Guardian Hammer is useless

[borgs.6103]

> @"Roku.1852" said:

> Lol. Good argument. Very logical reasoning. Its funny because I just watched a video of a hammer guardian doing vale guardian. Hammer is not good though so he probably got luck that him and his group happened to clear it. Its not like with certain traits you can get 100%, yes 100% uptime on protection.

Even in your example it sounds terrible. You already have 100% uptime on protection for **ten people** with the Stone Spirit from Rangers which are almost always in a raid group. But let's say you don't have a ranger in your group _or_ for some reason, Stone Spirit is not taken. Now what? Well.. Guardian's Shield of Judgement gives 4 seconds (8 with 100% BD) plus Aegis and you don't have to be static in a symbol, which the Hammer would force you to.

 

Then there's also this Renegade trait called _All for One_ which also applies 4 seconds of Protections (7.2 seconds with the standard Renegade 80% BD) to anyone affected by the Summoned Warband abilities. So with three Warband summons that can affect allies, (the Heal, Razorclaw's Edge and the Elite) that's 21.6 seconds of Protection every legend swap. Combine that with the Shield of Judgement, it's more than 100% protection uptime to your subgroup.

 

But wait, what if you don't have a Ranger or a Renegade in your raid group? Would that warrant a Hammer Guardian just for protection? Well... hopefully your raid group has at least a Chronomancer in there. Echo of Memory + Deja Vu = 5 seconds of Protection (10 seconds with 100% BD) x2 with Continuum Split then +9 seconds with Signet of Inspiration (x2 from CS + Mimic).

 

See that? Without even trying or going off-meta, you can already provide permanent protection with no need for that terrible Guardian Hammer.

 

TL;DR - Justifying using Hammer on Guardians for Permanent Protection is terrible and Hammer for Guardians is a terrible weapon. Unless it's for the memes, then more power to you! I would love nothing more than to be proven wrong. I loved Hammer Guardians back then.

[Aspen Tie.5084]

I play power core medi guard in wvw (hammer - sword/shield). It is very strong at roaming and a good duelist. In zerg play, meta be damned, it's not rare for me to top dmg in a 30+ man raid. Glacial blow offers strong spike dmg and it generates downs. I like hammer and I make it work. No gripes on my part.

[Ogwom.7940]

@"Roku.1852"

1) People used to use hammer guardian in raids but then they got nerfed in some places which lowered their overall use in raids since their long term DPS is way worse than a lot of the other guardian weapons.

 

2) Scepter doesn't need mobility, since it has range (short, but still range), and a range soft CC (immobilize).

 

3) You can find many other skills that you don't need to wait until the end of slow auto attack chain to get sustain from. I would rather precast sustain or be able to pop it on within seconds when I need.

 

4) It has such boring skills which are difficult and clunky to execute.

 

5) It looks fun in WvW for roaming, but I usually can kill hammer guardians so fast, even if they sneak attack on me, since I actually use skills that can insta-pop stability, barrier and etc.

 

 

Edit: Slightly reworded a part of point 3, to make it easier to read and understand.

[Virtuality.8351]

This is adapted from the proposal I made last year:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/84508/in-depth-suggestions-on-how-to-bring-guardian-hammer-back-to-life

 

Weapon Skills 1 to 5

 

1. **Symbol of Protection** (end of the auto chain)

Reduce the cast time from 1.25 s to 0.75 s to reduce the unwieldiness.

2. **Mighty Blow** & **Glacial Blow** (if the trait Glacial Heart is active)

Mighty BLow: Increase the movement range from 300 to 360.

Glacial Blow (traited with Glacial Heart): Increase the movement range from 300 to 360. Reduce the recharge time from 6 s to 5 s and increase the skill coefficient from 2.1 to 2.55 to stay on par with Mighty Blow in terms of damage potential over time, or alternatively, increase the skill coefficient from 2.1 to 3 with the recharge time remaining unchanged.

3. **Zealot's Embrace**

Instead of sending a piercing projectile, the skill now creates a 'wave' (as in the skill description) point blank sector of 90 degree and 600 range (similar to Shackling Wave). The rest remains unchanged.

The excess range of the projectile we have at this moment is a bit pointless in my opinion, for that the projectile is easy to dodge for opponents at range, and even if it successfully hits and traps the target, it is still difficult for Guardian to exploit the 2 s immobilization anyway due to lack of mobility.

On the other hand, the ability to immobilize multiple opponents in front of you within medium to close range in order to then deliver a Might/Glacial Blow or to Banish, as recommended here, just seems to provide much better synergy.

4. **Banish**

Increase the power coefficient from 1.0 to 1.6 in PvE. Increase the number of targets to 3.

5. **Ring of Warding**

In addition to its current effect, the field now also pulses blindness for 1 s with an interval of 1 s. Increase the radius from 180 to 240. Reduce the recharge time from 30 s to 25 s.

 

Or alternatively,

 

1. **Symbol of Protection** is replaced with another skill that uses the same animation but with a shorter cast time. The new skill is a single time point-blank area of effect that hits 5 targets around the player character for 240 radius.

2. **Mighty Blow** & **Glacial Blow** now creates **Symbol of Protection** upon impact.

3. As above.

4. As above.

5. As above.

 

With this proposal, the skill chain #3, #5 and then #2 would be of great synergy.

[otto.5684]

> @"Roku.1852" said:

> Lol. Good argument. Very logical reasoning. Its funny because I just watched a video of a hammer guardian doing vale guardian. Hammer is not good though so he probably got luck that him and his group happened to clear it. Its not like with certain traits you can get 100%, yes 100% uptime on protection.

 

It is clear you do not even know the basics. I am not going to waste my time explaining why hammer does not work, since there like 50 million threads in guardian forums that cover that. And if you played hammer for 10-15 minutes it is easy to see why. Play GS. If you ever use hammer instead of GS, in any game mode, know that you made a terrible mistake.

 

And no one gives a shit that you can provide 100% protection in a tiny symbol. Both Druid’s, renegade and FB support can do that at range in AOE.

 

@"Aspen Tie.5084" I am not very WvW savvy. On the sPvP side hammer is hilariously bad. GS is better but not by much. Power core guardian of old is dead. It has been for a very long time. Actually, not a single power guardian option is currently above C tier in sPvP.

[Black Bandit.9425]

Listen I've been playing this game since release and even before the game came out I was like " that's so cool I can play hammer in an MMO and it would be completely viable" . Man was I wrong , but I loved the weapon anyways and I've tried to make it work, but it seriously doesn't. Core Guardian has its issues already, but compound that with hammer and Guard really struggles. I'd like someone to look me in the eye and tell me that hammer is viable at all. There's only 3 skills that do any damage, as well as a really slow swinging AA, that does exactly the same damage as a greatsword, wtf? In addition the ring of warding is so telegraphed and avoidable its laughable, otherwise whats the point of a circular ward if no one gets caught in it...ever . Banish is cool and I've stopped a bunch of revives, but that's it...that's all it does... IT LITERALLY DOES 9 DAMAGE IN PVP! Redundant protection cant be all that hammer offers, man I really want to love playing my guardian with hammer again. All I'm asking is for either some traits that proc quickness cuz its waaaaaaay too slow, or a rework because its not fun anymore.

[Thornwolf.9721]

> @"Ogwom.7940" said:

> There is no game mode that I use hammer on my guardian because there seems to be no use for it.

> It doesn't feel rewarding to play.

> I would hope they could address it one day.

>

> What are your thoughts?

 

Hammer in general is useless, unless its a scrapper using it.

[Thornwolf.9721]

> @"Roku.1852" said:

> > @"Mikhael.2391" said:

> >

> >

> > I have not played since christmas but heres my gameplay with hammer. Try it in wvw

>

> That combo at 7:10 was absolutely awesome. See this is a prime example of how the hammer is op. well done

 

This video was made before the infamous balance patch in feb of this year. I highly doubt hammer is even as strong as this, or anywhere close. Hammer in general is a poopy weapon; It has been since that patch. For warrior, guardian, revenant and so on. Can they be used? Yea. Do they have the impact or even strength remotely close to where they had been? Heck no.

[Mikhael.2391]

> @"Thornwolf.9721" said:

> > @"Roku.1852" said:

> > > @"Mikhael.2391" said:

> > >

> > >

> > > I have not played since christmas but heres my gameplay with hammer. Try it in wvw

> >

> > That combo at 7:10 was absolutely awesome. See this is a prime example of how the hammer is op. well done

>

> This video was made before the infamous balance patch in feb of this year. I highly doubt hammer is even as strong as this, or anywhere close. Hammer in general is a poopy weapon; It has been since that patch. For warrior, guardian, revenant and so on. Can they be used? Yea. Do they have the impact or even strength remotely close to where they had been? Heck no.

 

yes, it was before the damage nerf. It was "perfectly balanced" regarding high risk high reward build as running away was pretty much not possible after engaging. unnlike thief or other high mobility class with same burst damage .

[Svarty.8019]

> @"Ogwom.7940" said:

> There is no game mode that I use hammer on my guardian because there seems to be no use for it.

> It doesn't feel rewarding to play.

> I would hope they could address it one day.

>

> What are your thoughts?

 

Hammer is crap, not useless.

 

Jokes aside, Anet abandoned most weapons as soon as they launched the game and never went back to them. /shrug. That's just teh way it is.

 

> @"Roku.1852" said:

> > @"Mikhael.2391" said:

> >

> >

> > I have not played since christmas but heres my gameplay with hammer. Try it in wvw

>

> That combo at 7:10 was absolutely awesome. See this is a prime example of how the hammer is op. well done

 

How on earth do you do that? I never get anything good to happen no matter how hard I try.

 

I guess these are massive flukes that occur once in a zillion tries, but because the person has recorded EVERYTHING, they can make a compilation of them. Either that or there are mouse-macros at play. Or both.

 

I can only believe the combat system is abysmal, despite the protestations of many fellow players.

[RedCobra.7693]

its still fun to play golf with it though right? use it in eotm

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

Ive fought some hammer guards and it was an interesting fight. Something you dont see everyday and they werent bad.

[Aeolus.3615]

U guys think if Anet creates some trait that makes Guardian gain damage or something else when gain a protection for their weapon, hammer would be in better form?

> @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> Ive fought some hammer guards and it was an interesting fight. Something you dont see everyday and they werent bad.

 

Medi Hammer guards??

[otto.5684]

> @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> U guys think if Anet creates some trait that makes Guardian gain damage or something else when gain a protection for their weapon, hammer would be in better form?

> > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> > Ive fought some hammer guards and it was an interesting fight. Something you dont see everyday and they werent bad.

>

> Medi Hammer guards??

 

No. The problem with hammer is hammer itself. No change in traits would matter at all. In fact they will work better with another weapon, like glacial heart benefiting primarily axe and LB (pre Feb nerfs at least).

[Aeolus.3615]

> @"otto.5684" said:

> > @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > U guys think if Anet creates some trait that makes Guardian gain damage or something else when gain a protection for their weapon, hammer would be in better form?

> > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> > > Ive fought some hammer guards and it was an interesting fight. Something you dont see everyday and they werent bad.

> >

> > Medi Hammer guards??

>

> No. The problem with hammer is hammer itself. No change in traits would matter at all. In fact they will work better with another weapon, like glacial heart benefiting primarily axe and LB (pre Feb nerfs at least).

 

For that Anet would have to adap of be a bit creative on what to do with hammer stuff... Hammer issue then is simple the outdated combad it does :\ it isnt a help not it isnt a counter to something.... letstry to make it a counter to something then... like we had in gw1 and stay on theme to the lore.

 

Let me go crazy and try hammer changes aka Gw1 style a bit:

 

Return Holy damage to the Gw: extra damage to undead and sumoned creatures and shadow forms(necros 2nd lifes), if atached to a player the next 1 sec, juddge your enemy, next burn tick will double tic.

 

Hammer AA: keep as it is

Mighty Blow, keep as it is, add if target is cripled targets get KD.

Zealot's Embrace: Blue fire rain that CC anemies players with stability will get cripled, removes chill from alies.

Banish: Becomes a dash 600 range, dash toward your target and launch your enemy, if its a summoned creatures, will leave a aoe blue fire explosion damage and aplying Holy damage for the next 1sec on the afected target by the explosion.

Ring of Warding: Line drawed is now imbued with holy fire, alies inside become imune to burning for the nest 2sec. and CC target inside or outer, player in touch or stoped by LoWrd will suffer the 1 sec holy damage jujdjement.

 

Glacial Blow, Become a +% damage on targets that are chilled and KD targets that are cripled, absorb chill from alies arround caster empowering the skill, frozing selected nemy for 1 sec similiar to jade winds shiro elite but towards single player effect.

 

This m8 be in pair with the next burn guard elite ;x

 

Note: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Holy_damage

[Aspen Tie.5084]

Hammer is high skill cap and hard to master; one can not just 'drop the hammer'. Simply trying it out will leave most players discouraged. As a result, posts like this pop up. The truth of the matter is, if played correctly, hammer can be competitive. However, because it does not net instant meta defining results it is cast to the wayside.

[Kichwas.7152]

I've often used Hammer on guardian , warrior, and revenant in open world and other solo content because well...

 

It has the best sounds and animations in the game. On all 3 of those. In fact the one class where hammer is good; engineer, is also the one that lacks this cool sound/animation factor... :anguished:

 

When I pull out Hammer on my warrior or my Guardian the sound effects and animations make it feel like you should own the world, when in reality my Charr warrior is like a crazy catlady granny chasing you down with a plastic broom, while my human guardian is the old lady following behind waving her walking stick at you. /sigh...

 

It would be nice if it was up to par with other weapons on the numbers so I could enjoy it in group content without feeling like I'm getting a carry.

 

[Math.5123]

> @"otto.5684" said:

> > @"Roku.1852" said:

> > Lol. Good argument. Very logical reasoning. Its funny because I just watched a video of a hammer guardian doing vale guardian. Hammer is not good though so he probably got luck that him and his group happened to clear it. Its not like with certain traits you can get 100%, yes 100% uptime on protection.

>

> It is clear you do not even know the basics. I am not going to waste my time explaining why hammer does not work, since there like 50 million threads in guardian forums that cover that. And if you played hammer for 10-15 minutes it is easy to see why. Play GS. If you ever use hammer instead of GS, in any game mode, know that you made a terrible mistake.

>

> And no one gives a kitten that you can provide 100% protection in a tiny symbol. Both Druid’s, renegade and FB support can do that at range in AOE.

>

> @"Aspen Tie.5084" I am not very WvW savvy. On the sPvP side hammer is hilariously bad. GS is better but not by much. Power core guardian of old is dead. It has been for a very long time. Actually, not a single power guardian option is currently above C tier in sPvP.

 

I'm currently rank 11 on eu playing zerk guard. There's another zerk guard around top 25

[aspirine.6852]

> @"Aspen Tie.5084" said:

> Hammer is high skill cap and hard to master; one can not just 'drop the hammer'. Simply trying it out will leave most players discouraged. As a result, posts like this pop up. The truth of the matter is, if played correctly, hammer can be competitive. However, because it does not net instant meta defining results it is cast to the wayside.

 

It could be a bit faster though. And with a bit I mean a lot..

[Fipmip.7219]

there's so much cool stuff you could do with hammer. About midway through my GW2 career I made a warrior priest style guardian, thinking I'd go the 'hammer wielding holy fire' route. only to find hammer was little more than a roleplay weapon while you just spammed tome of justice as much as possible. About a year or so ago I suggested hammer be the condi version of greatsword, offering big AoE condition damage. another suggestion would be to lean into the symbol side of guardian, making it the only weapon with multiple ways of placing long lasting defensive symbols like prot and stab, and making it best for symbol traits. a third option would be to buff its CC capabilities, making it better at controlling groups of enemy players, dazing and launching multiple at a time and cementing it as a support weapon.

[Black Bandit.9425]

Hammer is awfully slow and damage output is alright at best...GS has way more utility and damage in my opinion. Either a rework is in order or a couple of tweaks to speed.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Ogwom.7940" said:

> There is no game mode that I use hammer on my guardian because there seems to be no use for it.

> It doesn't feel rewarding to play.

> I would hope they could address it one day.

>

> What are your thoughts?

 

I think if it doesn't work for you, don't use it. There are people that don't have a problem using hammer though. It's not great for lots of reasons, but those reasons aren't good ones to change it.

[Ogwom.7940]

@"Obtena.7952"

My comment that you quoted does not have any in depth reasons, only my expression of how I feel as well as observations from the most played builds.

You could have looked at any of the other comments, but you chose the one that didn't list any actual reasons.

 

I would love to use hammer, that's the point. It is an undesirable weapon compared to other options that can easily out compete it.

I obviously am not using hammer on guard because it obviously doesn't work for me, hence the post.

I main guardian, and have been playing since launch of Vanilla game and would always try to use hammer in any situations I could get, but it just felt boring.

I made juggernaut many years ago, in hopes for hammer to be good on guardian, but it never ended up happening.

 

A person can be as good as they want on hammer guard in a PvP setting, but I can always out maneuver and counter them.

In PvE, it just is no where in comparison to other weapon options.

It's clunky, has animation locks, slow, not great dps, odd boon uptime (you can easily get prot within 1 second of casting any other type of skill compared to the length of the skill #1 attack chain).

 

You tell me, what exactly aren't "good reasons" and what are?

[Obtena.7952]

You've decided performance is an important criteria to you ... others don't. Just because it doesn't perform the way you want it to so it's a strong choice in your criteria doesn't mean that's a good reason to change it. If you want hammer to be a choice for you in PVE ... change your thinking about how you play the game. You're going to dismiss that anyways ... but it's true because in this game there is a range of performance and that means something is the best ... that also means something is the worst. It's not a reason to buff something. It's just a consequence of the choices we have available to us.

 

See, you don't use a hammer because it doesn't work for you ... and that's OK ... but it's not a problem that needs to be fixed.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> You've decided performance is an important criteria to you ... others don't. Just because it doesn't perform the way you want it to so it's a strong choice in your criteria doesn't mean that's a good reason to change it. If you want hammer to be a choice for you in PVE ... change your thinking about how you play the game. You're going to dismiss that anyways ... but it's true because in this game there is a range of performance and that means something is the best ... that also means something is the worst. It's not a reason to buff something. It's just a consequence of the choices we have available to us.

>

> See, you don't use a hammer because it doesn't work for you ... and that's OK ... but it's not a problem that needs to be fixed.

 

jesus i wonder if you ever have moments when you hear yourself.