Panda.1967 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 > @castlemanic.3198 said: > It's funny the number of people who perceive the mere *existence* of the LGBT community in video games as "political" stuff that's "shoved down their throats" and they want removed. > > Their mere existence. Let that sink in. > > Nothing in the game is "over-sexualised" in terms of story presentation, yet people use that argument when the LGBT community merely exists within the game. Nothing is shoved down our throats, not even the kasmeer/marjory relationship. I 100% believe that the vast majority of the complaints about their relationship would cease to exist if they were a straight couple, because most complaints have to do with their relationship being "shoved down our throats". The poor writing involving their relationship and how they're better characters when apart has nothing to do with their sexuality and everything to do with the writer's capability of portraying characters well (I think the writing is fine, but I have low standards and I know it). > > The number of people getting up in arms about the LGBT community merely *existing* within GW2 (or any media portrayal) is astounding. You can provide legitimate criticism on their implementation (because we seriously do not need 'token lgbt stereotypes'), but criticizing their mere existence as *political* is something that should really make you stop in your tracks and think "why do I have an issue with this?" And they wonder why we get so defensive when they make an argument like that... How would someone react if I were to say "I don't want straight couple relationships shoved down my throat in media"? I guarantee their reaction would be the exact same as mine as a lesbian when someone gives the argument of "I don't want gay/lesbian couple relationships shoved down my throat in media". ArenaNet set out to make the world of Tyria feel like a believable living world. In order to do so, relationships must exist within the world, some more prevalent than others. Characters in a living story are also far less interesting if there isn't any notion of relationships between any of them. It's simply a factor of good storytelling. The story in MMOs are more than just Action/Adventure stories, they also have must have elements of Slice of Life in order to keep the world alive and interesting. Creating relationships also gives reason for characters to react more passionately in certain events than others. Creating a good believable living world involves more than just saying "these families exist, thus implied straight relationships here, and these individuals exist with unknown relationship statuses that could be anything" you must include signs of more questionable relationships and activities. No one would argue that black market dealers and drugs are bad, but their presence within the game world adds to the atmosphere and the believability of the world. Despite how some people may feel, the presence of LGBT characters also add to the atmosphere and the believability of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 > @Malediktus.9250 said: > > @Cirrion.8951 said: > > > @Malediktus.9250 said: > > > Problems the majority of the world does not care about. Anet needs to stop implementing politics in every corner of the game. > > > > They didn't. They implemented a heart quest where one of the possible activities is to match up characters romantically. Some of those pairings can be same-gender. That's it. If someone sees this as being political or having some agenda 'rammed down your throat' (funny how they always use that exact phrase...) then the problem is with them, not the game. > Let me think: helping refugees, helping deserters, mexican colored infusion (aka Anti Trump infusion), a larger quantity (percentage wise) of LGBT NPCs than you can find in real life etc. I fail to see how this is not political. It is a MMO and I just want to kill stuff not help useless NPCs or care about LGBT preferences or stuff like that. And it is not just me who noticed it, I talked to friends about this and they see this too. This is only political if you make it so. Elona existed before Trump, refugees and mexican memes. You should remember 90s children tv shows with moralizing clips right before credits. That was pushing agenda. ArenaNet creates Tyria without telling you how to think about this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oglaf.1074 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 > @Malediktus.9250 said: > > @Cirrion.8951 said: > > > @Malediktus.9250 said: > > > Problems the majority of the world does not care about. Anet needs to stop implementing politics in every corner of the game. > > > > They didn't. They implemented a heart quest where one of the possible activities is to match up characters romantically. Some of those pairings can be same-gender. That's it. If someone sees this as being political or having some agenda 'rammed down your throat' (funny how they always use that exact phrase...) then the problem is with them, not the game. > Let me think: helping refugees, helping deserters, mexican colored infusion (aka Anti Trump infusion), a larger quantity (percentage wise) of LGBT NPCs than you can find in real life etc. I fail to see how this is not political. It is a MMO and I just want to kill stuff not help useless NPCs or care about LGBT preferences or stuff like that. And it is not just me who noticed it, I talked to friends about this and they see this too. Helping refugees displaced my the Big Bad has been a core staple since launch. Makes me wonder why you didn't care when we were helping Quaggans flee from Jormag, but you do care when we are helping Elonians flee Balthazar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
castlemanic.3198 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 > @Oglaf.1074 said: > > @castlemanic.3198 said: > > 100% believe that the vast majority of the complaints about their relationship would cease to exist if they were a straight couple, because most complaints have to do with their relationship being "shoved down our throats". > > Yeah no > > > @Oglaf.1074 said: > > > > Jory and Kasmeer are like 99% stock/generic lesbian couple, 1% interesting characters. Ugh. > > > > That is why they are far more better characters when apart from one another. > > > > Which is really just down to poor writing in the end, honestly. Nothing to do with their orientation - if a straight couple were likewise just definied solely by their shared romantic relationship, they'd be terrible characters as well. > > "Vast majority" does not mean "every". If you also bothered to quote the rest of my post, you'd find the following: > @castlemanic.3198 said: > **The poor writing involving their relationship and how they're better characters when apart has nothing to do with their sexuality and everything to do with the writer's capability of portraying characters well**. > > You can provide legitimate criticism on their implementation **(because we seriously do not need 'token lgbt stereotypes')** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashantara.8731 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 > @castlemanic.3198 said: > It's funny the number of people who perceive the mere *existence* of the LGBT community in video games as "political" stuff that's "shoved down their throats" and they want removed. > > Their mere existence. Let that sink in. > > Nothing in the game is "over-sexualised" in terms of story presentation, yet people use that argument when the LGBT community merely exists within the game. Nothing is shoved down our throats, not even the kasmeer/marjory relationship. I 100% believe that the vast majority of the complaints about their relationship would cease to exist if they were a straight couple, because most complaints have to do with their relationship being "shoved down our throats". The poor writing involving their relationship and how they're better characters when apart has nothing to do with their sexuality and everything to do with the writer's capability of portraying characters well (I think the writing is fine, but I have low standards and I know it). > > The number of people getting up in arms about the LGBT community merely *existing* within GW2 (or any media portrayal) is astounding. You can provide legitimate criticism on their implementation (because we seriously do not need 'token lgbt stereotypes'), but criticizing their mere existence as *political* is something that should really make you stop in your tracks and think "why do I have an issue with this?" This was so well written that I had to quote it. And as a member of the LGBT community, I also wanted to thank you - and everyone else who wrote similar responses - for your realistic analysis of the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oglaf.1074 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 > @castlemanic.3198 said: > > @Oglaf.1074 said: > > > @castlemanic.3198 said: > > > 100% believe that the vast majority of the complaints about their relationship would cease to exist if they were a straight couple, because most complaints have to do with their relationship being "shoved down our throats". > > > > Yeah no > > > > > @Oglaf.1074 said: > > > > > > Jory and Kasmeer are like 99% stock/generic lesbian couple, 1% interesting characters. Ugh. > > > > > > That is why they are far more better characters when apart from one another. > > > > > > Which is really just down to poor writing in the end, honestly. Nothing to do with their orientation - if a straight couple were likewise just definied solely by their shared romantic relationship, they'd be terrible characters as well. > > > > > > "Vast majority" does not mean "every". If you also bothered to quote the rest of my post, you'd find the following: > > > @castlemanic.3198 said: > > **The poor writing involving their relationship and how they're better characters when apart has nothing to do with their sexuality and everything to do with the writer's capability of portraying characters well**. > > > > You can provide legitimate criticism on their implementation **(because we seriously do not need 'token lgbt stereotypes')** > You said 100% of the complaints, bruvh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoseofGilead.8907 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 > @Malediktus.9250 said: > > @Cirrion.8951 said: > > > @Malediktus.9250 said: > > > Problems the majority of the world does not care about. Anet needs to stop implementing politics in every corner of the game. > > > > They didn't. They implemented a heart quest where one of the possible activities is to match up characters romantically. Some of those pairings can be same-gender. That's it. If someone sees this as being political or having some agenda 'rammed down your throat' (funny how they always use that exact phrase...) then the problem is with them, not the game. > Let me think: helping refugees, helping deserters, mexican colored infusion (aka Anti Trump infusion), a larger quantity (percentage wise) of LGBT NPCs than you can find in real life etc. I fail to see how this is not political. It is a MMO and I just want to kill stuff not help useless NPCs or care about LGBT preferences or stuff like that. And it is not just me who noticed it, I talked to friends about this and they see this too. Yeah, helping refugees fleeing a dangerous area has never happened in any other game before now, and so it's obvious that Anet is getting political here. Totally. And I wasn't aware that confetti was a "mexican color"; I guess we've learned something new here today. /s Since launch DR has been filled with refugees fleeing the areas taken over by centaurs or Ascalonian refugees fleeing the fighting in their homeland. In GW1 we also helped people fleeing various bad areas. Also, there's nothing in the game forcing you to care about "LGBT preferences"; it's there as background flare to give some characters some sort of story. There are heterosexual characters and characters whose relationships are never mentioned, as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
castlemanic.3198 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 > @Oglaf.1074 said: > You said 100% of the complaints, bruvh. No I didn't, **it's in your quote**. > I 100% believe that the vast majority of the complaints about their relationship would cease to exist if they were a straight couple, because most complaints have to do with their relationship being "shoved down our throats". Let me highlight it for you. > **I 100% believe that the vast majority of the complaints** about their relationship would cease to exist if they were a straight couple, because most complaints have to do with their relationship being "shoved down our throats". I 100% believe that **the vast majority of the complaints**. I never at any point, in any post, said 100% of the complaints would cease to exist. I said **I 100% believe** that the **vast majority of the complaints** would cease to exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nosleepdemon.1368 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 > @Ashantara.8731 said: > > @castlemanic.3198 said: > > It's funny the number of people who perceive the mere *existence* of the LGBT community in video games as "political" stuff that's "shoved down their throats" and they want removed. > > > > Their mere existence. Let that sink in. > > > > Nothing in the game is "over-sexualised" in terms of story presentation, yet people use that argument when the LGBT community merely exists within the game. Nothing is shoved down our throats, not even the kasmeer/marjory relationship. I 100% believe that the vast majority of the complaints about their relationship would cease to exist if they were a straight couple, because most complaints have to do with their relationship being "shoved down our throats". The poor writing involving their relationship and how they're better characters when apart has nothing to do with their sexuality and everything to do with the writer's capability of portraying characters well (I think the writing is fine, but I have low standards and I know it). > > > > The number of people getting up in arms about the LGBT community merely *existing* within GW2 (or any media portrayal) is astounding. You can provide legitimate criticism on their implementation (because we seriously do not need 'token lgbt stereotypes'), but criticizing their mere existence as *political* is something that should really make you stop in your tracks and think "why do I have an issue with this?" > > This was so well written that I had to quote it. > > And as a member of the LGBT community, I also wanted to thank you - and everyone else who wrote similar responses - for your realistic analysis of the situation. (Edit) I am addressing the person this quote is quoting (castlemania.3198), but the quote system seems to have messed up. Sorry! (/edit) You are getting a wee bit ahead of yourself here. The criticism may not be that they exist so much as that they seem so forced. This may well just be due to poor writing. For example, I entered Vabbi and an NPC immediately wanted my attention, so I spoke to her. She explained that I cannot just enter the realm and save Jokos followers, because although Joko is a tyrant, his followers revere him. Now by itself, this is a poignant analysis of the North Korea crisis, however the way it was told was absolutely awful. The player is required to play the role of the aggressor by always choosing aggressive conversation options. Options like "but I want to crush Joko" and "His followers are brainwashed and it's my duty to educate them, with force!". *This* is what players take exception to - the "agenda", so to speak, is literally rammed down their throats by piss-poor and frankly borderline juvenile writing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cirrion.8951 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 > @Malediktus.9250 said: > > @Cirrion.8951 said: > > > @Malediktus.9250 said: > > > Problems the majority of the world does not care about. Anet needs to stop implementing politics in every corner of the game. > > > > They didn't. They implemented a heart quest where one of the possible activities is to match up characters romantically. Some of those pairings can be same-gender. That's it. If someone sees this as being political or having some agenda 'rammed down your throat' (funny how they always use that exact phrase...) then the problem is with them, not the game. > Let me think: helping refugees, helping deserters, mexican colored infusion (aka Anti Trump infusion), a larger quantity (percentage wise) of LGBT NPCs than you can find in real life etc. I fail to see how this is not political. It is a MMO and I just want to kill stuff not help useless NPCs or care about LGBT preferences or stuff like that. And it is not just me who noticed it, I talked to friends about this and they see this too. If someone sees those things as being overtly political then they're likely the type who looks for things to be offended by, and in my experience, those types always find what they're looking for. If games couldn't include anything that might offend some random snowflake we'd all still be playing pong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paintpixie.7398 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 > @Malediktus.9250 said: > > @Cirrion.8951 said: > > > @Malediktus.9250 said: > > > Problems the majority of the world does not care about. Anet needs to stop implementing politics in every corner of the game. > > > > They didn't. They implemented a heart quest where one of the possible activities is to match up characters romantically. Some of those pairings can be same-gender. That's it. If someone sees this as being political or having some agenda 'rammed down your throat' (funny how they always use that exact phrase...) then the problem is with them, not the game. > Let me think: helping refugees, helping deserters, mexican colored infusion (aka Anti Trump infusion), a larger quantity (percentage wise) of LGBT NPCs than you can find in real life etc. I fail to see how this is not political. It is a MMO and I just want to kill stuff not help useless NPCs or care about LGBT preferences or stuff like that. And it is not just me who noticed it, I talked to friends about this and they see this too. Oh come on. This is just getting silly now. Doesn't anybody remember the Flame/Frost refugees? https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Refugee_Volunteer Don't complain about politics being brought into things if you're the one bringing it. Just because things are a bit topsy-turvy out there in the real world, doesn't mean that games should steer clear of anything but the most mundane of topics just to give you a soft pillow to land on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
castlemanic.3198 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 > @nosleepdemon.1368 said: > (Edit) I am addressing the person this quote is quoting (castlemania.3198), but the quote system seems to have messed up. Sorry! (/edit) > > You are getting a wee bit ahead of yourself here. The criticism may not be that they exist so much as that they seem so forced. > > This may well just be due to poor writing. > > For example, I entered Vabbi and an NPC immediately wanted my attention, so I spoke to her. She explained that I cannot just enter the realm and save Jokos followers, because although Joko is a tyrant, his followers revere him. > > Now by itself, this is a poignant analysis of the North Korea crisis, however the way it was told was absolutely awful. > > The player is required to play the role of the aggressor by always choosing aggressive conversation options. Options like "but I want to crush Joko" and "His followers are brainwashed and it's my duty to educate them, with force!". > > *This* is what players take exception to - the "agenda", so to speak, is literally rammed down their throats by kitten-poor and frankly borderline juvenile writing. So this heart where npcs are randomly chosen to be interested in other npcs is politics rammed down our throats? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 > @castlemanic.3198 said: > > @nosleepdemon.1368 said: > > (Edit) I am addressing the person this quote is quoting (castlemania.3198), but the quote system seems to have messed up. Sorry! (/edit) > > > > You are getting a wee bit ahead of yourself here. The criticism may not be that they exist so much as that they seem so forced. > > > > This may well just be due to poor writing. > > > > For example, I entered Vabbi and an NPC immediately wanted my attention, so I spoke to her. She explained that I cannot just enter the realm and save Jokos followers, because although Joko is a tyrant, his followers revere him. > > > > Now by itself, this is a poignant analysis of the North Korea crisis, however the way it was told was absolutely awful. > > > > The player is required to play the role of the aggressor by always choosing aggressive conversation options. Options like "but I want to crush Joko" and "His followers are brainwashed and it's my duty to educate them, with force!". > > > > *This* is what players take exception to - the "agenda", so to speak, is literally rammed down their throats by kitten-poor and frankly borderline juvenile writing. > > So this heart where npcs are randomly chosen to be interested in other npcs is politics rammed down our throats? Some people see politics _everywhere_. Even in places where noone put anything intentionally political at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nosleepdemon.1368 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 > @castlemanic.3198 said: > > @nosleepdemon.1368 said: > > (Edit) I am addressing the person this quote is quoting (castlemania.3198), but the quote system seems to have messed up. Sorry! (/edit) > > > > You are getting a wee bit ahead of yourself here. The criticism may not be that they exist so much as that they seem so forced. > > > > This may well just be due to poor writing. > > > > For example, I entered Vabbi and an NPC immediately wanted my attention, so I spoke to her. She explained that I cannot just enter the realm and save Jokos followers, because although Joko is a tyrant, his followers revere him. > > > > Now by itself, this is a poignant analysis of the North Korea crisis, however the way it was told was absolutely awful. > > > > The player is required to play the role of the aggressor by always choosing aggressive conversation options. Options like "but I want to crush Joko" and "His followers are brainwashed and it's my duty to educate them, with force!". > > > > *This* is what players take exception to - the "agenda", so to speak, is literally rammed down their throats by kitten-poor and frankly borderline juvenile writing. > > So this heart where npcs are randomly chosen to be interested in other npcs is politics rammed down our throats? That depends; people tend to be excellent at collapsing complex situations into black and white scenarios. Obviously the OP was already looking for something "political" to take exception to. Whether or not that is because of some pre-existing "agenda" set out in a heavy handed way by the developers or pre-existing "bad think" by the OP is up for debate. I think it is at least in part due to the rather childish writing. Perhaps this is just a symptom of MMOs in general, I can't remember ever playing an MMO with a good story. Conan 1-20 perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrdeye.1028 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 > @cptaylor.2670 said: > > @thrdeye.1028 said: > > > @Cirrion.8951 said: > > > > @thrdeye.1028 said: > > > > > > > Nearly everyone is fine with gays simply existing. > > > > > > Sadly that is not even close to being true. > > > > > > > Maybe in the Middle East or other backwards regions it's not true, but in Western countries (where GW2 is likely to be played) people who can't accept the existence of gays are uncommon and generally reviled. Even the traditionally gay bashing religious groups have adopted a live and let live approach. They still believe it's a sin, but the sins are between the sinner and God and they just prefer not to have it rammed down their throats. > > > Your existence being tolerated and your differences being accepted are completely different. The point is to get to a place where that difference is a non-issue, and despite the fact that this doesn't pertain to you personally it is still risky. People still stare if you hold hands with someone of the same sex walking down the street or shout kitten out the window as they're driving by. Sure, progress has been made and the chances of being lured into an alley somewhere and beaten to death with a baseball bat have diminished, but it's still a possibility. But I guess we should celebrate the fact that our existence is tolerated and be thankful that some people have the sense to keep their opinions to themselves. It doesn't matter that questioning youth is still exposed to prejudice in smaller doses and develop psychological and emotional trauma forever effecting who they are or will become as an individual in society. > > I'm white and black people aren't being lynched or forced to drink from separate water fountains anymore so obviously racism doesn't exist anymore. So glad we're past that too. Some people will always stare at what's unusual. There will always be assholes who loudly insult strangers in public. Murderers will always exist, and there will always be the possibility of encountering one. But as I already stated, these people are few and far between and the general public opinion would be in support of the gays in these situations. My entire point in this thread was that if you want to minimize those occurrences these ridiculous witch hunts are the wrong way to go about it. Normal people are not going to respond positively to being called bigots for failing to virtue signal hard enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
castlemanic.3198 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 > @nosleepdemon.1368 said: > That depends; people tend to be excellent at collapsing complex situations into black and white scenarios. Obviously the OP was already looking for something "political" to take exception to. Whether or not that is because of some pre-existing "agenda" set out in a heavy handed way by the developers or pre-existing "bad think" by the OP is up for debate. I think it is at least in part due to the rather childish writing. Perhaps this is just a symptom of MMOs in general, I can't remember ever playing an MMO with a good story. Conan 1-20 perhaps? It doesn't depend, not in the slightest. There really is no debate in the matter that the OP and others who take issue with the existence of LGBT characters in media do so out of their own misinformation rather than an actual issue with the storytelling at hand. There is nothing in GW2 that's heavy handed about any of it's LGBT characters and anyone who truly claims that the LGBT characters are "forced down their throats" needs to self reflect on the matter, especially when those characters are given the same weight as straight couples in GW2 and other media and nobody bats an eye at the straight couples, but you see debates about "politics" when LGBT characters are presented in the same way straight couples are. Poor writing is another matter entirely, and the devs do need to work on some aspects of presentation, but their representation of the LGBT community specifically is not egregious in any way (apart from perhaps the tokenesque writing of Kasmeer and Marjory, but that's not politics shoved down our throat, it's poor representation rather than anything political in any way). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayumi Spender.1082 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 > @drgast.1469 said: > Seriously, though, I think we all need to take a step back and discuss what's truly important here. Why aren't there more interracial couples in GW2? You really think a Charr never looked at an Asura and thought, "I want to hit that"? Seriously GW2, where is the realism?!?! That's one thing at times I kind of wonder actually. Just seem weird they're always paired with the same race. The whole "can't crossbreed" doesn't matter because the whole point (mainly in this topic) is same gender relationships already can't breed. ESPECIALLY the Sylvaris that can't breed with each other no matter whether they look male or female as they were not made that way through the mother tree/grove/whichever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrdeye.1028 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 > @"Ayumi Spender.1082" said: > > @drgast.1469 said: > > Seriously, though, I think we all need to take a step back and discuss what's truly important here. Why aren't there more interracial couples in GW2? You really think a Charr never looked at an Asura and thought, "I want to hit that"? Seriously GW2, where is the realism?!?! > > That's one thing at times I kind of wonder actually. Just seem weird they're always paired with the same race. > The whole "can't crossbreed" doesn't matter because the whole point (mainly in this topic) is same gender relationships already can't breed. ESPECIALLY the Sylvaris that can't breed with each other no matter whether they look male or female as they were not made that way through the mother tree/grove/whichever. Even homosexuality is ultimately rooted in reproductive instincts which at least require another member of your own species. Just because you're not having sex for procreation doesn't mean you'll do it with anything. The Sylvari part is interesting though. I imagine the developers just went with something that would be familiar to humans who are after all the target audience for this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayumi Spender.1082 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 > @thrdeye.1028 said: > > @"Ayumi Spender.1082" said: > > > @drgast.1469 said: > > > Seriously, though, I think we all need to take a step back and discuss what's truly important here. Why aren't there more interracial couples in GW2? You really think a Charr never looked at an Asura and thought, "I want to hit that"? Seriously GW2, where is the realism?!?! > > > > That's one thing at times I kind of wonder actually. Just seem weird they're always paired with the same race. > > The whole "can't crossbreed" doesn't matter because the whole point (mainly in this topic) is same gender relationships already can't breed. ESPECIALLY the Sylvaris that can't breed with each other no matter whether they look male or female as they were not made that way through the mother tree/grove/whichever. > > Even homosexuality is ultimately rooted in reproductive instincts which at least require another member of your own species. Just because you're not having sex for procreation doesn't mean you'll do it with anything. > > The Sylvari part is interesting though. I imagine the developers just went with something that would be familiar to humans who are after all the target audience for this game. What I'm pretty much getting at is there's no reason let's say a charr wouldn't find a human attractive or a norn finding a sylvari or an asura one either. Crossbreeding can't be the argument. Especially human and norns as they look more similar than the other races. Even norn kids look like some of the normal humans, even in the faces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oglaf.1074 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 With Norns you have an obvious problem though: size and strength. Keep in mind that lore-wise a Norn is even stronger than he looks - they are not just big humans with the strength you'd expect from that. No they are far stronger than that. So when it comes to Norns and the "lesser races" there might be sort of a Lt. Worf-situation going on and a stigma against "dating" them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nosleepdemon.1368 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 > @castlemanic.3198 said: > > @nosleepdemon.1368 said: > > That depends; people tend to be excellent at collapsing complex situations into black and white scenarios. Obviously the OP was already looking for something "political" to take exception to. Whether or not that is because of some pre-existing "agenda" set out in a heavy handed way by the developers or pre-existing "bad think" by the OP is up for debate. I think it is at least in part due to the rather childish writing. Perhaps this is just a symptom of MMOs in general, I can't remember ever playing an MMO with a good story. Conan 1-20 perhaps? > > It doesn't depend, not in the slightest. There really is no debate in the matter that the OP and others who take issue with the existence of LGBT characters in media do so out of their own misinformation rather than an actual issue with the storytelling at hand. There is nothing in GW2 that's heavy handed about any of it's LGBT characters and anyone who truly claims that the LGBT characters are "forced down their throats" needs to self reflect on the matter, especially when those characters are given the same weight as straight couples in GW2 and other media and nobody bats an eye at the straight couples, but you see debates about "politics" when LGBT characters are presented in the same way straight couples are. > > Poor writing is another matter entirely, and the devs do need to work on some aspects of presentation, but their representation of the LGBT community specifically is not egregious in any way (apart from perhaps the tokenesque writing of Kasmeer and Marjory, but that's not politics shoved down our throat, it's poor representation rather than anything political in any way). I take issue with the agenda that I see pushed forward in GW2 that favours inclusiveness over decent story telling. The writers clearly favoured a diverse cast of characters over a smaller cast that actually works. My PC is bending over backward to make every character like Braham feel understood and included, when really, she should be telling them to put up or shut up. Has this anything to do with an apparent prejudice against LGBT folk? No. Of course not. Again, I think at least some of this "agenda" stuff is down to how patronising the writers have made the story, I would not presume to assume that the OP harbours prejudices because they have pointed out what they feel to be an issue of political correctness trumping decent story telling, or a realistic game world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
castlemanic.3198 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 > @nosleepdemon.1368 said: > I take issue with the agenda that I see pushed forward in GW2 that favours inclusiveness over decent story telling. The writers clearly favoured a diverse cast of characters over a smaller cast that actually works. My PC is bending over backward to make every character like Braham feel understood and included, when really, she should be telling them to put up or shut up. Has this anything to do with an apparent prejudice against LGBT folk? No. Of course not. Again, I think at least some of this "agenda" stuff is down to how patronising the writers have made the story, I would not presume to assume that the OP harbours prejudices because they have pointed out what they feel to be an issue of political correctness trumping decent story telling, or a realistic game world. I don't agree, I don't see any agenda being pushed, which may be the fundamental differences in our arguments. I don't see it as an issue and I actually empathise with the player character trying to extend an olive branch to Braham when he's clearly hurting, I'd do the same. We view the characters and the story differently, and we'll never agree on how some aspects of the story played out, but there is no agenda being pushed. A poor portrayal in writing does not mean there is an agenda being pushed. And specifically to do with the OP's issue with this heart, no amount of "agenda pushing" could possibly insinuate that a randomized selection of NPC's is some how political. It takes olympic gold medal mental gymnastics to try and conceive that possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyger.5429 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 > @castlemanic.3198 said: > It's funny the number of people who perceive the mere *existence* of the LGBT community in video games as "political" stuff that's "shoved down their throats" and they want removed. > > Their mere existence. Let that sink in. > > Nothing in the game is "over-sexualised" in terms of story presentation, yet people use that argument when the LGBT community merely exists within the game. Nothing is shoved down our throats, not even the kasmeer/marjory relationship. I 100% believe that the vast majority of the complaints about their relationship would cease to exist if they were a straight couple, because most complaints have to do with their relationship being "shoved down our throats". The poor writing involving their relationship and how they're better characters when apart has nothing to do with their sexuality and everything to do with the writer's capability of portraying characters well (I think the writing is fine, but I have low standards and I know it). > > The number of people getting up in arms about the LGBT community merely *existing* within GW2 (or any media portrayal) is astounding. You can provide legitimate criticism on their implementation (because we seriously do not need 'token lgbt stereotypes'), but criticizing their mere existence as *political* is something that should really make you stop in your tracks and think "why do I have an issue with this?" I don't know I find the responses from people of LGBT community in this thread a bit hypocritical. I mean read the title, the OP was upset that the quest only seemed to give the option of lesbian parings. Of course they were wrong about it, as others have said that this was not the case. When I played through it, I barely payed attention to who I was pairing (I may have even ended up with only heterosexual parings). What I am getting at is that the person who started this thread was not a straight individual (from my knowledge) getting upset that homosexual pairings were an option. If it was, you can be sure that Anet would have closed it as soon as possible. This is where the double standard lies. Society needs to let people express their opinions so civil discussion can take place instead of trying to shut people up because they don't agree with your opinion or have different biases and political viewpoints. We are walking on dangerous grounds these days. For these reasons and many more are probably why some people are asking to not have this in-game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nosleepdemon.1368 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 > @castlemanic.3198 said: > > @nosleepdemon.1368 said: > > I take issue with the agenda that I see pushed forward in GW2 that favours inclusiveness over decent story telling. The writers clearly favoured a diverse cast of characters over a smaller cast that actually works. My PC is bending over backward to make every character like Braham feel understood and included, when really, she should be telling them to put up or shut up. Has this anything to do with an apparent prejudice against LGBT folk? No. Of course not. Again, I think at least some of this "agenda" stuff is down to how patronising the writers have made the story, I would not presume to assume that the OP harbours prejudices because they have pointed out what they feel to be an issue of political correctness trumping decent story telling, or a realistic game world. > > I don't agree, I don't see any agenda being pushed, which may be the fundamental differences in our arguments. I don't see it as an issue and I actually empathise with the player character trying to extend an olive branch to Braham when he's clearly hurting, I'd do the same. We view the characters and the story differently, and we'll never agree on how some aspects of the story played out, but there is no agenda being pushed. A poor portrayal in writing does not mean there is an agenda being pushed. > > And specifically to do with the OP's issue with this heart, no amount of "agenda pushing" could possibly insinuate that a randomized selection of NPC's is some how political. It takes olympic gold medal mental gymnastics to try and conceive that possibility. Fair enough, I do see that particular portion to be a bit of a stretch, yeah. Perhaps you are right about the writing, it certainly is hamfisted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nosleepdemon.1368 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 > @Lyger.5429 said: > > @castlemanic.3198 said: > > It's funny the number of people who perceive the mere *existence* of the LGBT community in video games as "political" stuff that's "shoved down their throats" and they want removed. > > > > Their mere existence. Let that sink in. > > > > Nothing in the game is "over-sexualised" in terms of story presentation, yet people use that argument when the LGBT community merely exists within the game. Nothing is shoved down our throats, not even the kasmeer/marjory relationship. I 100% believe that the vast majority of the complaints about their relationship would cease to exist if they were a straight couple, because most complaints have to do with their relationship being "shoved down our throats". The poor writing involving their relationship and how they're better characters when apart has nothing to do with their sexuality and everything to do with the writer's capability of portraying characters well (I think the writing is fine, but I have low standards and I know it). > > > > The number of people getting up in arms about the LGBT community merely *existing* within GW2 (or any media portrayal) is astounding. You can provide legitimate criticism on their implementation (because we seriously do not need 'token lgbt stereotypes'), but criticizing their mere existence as *political* is something that should really make you stop in your tracks and think "why do I have an issue with this?" > > I don't know I find the responses from people of LGBT community in this thread a bit hypocritical. I mean read the title, the OP was upset that the quest only seemed to give the option of lesbian parings. Of course they were wrong about it, as others have said that this was not the case. When I played through it, I barely payed attention to who I was pairing (I may have even ended up with only heterosexual parings). What I am getting at is that the person who started this thread was not a straight individual (from my knowledge) getting upset that homosexual pairings were an option. If it was, you can be sure that Anet would have closed it as soon as possible. This is where the double standard lies. Society needs to let people express their opinions so civil discussion can take place instead of trying to shut people up because they don't agree with your opinion or have different biases and political viewpoints. We are walking on dangerous grounds these days. > > For these reasons and many more are probably why some people are asking to not have this in-game. I tend to agree, but I think that this thread has remained reasonably civil. It hasn't been closed yet and we are ripping parts of the game to shreds. Everything aside, ANet have made a pretty darn good game. Just sort out the story, yeah? :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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