Ohoni.6057 Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 > @Graeaw.6329 said: > > @Ohoni.6057 said: > > > @Graeaw.6329 said: > > > Please leave open world hurr durr I haz pullen 6 mobs me no problem killing arguments outside this discussion.... > > > > Ok, so long as you leave arguments about raid comps and balance against other classes out of the discussion. > > So what do you compare our class against? Mordrem Snipers? I think we still lose lol. Well, then maybe it's silly of either of us to try and argue about which gameplay mode "really matters?" I mean, it's obviously open world PvE since the majority of players prefer that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graeaw.6329 Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 > @Ohoni.6057 said: > > @Graeaw.6329 said: > > > @Ohoni.6057 said: > > > > @Graeaw.6329 said: > > > > Please leave open world hurr durr I haz pullen 6 mobs me no problem killing arguments outside this discussion.... > > > > > > Ok, so long as you leave arguments about raid comps and balance against other classes out of the discussion. > > > > So what do you compare our class against? Mordrem Snipers? I think we still lose lol. > > Well, then maybe it's silly of either of us to try and argue about which gameplay mode "really matters?" > > I mean, it's obviously open world PvE since the majority of players prefer that. The thing is, if you balance around open world, endgame pve will have huge imbalances. But if you tone around end game pve a bit more, you won't notice that much of a difference in open world play. Just for the sake of putting it in a different perspective: Blizzard doesn't balance it's pve based on how/how fast do you kill the required mobs of a world quest either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saraneth.6021 Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > Check qT's numbers... Bringing up qtfy? They on their DE build use D/D. They even said themselves on their youtube video (in the comments) that rifle just is not good enough. Not to mention on the build, **even** with D/D, they say not to use it because it falls behind Daredevil too much. So trying to use them to justify DE and especially DE rifle is quite stupid, seeing as they said it is bad and don't even use it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 > @Graeaw.6329 said: >The thing is, if you balance around open world, endgame pve will have huge imbalances. You balance around where the players are at. If balancing around open world would cause imbalance in instanced content, then you make the instanced content such that it's in balance with where the players are at. Or split the skills, whatever. The point is, open world QoL should be subject to _nothing._ >Just for the sake of putting it in a different perspective: Blizzard doesn't balance it's pve based on how/how fast do you kill the required mobs of a world quest either. Blizzard makes a very different game, and more power to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 Before I begin, let me preface this with a few tests. We know that qT does their test in peak realistic conditions, so I decided to do a few tests with absolutely no boons, buffs, or outside support whatsoever. Here is what I got: Daredevil: 9495 DPS Deadeye: 9724 DPS Keep in mind that this is a gigantic single bag of health. It doesn't die in a single rotation like overworld enemies do, so the instant mark recharge never came into play. Also, overworld mobs aren't stationary, so there is no way to guarantee damage from Bound and Weakening Charge. > @Ohoni.6057 said: > That's why you don't vault, you blind them all and use auto-attack. If you do feel like Vaulting, you spam it enough times to get the job done, and then dodge back out of melee range when you're done. ABD, Always Be Dodging. Then you'll do terrible damage. I'm well aware of the staff 4 + auto tactic. It is great for killing enemies really slowly but safely. > @Ohoni.6057 said: > I don't agree with your conclusions. Then please, for the life of me, tell me how Daredevil has better group buffs than the Deadeye. In fact, explain everything. You just make claims, you don't support them with either logic or evidence. > @Ohoni.6057 said: > I meant the same with whatever buffs they bring to the table. A DE might be able to stack more buffs, but a DD is just as good with fewer buffs. And mounts are nice, but you can't mount up while in combat, so being able to use inherent mobility to avoid damage is still valuable. Sometimes you want to hop, but not TO an enemy. No, DD is not. If they both have max buffs, they're the same. Therefore, DD can't be better with fewer buffs. That aside, running away from a fight is something any class can do. You don't need a special dodge to move away from an attack. Just de-target then heartseeker. > @Ohoni.6057 said: > But the reality is that the _result_ of the two classes is that the DD ends up with equal or better damage in practical situations, even if there are less little orange squares on his toolbar as he does so. The DD doesn't end up with equal or better damage in practical situations. It ends up with with less damage. > @Ohoni.6057 said: > But I'm not talking about fractals or raids, I'm talking about PvE, and I don't want anyone to choose me, **I** want to choose me. Besides, DEs still can't pump out enough support to make them competitors in a supporting role, and even if they did, that's a fine _optional_ build, but you should be able to trait away from that option and into a more solo-friendly one. I'm talking about everything. Solo, random groups on the map, random pugs, premades. That is all of PVE. I've personally had to run the support spec before in a dungeon, and the DE is capable of keeping the team might capped in an engagement. That was only partial support, too. With a full support build the DE maintains permanent fury, permanent vigor, permanent swiftness, capped might, and permanent blind on all enemies. Best part is, you don't have to be in a dungeon to do this. People generally wander around the overworld, too, so if you see one you can keep them buffed out. > @Ohoni.6057 said: > Have you tried the Daredevil's auto-attack? Not only does it do more damage, but it hits three mobs while doing so. Tried it. It isn't better. In a prolonged engagement, while solo, the vulnerability stacking can cause the staff auto to do slightly more damage than the dagger auto. But the dagger wins out if the enemy is already vulnerability capped, or if the enemy doesn't live long enough to hit the vulnerability threshold. So dagger wins against anything that isn't an elite mob or higher, but also a champion is likely to have players capping vulnerability anyway, so it wins there, too. Besides, in the vast majority of situations, 2 mobs is enough. > @Ohoni.6057 said: > In actual practice, that does not seem to be the case. Just tried it. In actual practice, it is the case. Period. > @Ohoni.6057 said: > Why do you keep asserting things that numerous people are telling you run completely contrary to their experiences with the spec? Is your client accessing a different version of the game than the rest of us? Oh please. You're the one who had a problem with my perspective. You started this. As for the other people here, most likely they're just playing the specialization wrong. Their arguments rely on soft evidence (i.e. how it "feels") that is contrary to what the numbers show. Their complaints are frequently unfounded, grossly exaggerated, vague to the point of meaninglessness, or outright incorrect. I am more than welcome to hear criticism of the Deadeye, but if those criticisms are asserting that bikes suck because your arms get too tired from pushing the pedals, then there is a problem with their perspective. Hell, the only reason why you keep posting is because I've demonstrated that you're wrong in half a dozen ways and you keep trying to weasel out of it. -------------------------------------------------------------- > @Saraneth.6021 said: > Bringing up qtfy? They on their DE build use D/D. They even said themselves on their youtube video (in the comments) that rifle just is not good enough. Not to mention on the build, **even** with D/D, they say not to use it because it falls behind Daredevil too much. > > So trying to use them to justify DE and especially DE rifle is quite stupid, seeing as they said it is bad and don't even use it! qT said in their reddit thread that you can use any specialization you want. I cannot find the comment where they say not to use the Deadeye. Regardless, the Rifle is a ranged weapon, and as such it will have lower overall average DPS than a melee weapon. As I said before, if you're kneeling in a boss's face, you aren't doing it right. That's the equivalent of bearbowing. You use a ranged weapon in circumstances that demand a ranged weapon. As a ranged weapon, it is pretty good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saraneth.6021 Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > @Saraneth.6021 said: > > Bringing up qtfy? They on their DE build use D/D. They even said themselves on their youtube video (in the comments) that rifle just is not good enough. Not to mention on the build, **even** with D/D, they say not to use it because it falls behind Daredevil too much. > > > > So trying to use them to justify DE and especially DE rifle is quite stupid, seeing as they said it is bad and don't even use it! > > qT said in their reddit thread that you can use any specialization you want. I cannot find the comment where they say not to use the Deadeye. My bad, I kind of misquoted. Anyway you can see it right on the build page at: https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/thief/power-deadeye/ **"2. Weaknesses Very low DPS"** also **"These changes boosted Power Deadeye’s DPS but not enough to compete for a DPS spot."** Also on the youtube video for the build here: Jesper Locher commented **"Melee Deadeye, okay."** qT replied **"Rifle is so bad FeelsBadMan."** Road Kamelote commented **"So sad... the dps is very low compared to other elite spec."** qT replied **"Yep deadeye for pve is very very bad."** So pretty much saying it's bad and don't use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: >Keep in mind that this is a gigantic single bag of health. It doesn't die in a single rotation like overworld enemies do, so the instant mark recharge never came into play. Also, overworld mobs aren't stationary, so there is no way to guarantee damage from Bound and Weakening Charge. Ok, so 3% lower damage in your testing, you're right, MASSIVE difference. One thing I would point out though is that if you're going for scientific results, you would need to average multiple tests across multiple enemy types. For what it's worth. >Then you'll do terrible damage. I'm well aware of the staff 4 + auto tactic. It is great for killing enemies really slowly but safely. There are always trade-offs. DE has to make them too, just with fewer options. It's important to keep in mind more than just raw DPS under ideal circumstances, you deal 0 DPS on your face. >Then please, for the life of me, tell me how Daredevil has better group buffs than the Deadeye. I never would, it doesn't, but my point is, that's not a factor that is of any value, especially not to me. I'm talking about open world PvE performance, not group benefit, and from what I understand, the DE is better at support than the DD, but not good enough at it to actually make them a priority in team comp so who cares? >You don't need a special dodge to move away from an attack. Just de-target then heartseeker. That's not as fast or effective as Vault or Dash. >The DD doesn't end up with equal or better damage in practical situations. It ends up with with less damage. 3%, according to your testing, but that doesn't make up for the lack of mobility. The DE should do a TON better DPS for all it lacks elsewhere. A player going from Daredevil to DE should not be thinking "maybe this is doing a little faster damage," he should be thinking "oh my god, these guys are MELTING!" >I'm talking about everything. Solo, random groups on the map, random pugs, premades. That is all of PVE. I've personally had to run the support spec before in a dungeon, and the DE is capable of keeping the team might capped in an engagement. That was only partial support, too. With a full support build the DE maintains permanent fury, permanent vigor, permanent swiftness, capped might, and permanent blind on all enemies. Best part is, you don't have to be in a dungeon to do this. People generally wander around the overworld, too, so if you see one you can keep them buffed out. Could not care less. If I can pump out some bonus boons while doing my thing? Great, but if I am even slightly less effective solo in exchange for group support potential, that is of zero interest to me. Again, if the class has these things as an _option,_ that's fine, and players who want that can slot it, but that can't be the sole offset the spec has to offer, it can't be "almost as good as the Daredevil, and also offers more team support," it has to be "balanced against the Daredevil without any team support, and also offers team support if you spec that way." >Their arguments rely on soft evidence (i.e. how it "feels") that is contrary to what the numbers show. Why is the soft evidence not valid? This is a game, not a science experiment. Hard data is one thing, but if a class is "perfectly balanced" according to "hard data," yet still "feels wrong" according to "soft evidence," then there is still a problem there, because how it feels is FAR more important to most players than knowing that the data supports that they _should_ be having fun. It's tricky to balance around "soft evidence," but vital to do so. You don't necessarily have to make it stronger, but you do need to make it "feel" stronger somehow. > As I said before, if you're kneeling in a boss's face, you aren't doing it right. That's the equivalent of bearbowing. You use a ranged weapon in circumstances that demand a ranged weapon. As a ranged weapon, it is pretty good. As a ranged weapon, it's not bad. As a ranged weapon with some rather significant penalties attached, it's not good enough. Basically Kneel rifle is mostly balanced as a mobile weapon. It needs to be better to be worth being an immobile weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 > @Saraneth.6021 said: > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > > @Saraneth.6021 said: > > > Bringing up qtfy? They on their DE build use D/D. They even said themselves on their youtube video (in the comments) that rifle just is not good enough. Not to mention on the build, **even** with D/D, they say not to use it because it falls behind Daredevil too much. > > > > > > So trying to use them to justify DE and especially DE rifle is quite stupid, seeing as they said it is bad and don't even use it! > > > > qT said in their reddit thread that you can use any specialization you want. I cannot find the comment where they say not to use the Deadeye. > > My bad, I kind of misquoted. Anyway you can see it right on the build page at: https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/thief/power-deadeye/ > **"2. Weaknesses > Very low DPS"** > also > **"These changes boosted Power Deadeye’s DPS but not enough to compete for a DPS spot."** > > > > Also on the youtube video for the build here: > > > > Jesper Locher commented **"Melee Deadeye, okay."** qT replied **"Rifle is so bad FeelsBadMan."** > > Road Kamelote commented **"So sad... the dps is very low compared to other elite spec."** qT replied **"Yep deadeye for pve is very very bad."** > > So pretty much saying it's bad and don't use it. > So then they didn't say it falls behind Daredevil. I mentioned this earlier: There's two ways to look at the new elite specs. From the perspective of balance, and the perspective of power creep. From a balance perspective, Deadeye is fine. It is tuned to be competitive to Daredevil while being different in nature. Compared to a lot of the old specs it is perfectly fine. If you put Deadeye next to Herald, Scrapper, Power Engi, old school power PS Warrior, anything Mesmer, Reaper, base condi Revenant, anything Ranger, then the Deadeye would stand tall as a respected DPS class. It is good if you judge it from two months ago. But, Path of Fire was far to liberal with other classes. From the perspective of power creep, the Deadeye falls behind. After the expansion was released, five 38k DPS specs came out of nowhere, rendering everything before them meaningless. This includes all previous specializations. No more Scrappers, Heralds, Reapers, Dragonhunters, or core specs. Heck, Holosmith, Spellbreaker, and DPS Berserker also fall by the wayside. These new builds do so much damage that they stomp through all content as if it were child's play. Shattered Observatory challenge mode is a joke now. This puts the Deadeye in an odd place, as it was balanced against a spec rendered obsolete by other classes who were not so well designed. Anet has said that they plan to resolve this massive imbalance by bringing down the infamous 5 (Weaver, Firebrand, Soul Beast, Scourge, Renegade) while also bringing up the lower classes and specializations. If Anet is successful, expect to see the 38k quintet brought down to around 34k while everything else is brought up to that mark. If Anet is unsuccessful, then expect to see unrelenting shenanigans for years to come. For now, there's little else to do other than wait for the upcoming balance patch and bugfixes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: >I mentioned this earlier: There's two ways to look at the new elite specs. From the perspective of balance, and the perspective of power creep. From a balance perspective, Deadeye is fine. It is tuned to be competitive to Daredevil while being different in nature. Compared to a lot of the old specs it is perfectly fine. If you put Deadeye next to Herald, Scrapper, Power Engi, old school power PS Warrior, anything Mesmer, Reaper, base condi Revenant, anything Ranger, then the Deadeye would stand tall as a respected DPS class. It is good if you judge it from two months ago. But again, if Deadeye is merely "mostly even" with Daredevil in terms of damage, then it is far far worse in total value, since damage potential is basically all it has going for it. For Deadeye to be viable, it needs to either pick up a lot more mobility options, OR completely outshine Daredevil in terms of damage output, like the difference between PVT and Zerker gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 > @Ohoni.6057 said: > Ok, so 3% lower damage in your testing, you're right, MASSIVE difference. One thing I would point out though is that if you're going for scientific results, you would need to average multiple tests across multiple enemy types. For what it's worth. Considering it was an environment specifically weighted against the practical use of the Deadeye and for the use of the Daredevil, the fact that it turned out that way shows how much of an advantage DE has in the overworld. Just admit that you were wrong about the damage. > @Ohoni.6057 said: > There are always trade-offs. DE has to make them too, just with fewer options. It's important to keep in mind more than just raw DPS under ideal circumstances, you deal 0 DPS on your face. The Deadeye has no problem surviving in the overworld. > @Ohoni.6057 said: > I never would, it doesn't, but my point is, that's not a factor that is of any value, especially not to me. I'm talking about open world PvE performance, not group benefit, and from what I understand, the DE is better at support than the DD, but not good enough at it to actually make them a priority in team comp so who cares? This is BS. You said that the Deadeye has no benefits, then I demonstrated in countless ways that it does, and you're refusing to admit that range, self buffing, and group buffing matter. Every time I show you're wrong you move the goalpost. Just admit that you were wrong about the Deadeye having no benefits. > @Ohoni.6057 said: > That's not as fast or effective as Vault or Dash. You're moving the goalpost again. Stop being so stubborn and just admit that you were wrong about the Deadeye's mobility. Besides, if you use Dash, take at least 10% off of your DPS. > @Ohoni.6057 said: > 3%, according to your testing, but that doesn't make up for the lack of mobility. The DE should do a TON better DPS for all it lacks elsewhere. A player going from Daredevil to DE should not be thinking "maybe this is doing a little faster damage," he should be thinking "oh my god, these guys are MELTING!" You're changing the subject. Just admit that you were wrong about the Daredevil having better damage in PVE. You're purposefully ignoring the Mark + Be Quick or Be Killed interaction. > @Ohoni.6057 said: > Could not care less. If I can pump out some bonus boons while doing my thing? Great, but if I am even slightly less effective solo in exchange for group support potential, that is of zero interest to me. Again, if the class has these things as an _option,_ that's fine, and players who want that can slot it, but that can't be the sole offset the spec has to offer, it can't be "almost as good as the Daredevil, and also offers more team support," it has to be "balanced against the Daredevil without any team support, and also offers team support if you spec that way." You're moving the goalpost again. The subject has changed form "Deadeye does nothing" to "Buffs don't matter because the Daredevil is better without them" to "Group buffs are not something I personally care about". Then you have invented some false notion that the Deadeye doesn't haven't a personal DPS spec, which it clearly does. Whether or not you're a special little snowflake has no bearing on what the Deadeye is actually capable of. > @Ohoni.6057 said: > Why is the soft evidence not valid? Because it is conditional on things that aren't true. People aren't fully rational. They see things that don't exist, are blind to things that do exist, cannot grasp entire concepts, and use a series of faulty reasoning to arrive at terrible conclusions. In order for any claim to be meaningful, it must be grounded in reality. If the dev's see everyone complaining that the Deadeye is immobile, they'll immediately think "The deadeye still has more movement skills than most classes", then immediately dismiss the complaint as illogical. > @Ohoni.6057 said: > As a ranged weapon, it's not bad. As a ranged weapon with some rather significant penalties attached, it's not good enough. Basically Kneel rifle is mostly balanced as a mobile weapon. It needs to be better to be worth being an immobile weapon. I've done some tests in the past, and kneeling rifle still outdamages P/P, and the Renegade Shortbow. Came up to 25k DPS, which is about the same that I can get with power Herald in the same conditions. I imagine other people would be able to get higher, with a better rig and more efficient skill usage. But for the sake of argument lets say it does 26k DPS and I was near the mark. That puts it in the same tier as core condi mesmer, power herald, power scrapper, power PS Warrior, and hammer Dragonhunter. If you compare it to old specs again, the Rifle delivers on its promises to be a ranged weapon with melee weapon damage. > @Ohoni.6057 said: > But again, if Deadeye is merely "mostly even" with Daredevil in terms of damage, then it is far far worse in total value, since damage potential is basically all it has going for it. For Deadeye to be viable, it needs to either pick up a lot more mobility options, OR completely outshine Daredevil in terms of damage output, like the difference between PVT and Zerker gear. There's a point where stupidity becomes a sin. I have been over the advantages have a dozen times. You're in denial. It is silly to make the Deadeye more mobile than the Daredevil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sol VIII.6812 Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 > @Alatar.7364 said: > I think in that case we can assume the Ranged dmg to be an advantage over Melee Dmg, cause you don't have to reach your target. In such case it would be only fair for Ranged dmg to be lower than Melee as compensation. But Rifles aren't just a ranged weapon, but projectile based too (well duh), which is in all game modes bad, because projectiles can be blocked and deflected (and intercepted by other bodies). This alone is the downside to their range, so that the damage due to the lack of cleaving (I don't count the piercing effect of K2) and AoE should be higher than the staff of DD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: >Considering it was an environment specifically weighted against the practical use of the Deadeye and for the use of the Daredevil, the fact that it turned out that way shows how much of an advantage DE has in the overworld. Just admit that you were wrong about the damage. I don't think that your evidence, even taken at fact value, *does* indicate that I was wrong. Perhaps you misunderstood my position. >The Deadeye has no problem surviving in the overworld. That's highly subjective. Can you at least agree that if a given player is in a situation where he is having difficulty staying alive with a Daredevil, then he will likely have *more* trouble staying alive with a Deadeye? >This is BS. You said that the Deadeye has no benefits, then I demonstrated in countless ways that it does, and you're refusing to admit that range, self buffing, and group buffing matter. Every time I show you're wrong you move the goalpost. Just admit that you were wrong about the Deadeye having no benefits. Again, "benefits" are relative. Support only matters if you're playing the modes in which support actually matters. Self-buffing only matters if the buffs provided give you a significant advantage over where the other spec would be without those buffs, and I see no evidence of that. And range is nice, but since you're stationary while employing it, you don't get to make much use of it for long, and everyone seems to agree that if you _are_ using that added range, it comes at the expense of damage. >You're moving the goalpost again. Stop being so stubborn and just admit that you were wrong about the Deadeye's mobility. Besides, if you use Dash, take at least 10% off of your DPS. You seem more invested in me "admitting I'm wrong" about points you assumed I was making, than you are about making this class be as good as it could be. I'm sorry if I was making the points I was making, rather than the points you wanted me to be making. >You're changing the subject. Just admit that you were wrong about the Daredevil having better damage in PVE. You're purposefully ignoring the Mark + Be Quick or Be Killed interaction. Again, you're big on data, if I'm wrong, show the data. Show a Daredevil doing everything he can to do damage, and a Deadeye doing everything he can to deal damage, and the Deadeye getting a _significant_ advantage in DPS, one worth making up for all he loses by not being a Daredevil. >You're moving the goalpost again. The subject has changed form "Deadeye does nothing" to "Buffs don't matter because the Daredevil is better without them" to "Group buffs are not something I personally care about". My goalposts have been the same from the start. If you believe they're moving, then you merely didn't understand them. I have NEVER placed any value in the Deadeye's support capabilities, and never will. >Because it is conditional on things that aren't true. People aren't fully rational. They see things that don't exist, are blind to things that do exist, cannot grasp entire concepts, and use a series of faulty reasoning to arrive at terrible conclusions. And yet, this is a game, perception is ALL that matters. ANet has to balance around the perception, not the reality. > If the dev's see everyone complaining that the Deadeye is immobile, they'll immediately think "The deadeye still has more movement skills than most classes", then immediately dismiss the complaint as illogical. And that's the problem, that would be a very irrational position for them to take. If the players are complaining that the Deadeye is immobile, then there is clearly a reason for that, and the devs need to do something to correct it. > I imagine other people would be able to get higher, with a better rig and more efficient skill usage. But for the sake of argument lets say it does 26k DPS and I was near the mark. That puts it in the same tier as core condi mesmer, power herald, power scrapper, power PS Warrior, and hammer Dragonhunter. And that wouldn't be remotely good enough, because those classes can do that DPS without kneeling. _Standing_ rifle needs to be at least as good as those classes, kneeling rifle needs to be better still, to compensate for the penalties involved. >There's a point where stupidity becomes a sin. I have been over the advantages have a dozen times. You're in denial. It is silly to make the Deadeye more mobile than the Daredevil. Not more mobile than the Daredevil, just more mobile than the Deadeye. Maybe more mobile than core Thief. No kneeling, maybe something more. They nerfed core Thief's mobility to make the Daredevil shine brighter, really any Thief spec should offer at least that much mobility back, OR offset it by being way stronger. Right now, the Deadeye is not stronger enough to make up for the lack of mobility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 > @Ohoni.6057 said: > I don't think that your evidence, even taken at fact value, *does* indicate that I was wrong. Perhaps you misunderstood my position. "Which is balanced out by having lower auto-attack damage, so again, net neutral." -- You, this thread. "Or just keep using auto-attack to outdamage a Deadeye." -- You, this thread. > @Ohoni.6057 said: > That's highly subjective. Can you at least agree that if a given player is in a situation where he is having difficulty staying alive with a Daredevil, then he will likely have *more* trouble staying alive with a Deadeye? It is not subjective. And no, dying in Daredevil doesn't mean dying in Deadeye. I have encountered many fights where playing the Deadeye gave me more survival than the Daredevil, for two particular reasons. First, the Deadeye usually maintains a smoke field. Second, if a fight is too dangerous I just squat on rifle and kill enemies from 1500 range. The Daredevil doesn't have that range option, so even if it has more dodges it'll die when those run out. > @Ohoni.6057 said: > Again, "benefits" are relative. They aren't relative. Benefits are objective. Self buffing, group buffing, and 1500 attack range are benefits, available to the Deadeye, and not the Daredevil. These are all facts. They don't go away just because you don't care about them. Facts don't care about your feelings. > @Ohoni.6057 said: > You seem more invested in me "admitting I'm wrong" about points you assumed I was making, than you are about making this class be as good as it could be. I'm sorry if I was making the points I was making, rather than the points you wanted me to be making. You're distracting from the point. You know this isn't true. > @Ohoni.6057 said: > Again, you're big on data, if I'm wrong, show the data. Show a Daredevil doing everything he can to do damage, and a Deadeye doing everything he can to deal damage, and the Deadeye getting a _significant_ advantage in DPS, one worth making up for all he loses by not being a Daredevil. I already showed you the data. You're moving the goalpost again. You've taken this from the Deadeye doing less damage, to the Deadeye somehow indebted to do significantly more damage (undefined) at 1500 range, and am demanding I show you more data in a manner that the training golem cannot simulate. All other benefits don't count because you don't feel like the should count. You have already admitted several times that facts don't matter to you, so what good is it to pursue this any further? If I show you a video, you'll just baselessly claim that Daredevil does it better and dump the burden of proof on other people. > @Ohoni.6057 said: > My goalposts have been the same from the start. If you believe they're moving, then you merely didn't understand them. I have NEVER placed any value in the Deadeye's support capabilities, and never will. They really haven't. And if you neglect the support and buffing capabilities of the spec, then your feedback is instantly rendered meaningless. You're ignoring one of the biggest advantages the DE has while claiming that you play exclusively in a game mode where that advantage matters the most. You're a walking contradiction. > @Ohoni.6057 said: > And yet, this is a game, perception is ALL that matters. ANet has to balance around the perception, not the reality. Nope. Reality matters. Anet has only ever balanced around reality. > @Ohoni.6057 said: > And that's the problem, that would be a very irrational position for them to take. If the players are complaining that the Deadeye is immobile, then there is clearly a reason for that, and the devs need to do something to correct it. Disregarding insanity is not irrational. If the people complain the Deadeye is immobile, it just means they need to learn the spec. Otherwise they'll overpower the spec and create even more class balance issues. > @Ohoni.6057 said: > And that wouldn't be remotely good enough, because those classes can do that DPS without kneeling. _Standing_ rifle needs to be at least as good as those classes, kneeling rifle needs to be better still, to compensate for the penalties involved. 1500 range. The rifle isn't meant to render all of those classes obsolete. Don't try to make it so. > @Ohoni.6057 said: > Not more mobile than the Daredevil, just more mobile than the Deadeye. Maybe more mobile than core Thief. No kneeling, maybe something more. They nerfed core Thief's mobility to make the Daredevil shine brighter, really any Thief spec should offer at least that much mobility back, OR offset it by being way stronger. Right now, the Deadeye is not stronger enough to make up for the lack of mobility. The Deadeye has all the mobility of the core thief, plus Shadow Flare. This discussion is over. Proof is of no value to someone who doesn't care about facts. You can't have a productive conversation built on fictional bricks. At this point, you've already dug yourself into a hole where anything you say doesn't matter. You're wrong not as a matter of circumstance, but as a way of life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: >It is not subjective. And no, dying in Daredevil doesn't mean dying in Deadeye. I have encountered many fights where playing the Deadeye gave me more survival than the Daredevil, for two particular reasons. First, the Deadeye usually maintains a smoke field. Second, if a fight is too dangerous I just squat on rifle and kill enemies from 1500 range. The Daredevil doesn't have that range option, so even if it has more dodges it'll die when those run out. What options do the Deadeye have to maintaining Smoke Fields that the Daredevil does not? As for range, that assumes that you can 1. disengage and gain that much distance from the enemy, 2. that they do not follow you, and 3. that they have no ranged attacks of their own to hit you from 1500 range (which many enemies seem to have these days). A well played DD won't run out of dodges, by alternativing between actual dodges and Vaults, they can keep evading at least as long as a DE can stay any further than 600 range from his enemies. >> @Ohoni.6057 said: Again, "benefits" are relative. >They aren't relative. Benefits are objective. Self buffing, group buffing, and 1500 attack range are benefits, available to the Deadeye, and not the Daredevil. These are all facts. They don't go away just because you don't care about them. Facts don't care about your feelings. Sorry, perhaps I was unclear, the VALUE of any benefit is relative. If I give you $5, then that's $5, and it carries a certain amount of benefit, but if you're somewhere that has does not accept USD, then it has no practical value. The traits that a DE have are only beneficial to a given player if he can and wants to employ them. If it can do things that he has no use for, then those are not of any value to him. Feelings don't care about your facts. >I already showed you the data. The only data you showed was that in your testing, the Deadeye was doing 3% more damage than the Daredevil. That's statistically insignificant. For the Deadeye to be viable in its current implementation, it would need to be dealing WAY more damage than that. >They really haven't. And if you neglect the support and buffing capabilities of the spec, then your feedback is instantly rendered meaningless. You're ignoring one of the biggest advantages the DE has while claiming that you play exclusively in a game mode where that advantage matters the most. You're a walking contradiction. Ok, so explain it to me then, what use is the DE's ability to buff others, in a game mode in which I don't expect anyone else to be around? I'm clearly not seeing what you're seeing here. >Nope. Reality matters. Anet has only ever balanced around reality. If true, that may explain why they get it wrong so often. This is a game, the play's the thing. The way people FEEL about a class is far more important than the hard science technical merits of the class. ANet need to adjust the class's actual capabilities to account for how players will percieve it. It's like ice cream. Ice cream is made with considerably more sugar than one would expect of something that tastes like ice cream, because the cold of it deadens the tastebuds. Ice cream produced using an amount of sugar equivalent to how it eventually tastes would end up tasting very dull. You can argue "but factually it has plenty of sugar!" all day, but if the perception is that it's not sweet enough, then it's not sweet enough. >Disregarding insanity is not irrational. If the people complain the Deadeye is immobile, it just means they need to learn the spec. Otherwise they'll overpower the spec and create even more class balance issues. The trick, ideally, is to figure out ways to make the spec more appealing, to reduce the downsides, in a way that don't overly enhance the best case scenario. Make changes that bring the bottom to median performance higher without raising the peak. >The Deadeye has all the mobility of the core thief, plus Shadow Flare. But to make the most of its unique weapon, it has to give itself Immobilize. DD, on the other hand, picks up Vault. And again, core Thief is already lacking in mobility due to the pre-HoT nerfs. The Deadeye needs to be *more* mobile than core Thief, because it's not competing with core Thief, it's competing with Daredevil. >This discussion is over. Proof is of no value to someone who doesn't care about facts. You can't have a productive conversation built on fictional bricks. At this point, you've already dug yourself into a hole where anything you say doesn't matter. You're wrong not as a matter of circumstance, but as a way of life. Ok, just so long as you understand that within the context of a game, "fictional bricks" are ALL that matter. It's impossible to "prove" anyone wrong, because "proof" doesn't matter. All you can do is _convince_ the other person to see things differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artemis Thuras.8795 Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > You must be doing something wrong. I am one of the hardest hitting players in group events and fractals. And I'm not even in Zerks. That isn't as impressive as you seem to think it is.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saraneth.6021 Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > @Ohoni.6057 said: > > Lol, no. And even if the Deadeye _is_ comparable to Daredevil in terms of damage, which I doubt, the Daredevil has a massive edge in mobility, so anything DE can do, DD can do better. If Deadeye is going to lack the Daredevil's mobility, then it needs to not just match the DD in terms of damage, it needs to be _much_ higher. And not just against target golems, I'm talking against real enemies that are constantly moving, attacking, etc. > > Check qT's numbers. Power Daredevil is 31.9k. Power Deadeye is 31.1k. That's basically the same damage. > > As far as mobility goes, heartseeker and mounts. For most of my fights I just use shadow shot to jump from enemy to enemy, so I have absolutely no problem getting around while in combat. > > As far as unique things go, the Deadeye has several things the daredevil doesn't. First, it is excellent at self buffing. Solo you'll regularly hit 25 might stacks, and it has massive quickness uptime. The steal skills also give things like resistance and protection. Second, the 1500 range on rifle cannot be ignored, since it gives the Deadeye the ability to kill many threats without putting itself in danger. Third, it has excellent soft and hard control. Nearly all of the Deadeye's utilities have CC of some kind, and the rifle can chain a piercing immobilize. Shadow Flare is an extremely high damaging AoE skill. > > I don't know how it is you guys are having problems playing a spec that spams blind fields, has near permanent quickness, and can do respectable damage through auto attacks. I can kill anything less than a silver mob before it even reaches me. On the Daredevil I have to blow my entire initiative bar to do what the Deadeye can do just by marking and auto attacking. > > > @Rhomulos.2089 said: > > > > Don't forget, DD also cleaves, meaning its 'comparable' damage skyrockets in fights wanting cleave. > > Deadeye cleaves >.> > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > @Saraneth.6021 said: > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > > > @Saraneth.6021 said: > > > > Bringing up qtfy? They on their DE build use D/D. They even said themselves on their youtube video (in the comments) that rifle just is not good enough. Not to mention on the build, **even** with D/D, they say not to use it because it falls behind Daredevil too much. > > > > > > > > So trying to use them to justify DE and especially DE rifle is quite stupid, seeing as they said it is bad and don't even use it! > > > > > > qT said in their reddit thread that you can use any specialization you want. I cannot find the comment where they say not to use the Deadeye. > > > > My bad, I kind of misquoted. Anyway you can see it right on the build page at: https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/thief/power-deadeye/ > > **"2. Weaknesses > > Very low DPS"** > > also > > **"These changes boosted Power Deadeye’s DPS but not enough to compete for a DPS spot."** > > > > > > > > Also on the youtube video for the build here: > > > > > > > > Jesper Locher commented **"Melee Deadeye, okay."** qT replied **"Rifle is so bad FeelsBadMan."** > > > > Road Kamelote commented **"So sad... the dps is very low compared to other elite spec."** qT replied **"Yep deadeye for pve is very very bad."** > > > > So pretty much saying it's bad and don't use it. > > > So then they didn't say it falls behind Daredevil. Read it again. Stop cherry picking the bits that conform to your views and use some critical thinking skills. Not to mention that I said I had misquoted. qT: "Very low DPS, ... not enough to compete for a DPS spot, Yep deadeye for pve is very very bad...." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigirius.9014 Posted October 13, 2017 Author Share Posted October 13, 2017 > @Rhomulos.2089 said: > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > I have literally the opposite experience. In the overworld with Be Quick or Be Killed, I use D/P with Mug. I have near permanent quickness and heal from mug each time an enemy dies, and my first attack stuns them for a second. I'm whipping around like a freak with shadow shut, cutting enemies down like a human buzz-saw. > > > > If I happen to see a group that I can't render utterly helpless with black powder, I'll park myself down with rifle at max range, then systematically pick enemies off. I still get a ton of quickness, but I also stack a lot of might. All of the enemies die before they reach me, and for that one who does reach me I weapon swap and begin the buzz-saw rotation. The damage is fine, and most of the enemies. Against a champion, if I hit max malice I can spam DJ for several consecutive 24k hits when solo. > > > > The Deadeye has comparable damage to the Daredevil when it comes to power damage. From the perspective of power creep it isn't good, but from the perspective of balance the Deadeye is perfectly fine. > > Deadeye has extremely low damage, for pve its nothing more than an open world RP spec. Its fun and feels good when not using a rifle, but the dps is not good at all. This has been my experience. Very low DPS definitely not an AOE damage type so his experience killing multiple enemies with non-damaging sigils is a bit of a stretch which leads me to believe nothing of what he is saying about his experience in PVE is really happening without help from someone else. Nerfing PVE in order to make sure PVP is balanced is not the correct thing to do so saying it's balanced for PVP is actually a straw man argument has nothing to do with the problems this class has. They did actually factually nerf the class just before releasing it which is in the patch notes which is part of the problem. Not allowing the class to be live long enough to see where you actually need to make adjustments while simultanously testing in a closed testing group means you're not really getting the best information or advice from the testers. So once again the testing on a new class failed because it wasn't done properly so now we have to wait for the balance team to catchup and then reschedule to fix a problem that would have never been a problem had actual open testing (the best testing in the industry) was used and because this nerf happened before the class went live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zenith.7301 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 > @Alatar.7364 said: > It is Weak in PvE due to Rifles Single Target only DMG, unlike Rangers/Warriors Longbow it has no AoE skills. > So basically you should be swapping to your second Weapon set quite often for cleaves, etc. If you do that, then it's not necessarily Weak, only the Mindset behind playing with Rifle might make you think so. Ranger has no aoe skill outside barrage, which is a whopping 25-30 sec cd and does completely garbage damage. You picked the wrong class to be jealous of, rangers are not wanted in WvW at all just like mesmers precisely because they are the worst aoe classes for zerg warfare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 I am curious as to how the Deadeye can compete with [this Ranger build](https://youtu.be/5gZVMpN-F0I?t=13m55s) in terms of DPS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urejt.5648 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 deadeye has much more dps than deadeye with dd. Perma quickness, mark recharge on every small mob, insanity. Even vs enemies with huge hp deadeye deal more dmg thx to 3X5=15% more dps from mark. One could say deadeye has no mobility, but it is no longer needed since mount introduction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 > @Urejt.5648 said: > deadeye has much more dps than deadeye with dd. Perma quickness, mark recharge on every small mob, insanity. Even vs enemies with huge hp deadeye deal more dmg thx to 3X5=15% more dps from mark. > > One could say deadeye has no mobility, but it is no longer needed since mount introduction. Mobility is still important even after mounts. It's certainly less of a QoL issue, but it's just as much of a combat issue. If you're melee-focused, then you still need to be able to chase things down, and whether melee or ranged you need to be able to get away from unwanted pulls, or at minimum avoid the AoE disco floors that the game has. I'm honestly super curious how a Deadeye would handle the first boss fight in The Departed mission. The ground was almost always half lava, and constant movement was vital. Yes, a DE doesn't have to use Rifle, but he also has one less dodge, weaker dodges, and no Vault to avoid telegraphs with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mercurias.1826 Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 Meh. If I want to obsess over a raid DPS slot then I’ll probably run Daredevil. Deadeye is fun for open world PvE, and I like my build that focuses on using lots of the new Deadeye steal skills and dual pistols to chain-blast small fry enemies while kiting, then wear down bigger enemies while using tricks to dodge and maintain Health/Initiative. Definitely not raid material, but I enjoy it for farming and clearing world content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarrs.4831 Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 Deadeye Rifle's issues seem to stem entirely from an underwhelming autoattack, and that's easily changed; give it a damage buff while the Deadeye is kneeling. Possibly skillsplit based, but that seems like a bit of a copout. Maybe add "Concentration is converted to Power" somewhere along the bottom lane. A bootleg PS that can operate from range but doesn't give banners+EA seems like an interesting composition option. Seems to make sense, snipers gotta concentrate, right Without seeing what the raids are going to ask of us it's difficult to really tailor suggestions. Also RE range v mobility&melee, range is better. Range lets you target switch more quickly without any kind of cooldown limitation. Mobility does not. Range lets you pick from more safe locations. Mobility does not; you need to be on the boss or you lose damage. Deadeye's target switching *can* be bad though because of how the mark works, if you are frequently switching from main target to offtargets you will need to run Mercy, which doesn't really do a lot for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Hide.6345 Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 > @Ohoni.6057 said: > > @Urejt.5648 said: > > deadeye has much more dps than deadeye with dd. Perma quickness, mark recharge on every small mob, insanity. Even vs enemies with huge hp deadeye deal more dmg thx to 3X5=15% more dps from mark. > > > > One could say deadeye has no mobility, but it is no longer needed since mount introduction. > > Mobility is still important even after mounts. It's certainly less of a QoL issue, but it's just as much of a combat issue. If you're melee-focused, then you still need to be able to chase things down, and whether melee or ranged you need to be able to get away from unwanted pulls, or at minimum avoid the AoE disco floors that the game has. I'm honestly super curious how a Deadeye would handle the first boss fight in The Departed mission. The ground was almost always half lava, and constant movement was vital. Yes, a DE doesn't have to use Rifle, but he also has one less dodge, weaker dodges, and no Vault to avoid telegraphs with. I did that all on my Deadeye using my rifle. It was easy; I kept my distance even with kneel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 > @"Doctor Hide.6345" said: > > @Ohoni.6057 said: > > > @Urejt.5648 said: > > > deadeye has much more dps than deadeye with dd. Perma quickness, mark recharge on every small mob, insanity. Even vs enemies with huge hp deadeye deal more dmg thx to 3X5=15% more dps from mark. > > > > > > One could say deadeye has no mobility, but it is no longer needed since mount introduction. > > > > Mobility is still important even after mounts. It's certainly less of a QoL issue, but it's just as much of a combat issue. If you're melee-focused, then you still need to be able to chase things down, and whether melee or ranged you need to be able to get away from unwanted pulls, or at minimum avoid the AoE disco floors that the game has. I'm honestly super curious how a Deadeye would handle the first boss fight in The Departed mission. The ground was almost always half lava, and constant movement was vital. Yes, a DE doesn't have to use Rifle, but he also has one less dodge, weaker dodges, and no Vault to avoid telegraphs with. > > I did that all on my Deadeye using my rifle. It was easy; I kept my distance even with kneel. You are super leet. So I guess the solution is that we just need Doctor Hide to play the game for everyone using his super leet skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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