Mike O'Brien is not the only one leaving

[zealex.9410]

> @"Tiviana.2650" said:

> I think the bigger question is why he and those devs felt the need to move on to develop GW3? Remember they are inside , we are outside, they know a heck of a lot more about whats going on than we do.

 

They prob didnt want all the apples to be in one basket? I think thays fair, anet isnt the only company that tries to work on multiple products.

[Xar.6279]

It just looks like some of them are not that passionate about this game as they say sometimes. What's understandable of course. Being burn out is something common.

 

Now we're able to understand why potential of this game was so much wasted. Like PvP for example.

When some of us wanted to play better PvP in GW2. Some devs didn't care about it because they wanted to do new games.

 

 

 

[Gehenna.3625]

> @"Xar.6279" said:

> It just looks like some of them are not that passionate about this game as they say sometimes. What's understandable of course. Being burn out is something common.

>

> Now we're able to understand why potential of this game was so much wasted. Like PvP for example.

> When some of us wanted to play better PvP in GW2. Some devs didn't care about it because they wanted to do new games.

Well, PvP has been an issue from the release of this game. Particularly after playing GW1, the sPvP here has always seemed lacklustre. But I do think it's fair to say because we know that ArenaNet lost 35% of their staff and that other projects they were working on were cancelled. It's also during this time (2018) that they said that there wouldn't be any more expansions at least for some time. So that tells me that they were focusing on other things rather than giving GW2 the full attention.

 

In part I can understand it because for ArenaNet GW2 is what they make money with and I get that you may want to have something else next to that. But you may be right that they were a bit eager to jump on other things and kinda left GW2 a bit to the side. It certainly feels that way to me and they clearly are still not excited about making another expansion.

 

I do wonder now if Mike O'Brien is planning to make the spiritual successor for GW in his new company. Different name of course but I'm really interested in what he's going to do. Same thing with BioWare. Recently a lot of people have left there and also there some people set up a new studio.

 

I do not know what's going on in the game industry but I get the feeling that a lot of game companies have grown and become institutionalised. That means they got to a point where they were more concerned with themselves, their knowledge and experiences and internal processes rather than the customer. You see this in the communication across the industry. They are talking to players in marketing messages and non-committal, political statements and no longer speak WITH the players. They seem to think they know better what people want but I think they mistake what people will accept for what people actually want.

 

Maybe it's a good sign that there are troubles in studios and people going off and starting / joining new studios. Maybe just maybe they understand some things that they used to understand 10-20 years ago. Nowadays games are made to please shareholders and customers are really secondary in that. That's why it's good enough for them to keep people playing and spending rather than making things better or going the extra mile. And I'm not talking about those overworked developers that have way too much work stacked on them, but the people that lead them and have to answer to their bosses who answer to share holders. This is not EA but it's also not that as far away from it as it should perhaps.

 

 

[SnowMochi.7602]

> @"Tiviana.2650" said:

> I think the bigger question is why he and those devs felt the need to move on to develop GW3? Remember they are inside , we are outside, they know a heck of a lot more about whats going on than we do.

 

MO and Co. won't be able to develop GW3, especially now that they are no longer with Anet. The Guild Wars Intellectual Property is legally owned by NCSoft.

 

[SnowMochi.7602]

> @"Gehenna.3625" said:

> > @"Xar.6279" said:

> > It just looks like some of them are not that passionate about this game as they say sometimes. What's understandable of course. Being burn out is something common.

> >

> > Now we're able to understand why potential of this game was so much wasted. Like PvP for example.

> > When some of us wanted to play better PvP in GW2. Some devs didn't care about it because they wanted to do new games.

> Well, PvP has been an issue from the release of this game. Particularly after playing GW1, the sPvP here has always seemed lacklustre. But I do think it's fair to say because we know that ArenaNet lost 35% of their staff and that other projects they were working on were cancelled. It's also during this time (2018) that they said that there wouldn't be any more expansions at least for some time. So that tells me that they were focusing on other things rather than giving GW2 the full attention.

>

> In part I can understand it because for ArenaNet GW2 is what they make money with and I get that you may want to have something else next to that. But you may be right that they were a bit eager to jump on other things and kinda left GW2 a bit to the side. It certainly feels that way to me and they clearly are still not excited about making another expansion.

>

> I do wonder now if Mike O'Brien is planning to make the spiritual successor for GW in his new company. Different name of course but I'm really interested in what he's going to do. Same thing with BioWare. Recently a lot of people have left there and also there some people set up a new studio.

>

> I do not know what's going on in the game industry but I get the feeling that a lot of game companies have grown and become institutionalised. That means they got to a point where they were more concerned with themselves, their knowledge and experiences and internal processes rather than the customer. You see this in the communication across the industry. They are talking to players in marketing messages and non-committal, political statements and no longer speak WITH the players. They seem to think they know better what people want but I think they mistake what people will accept for what people actually want.

>

> Maybe it's a good sign that there are troubles in studios and people going off and starting / joining new studios. Maybe just maybe they understand some things that they used to understand 10-20 years ago. Nowadays games are made to please shareholders and customers are really secondary in that. That's why it's good enough for them to keep people playing and spending rather than making things better or going the extra mile. And I'm not talking about those overworked developers that have way too much work stacked on them, but the people that lead them and have to answer to their bosses who answer to share holders. This is not EA but it's also not that as far away from it as it should perhaps.

>

>

MO did mention wanting to work on smaller games, so we might (and I'm using this term advisedly) see something along the lines of a mobile game. An MMO is certainly more massive, both in scope and in undertaking.

 

[Xar.6279]

Its totally fine for the studio to do side projects. Like new games. Blizzard is pretty good example of doing something like that. It works. Its fine to grow.

However if you can't handle your main game which is your main source of income money and despite this you start to focus on few other games, then its not making your studio grow in any way. This is just asking for a disaster. And it looks very unprofessional. Personally I avoid doing any business with people which have this kind approach.

 

How do you want to handle few games if you can't handle one? I'll tell more. How do you want to handle few games if you can't handle ANY game mode in your game properly? PvP scene is dead. Raiding scene - same. WvW? Same. Every game mode in gw2 is unsupported.

 

 

 

[Ashantara.8731]

> @"Tiviana.2650" said:

> I think the bigger question is why he and those devs felt the need to move on to develop GW3?

 

I was wondering the same thing. The most likely explanation could be that the engine update capability of GW2 is very limited?

 

> Remember they are inside , we are outside, they know a heck of a lot more about whats going on than we do.

 

:+1:

[Ben K.6238]

> @"Ashantara.8731" said:

> > @"Tiviana.2650" said:

> > I think the bigger question is why he and those devs felt the need to move on to develop GW3?

>

> I was wondering the same thing. The most likely explanation could be that the engine update capability of GW2 is very limited?

 

If I were in their shoes, it'd be because GW2 has missed the boat on PvP content. GW1 was originally designed as a PvP game and those people were a core part of it, but the actual structure of GW2 PvP would make it prohibitively expensive to rework - Conquest is pretty much a failed experiment, but the entire class balance is designed around fights of the sort of scale you get there. Generally 1-3 a side, or 4-5 if the game's going badly for one side.

 

To actually get a good PvP game again, starting with a clean slate doesn't sound like a bad idea. And it's probably better not to make it an MMO.

[Xar.6279]

> @"Ben K.6238" said:

> > @"Ashantara.8731" said:

> > > @"Tiviana.2650" said:

> > > I think the bigger question is why he and those devs felt the need to move on to develop GW3?

> >

> > I was wondering the same thing. The most likely explanation could be that the engine update capability of GW2 is very limited?

>

> If I were in their shoes, it'd be because GW2 has missed the boat on PvP content. GW1 was originally designed as a PvP game and those people were a core part of it, but the actual structure of GW2 PvP would make it prohibitively expensive to rework - Conquest is pretty much a failed experiment, but the entire class balance is designed around fights of the sort of scale you get there. Generally 1-3 a side, or 4-5 if the game's going badly for one side.

>

> To actually get a good PvP game again, starting with a clean slate doesn't sound like a bad idea. And it's probably better not to make it an MMO.

 

Conquest is very good game mode tbh. Very skillful. Its not the problem of PvP in GW2 at all.

[Ben K.6238]

It's going to have a relatively positive perception amongst PvP players, but that's because the players who still play GW2 PvP will tend to be the ones who like it.

 

The ones who enjoyed GW1 PvP largely deserted this game at launch. There were a few reasons for this, but the two that stuck with me were:

 

- Combat was based around skill spam, instead of timing your skills well (and this has become worse with the expansions)

- Compared to GvG and Hall of Heroes, Conquest has very little tactical depth

[Dante.1508]

> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> You might get hit by a truck walking to work tomorrow, or get a fatal diagnosis from your GP on your next visit.

>

> Play the game. Or don't.

> Stop worrying. It achieves nothing.

 

A lot of customers like to know if there is any future in the games they are currently playing, as they have invested a lot into their accounts.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Ashantara.8731" said:

> > @"Tiviana.2650" said:

> > I think the bigger question is why he and those devs felt the need to move on to develop GW3?

>

> I was wondering the same thing. The most likely explanation could be that the engine update capability of GW2 is very limited?

I think it's more like they thought like programmers, not businessmen. They simply wanted to do something new for a change.

 

This way of thinking has been always present in what Anet was doing in gw2, so it would not be surprising if it affected the wider company policy as well.

 

It's not a bad way of thinking on individual level. Problem is, it's not something that should influence longterm business strategies. Especially if your primary (and _only_) source of income is a MMORPG game.

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

> @"SnowMochi.7602" said:

> > @"Tiviana.2650" said:

> > I think the bigger question is why he and those devs felt the need to move on to develop GW3? Remember they are inside , we are outside, they know a heck of a lot more about whats going on than we do.

>

> MO and Co. won't be able to develop GW3, especially now that they are no longer with Anet. The Guild Wars Intellectual Property is legally owned by NCSoft.

>

 

But they'd probably be able to make a game that's closer to their original vision of a mmorpg. Something that's not a NCsoft store with just enough gameplay to pose as a game.

 

Or at least they will try to. Depending on how successful their inevitable crowdfunding campaign will be.

 

It's a story that I keep seeing repeated many times in later years. Old school devs leaving their conglomerate-controlled/owned studios to go back to their roots through the indie market.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Ashantara.8731" said:

> > > @"Tiviana.2650" said:

> > > I think the bigger question is why he and those devs felt the need to move on to develop GW3?

> >

> > I was wondering the same thing. The most likely explanation could be that the engine update capability of GW2 is very limited?

> I think it's more like they thought like programmers, not businessmen. They simply wanted to do something new for a change.

>

> This way of thinking has been always present in what Anet was doing in gw2, so it would not be surprising if it affected the wider company policy as well.

>

> It's not a bad way of thinking on individual level. Problem is, it's not something that should influence longterm business strategies. Especially if your primary (and _only_) source of income is a MMORPG game.

 

Considering all the major studios that have mmo rpgs have also looked to expanding to other titles or genres i think it would be the right move for anet to also look to expand with diff titles or genres. Even a newer mmo as seen by the big success of ff14 would be a good option at some point for anet, esp since their current product is held down by its code.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"Ashantara.8731" said:

> > > > @"Tiviana.2650" said:

> > > > I think the bigger question is why he and those devs felt the need to move on to develop GW3?

> > >

> > > I was wondering the same thing. The most likely explanation could be that the engine update capability of GW2 is very limited?

> > I think it's more like they thought like programmers, not businessmen. They simply wanted to do something new for a change.

> >

> > This way of thinking has been always present in what Anet was doing in gw2, so it would not be surprising if it affected the wider company policy as well.

> >

> > It's not a bad way of thinking on individual level. Problem is, it's not something that should influence longterm business strategies. Especially if your primary (and _only_) source of income is a MMORPG game.

>

> Considering all the major studios that have mmo rpgs have also looked to expanding to other titles or genres i think it would be the right move for anet to also look to expand with diff titles or genres. Even a newer mmo as seen by the big success of ff14 would be a good option at some point for anet, esp since their current product is held down by its code.

Sure, but there's a good way to do that, and a bad way to do that. They redirected so many of their resources towards other projects, that it crippled GW2 development. **That** is what cost us an expac, for example. When you have one product that is your main source of income, you don't do that. You first make sure that project is developed well, and only use remainder of resources for other stuff.

And ironically, if they didn't overreach so much, and didn't hurt their main cash cow in the process, there's a possibility that NCSoft would not have gotten involved.

 

And as for FF XIV - remember that the failure of 1.0 has almost caused Square-Enix to go bankrupt. If 2.0 didn't work out (and it is near miracle that it did - everyone agrees with that, even FF XIV devs), the company would have gone under. And Anet is a much smaller company. They wouldn't be able to afford a failure on 1.0 scale.

 

[zealex.9410]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > @"Ashantara.8731" said:

> > > > > @"Tiviana.2650" said:

> > > > > I think the bigger question is why he and those devs felt the need to move on to develop GW3?

> > > >

> > > > I was wondering the same thing. The most likely explanation could be that the engine update capability of GW2 is very limited?

> > > I think it's more like they thought like programmers, not businessmen. They simply wanted to do something new for a change.

> > >

> > > This way of thinking has been always present in what Anet was doing in gw2, so it would not be surprising if it affected the wider company policy as well.

> > >

> > > It's not a bad way of thinking on individual level. Problem is, it's not something that should influence longterm business strategies. Especially if your primary (and _only_) source of income is a MMORPG game.

> >

> > Considering all the major studios that have mmo rpgs have also looked to expanding to other titles or genres i think it would be the right move for anet to also look to expand with diff titles or genres. Even a newer mmo as seen by the big success of ff14 would be a good option at some point for anet, esp since their current product is held down by its code.

> Sure, but there's a good way to do that, and a bad way to do that. They redirected so many of their resources towards other projects, that it crippled GW2 development. **That** is what cost us an expac, for example. When you have one product that is your main source of income, you don't do that. You first make sure that project is developed well, and only use remainder of resources for other stuff.

 

Lets not forget that gw2 is 7 years old and theres more content to it that ever was in gw1.

 

> And ironically, if they didn't overreach so much, and didn't hurt their main cash cow in the process, there's a possibility that NCSoft would not have gotten involved.

>

 

We also dont know since when they've been working on side projects. Ex devs have said that the plan was for se4 to be the final season, so i can assume that they started the big push because what ever other projects they had were picking up steam.

 

> And as for FF XIV - remember that the failure of 1.0 has almost caused Square-Enix to go bankrupt. If 2.0 didn't work out (and it is near miracle that it did - everyone agrees with that, even FF XIV devs), the company would have gone under. And Anet is a much smaller company. They wouldn't be able to afford a failure on 1.0 scale.

>

 

Yeah i do, ff14 is also the second mmo in the ff franchise and one could argue the same things that ppl argue now about gw2. I dont think Anet could afford a similar situation either but like squinix they should look to move on to newer things. Besides, ff14 income was likely funding other games since 1.0 or 2.0.

[Dante.1763]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

 

>

> We also dont know since when they've been working on side projects. Ex devs have said that the plan was for se4 to be the final season, so i can assume that they started the big push because what ever other projects they had were picking up steam.

 

So glad its not. The ending was just a big.. "What happens next" moment.

[Ashantara.8731]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> We also dont know since when they've been working on side projects. Ex devs have said that the plan was for se4 to be the final season

 

They really meant to stop develop GW2? What?! Source, please.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Ashantara.8731" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > We also dont know since when they've been working on side projects. Ex devs have said that the plan was for se4 to be the final season

>

> They really meant to stop develop GW2? What?! Source, please.

 

Idk about completely dropping gw2 but it was a string of tweets from JP a while after the whole meme where she discusses what was going on internally, from ppl being moved to side projects from the lw team, to up until halfway through lw se4 being under the assuption that season was gonna be the last season and then learning that theres gonna be a season 5.

 

I cant really pull up the tweets because im blocked, but imo she has no reason to lie, yes she has a distaste for MO and the management but she only had praise for the lw team and what they made.

[Greg.7086]

> @"Erasculio.2914" said:

> It's interesting that the "half-full" point of view is the one insulting some of the most important ArenaNet's developers.

 

@"Erasculio.2914" it's hardly an insult !!! Read very carefully what I said:

 

I said "can become lazy and complacent, lack direction or any fresh new ideas".

 

And I stand by that statement and it's not an insult: It's just real life. People work hard at the beginning of any new job or career: They are keen to impress, motivated, enthusiastic, full of fresh ideas, keen to make an impact etc, but over the years, things can take their toll, burn-out is a massive factor in the gaming industry and people can lose focus or direction, and become devoid of any fresh new ideas... and most certainly people can become lazy and complacent when they have been comfortable for many years in the same job (ofc not all, some people are workaholics and could never be accused of being lazy or complacent, but for these people "burn-out" is a massive problem).

 

Sure I'd rather Anet not have any lay-offs at all, and be expanding their workforce: Concentrating on developing and improving all game modes especially WvW, PvP and maybe even some new game mode that we haven't seen at all yet. I think it's a stark fact that as gw2 is 7 years old there are 10's of thousands of players that have reached "end-game mode" so for the current and new devs to focus on some more hardcore end-game content rather than just Story-line Saga and Gem Store skins would retain more of the current players, and could bring back those that have quit.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bloodstealer.5978]

> @"Erasculio.2914" said:

> > @"AlexxxDelta.1806" said:

> > I'm often wondering the exact same thing when reading "everything is fine, nothing to see here" posts on here or Reddit. If things like these **aren't** signs of trouble, then **what** would be?

>

> Exactly.

>

> People can say ["everything is fine"](https://imgur.com/gallery/c4jt321) as much as they want, but we have had a lot of bad news recently. Between the JP incident, the big layoffs, ArenaNet's composer asking to not work exclusively for them anymore, a lot of important people leaving, and so on... It's more than enough for players to worry.

>

> And what good news have we had? The disappointing announcement of the Ice Brood Saga? Or a feature requested for years released with a dubious monetization scheme? The alliances system for WvW being delayed yet again?

>

> After the layoffs, some people said that it was fine - GW2 had lost some people, but also got people back who had been working on other projects. The question is, would those who had willingly chosen to work on something other than GW2 even want to go back? We have just been told that Mike O'Brien left because he was a cofounder, but ArenaNet hadn't told us about the other developers who left with him. I wonder how many other developers have also left after the layoffs.

>

Not sure anyone said it was going to be fine, only it wasn't the end of the world.. layoffs are a thing especially when its a global business, that is part of a bigger global business. The layoffs actually took ANET back to around the number of people they had when GW2 launched, the disappointing news was hearing some of the names that left either by choice or by request... perhaps that might just be coming clearer with this latest news who knows, its not really our business to know though in fairness.

Just because I own a certain make of car doesn't mean I am owed an explanation when anyone leaves the business or something fundamental happens within it.

The only thing we players can do is either keep playing and help support ANET deliver continuing development of the game or go elsewhere for our fun fix.

Continuing to speculate and push doom and gloom everywhere doesn't help any of us or ANET.. what will be will be.

 

[Erasculio.2914]

> @"Greg.7086" said:

> And I stand by that statement and it's not an insult: It's just real life.

 

Uhu. So the "it's not an insult when it's true" argument, then?

 

Again, if the optimistic view is the one calling some of the most important people on ArenaNet "lazy and complacent", I would rather be pessimistic.

 

> @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> The layoffs actually took ANET back to around the number of people they had when GW2 launched

 

Did it?

 

Considering we now know that more people left _after_ the layoffs... Looks like ArenaNet is hurting for people right now.

[Ashen.2907]

> @"Substance E.4852" said:

> > @"kratan.4619" said:

> > > @"Erasculio.2914" said:

> > > > @"Blude.6812" said:

> > > > Is maintenance mode just around the corner?

> > > Doesn't look like ArenaNet is too deep into finantial trouble.

> > >

> > > However, my main concern after the layoffs was the company's morale - now that GW2 is the only (and likely last) game ArenaNet has, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the employees who have been there for a long time decide to leave. There's only so much time one can stand working on the same project, after all.

> > >

> > > Whether or not GW2 can afford to lose that many experienced developers, in other hand...

> > >

> >

> > Everybody is replaceable, a lot of people think they are not, but they all are.

>

> Human beings are not interchangeable widgets, least of all in the creative sense

>

> The only people who believe this are corporate bean counters and people who don't interact with others face to face enough

 

Perhaps not, but they are not the unique special treasures that their mommies told them either.

 

Any job that has one person doing it can be done by others. There is someone out there, for any person doing a job, that can do the job better, or who could learn to do it better.

[sorudo.9054]

with the way this game turned into a quick money grab game, i am glad they clean ship.

the only worry i have is that they make it even worse, the focus on gem-store stuff is already worrying and raising the price on the most ridicules items doesn't help one bit.

 

just get back on fixing the game, not adding more easy money.

[Xar.6279]

Imo Mana Works studio wont focus on mmorpg's and it will be actually good for them. I was writing about it in the past:

 

> @"Xar.6279" said:

> Imo ArenaNet should focus on doing offline games. As a studio. Maybe rpg or even something else. And just forget about mmorpg's.

>

> Last 7+ years showed that they just can't handle MMORPG genre. They're good in doing new things. Which are kind of innovative and creative.

> I am pretty sure there's ALOT of talented people in ArenaNet. But it looks like when they do something, then they just can't support it enough to keep people interested.

> We can see it in every competitive game mode. PvP. Raids. WvW.

>

> They do cool things but then it looks like they abandon them to focus on doing another new things. Instead of developing them more and more.

> Even SaB showed it.

 

I think they will focus on doing some indie games. Maybe for steam. Or mobile games.

 

However what's more important: we will see what is ahead of us. In Guild Wars 2. Those reorganized teams focused on Guild Wars 2 (not side projects) may finally do something good for this game. Icebrood saga started pretty good.