GrubySzymek.1362 Posted October 15, 2017 Author Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @TexZero.7910 said: > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > @TexZero.7910 said: > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > > @Jephery.8915 said: > > > > > Your suggestions really won't fix anything. If a player doesn't show their DPS to the group and the group cares, they'll just get kicked before the first pull, instead of getting kicked when their dps is low. > > > > > > > > > > If anything you'll just make it easier for people to filter you out of their community. > > > > > > > > But it would be my choice to not share and get kicked. Currently it isn't. > > > > > > > > Also, look at my No2 suggestion. If anet acknowledges this app and their responsibility and support to players that it may cause any damage, I seize my case. > > > > > > Again.....Your choices are literal impossibilities. > > > > > > You cannot do anything in this game, lets just take combat out of the equation for this without the server reporting your presence to everyone. It also has to do this for other players, mobs, npc's, and resource nodes (not to mention worldstate and other non-interactable but changing objects) > > > > > > Additionally, Anet cannot take legal responsibilities for a program it doesn't own. Software doesn't work that way. This is why they have their third party policy not only stickied here but mentioned on their support site. > > > > If they approve the app and force all players to accept it can be used without their consent or knowledge, they have to take responsibility for consequences of their decicion. > > They've approved the app, but in no way can anyone not even Microsoft™ force you to have software you do not wish to have. Please stop skirting this. You have a choice, you're just refusing to understand the issues at large. You lack the basic understanding of the game and server-client interactions and in doing so you're making claims that are entirely fictitious and coming to conclusions that are false. This software is beyond my control because anyone can use it without my knowledge to monitor my account. There is no visibility or responsibility and yet it's expected I take all the consequences on myself. Anyway, thank you for your input and sharing your opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @"Hot Boy.7138" said: > I'm very casual and very far from being an elitist, but I stil strongly agree that anyone in a party or squad, deserves to see the performance of their fellow party members. The only people who would have an issue with a dps meter is someone who wants to get carried by their group. They wanna underperform and while not alerting others that they are underperforming. That's not right. No what's not right is that you dont understand that gameplay is not about 'performance' - an attitude that has leaked in from competitive and speed run styles of gameplay and gamres like WOW where meter power is everything. You do not 'deserve'/aka entitled to view someone elses stats. if you act that way in real life where you group up with people for a RL cooperative game (note competitive is very different) - that would be weird and anti social. 'underperform' and 'carrying' are negatives applied by someone who thinks performance is more important than being a team player in a context where it is not appropriate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > @TexZero.7910 said: > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > @TexZero.7910 said: > > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > > > @Jephery.8915 said: > > > > > > Your suggestions really won't fix anything. If a player doesn't show their DPS to the group and the group cares, they'll just get kicked before the first pull, instead of getting kicked when their dps is low. > > > > > > > > > > > > If anything you'll just make it easier for people to filter you out of their community. > > > > > > > > > > But it would be my choice to not share and get kicked. Currently it isn't. > > > > > > > > > > Also, look at my No2 suggestion. If anet acknowledges this app and their responsibility and support to players that it may cause any damage, I seize my case. > > > > > > > > Again.....Your choices are literal impossibilities. > > > > > > > > You cannot do anything in this game, lets just take combat out of the equation for this without the server reporting your presence to everyone. It also has to do this for other players, mobs, npc's, and resource nodes (not to mention worldstate and other non-interactable but changing objects) > > > > > > > > Additionally, Anet cannot take legal responsibilities for a program it doesn't own. Software doesn't work that way. This is why they have their third party policy not only stickied here but mentioned on their support site. > > > > > > If they approve the app and force all players to accept it can be used without their consent or knowledge, they have to take responsibility for consequences of their decicion. > > > > They've approved the app, but in no way can anyone not even Microsoft™ force you to have software you do not wish to have. Please stop skirting this. You have a choice, you're just refusing to understand the issues at large. You lack the basic understanding of the game and server-client interactions and in doing so you're making claims that are entirely fictitious and coming to conclusions that are false. > > This software is beyond my control because anyone can use it without my knowledge to monitor my account. There is no visibility or responsibility and yet it's expected I take all the consequences on myself. > > Anyway, thank you for your input and sharing your opinion. Oh my lord. No one is monitoring your account. Please stop with this nonsensical falsehood. The only thing these meters do is take the publicly available status and make them have a logical (read order) value based on whatever metric is chosen be it damage dealt, taken, time spent rezzing, boon uptime, outgoing healing etc...... It's not like this tools are parsing your login credentials and stealing your credit card information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted October 15, 2017 Author Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @TexZero.7910 said: > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > @TexZero.7910 said: > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > > @TexZero.7910 said: > > > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > > > > @Jephery.8915 said: > > > > > > > Your suggestions really won't fix anything. If a player doesn't show their DPS to the group and the group cares, they'll just get kicked before the first pull, instead of getting kicked when their dps is low. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If anything you'll just make it easier for people to filter you out of their community. > > > > > > > > > > > > But it would be my choice to not share and get kicked. Currently it isn't. > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, look at my No2 suggestion. If anet acknowledges this app and their responsibility and support to players that it may cause any damage, I seize my case. > > > > > > > > > > Again.....Your choices are literal impossibilities. > > > > > > > > > > You cannot do anything in this game, lets just take combat out of the equation for this without the server reporting your presence to everyone. It also has to do this for other players, mobs, npc's, and resource nodes (not to mention worldstate and other non-interactable but changing objects) > > > > > > > > > > Additionally, Anet cannot take legal responsibilities for a program it doesn't own. Software doesn't work that way. This is why they have their third party policy not only stickied here but mentioned on their support site. > > > > > > > > If they approve the app and force all players to accept it can be used without their consent or knowledge, they have to take responsibility for consequences of their decicion. > > > > > > They've approved the app, but in no way can anyone not even Microsoft™ force you to have software you do not wish to have. Please stop skirting this. You have a choice, you're just refusing to understand the issues at large. You lack the basic understanding of the game and server-client interactions and in doing so you're making claims that are entirely fictitious and coming to conclusions that are false. > > > > This software is beyond my control because anyone can use it without my knowledge to monitor my account. There is no visibility or responsibility and yet it's expected I take all the consequences on myself. > > > > Anyway, thank you for your input and sharing your opinion. > > Oh my lord. No one is monitoring your account. Please stop with this nonsensical falsehood. > The only thing these meters do is take the publicly available status and make them have a logical (read order) value based on whatever metric is chosen be it damage dealt, taken, time spent rezzing, boon uptime, outgoing healing etc...... > > It's not like this tools are parsing your login credentials and stealing your credit card information. I have no guarantee this tool won't do this eventually since ArenaNet refuses to take responsibility for it. It's like they know about possible danger of this tool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > @TexZero.7910 said: > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > @TexZero.7910 said: > > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > > > @TexZero.7910 said: > > > > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > > > > > @Jephery.8915 said: > > > > > > > > Your suggestions really won't fix anything. If a player doesn't show their DPS to the group and the group cares, they'll just get kicked before the first pull, instead of getting kicked when their dps is low. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If anything you'll just make it easier for people to filter you out of their community. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But it would be my choice to not share and get kicked. Currently it isn't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, look at my No2 suggestion. If anet acknowledges this app and their responsibility and support to players that it may cause any damage, I seize my case. > > > > > > > > > > > > Again.....Your choices are literal impossibilities. > > > > > > > > > > > > You cannot do anything in this game, lets just take combat out of the equation for this without the server reporting your presence to everyone. It also has to do this for other players, mobs, npc's, and resource nodes (not to mention worldstate and other non-interactable but changing objects) > > > > > > > > > > > > Additionally, Anet cannot take legal responsibilities for a program it doesn't own. Software doesn't work that way. This is why they have their third party policy not only stickied here but mentioned on their support site. > > > > > > > > > > If they approve the app and force all players to accept it can be used without their consent or knowledge, they have to take responsibility for consequences of their decicion. > > > > > > > > They've approved the app, but in no way can anyone not even Microsoft™ force you to have software you do not wish to have. Please stop skirting this. You have a choice, you're just refusing to understand the issues at large. You lack the basic understanding of the game and server-client interactions and in doing so you're making claims that are entirely fictitious and coming to conclusions that are false. > > > > > > This software is beyond my control because anyone can use it without my knowledge to monitor my account. There is no visibility or responsibility and yet it's expected I take all the consequences on myself. > > > > > > Anyway, thank you for your input and sharing your opinion. > > > > Oh my lord. No one is monitoring your account. Please stop with this nonsensical falsehood. > > The only thing these meters do is take the publicly available status and make them have a logical (read order) value based on whatever metric is chosen be it damage dealt, taken, time spent rezzing, boon uptime, outgoing healing etc...... > > > > It's not like this tools are parsing your login credentials and stealing your credit card information. > > I have no guarantee this tool won't do this eventually since ArenaNet refuses to take responsibility for it. It's like they know about possible danger of this tool. then dont install it on your system and if your still paranoid after that i'd recommend installing as many security tools as you can stockpile or just unplugging your modem entirely as ultimately the most secure you can be is by not participating in the digital age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer.5978 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @TexZero.7910 said: > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > **This is the case not only of privacy, but also security, choice, respect and fair ground for all the players**. Your current policy states that every player can use a 3rd party app that translates visual, yet not direct information from game client into direct number also associating it with my account. This app can be used to monitor my account without my consent or even knowledge that another player is monitoring my activity in game. **I think this is totally out of place that you force all players in game to expect that every time they join a group, they are have to be assuming anyone can be monitoring them**. ArcDPS is not part of the game, it's 3rd party tool. We never agreed to anything related to deltaconnected in User Agreement. Your answer is that "you join the party, you agree to be monitored". Well, no. **This is very wide and unfair approach. ArcDPS is not part of the game, is not required for game integrity or content completion. You should not require me to accept this tool automatically when joining the group when at the same time ArenaNet takes no responsibility for any problems caused by this tool**. I think this is also out of place that you now gate your content with the premise of agreeing to using this tool. > > You sir are missing the point. Arc isnt taking anything, literally anything from your account. Stop intentionally missing the point as it was made clear as day. All that data when it comes to combat/mob status/player interaction with the area IS PUBLIC and Isn't going to change because it quite literally cannot as unless you want us to go back to a single player game it's quite literally impossible to have a shared open world without public actions being reported to all clients connected to the server. > > I am thinking you also may be missing Khels point.. its not about the data .. its about allowing a 3rd party application to automatically collect and monitor the players data regardless of whether ANET already have it, require it. No request for consent has ever been put to players, it has just become opensource open use policy and that doesn't sit well. If all the info is readily available in game why is ARC DPS required.. or is it that it can sort through all the data logs and make other players data specifically visible to a wider audience for everyone to see and grief/abuse if they want.. in which case there will always be an argument about its legitimacy imo. Personally I don't give a rats about my DPS.. I am no min maxer, I play the way I want and if others want to kick me cos they can see I am putting out 10dps less than he/she is then great do so and let those numpties play with themselves. I come to GW2 to get away from working life and drama. But ANET changing their policy to allow ARCDPS to run around uncontrolled and without the permiss of others in group to monitor them is bad practice and needs looking at properly imo, but that won't happen we know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted October 15, 2017 Author Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @TexZero.7910 said: > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > @TexZero.7910 said: > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > > @TexZero.7910 said: > > > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > > > > @TexZero.7910 said: > > > > > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > > > > > > @Jephery.8915 said: > > > > > > > > > Your suggestions really won't fix anything. If a player doesn't show their DPS to the group and the group cares, they'll just get kicked before the first pull, instead of getting kicked when their dps is low. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If anything you'll just make it easier for people to filter you out of their community. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But it would be my choice to not share and get kicked. Currently it isn't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, look at my No2 suggestion. If anet acknowledges this app and their responsibility and support to players that it may cause any damage, I seize my case. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again.....Your choices are literal impossibilities. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You cannot do anything in this game, lets just take combat out of the equation for this without the server reporting your presence to everyone. It also has to do this for other players, mobs, npc's, and resource nodes (not to mention worldstate and other non-interactable but changing objects) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Additionally, Anet cannot take legal responsibilities for a program it doesn't own. Software doesn't work that way. This is why they have their third party policy not only stickied here but mentioned on their support site. > > > > > > > > > > > > If they approve the app and force all players to accept it can be used without their consent or knowledge, they have to take responsibility for consequences of their decicion. > > > > > > > > > > They've approved the app, but in no way can anyone not even Microsoft™ force you to have software you do not wish to have. Please stop skirting this. You have a choice, you're just refusing to understand the issues at large. You lack the basic understanding of the game and server-client interactions and in doing so you're making claims that are entirely fictitious and coming to conclusions that are false. > > > > > > > > This software is beyond my control because anyone can use it without my knowledge to monitor my account. There is no visibility or responsibility and yet it's expected I take all the consequences on myself. > > > > > > > > Anyway, thank you for your input and sharing your opinion. > > > > > > Oh my lord. No one is monitoring your account. Please stop with this nonsensical falsehood. > > > The only thing these meters do is take the publicly available status and make them have a logical (read order) value based on whatever metric is chosen be it damage dealt, taken, time spent rezzing, boon uptime, outgoing healing etc...... > > > > > > It's not like this tools are parsing your login credentials and stealing your credit card information. > > > > I have no guarantee this tool won't do this eventually since ArenaNet refuses to take responsibility for it. It's like they know about possible danger of this tool. > > then dont install it on your system and if your still paranoid after that i'd recommend installing as many security tools as you can stockpile or just unplugging your modem entirely as ultimately the most secure you can be is by not participating in the digital age. I'm not using this tool. But people who monitor my account with it may eventually get way to read undesired information without my knowledge or consent. It took 1 update for BGDM to become non compliant with Anet rules and even it was removed from approved app list, it is still used by many people because they are don't know it's no longer compliant or they do not care. It would be also wonderful if you stopped with personal innuendos towards me and stayed on topic. Calling me paranoid shows you pretty desperate about shoving your personal bias onto me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Bloodstealer.5978 said: > I am thinking you also may be missing Khels point.. its not about the data .. its about allowing a 3rd party application to automatically collect and monitor the players data regardless of whether ANET already have it, require it. No request for consent has ever been put to players, it has just become opensource open use policy and that doesn't sit well. > If all the info is readily available in game why is ARC DPS required.. or is it that it can sort through all the data logs and make other players data specifically visible to a wider audience for everyone to see and grief/abuse if they want.. in which case there will always be an argument about its legitimacy imo. > > Personally I don't give a rats about my DPS.. I am no min maxer, I play the way I want and if others want to kick me cos they can see I am putting out 10dps less than he/she is then great do so and let those numpties play with themselves. I come to GW2 to get away from working life and drama. > But ANET changing their policy to allow ARCDPS to run around uncontrolled and without the permiss of others in group to monitor them is bad practice and needs looking at properly imo, but that won't happen we know. 1) It's not collecting data, it's parsing data there's a difference. It's public data and is readily available to everyone 2) It's not required, It's optional and provides the data in a format that's easier to digest and more accurate than the ways you could previously do it. 3) The policy never changed. We've always been able to use third party tools and UI's. What changed was the public stance towards them confirming that people will not be banned for using them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted October 15, 2017 Author Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @TexZero.7910 said: > > @Bloodstealer.5978 said: > > I am thinking you also may be missing Khels point.. its not about the data .. its about allowing a 3rd party application to automatically collect and monitor the players data regardless of whether ANET already have it, require it. No request for consent has ever been put to players, it has just become opensource open use policy and that doesn't sit well. > > If all the info is readily available in game why is ARC DPS required.. or is it that it can sort through all the data logs and make other players data specifically visible to a wider audience for everyone to see and grief/abuse if they want.. in which case there will always be an argument about its legitimacy imo. > > > > Personally I don't give a rats about my DPS.. I am no min maxer, I play the way I want and if others want to kick me cos they can see I am putting out 10dps less than he/she is then great do so and let those numpties play with themselves. I come to GW2 to get away from working life and drama. > > But ANET changing their policy to allow ARCDPS to run around uncontrolled and without the permiss of others in group to monitor them is bad practice and needs looking at properly imo, but that won't happen we know. > > 1) It's not collecting data, it's parsing data there's a difference. It's public data and is readily available to everyone > 2) It's not required, It's optional and provides the data in a format that's easier to digest and more accurate than the ways you could previously do it. > 3) The policy never changed. We've always been able to use third party tools and UI's. What changed was the public stance towards them confirming that people will not be banned for using them It's parsing data that anet allowed him to do but it's possible for this app to read and show other data, like gearcheck options. What guarantee do I have that at some point this tool is not going to steal other information? This is why Anet needs to make sure any account needs to consent to share its data with dps meter of other people or acknowledge they take responsibility for damage caused by this tool. This is also about situation when I am not using it personally but I have no power to block it being used against me either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shirlias.8104 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 Oh finally a post from the staff which put an end to this nonsense. Thank you very much Chris. Really, thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > @TexZero.7910 said: > > > @Bloodstealer.5978 said: > > > I am thinking you also may be missing Khels point.. its not about the data .. its about allowing a 3rd party application to automatically collect and monitor the players data regardless of whether ANET already have it, require it. No request for consent has ever been put to players, it has just become opensource open use policy and that doesn't sit well. > > > If all the info is readily available in game why is ARC DPS required.. or is it that it can sort through all the data logs and make other players data specifically visible to a wider audience for everyone to see and grief/abuse if they want.. in which case there will always be an argument about its legitimacy imo. > > > > > > Personally I don't give a rats about my DPS.. I am no min maxer, I play the way I want and if others want to kick me cos they can see I am putting out 10dps less than he/she is then great do so and let those numpties play with themselves. I come to GW2 to get away from working life and drama. > > > But ANET changing their policy to allow ARCDPS to run around uncontrolled and without the permiss of others in group to monitor them is bad practice and needs looking at properly imo, but that won't happen we know. > > > > 1) It's not collecting data, it's parsing data there's a difference. It's public data and is readily available to everyone > > 2) It's not required, It's optional and provides the data in a format that's easier to digest and more accurate than the ways you could previously do it. > > 3) The policy never changed. We've always been able to use third party tools and UI's. What changed was the public stance towards them confirming that people will not be banned for using them > > It's parsing data that anet allowed him to do but it's possible for this app to read and show other data, like gearcheck options. What guarantee do I have that at some point this tool is not going to steal other information? This is why Anet needs to make sure any account needs to consent to share its data with dps meter of other people or acknowledge they take responsibility for damage caused by this tool. This is also about situation when I am not using it personally but I have no power to block it being used against me either. So your entire argument boils down to a slippery slope based on your ill-informed state ? I suggest you ask Chris Cleary in depth about this via email as i'm sure he'll be more than capable of explaining why what you just said is unfounded and comes from being an under informed user. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted October 15, 2017 Author Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @TexZero.7910 said: > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > @TexZero.7910 said: > > > > @Bloodstealer.5978 said: > > > > I am thinking you also may be missing Khels point.. its not about the data .. its about allowing a 3rd party application to automatically collect and monitor the players data regardless of whether ANET already have it, require it. No request for consent has ever been put to players, it has just become opensource open use policy and that doesn't sit well. > > > > If all the info is readily available in game why is ARC DPS required.. or is it that it can sort through all the data logs and make other players data specifically visible to a wider audience for everyone to see and grief/abuse if they want.. in which case there will always be an argument about its legitimacy imo. > > > > > > > > Personally I don't give a rats about my DPS.. I am no min maxer, I play the way I want and if others want to kick me cos they can see I am putting out 10dps less than he/she is then great do so and let those numpties play with themselves. I come to GW2 to get away from working life and drama. > > > > But ANET changing their policy to allow ARCDPS to run around uncontrolled and without the permiss of others in group to monitor them is bad practice and needs looking at properly imo, but that won't happen we know. > > > > > > 1) It's not collecting data, it's parsing data there's a difference. It's public data and is readily available to everyone > > > 2) It's not required, It's optional and provides the data in a format that's easier to digest and more accurate than the ways you could previously do it. > > > 3) The policy never changed. We've always been able to use third party tools and UI's. What changed was the public stance towards them confirming that people will not be banned for using them > > > > It's parsing data that anet allowed him to do but it's possible for this app to read and show other data, like gearcheck options. What guarantee do I have that at some point this tool is not going to steal other information? This is why Anet needs to make sure any account needs to consent to share its data with dps meter of other people or acknowledge they take responsibility for damage caused by this tool. This is also about situation when I am not using it personally but I have no power to block it being used against me either. > > So your entire argument boils down to a slippery slope based on your ill-informed state ? > > I suggest you as Chris Cleary in depth about this via email as i'm sure he'll be more than capable of explaining why what you just said is unfounded and comes from being an under informed user. If this was true, ArenaNet would not be afraid of acknowledging responsibility and support for accounts that are on risk of being monitored against their will by any player in game. Anyway, thank you for participating and sharing opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer.5978 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @TexZero.7910 said: > > @Bloodstealer.5978 said: > > I am thinking you also may be missing Khels point.. its not about the data .. its about allowing a 3rd party application to automatically collect and monitor the players data regardless of whether ANET already have it, require it. No request for consent has ever been put to players, it has just become opensource open use policy and that doesn't sit well. > > If all the info is readily available in game why is ARC DPS required.. or is it that it can sort through all the data logs and make other players data specifically visible to a wider audience for everyone to see and grief/abuse if they want.. in which case there will always be an argument about its legitimacy imo. > > > > Personally I don't give a rats about my DPS.. I am no min maxer, I play the way I want and if others want to kick me cos they can see I am putting out 10dps less than he/she is then great do so and let those numpties play with themselves. I come to GW2 to get away from working life and drama. > > But ANET changing their policy to allow ARCDPS to run around uncontrolled and without the permiss of others in group to monitor them is bad practice and needs looking at properly imo, but that won't happen we know. > > 1) It's not collecting data, it's parsing data there's a difference. It's public data and is readily available to everyone > 2) It's not required, It's optional and provides the data in a format that's easier to digest and more accurate than the ways you could previously do it. > 3) The policy never changed. We've always been able to use third party tools and UI's. What changed was the public stance towards them confirming that people will not be banned for using them OK sorry.. parse data.. The fact is its already data that's been available since day 1.. and you just confirmed why ARCDPS is being used.. so it can sort through individual data and display it in a way that makes each players stick out like a sore thumb .. therefore its nothing more than a glorified griefing tool.. its not required for any other purpose because like we know.. all that data is already there within game... thanks for clearing that up. So ANET has basically changed there ToS to allow a 3rd party application to used for no other real purpose other than to open up the potential for player griefing... seems a cool idea. Other MMO's I have played that allow DPS meters actually require both parties to have the software loaded and therefore consent for the sharing of the/display of one another's stats, builds and dps/heals etc.. that kind of policy works far better because its consensual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > @TexZero.7910 said: > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > @TexZero.7910 said: > > > > > @Bloodstealer.5978 said: > > > > > I am thinking you also may be missing Khels point.. its not about the data .. its about allowing a 3rd party application to automatically collect and monitor the players data regardless of whether ANET already have it, require it. No request for consent has ever been put to players, it has just become opensource open use policy and that doesn't sit well. > > > > > If all the info is readily available in game why is ARC DPS required.. or is it that it can sort through all the data logs and make other players data specifically visible to a wider audience for everyone to see and grief/abuse if they want.. in which case there will always be an argument about its legitimacy imo. > > > > > > > > > > Personally I don't give a rats about my DPS.. I am no min maxer, I play the way I want and if others want to kick me cos they can see I am putting out 10dps less than he/she is then great do so and let those numpties play with themselves. I come to GW2 to get away from working life and drama. > > > > > But ANET changing their policy to allow ARCDPS to run around uncontrolled and without the permiss of others in group to monitor them is bad practice and needs looking at properly imo, but that won't happen we know. > > > > > > > > 1) It's not collecting data, it's parsing data there's a difference. It's public data and is readily available to everyone > > > > 2) It's not required, It's optional and provides the data in a format that's easier to digest and more accurate than the ways you could previously do it. > > > > 3) The policy never changed. We've always been able to use third party tools and UI's. What changed was the public stance towards them confirming that people will not be banned for using them > > > > > > It's parsing data that anet allowed him to do but it's possible for this app to read and show other data, like gearcheck options. What guarantee do I have that at some point this tool is not going to steal other information? This is why Anet needs to make sure any account needs to consent to share its data with dps meter of other people or acknowledge they take responsibility for damage caused by this tool. This is also about situation when I am not using it personally but I have no power to block it being used against me either. > > > > So your entire argument boils down to a slippery slope based on your ill-informed state ? > > > > I suggest you as Chris Cleary in depth about this via email as i'm sure he'll be more than capable of explaining why what you just said is unfounded and comes from being an under informed user. > > If this was true, ArenaNet would not be afraid of acknowledging responsibility and support for accounts that are on risk of being monitored against their will by any player in game. > > Anyway, thank you for participating and sharing opinions. Really ? Hyperbole doesn't help your cause. No one is being monitored by any player against their will. You the user agreed by playing the game and accepting the terms of service / user agreement that Anet will protect your private data (Real Name, Credit Card, Location etc...) all digital information created by playing is public. Right now they currently do not allow, although physically possible gear checks to occur and if you find a non-complaint tool report it to Chris so they can reverse engineer it if needed and shut it down or take the legal approach and issue Cease and Desists Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted October 15, 2017 Author Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @TexZero.7910 said: > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > @TexZero.7910 said: > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > > @TexZero.7910 said: > > > > > > @Bloodstealer.5978 said: > > > > > > I am thinking you also may be missing Khels point.. its not about the data .. its about allowing a 3rd party application to automatically collect and monitor the players data regardless of whether ANET already have it, require it. No request for consent has ever been put to players, it has just become opensource open use policy and that doesn't sit well. > > > > > > If all the info is readily available in game why is ARC DPS required.. or is it that it can sort through all the data logs and make other players data specifically visible to a wider audience for everyone to see and grief/abuse if they want.. in which case there will always be an argument about its legitimacy imo. > > > > > > > > > > > > Personally I don't give a rats about my DPS.. I am no min maxer, I play the way I want and if others want to kick me cos they can see I am putting out 10dps less than he/she is then great do so and let those numpties play with themselves. I come to GW2 to get away from working life and drama. > > > > > > But ANET changing their policy to allow ARCDPS to run around uncontrolled and without the permiss of others in group to monitor them is bad practice and needs looking at properly imo, but that won't happen we know. > > > > > > > > > > 1) It's not collecting data, it's parsing data there's a difference. It's public data and is readily available to everyone > > > > > 2) It's not required, It's optional and provides the data in a format that's easier to digest and more accurate than the ways you could previously do it. > > > > > 3) The policy never changed. We've always been able to use third party tools and UI's. What changed was the public stance towards them confirming that people will not be banned for using them > > > > > > > > It's parsing data that anet allowed him to do but it's possible for this app to read and show other data, like gearcheck options. What guarantee do I have that at some point this tool is not going to steal other information? This is why Anet needs to make sure any account needs to consent to share its data with dps meter of other people or acknowledge they take responsibility for damage caused by this tool. This is also about situation when I am not using it personally but I have no power to block it being used against me either. > > > > > > So your entire argument boils down to a slippery slope based on your ill-informed state ? > > > > > > I suggest you as Chris Cleary in depth about this via email as i'm sure he'll be more than capable of explaining why what you just said is unfounded and comes from being an under informed user. > > > > If this was true, ArenaNet would not be afraid of acknowledging responsibility and support for accounts that are on risk of being monitored against their will by any player in game. > > > > Anyway, thank you for participating and sharing opinions. > > Really ? > > Hyperbole doesn't help your cause. No one is being monitored by any player against their will. > You the user agreed by playing the game and accepting the terms of service / user agreement that Anet will protect your private data (Real Name, Credit Card, Location etc...) all digital information created by playing is public. > > Right now they currently do not allow, although physically possible gear checks to occur and if you find a non-complaint tool report it to Chris so they can reverse engineer it if needed and shut it down or take the legal approach and issue Cease and Desists > This doesn't prevent damage to be done, it only allows them to react after data is stolen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deihnyx.6318 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 Its absolutely insane how far people are bringing this non-issue. Seriously... talking about law and security now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladine.6082 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @"Chris Cleary.8017" said: > Since this thread has really exploded, and there seems to be some possible misunderstanding about privacy here, I'll comment. > > The current implementation of DPS meters is nothing more than a re-presentation of information already being transmitted by the game server to all clients in the reporting radius. Combat data does not have player ownership as it is being generated by the game server and then transmitted in order to update the status of the world state. > > Essentially since the server is running a calculation/simulation based on actions by all the clients in the area, it owns the subsequent reporting of all calculations both literally and legally. > > This is different for situations like chat, where there is no impact or simulation necessary and essentially is a forwarding service that the server is simply handling the reporting of the client action. > > Regional laws change, if at some point change is required, we will revisit it at that time. I would suggest visiting the Guild Wars 2 User Agreement if you are unsure of anything privacy related for Guild Wars 2. > > > > Are you a lawyer and if not is this an official position you have been asked to publish from the legal team? I ask because I wrote an article on this yesterday which has been widely distributed in legal circles and experts on data protection/privacy and there is 100% agreement with my points (from regulators who have commented as well). Any information relating to behaviour of a person (irrespective of where or how that data is generated) is legally classed as personal data under EU law - this is not even a case of stretching interpretation - behavioural data is explicitly written into EU law as qualifying as personal data. Combat data is absolutely generated as a result of a person's behaviour and is therefore, without question, legally defined as personal data. It is not your place to determine what is or what is not personal data - that is a matter established by law, laws which you as a company are obliged to follow or face the penalties provided for not following. Also under the law User Agreements, End User License Agreements, Terms and Conditions etc. are not legally permitted to be used to relay information on privacy and data protection - a specific privacy notice is required - I suggest you have your legal team read the General Data Protection Regulation, because they clearly haven't. So if you are not a lawyer or relaying the information at the request of the legal team, I would respectfully request that you provide me with the official contact information for your legal team so I can discuss this further with them. If you are a lawyer or member of the legal team, please contact me via private message so we can continue discussion on a more formal (and less toxic) basis. I stopped engaging with this thread because frankly the responses were toxic and utterly unqualified to comment, but it is an issue I will be raising in Brussels next week and given the wide agreement from the legal community I will likely file a test case as well at some point in the near future. And to everyone else, no I will not be engaging any further in this thread, so save your fingers and don't bother trying to bait me :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Deihnyx.6318 said: > Its absolutely insane how far people are bringing this non-issue. > Seriously... talking about law and security now... Ye i'm against meters but the law thing was more about someone trying to be a little too clever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Paladine.6082 said: > > @"Chris Cleary.8017" said: > > Since this thread has really exploded, and there seems to be some possible misunderstanding about privacy here, I'll comment. > > > > The current implementation of DPS meters is nothing more than a re-presentation of information already being transmitted by the game server to all clients in the reporting radius. Combat data does not have player ownership as it is being generated by the game server and then transmitted in order to update the status of the world state. > > > > Essentially since the server is running a calculation/simulation based on actions by all the clients in the area, it owns the subsequent reporting of all calculations both literally and legally. > > > > This is different for situations like chat, where there is no impact or simulation necessary and essentially is a forwarding service that the server is simply handling the reporting of the client action. > > > > Regional laws change, if at some point change is required, we will revisit it at that time. I would suggest visiting the Guild Wars 2 User Agreement if you are unsure of anything privacy related for Guild Wars 2. > > > > > > > > > > Are you a lawyer and if not is this an official position you have been asked to publish from the legal team? > > I ask because I wrote an article on this yesterday which has been widely distributed in legal circles and experts on data protection/privacy and there is 100% agreement with my points (from regulators who have commented as well). Any information relating to behaviour of a person (irrespective of where or how that data is generated) is legally classed as personal data under EU law - this is not even a case of stretching interpretation - behavioural data is explicitly written into EU law as qualifying as personal data. Combat data is absolutely generated as a result of a person's behaviour and is therefore, without question, legally defined as personal data. > > It is not your place to determine what is or what is not personal data - that is a matter established by law, laws which you as a company are obliged to follow or face the penalties provided for not following. > > So if you are not a lawyer or relaying the information at the request of the legal team, I would respectfully request that you provide me with their official contact information for your legal team so I can discuss this further with them. If you are a lawyer or member of the legal team, please contact me via private message so we can continue discussion on a more formal (and less toxic) basis. > > I stopped engaging with this thread because frankly the responses were toxic and utterly unqualified to comment, but it is an issue I will be raising in Brussels next week and given the wide agreement from the legal community I will likely file a test case as well at some point in the near future. > > And to everyone else, no I will not be engaging any further in this thread, so save you fingers and don't bother trying to bait me :) yes yes we get it you work with law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Bloodstealer.5978 said: > > @TexZero.7910 said: > > > @Bloodstealer.5978 said: > > > I am thinking you also may be missing Khels point.. its not about the data .. its about allowing a 3rd party application to automatically collect and monitor the players data regardless of whether ANET already have it, require it. No request for consent has ever been put to players, it has just become opensource open use policy and that doesn't sit well. > > > If all the info is readily available in game why is ARC DPS required.. or is it that it can sort through all the data logs and make other players data specifically visible to a wider audience for everyone to see and grief/abuse if they want.. in which case there will always be an argument about its legitimacy imo. > > > > > > Personally I don't give a rats about my DPS.. I am no min maxer, I play the way I want and if others want to kick me cos they can see I am putting out 10dps less than he/she is then great do so and let those numpties play with themselves. I come to GW2 to get away from working life and drama. > > > But ANET changing their policy to allow ARCDPS to run around uncontrolled and without the permiss of others in group to monitor them is bad practice and needs looking at properly imo, but that won't happen we know. > > > > 1) It's not collecting data, it's parsing data there's a difference. It's public data and is readily available to everyone > > 2) It's not required, It's optional and provides the data in a format that's easier to digest and more accurate than the ways you could previously do it. > > 3) The policy never changed. We've always been able to use third party tools and UI's. What changed was the public stance towards them confirming that people will not be banned for using them > > OK sorry.. parse data.. > > The fact is its already data that's been available since day 1.. and you just confirmed why ARCDPS is being used.. so it can sort through individual data and display it in a way that makes each players stick out like a sore thumb .. therefore its nothing more than a glorified griefing tool.. its not required for any other purpose because like we know.. all that data is already there within game... thanks for clearing that up. > So ANET has basically changed there ToS to allow a 3rd party application to used for no other real purpose other than to open up the potential for player griefing... seems a cool idea. > Other MMO's I have played that allow DPS meters actually require both parties to have the software loaded and therefore consent for the sharing of the/display of one another's stats, builds and dps/heals etc.. that kind of policy works far better because its consensual. You guys really like to use hyperbole and strawmans to the fullest dontcha ? Any object being used is only as good as the person(s) using it. ArcDPS is used to parse the combat to see where and if improvements can be made and just generally let people know exactly what if anything went wrong or just allow for some friendly inter-group pushing of who cant stat stick & skill rotation better. But you seem to only look at the negatives of the situation so, i'll ask. What do you do when you see someone type something that offends you in map/guild/whisper chat ? Because chat is the real griefing tool, yet i don't see you asking for that to be removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @TexZero.7910 said: > > @Bloodstealer.5978 said: > > > @TexZero.7910 said: > > > > @Bloodstealer.5978 said: > > > > I am thinking you also may be missing Khels point.. its not about the data .. its about allowing a 3rd party application to automatically collect and monitor the players data regardless of whether ANET already have it, require it. No request for consent has ever been put to players, it has just become opensource open use policy and that doesn't sit well. > > > > If all the info is readily available in game why is ARC DPS required.. or is it that it can sort through all the data logs and make other players data specifically visible to a wider audience for everyone to see and grief/abuse if they want.. in which case there will always be an argument about its legitimacy imo. > > > > > > > > Personally I don't give a rats about my DPS.. I am no min maxer, I play the way I want and if others want to kick me cos they can see I am putting out 10dps less than he/she is then great do so and let those numpties play with themselves. I come to GW2 to get away from working life and drama. > > > > But ANET changing their policy to allow ARCDPS to run around uncontrolled and without the permiss of others in group to monitor them is bad practice and needs looking at properly imo, but that won't happen we know. > > > > > > 1) It's not collecting data, it's parsing data there's a difference. It's public data and is readily available to everyone > > > 2) It's not required, It's optional and provides the data in a format that's easier to digest and more accurate than the ways you could previously do it. > > > 3) The policy never changed. We've always been able to use third party tools and UI's. What changed was the public stance towards them confirming that people will not be banned for using them > > > > OK sorry.. parse data.. > > > > The fact is its already data that's been available since day 1.. and you just confirmed why ARCDPS is being used.. so it can sort through individual data and display it in a way that makes each players stick out like a sore thumb .. therefore its nothing more than a glorified griefing tool.. its not required for any other purpose because like we know.. all that data is already there within game... thanks for clearing that up. > > So ANET has basically changed there ToS to allow a 3rd party application to used for no other real purpose other than to open up the potential for player griefing... seems a cool idea. > > Other MMO's I have played that allow DPS meters actually require both parties to have the software loaded and therefore consent for the sharing of the/display of one another's stats, builds and dps/heals etc.. that kind of policy works far better because its consensual. > > You guys really like to use hyperbole and strawmans to the fullest dontcha ? > > Any object being used is only as good as the person(s) using it. ArcDPS is used to parse the combat to see where and if improvements can be made and just generally let people know exactly what if anything went wrong or just allow for some friendly inter-group pushing of who cant stat stick & skill rotation better. > > But you seem to only look at the negatives of the situation so, i'll ask. What do you do when you see someone type something that offends you in map/guild/whisper chat ? > Because chat is the real griefing tool, yet i don't see you asking for that to be removed. Its about cost/benefit. Map chat is critical for a mmo. A dps meter in a **_non_** competitive arena is not. DPS meters have history, we all know this and its being obtuse pretending there is not (not talking about you here) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @TexZero.7910 said: > > > @Bloodstealer.5978 said: > > > > @TexZero.7910 said: > > > > > @Bloodstealer.5978 said: > > > > > I am thinking you also may be missing Khels point.. its not about the data .. its about allowing a 3rd party application to automatically collect and monitor the players data regardless of whether ANET already have it, require it. No request for consent has ever been put to players, it has just become opensource open use policy and that doesn't sit well. > > > > > If all the info is readily available in game why is ARC DPS required.. or is it that it can sort through all the data logs and make other players data specifically visible to a wider audience for everyone to see and grief/abuse if they want.. in which case there will always be an argument about its legitimacy imo. > > > > > > > > > > Personally I don't give a rats about my DPS.. I am no min maxer, I play the way I want and if others want to kick me cos they can see I am putting out 10dps less than he/she is then great do so and let those numpties play with themselves. I come to GW2 to get away from working life and drama. > > > > > But ANET changing their policy to allow ARCDPS to run around uncontrolled and without the permiss of others in group to monitor them is bad practice and needs looking at properly imo, but that won't happen we know. > > > > > > > > 1) It's not collecting data, it's parsing data there's a difference. It's public data and is readily available to everyone > > > > 2) It's not required, It's optional and provides the data in a format that's easier to digest and more accurate than the ways you could previously do it. > > > > 3) The policy never changed. We've always been able to use third party tools and UI's. What changed was the public stance towards them confirming that people will not be banned for using them > > > > > > OK sorry.. parse data.. > > > > > > The fact is its already data that's been available since day 1.. and you just confirmed why ARCDPS is being used.. so it can sort through individual data and display it in a way that makes each players stick out like a sore thumb .. therefore its nothing more than a glorified griefing tool.. its not required for any other purpose because like we know.. all that data is already there within game... thanks for clearing that up. > > > So ANET has basically changed there ToS to allow a 3rd party application to used for no other real purpose other than to open up the potential for player griefing... seems a cool idea. > > > Other MMO's I have played that allow DPS meters actually require both parties to have the software loaded and therefore consent for the sharing of the/display of one another's stats, builds and dps/heals etc.. that kind of policy works far better because its consensual. > > > > You guys really like to use hyperbole and strawmans to the fullest dontcha ? > > > > Any object being used is only as good as the person(s) using it. ArcDPS is used to parse the combat to see where and if improvements can be made and just generally let people know exactly what if anything went wrong or just allow for some friendly inter-group pushing of who cant stat stick & skill rotation better. > > > > But you seem to only look at the negatives of the situation so, i'll ask. What do you do when you see someone type something that offends you in map/guild/whisper chat ? > > Because chat is the real griefing tool, yet i don't see you asking for that to be removed. > > Its about cost/benefit. Map chat is critical for a mmo. A dps meter in a **_non_** competitive arena is not. DPS meters have history, we all know this and its being obtuse pretending there is not (not talking about you here) Put it another way, if a meter user can see his own stats, and he has a baseline and optimal performance figures from meta results he has no need to measure other people performance in a non competitive arena. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AegisRunestone.8672 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > @Bloodstealer.5978 said: > > > @TexZero.7910 said: > > > > @Bloodstealer.5978 said: > > > > I am thinking you also may be missing Khels point.. its not about the data .. its about allowing a 3rd party application to automatically collect and monitor the players data regardless of whether ANET already have it, require it. No request for consent has ever been put to players, it has just become opensource open use policy and that doesn't sit well. > > > > If all the info is readily available in game why is ARC DPS required.. or is it that it can sort through all the data logs and make other players data specifically visible to a wider audience for everyone to see and grief/abuse if they want.. in which case there will always be an argument about its legitimacy imo. > > > > > > > > Personally I don't give a rats about my DPS.. I am no min maxer, I play the way I want and if others want to kick me cos they can see I am putting out 10dps less than he/she is then great do so and let those numpties play with themselves. I come to GW2 to get away from working life and drama. > > > > But ANET changing their policy to allow ARCDPS to run around uncontrolled and without the permiss of others in group to monitor them is bad practice and needs looking at properly imo, but that won't happen we know. > > > > > > 1) It's not collecting data, it's parsing data there's a difference. It's public data and is readily available to everyone > > > 2) It's not required, It's optional and provides the data in a format that's easier to digest and more accurate than the ways you could previously do it. > > > 3) The policy never changed. We've always been able to use third party tools and UI's. What changed was the public stance towards them confirming that people will not be banned for using them > > > > OK sorry.. parse data.. > > > > The fact is its already data that's been available since day 1.. and you just confirmed why ARCDPS is being used.. so it can sort through individual data and display it in a way that makes each players stick out like a sore thumb .. therefore its nothing more than a glorified griefing tool.. its not required for any other purpose because like we know.. all that data is already there within game... thanks for clearing that up. > > So ANET has basically changed there ToS to allow a 3rd party application to used for no other real purpose other than to open up the potential for player griefing... seems a cool idea. > > Other MMO's I have played that allow DPS meters actually require both parties to have the software loaded and therefore consent for the sharing of the/display of one another's stats, builds and dps/heals etc.. that kind of policy works far better because its consensual. > > You guys really like to use hyperbole and strawmans to the fullest dontcha ? > > Any object being used is only as good as the person(s) using it. ArcDPS is used to parse the combat to see where and if improvements can be made and just generally let people know exactly what if anything went wrong or just allow for some friendly inter-group pushing of who cant stat stick & skill rotation better. > > But you seem to only look at the negatives of the situation so, i'll ask. What do you do when you see someone type something that offends you in map/guild/whisper chat ? > Because chat is the real griefing tool, yet i don't see you asking for that to be removed. Chat...? In chat, you can **block** and **report** griefers. In ArcDPS, you **can't block** a griefer from looking at your DPS and using it as a reason to kick you, **nor can you report** said griefer to the creator of ArcDPS. That was a terrible comparison. People don't ask chat to be removed because it's the primary means of communication in the game, AND it has ways of getting rid of and punishing griefers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > Its about cost/benefit. Map chat is critical for a mmo. A dps meter in a **_non_** competitive arena is not. DPS meters have history, we all know this and its being obtuse pretending there is not (not talking about you here) Well aware, was just pointing out the absurd nature of DPS meters are only griefing tools, when the most open and usable griefing tool (text chat) has the same restrictions on it and actions to take. Report, block, move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joxer.6024 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 You all are missing a very important point. ANET can do whatever they wish with what you do in THEIR GAME, to which you do not pay to play. The data the OP is so worried about is nothing really, and no access to your account can be made in any way. As it has been mentioned, its all data, generated by what we do, in their game, period. I for one don't mind the dps meters as I like to know if I am sucking and where I can improve. Is it abused, of course, but what isn't in this day and age? Come, if it wasn't meters it was your build, or your class. How many Necros got kicked just being a Necro? Or Engi, with no meter involved? So yea, let dead dogs lie guys. I would actually love to see more add-ons in this game, UI and other bits, target frames, etc. I also come from WOW where that stuff is almost, n is, a necessity. But this wont stop for one reason, and its a scary one these days. To many people feel they have the right to complain about ANYTHING. The days of being kind and friendly and just getting on with life are gone sadly. So just pew pew better and as one mentioned.....get gud! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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