Drawbacks to elite specializations

[lisica.6583]

Mesmer main - I bought 2 expansions and now I play core Mesmer due to Chrono changes and not linking Mirage... Feels good, money well spent. Thanks.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Khisanth.2948" said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > @"Mortifera.6138" said:

> > > They’re called “elite” specializations.

> > >

> > > Why should they be on the same power level as core specs?

> >

> > Just as "expertise" means "more condition duration" (rather than "expert knowledge in a particular field"), "elite" doesn't mean "superior." "Elite" is a jargon word used by ANet to indicate "not available to free-to-play." Largely, it's turned out that players feel elite specs are superior (for good reasons); that doesn't mean that it must be that way.

>

> They are probably called elite for the same reason the game is is called guild wars despite the lack of GvG ... because "elite" in GW context means "you can have only one of these at a time". "You can only have one of these active at a time spec" just don't roll off the tongue very well.

Actually, the name is used in the right context. Elite doesn't really mean "better". What it truly is is "exclusive" - and that's what those especs are, exclusive to the owners of the specific expac.

 

[Luthan.5236]

Imo - but I haven't bought any expansions yet and still playing core - the elite specs should be designed in a way that it is still a decision between them or using the 3rd slot for a 3rd core specialization. I mean elite basically gives you a new weapon - forcing you to play with this weapon. And it probably would feel weird to trait for another weapon (with the other 2 specs) ... leaving all the other weapon options less relevant. I'm already looking for good hammers for when I buy HoT and play my engineer as scrapper then.

 

But the fun of the core ... shouldn't be taken away. Would mean less options than without the elite. And additional/new stuff should enhance the game. Not make it boring by having less options if the new stuff is so powerful that the only viable option is to play with elite.

 

I guess it isn't an option to change the system so you get the weapons + core mechanis as a different slot option while keeping the other traits separate from it?

I. e: Having access to hammer and other scrapper skills (or holosmith - for engineer. And being abel to choose from this as a 4th thing. But for the main trait lines instead of the traits/spec having one of the core ones. (And even the option to use rifle + core trait line while using scrapper skills.)

 

Afaik (haven't tried since I still play without expansion) you are forced to equip the elite spec in 3rd slot to even get access to all the skills that come with this new "sub class"? So it is basically forcing people to equip one. And then to use lots of (at least 1 or 2) skills from it - otherwise the traits that come with it would be wasted. Less diversity in builds I guess.

 

Edit: And I bet I'm seriously gonna miss my rifle. Playe engi - even though back then pistol and condition damage was the thing to go for - mainly with rifle. And played mainly engineer in this game. I'd prefer to stay with the rifle.

[draxynnic.3719]

> @"Hashberry.4510" said:

> The tradeoff for an elite spec is you do not get to use a core trait line. Adding more disadvantages is a bad move.

 

I think having some form of tradeoff is worthwhile. Necromancer and guardian are good examples of this: you could say that the elite mechanics are better than core shroud and virtues, but they are nevertheless _different,_ and there are situations which come up where the core mechanics are actually advantageous.

 

But in the most recent patch... I do get the feeling that the balance team forgot about the opportunity cost of a third core traitline.

 

> @"Luthan.5236" said:

> Edit: And I bet I'm seriously gonna miss my rifle. Playe engi - even though back then pistol and condition damage was the thing to go for - mainly with rifle. And played mainly engineer in this game. I'd prefer to stay with the rifle.

 

Nothing saying you have to change. Plenty of people play elite specs with core weapons.

[Genesis.7864]

> @"Luthan.5236" said:

> Imo - but I haven't bought any expansions yet and still playing core - the elite specs should be designed in a way that it is still a decision between them or using the 3rd slot for a 3rd core specialization. I mean elite basically gives you a new weapon - forcing you to play with this weapon. And it probably would feel weird to trait for another weapon (with the other 2 specs) ... leaving all the other weapon options less relevant. I'm already looking for good hammers for when I buy HoT and play my engineer as scrapper then.

>

> But the fun of the core ... shouldn't be taken away. Would mean less options than without the elite. And additional/new stuff should enhance the game. Not make it boring by having less options if the new stuff is so powerful that the only viable option is to play with elite.

>

> I guess it isn't an option to change the system so you get the weapons + core mechanis as a different slot option while keeping the other traits separate from it?

> I. e: Having access to hammer and other scrapper skills (or holosmith - for engineer. And being abel to choose from this as a 4th thing. But for the main trait lines instead of the traits/spec having one of the core ones. (And even the option to use rifle + core trait line while using scrapper skills.)

>

> Afaik (haven't tried since I still play without expansion) you are forced to equip the elite spec in 3rd slot to even get access to all the skills that come with this new "sub class"? So it is basically forcing people to equip one. And then to use lots of (at least 1 or 2) skills from it - otherwise the traits that come with it would be wasted. Less diversity in builds I guess.

>

> Edit: And I bet I'm seriously gonna miss my rifle. Playe engi - even though back then pistol and condition damage was the thing to go for - mainly with rifle. And played mainly engineer in this game. I'd prefer to stay with the rifle.

 

You can still play with core weapons.. My chrono used Sword/Sword and Sword/Focus or Greatsword. Depending on the circumstance of gamemode.

My Herald never touched Shield which is its elite spec weapon too, and mostly stuck with Sword/Sword and Staff.

 

Elite specs only offer the extra weapon, it isn't required to use it. Most people pick the elite and trade-off a core traitline for it in order to snatch up a specific mechanic like an extra dodge, or tomes, or element merging or element overcharging, etc.

 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

My take on which core classes need power bumps and which E-Specs need tradeoffs

 

Core Necro:

Still needs buffing. Shroud skills still need buffing. Death Magic line needs a rework. Staff and MH dagger need a rework

 

Scourge:

Scourge needs some toning down. Either condi stacks need reduction, or they need a lazy stat hit that Anet seems to like the idea of. As it is now there is WAY too much condi. Another take would be for them to no longer manifest the shade affects at their location, perhaps fix the field rather than have it move with them.

 

Core Ranger:

I think core needs some buff love. Mainly I'd like to see the condi on SB be not so dependent on flanking.

 

Core Engi:

Insert Charr Engi with a cardboard sign saying "Anything Helps"

 

Dragon Hunter:

This E-Spec actually needs some more love than they just gave it.

 

Firebrand:

FB is too powerful. They need more of a tradeoff as a result. I've seen people mention -300 Vit, but that would be too much on a low base HP class. -300 toughness on Imbued Haste instead of +250 and increase the condi damage and healing power to +300 would be sufficient I think.

 

I'm not sure about the other classes, but I think it is resealable that if the E-Spec grants increased stats like Berserker or Firebrand, that there should be a decrease as well to one of the stats to balance it out. I'd be in favor of Ranger E-specs getting a stat swap to justify unnerfing Druid pets.

[Skotlex.7580]

On one side, I do approve of having elites have tradeoffs to make over core traits: by not having elite specs be always better, this could increase gameplay variability by 50% at least (as now the last traitline won't always

be better as an elite).

 

Currently Anet seems to be aiming at changing the class mechanics (those tied to the F-keys), so that one gains something and loses something in return, that seems sound, though their implementation so far could use improvements. For instance, the chronomancer tradeoff highlights how useless the class mechanic is in large zerg settings, Anet should eventually address this (either give clones -95% damage when not targeted, or have some kind of trait that gives clones blur for some time after spawning), but until then it'll be unviable for WvW outside roaming.

 

Another position they can use is to boost core traitlines enough that a full core build will offer enough performance to become competitive with the elite spec. This is harder to accomplish because: boosting any trait line could simple improve the elite specs that use it, they'd have to buff the synergy between core lines so that three of them work really well together, and picking an elite would sacrifice such synergy. There's another problem with trait lines: historically, before we had the specialization mechanic, trait lines were tied to stats, and generally speaking we had one for damage, one for condition damage, one focused on criticals, one for defense, one for healing, one to enhance the profession mechanic. Thus, if one wanted to maximize DPS, one would have two traitlines to fulfill that without any variability. However, elite specs are traitlines that include defense / damage options, which would allow an elite build to further specialize into damage / tanking beyond what a core trait build could. Anet seems to already have started working on making trait lines more diverse (look at the retribution traitline rework for Revenant, which was previously a purely defensive line, now has damage dealing options), so as the trait lines become more diverse on their roles, they'll have better competition against elite specs. Of course, these changes do come at the price of balance as it takes time to properly tone-up/down the changing meta.

 

TL:DR version:

Tradeoffs in class mechanics coupled with better synergy between core traitlines as well as making each traitline more versatile on its role will be good for the game's longterm health as it adds build diversity.