it's not a huge deal for me, but I think in the long term, there needs to be another source of the recipes and the required materials for that kind of gear. Viper's, especially, might represent a problem--it's functionally mandatory for an entire play style (PvE condi builds), and it's only going to get more expensive to craft with each expansion as fewer people play the kind of content where Black Diamonds drop.

 

For the record, I have no problem with ascended armor being expensive. The only place where you really need it is also a great source of gold, so it makes sense. But I think exotic gear for any stat set should be roughly equally accessible. In the long term, I think it would be a good idea to make Viper's, Commander's, and other expansion-specific stat sets just as accessible as things like Berserker's, and ideally let players buy and sell them on the Trading Post, too. GW2 built itself on a lack of a gear treadmill, and while there still isn't really one, the larger investment inherent in making a condi or support build compared to a (less effective) power build does create a much higher barrier of entry than might be intended.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

I don't think so. This is expansion content and should stay gated by expansion areas.

[Agent Noun.7350]

> @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> I don't think so. This is expansion content and should stay gated by expansion areas.

 

Why, though? If these were niche stat sets like Grieving, maybe I'd understand. But Viper's is functionally mandatory for the majority of good PvE DPS builds these days, and it's already far more expensive to get because there are fewer people running the content that drops the mats for it. When the next expansion comes out, it'll get even worse, as the player base further leaves Heart of Thorns areas behind.

 

Should GW2 really become the kind of game where people need to go grind mats for hours to get even exotic gear, but only if they want to play a condi build?

 

Put another way: I don't think attribute combinations constitute content. Elite specs, sure. Zones, absolutely. But Heart of Thorns functionally gates off an entire play style, and that's contrary to GW2's otherwise generally accessible approach to PvE.

[Ashantara.8731]

> @"Agent Noun.7350" said:

> Are there plans to make Heart of Thorns-specific stat sets like Viper's and Commander's available in other parts of the game world?

 

"In other parts of the world"?? **As of now, they are not even available in PoF!** :angry:

 

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"Agent Noun.7350" said:

> > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > I don't think so. This is expansion content and should stay gated by expansion areas.

>

> But Viper's is functionally mandatory for the majority of good PvE DPS builds these days

 

This is how you design content. To give people reason to go back to old areas of the game.

 

 

[Agent Noun.7350]

> @Ashantara.8731 said:

> > @"Agent Noun.7350" said:

> > Are there plans to make Heart of Thorns-specific stat sets like Viper's and Commander's available in other parts of the game world?

>

> "In other parts of the world"?? **As of now, they are not even available in PoF!** :angry:

 

That's what I mean. They're Heart of Thorns-specific, and there's every indication they're going to stay that way, just like Grieving is probably going to stay Path of Fire-specific. Grieving is significantly more niche, though--as of now, there's exactly one spec that does really well with it, and that spec does well with Viper or Sinister gear, too.

 

> @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > @"Agent Noun.7350" said:

> > > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > I don't think so. This is expansion content and should stay gated by expansion areas.

> >

> > But Viper's is functionally mandatory for the majority of good PvE DPS builds these days

>

> This is how you design content. To give people reason to go back to old areas of the game.

 

But here's the thing: that constitutes mandatory grind for even casual PvE players for an entire play style. That is extremely _bad_ design.

 

GW2 already has ways to make people go back to old areas. Want to glide? You need to do Heart of Thorns. Want Bladed or Leystone skins, or any of the Heart of Thorns legendaries? You gotta do Heart of Thorns. You've got the specialization collections. The useful stat-selectable ascended trinkets from LS3 zones. That's already a lot of reasons to go back.

 

Here's my thing: before Heart of Thorns, GW2 was not a game that asked you to grind for gameplay reasons. For cosmetics, absolutely, but not for gameplay. With Heart of Thorns, a whole new play style became viable (and then, slowly, optimal) in PvE, but only by using an attribute combination that is significantly less accessible than others. And now, with Path of Fire's release, it's become _less_ accessible, and will continue to do so.

 

It already costs over 100g to craft a set of exotic Viper's gear, which is five times what it costs to make a set of exotic Berserker's gear. Over the last couple of weeks, the price of Black Diamonds (which are required to craft any kind of Viper's gear) has _quadrupled_ because fewer people are running Heart of Thorns areas. That's going to get worse over time, and even worse when the next expansion releases. Eventually, buying it won't be an option anymore for all but the wealthiest players, and you'll have to go and grind Heart of Thorns for a good, long while to get those Black Diamonds. I don't think it's a good idea to have a mandatory attribute set for the vast majority of strong PvE builds be gated behind that kind of grind, especially when a couple of professions who are lucky enough to have strong power builds can just drop some karma and they're good to go. It creates a really undesirable imbalance.

 

There's a way to do expansion-specific attribute combinations, but this isn't that way. If they're niche things, if they enable weird and specific builds, that's cool. Or if core Tyria had a Power/Precision/Condition Damage/Expertise set but with a different focus, like maybe Precision/Condition Damage are the primary attributes instead of Power/Condition Damage, that'd be fine--there'd be a functional alternative available until you can get the optimal set.

 

But when there's only one functional condition damage attribute combination for everyone who isn't an Elementalist or Firebrand, it should be comparable in price and accessibility to the only functional power damage gear--otherwise, the game is punishing players for their build choice, and that's not a good way to design.

[Einlanzer.1627]

I can't help but intuitively feel like the whole way Anet handles gear stats is flawed, but I haven't really come up with a better approach.

[Agent Noun.7350]

> @Einlanzer.1627 said:

> I can't help but intuitively feel like the whole way Anet handles gear stats is flawed, but I haven't really come up with a better approach.

 

I've thought about it a lot recently. This is off the main topic, but it's my opinion that Expertise and Ferocity are stats that probably shouldn't exist--they end up causing two other stats (Condition Damage and Precision, respectively) to have them as mandatory companions.

 

With Expertise, if you're not lucky enough to be playing a spec that can focus on one condition (Firebrand and condi Elementalists), you need Expertise with your Condition Damage or you're really crippling yourself. It's practically mandatory that you have Expertise on every piece of gear. As of right now, the only way to pull that off without significantly hobbling yourself is to wear Viper's.

 

Meanwhile, Ferocity might be even worse. High Power won't get you all that far without high Precision, which also won't get you all that far without high Ferocity. If you ask me, that's too many stats to make completely reliant on each other. I think it also introduces a problem when it comes to balancing Power damage: any time you increase it, you have to account for how much _more_ you're increasing it for builds with high Precision and high Ferocity. For an example of how powerful a Ferocity boost can be, take a look at the 10k DPS leap between staff Tempest and staff Weaver in similar situations. (Obviously Weaver has some huge weaknesses that come with it, but its damage boosts coupled with its large Ferocity bump make a _huge_ difference.) It also means that any increase to Power damage is also functionally an increase to burst damage, and without a meaningful PvE/PvP balance split, that's something they have to be _really_ cautious about. It's really hard to buff Power builds and I think Ferocity, coupled with the extremely high crit rate you can achieve, is part of the reason why.

 

That said, I'm not really sure what the solution is. My gut says to remove both Expertise and Ferocity. Give conditions a reasonable base duration that's higher than it is now. Traits, sigils, and runes that boost the duration of specific conditions can stick around. As for Ferocity, don't replace it with anything and instead increase the effect of Power on physical damage. Your crits wouldn't produce as huge of numbers as they do now, but your base non-crit Power damage would be a lot higher, which would make it easier to balance for sustained Power DPS without having to account for a huge increase in burst damage.

 

Obviously that's a huge project, though, and would require almost every popular attribute combination in the game to be reworked. Other MMOs have made similar changes, though, like how Final Fantasy XIV's latest expansion ditched its "stat tax" attributes like Accuracy and Parry. Those stats didn't add any meaningful choices and were just required to be at certain levels for DPS and tank roles, respectively, so there was functionally no reason for them to exist. Ferocity and Expertise aren't _quite_ the same thing, but every power build needs as much Precision and Ferocity as possible and every condi build needs to hit a certain Expertise quota (again, unless you're playing a mono-condition spec) and that ends up really limiting your gear options and ArenaNet's rebalancing options.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> But here's the thing: that constitutes mandatory grind for even casual PvE players for an entire play style. That is extremely bad design.

 

That is extremely good design. MMO = grind. Without grind people would left this game after 2 months. GW2 is no exception, devs HAVE TO design parts of the content to be a grind.

 

And about being casula PvE player... you don't need viper stat's or any optimal stat set for casual play. There are other condition stat mixes, not optimal but still possible to use for you.

[Agent Noun.7350]

> @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > But here's the thing: that constitutes mandatory grind for even casual PvE players for an entire play style. That is extremely bad design.

>

> That is extremely good design. MMO = grind. Without grind people would left this game after 2 months. GW2 is no exception, devs HAVE TO design parts of the content to be a grind.

 

People did plenty of grinding in GW2 before they had to grind for attribute combinations. Grinding for basic gameplay competence was not, before HoT, GW2's way of doing things. You'd grind for cosmetics or for ascended gear (if you wanted to run high-level fractals or wanted that extra stat edge). And people absolutely did that. A lot.

 

I have no problem with grind existing in the game. Getting ascended armor involves grinding, and I'm not arguing that ascended armor should be easier to get. I'm saying that you shouldn't need to grind to _get started_ playing a condition build. To get ascended gear, yeah, sure, absolutely. Moving up in fractal tiers should require time and effort, and it does. Getting legendary weapons and armor? Yep, grind away. But grind should be something that comes after you're comfortable, after your build is functional and playable--grind should be the thing you do when you're already playing your character, not the thing you do in order _to_ play your character. And even then, only if you want to play a good condition build.

 

And that's the other thing: if this level of grind was applied universally, I don't think I'd notice. If exotic Berserker's gear and exotic Viper's gear were equally difficult to get--if all exotic gear, for that matter, was as expensive as Viper's and Commander's--it would be normal and fair. I personally wouldn't _like_ it very much, but that's a different argument entirely. My argument is that the price you pay to be effective with a power build versus a condition build is _extremely_ lopsided, and it shouldn't be that way.

 

> @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> And about being casula PvE player... you don't need viper stat's or any optimal stat set for casual play. There are other condition stat mixes, not optimal but still possible to use for you.

 

I'd argue that, for condition damage, that's not really the case, especially if you're playing in group PvE. Open world, sure, roll Carrion, Dire, or Rampager, but if you're doing anything where enemies survive longer than half a minute, you need Expertise to do well.

 

[GrubySzymek.1362]

If you play endgame instanced pve you are not casual, so make an effort in getting right gear.

 

Viper's are not "basic", these are endgame, luxury stat set. For "basic" gameplay you can choose any condition stat combo of those available from "easy" sources.

[Agent Noun.7350]

> @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> If you play endgame instanced pve you are not casual, so make an effort in getting right gear.

>

> Viper's are not "basic", these are endgame, luxury stat set. For "basic" gameplay you can choose any condition stat combo of those available from "easy" sources.

 

Would you argue that Berserker's is also a luxury stat set? It's as critical to a good power build as Viper's is to a good condition build. Shouldn't it be just as hard to get?

 

Frankly, I think the idea of a "luxury stat set" is absolutely absurd in a game like Guild Wars 2. A luxury is something like stat-swappable legendary weapons and armor, not the ability to do good condition DPS in the first place.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

Berserker's was introduced before HoT and even before condition damage revamp, so it would be inapropriate to change its aquisition after 3 years.

 

Also, game favours condition builds now, so berserker's gear is definitely not as popular in meta game as it was 3 years ago.

[Agent Noun.7350]

But they're comparable stat sets. They're both the best option for their respective build types. I don't care _when_ they were added--two years from now, when the next expansion releases, that isn't what's going to matter. I care what role they fill.

 

Viper's and Berserker fill the same role as the best available stat set for condition and power builds, respectively. It's very weird to make one of those a luxury and the other one not just because of when they were added to the game.

 

Guild Wars 2 began as a game that tried to avoid tying player effectiveness to in-game wealth or grind. Even when they added ascended armor--a considerable investment--it was only a small stat increase over exotic, so small that the only real reason to make it at all is if you want to do the highest-level fractals. Viper's (and to a lesser extent Commander's) violates that, and I don't think that's a good thing.

 

How about this as a compromise: make Black Diamonds, Maguuma Burls, and other necessary materials drop in PoF and core Tyria zones, but keep the _recipes_ for Viper's (and other HoT stat set) gear account bound and only in HoT. You still need to do HoT content to get the recipes, but you don't have to grind it for the materials.

[ValeN.3129]

You can get that equipment on WvW and PvP, raid or fractal game modes.

 

Alternatively, you can make the cheapest set and swap its attributes with a mystic forge recipe. That doesn't work for backpacks and trinkets, however. There are plenty of ways to get equipment, for different types of players. I also feel they will keep working on providing more options.

 

I feel your complain is not justified.

[Ashantara.8731]

> @"Agent Noun.7350" said:

> > @Ashantara.8731 said:

> > > @"Agent Noun.7350" said:

> > > Are there plans to make Heart of Thorns-specific stat sets like Viper's and Commander's available in other parts of the game world?

> >

> > "In other parts of the world"?? **As of now, they are not even available in PoF!** :angry:

>

> That's what I mean. They're Heart of Thorns-specific, and there's every indication they're going to stay that way, just like Grieving is probably going to stay Path of Fire-specific. Grieving is significantly more niche, though--as of now, there's exactly one spec that does really well with it, and that spec does well with Viper or Sinister gear, too.

 

That is _not_ what I meant. I was saying that the new PoF stats are currently unavailable in PoF, which stinks.

 

I like having expansion-specific stat combos, **but there needs to be access to them is the respective expansion** like you used to have access to HoT stats in HoT.

[diamondgirl.6315]

> @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > But here's the thing: that constitutes mandatory grind for even casual PvE players for an entire play style. That is extremely bad design.

>

> That is extremely good design. MMO = grind. Without grind people would left this game after 2 months. GW2 is no exception, devs HAVE TO design parts of the content to be a grind.

>

> And about being casula PvE player... you don't need viper stat's or any optimal stat set for casual play. There are other condition stat mixes, not optimal but still possible to use for you.

 

It's not good design if it isn't consistent across the board for all the playstyles.

[Hevoskuuri.3891]

I agree there should be a realiable and a bit easier way to acquire exotics with any stats. GW2 has always put a huge emphasis on minimal gear grind, but the moment you want to be effective in group instanced content, there IS a gear grind, since gear with expansion stats has to be crafted or acquired via other, longer-term methods.

 

Just give us a vendor that will sell a full set of account-bound exotics with selectable stats for like 100g or something.

[Makai.3429]

I'd like to see automatic binding removed from special exotics like Celestial and Viper's so the equipment can be traded. A friend of mine keeps wanting to play Condi Mirage in PvE, and I'd love to send her a Viper's set, but nope, she's stuck with rubbish like Rabid/Dire/Carrion.