Merge Solar Focusing Lens and PBM

[RedSPINE.7845]

Hello everyone. I wanted to address one of the many problems of Holosmith. Personally, I'm a bit disappointed in it, and I know a lot people are. But not always for the same reasons. One thing that bothers me the most is the lack of innovation in the Holosmith trait line. One would always take the same set of traits, because their synergies are too obvious.

 

Who would take Solar Focusing Lens without Photonic Blasting Module when you lose 5/7 of its utility if don't plan to overheat ? Who would take Photoning Blasting Module without Solar Focusing Lens since your goal is to overheat as fast as you can, and so you won't benefit from Light Density Amplifier ? Playing Prismatic Converter is even more stupid because overheat doesn't count as disengaging Photon Forge and then you won't ever benefit from the trait ...

 

Please, merge these two traits like you did in the past for another trait line I don't remember. This would allow space for one more Major Adept trait, maybe opening new doors for the elite spec.

 

I can only incite you to take part in this discussion, wether you are for or against my wish. I do feel like the Holosmith in not in it's final form, like it's still in beta or something. Pardon my not-that-good English :3

[Arimas.3492]

Going to have to agree with this. Trait is designed to work very well with PBM, but its terrible without it. Would be a good merge and would allow the adept line to bring some sort of power increasing option to it to supplement the spec, considering the other 2 options are purely defensive with dmg reduction and condi conversion.

[Geisterlicht.6083]

I strongly disagree, since that would reduce the amount of dps playstyles.

 

A better approach would be to additionally make it apply 2 stacks of the effect upon leaving PF.

(2 on entering 2 on leaving or 5 on overheat)

That way it provides the same boost with Thermal Release Valve and PBM.

 

If they are going to merge it, they should merge it with Lazer's Edge, to keep up build diversity.

 

Edit: PBM is based around a power playstyle, while TRV is better for condi, there is no point in merging a underperforming condi trait with a power one, they should rather make it work properly with condi.

[RedSPINE.7845]

How about the fact that no other trait is interesting with PBM ?

[Geisterlicht.6083]

I'd argument that the Light Density Amplifier goes well with PBM, since it lets you overheat faster.

So the statement that there is no option that synergize with PBM is false.

 

It looks like you want another dps option, so they rather should balance SFL for the grandmaster traits, merge the two defensive ones and add a power offensive one.

Or add a % increase to sfl (while balancing it for the grandmasters), so it becomes the go to choice for both playstyles.

[insanemaniac.2456]

hmm

 

i have several thoughts:

 

* i dont think its necessarily bad to pose a choice between a dps trait, a condi defense trait, and a power defense trait. op says one would not take the dps trait without pbm and vice versa, but i think spreading the dps traits damage to make it useful with the other grandmasters would be equally acceptable. a dps build is just gonna pick whichever grandmaster does the most damage, and merging them would more or less lock the grandmaster choice in for every build, condi or power. its ok to have different traits be useful for different dps builds in different situations, but this is not a paradigm the devs are good at conveying in this game. you have to look at for example league of legends final itemization goals to really get a feel for how varied these choices can be. balance issues (and not playing the game for a long time) aside, wits end and black cleaver are meant to be the best items for cutting through magic resist / armor. you take them when the enemy stacks those stats. you dont take them when the enemy stacks hp. the choices in gw2 are different. shallower. anet has failed thus far, except on vale guardian and keep construct and the single mordrem mob thats super weak to condis, to present us with diversification. we dont have to ask "which trait does more in x situation" because we can answer that by asking "which trait does more". and for now, the answer to that seems to be pbm. which brings me to my next thought.

* merging them will just ossify the grandmaster choice. suddenly pbm is the only trait you take, cuz it did more before, and now it has extra burning. as geister suggested, merging it into lasers edge and splitting/adding some damage to exiting pf makes the minor appealing to condi builds without giving extra functionality to a grandmaster. but then we also start running into the wall of anet saying "we dont want minors to be better than majors".

* i also think a major part of the draw of pbm is that the self harm part of pf gets nerfed. none of the other grandmasters can be as appealing as pbm for as long as that disparity exists. both that and the tangential bug "mounting resets your heat level" need to be dealt with.

* what replaces SFL? another dps trait? ok, great, holosmith needs that (no /s), but then whats the difference from the pre merge state except that pbm is now the "mandatory" choice for grandmaster? a supporty trait? i think youll be hard pressed to convince anet that a selfish dps spec should be given support, even though this is prolly the best candidate position for such a thing. a defense trait? theres 2 already, 1 for condi, 1 for power, and that more or less covers defense in this game.

[RedSPINE.7845]

If you ask, I think I'll introduce a QoL trait that allows for more flexibility such as one which would cut the CD of disengage PF in half, and also affect the kit lock. Or maybe one that makes you cool at a loss of 10 heat per second 3 seconds after disengagement.

[Robert Gee.9246]

PBM already has a fairly complex description that I'd prefer not get longer. If solar focusing lens is weak though I think that's an area that could be improved. Seeing as its an adept level trait I don't think it needs to change all that much.

 

> @Geisterlicht.6083 said:

> A better approach would be to additionally make it apply 2 stacks of the effect upon leaving PF.

> (2 on entering 2 on leaving or 5 on overheat)

> That way it provides the same boost with Thermal Release Valve and PBM.

This isn't a bad idea either.

Edit: For clarification I like this idea, but it does make is similar to Prismatic Converter which also triggers on Deactivation. Generally we prefer to have traits with different trigger conditions in the same tier.

 

[Adamantium.3682]

I feel like the burn is inconsequential even if you add a couple more stacks, and Holo is lacking in the direct damage it seems to be meant to do. Solar Focusing Lens should get a "+10% damage against burning foes" or something.

[Toeofdoom.6152]

In a vacuum, 4 seconds of burning every 6 seconds (with alacrity) is pretty good for an adept trait - on par with something like burning precision.

 

In the context of photon forge though, condis are quite weak because only photon blitz adds condis. As such, at least in pve it's on the lower end of adept traits and something in that area has room to improve (either the context or the trait itself)

 

That said, I do still need to benchmark burn + grieving holo :)

[lorddarkflare.9186]

> @Adamantium.3682 said:

> I feel like the burn is inconsequential even if you add a couple more stacks, and Holo is lacking in the direct damage it seems to be meant to do. Solar Focusing Lens should get a "+10% damage against burning foes" or something.

 

This almost necessitates cutting down on the burn stacks as the trait may become too good for its tier.

 

The biggest issue with the trait is a problem endemic with the class: Holosmith wants to be a power-based mono-condition hybrid, but does not do enough to justify investing in burning.

[Adamantium.3682]

> @lorddarkflare.9186 said:

> > @Adamantium.3682 said:

> > I feel like the burn is inconsequential even if you add a couple more stacks, and Holo is lacking in the direct damage it seems to be meant to do. Solar Focusing Lens should get a "+10% damage against burning foes" or something.

>

> This almost necessitates cutting down on the burn stacks as the trait may become too good for its tier.

>

> The biggest issue with the trait is a problem endemic with the class: Holosmith wants to be a power-based mono-condition hybrid, but does not do enough to justify investing in burning.

 

Agreed on all counts, but what's the point of even having the burning really? There's no need to cut it down as it's sort of pointless as it is now? It's already so low as to be negligible. It does nothing in a power build and condi builds aren't using Holo.

 

Holosmith isn't a hybrid spec in any sense. It seemed like it might work out that way early on but there's just not enough condition damage, PF is completely power based. Giving a short duration burning trait is sort of a waste. Robert suggests it shouldn't be too strong as an Adept, sure I agree with that, but it should at least jive with the rest of the spec.

[spiritualabyss.7016]

> @Adamantium.3682 said:

> I feel like the burn is inconsequential even if you add a couple more stacks, and Holo is lacking in the direct damage it seems to be meant to do. Solar Focusing Lens should get a "+10% damage against burning foes" or something.

 

Don't you agree, that condi & power holo both are too weak atm?

I'm all for a trait that adds 10% outgoing power AND condition damage, but one that only affects power is not what we need (Lazers Edge does that already).

 

> @Toeofdoom.6152 said:

> In a vacuum, 4 seconds of burning every 6 seconds (with alacrity) is pretty good for an adept trait - on par with something like burning precision.

>

> In the context of photon forge though, condis are quite weak because only photon blitz adds condis. As such, at least in pve it's on the lower end of adept traits and something in that area has room to improve (either the context or the trait itself)

>

> That said, I do still need to benchmark burn + grieving holo :)

 

@Toeofdoom.6152, @Adamantium.3682 Burning Precision (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Burning_Precision) adds that amount of damage + gives 20% condition duration, so I think a 10% dmg modifier for outgoing condi and power dmg would be perfect in this slot.

 

This would bring holosmit into a decent spot for condi and power builds.

 

I have tried various setups for hybrid holo at the release of PoF, and none of them was good.

After that i replaced grieving pieces through vipers and came to realize that a pure condi holo is just straight up better.

 

For reference, with condi holo I managed to hit 34K. With power holo i get to 34K+. With Hybrid i barely got 32K.

 

Add 10 % to both builds and they look much better balanced in a real raid setting. They still got some of the worst rotations in the game, but reward with something that would be equal to other builds that exist.

 

[Geisterlicht.6083]

> @spiritualabyss.7016 said:

> > @Adamantium.3682 said:

> > I feel like the burn is inconsequential even if you add a couple more stacks, and Holo is lacking in the direct damage it seems to be meant to do. Solar Focusing Lens should get a "+10% damage against burning foes" or something.

>

> Don't you agree, that condi & power holo both are too weak atm?

> I'm all for a trait that adds 10% outgoing power AND condition damage, but one that only affects power is not what we need (Lazers Edge does that already).

>

> > @Toeofdoom.6152 said:

> > In a vacuum, 4 seconds of burning every 6 seconds (with alacrity) is pretty good for an adept trait - on par with something like burning precision.

> >

> > In the context of photon forge though, condis are quite weak because only photon blitz adds condis. As such, at least in pve it's on the lower end of adept traits and something in that area has room to improve (either the context or the trait itself)

> >

> > That said, I do still need to benchmark burn + grieving holo :)

>

> @Toeofdoom.6152, @Adamantium.3682 Burning Precision (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Burning_Precision) adds that amount of damage + gives 20% condition duration, so I think a 10% dmg modifier for outgoing condi and power dmg would be perfect in this slot.

>

> This would bring holosmit into a decent spot for condi and power builds.

>

> I have tried various setups for hybrid holo at the release of PoF, and none of them was good.

> After that i replaced grieving pieces through vipers and came to realize that a pure condi holo is just straight up better.

>

> For reference, with condi holo I managed to hit 34K. With power holo i get to 34K+. With Hybrid i barely got 32K.

>

> Add 10 % to both builds and they look much better balanced in a real raid setting. They still got some of the worst rotations in the game, but reward with something that would be equal to other builds that exist.

>

 

I completely forgot that other professions have traits that boost outgoing power and condition damage.

Sounds like a good idea to me.

We would loose a damage trait that only really works with one out of three grandmasters, and get a neutral damage buff that is the same regardless of which playstyle you choose.

 

Also @ Robert Gee.9246, Burning Precision (elementalist) is an adept trait, that adds way more than SFL in its current state.

[Robert Gee.9246]

> @Geisterlicht.6083 said

> Also @Robert Gee.9246 burning precision (elementalist) is an adept trait, that adds way more than SFL in its current state.

 

Burning Precision is 2.4s of 1 stack of burning every 5 seconds. Solar Focusing lens is 2 stacks of burning for 2 seconds every 6 seconds when optimized. I get that you're probably not going to toggle Photon Forge every 6 seconds though (and Burning Precision buffs all burning too) which is why I agree SFL could be better.

 

>@Adamantium.3682 said:

> I feel like the burn is inconsequential even if you add a couple more stacks, and Holo is lacking in the direct damage it seems to be meant to do. Solar Focusing Lens should get a "+10% damage against burning foes" or something.

With that said, the ele trait Burning Rage is a GM minor and gives 10% bonus damage to burning foes. It might be too much to add that to SFL given that it's much lower tier. I get where you're going with this, but I also want to be careful about adding too many conditional damage modifiers to profession that already has quite a few.

 

-------------------------

So far my main takeaways from this discussion are:

1. SFL feels like it isn't as good without also taking PBM. It would be nice if it was more usable in conjunction with other traits.

2. SFL is in a trait tier with no options for power builds. It would be nice if it or another trait in the tier benefited power.

 

**As a general disclaimer**, I can't guarantee that we'll have the time to change SFL in the the next balance update. Holosmith already has quite a few adjustments (yes some of them are for sword) and I don't know if we have time for many more in this batch. I do however appreciate the civil discussion and hope it will help inform future updates.

[hintkei.6329]

Maybe this way it could work. Make Laser Edge only 10% and change SFL to have 5 or 7% to burning foes (other new power specs also have up to 17% modifiers). Additionally I hope Capacity will get some love to synergize better with sword (critchance doesnt synergize in power build at all). Reason why I hope capacity will be at least on par with PBM are FoTMs, we are forced to blow ourselves up and with addition of agony (social awkwardness) we never get heal up and most likely just keep dying.

EDIT: another thing about sword synergy with heat. Even if we go griving stats (or any other mix) and rely on the extra crit % from heat, we wont have this crit % when in Photon Forge which in th end will hurt us more than we gain

[miriforst.1290]

> @"Robert Gee.9246" said:

> > @Geisterlicht.6083 said

> > Also @Robert Gee.9246 burning precision (elementalist) is an adept trait, that adds way more than SFL in its current state.

>

> Burning Precision is 2.4s of 1 stack of burning every 5 seconds. Solar Focusing lens is 2 stacks of burning for 2 seconds every 6 seconds when optimized. I get that you're probably not going to toggle Photon Forge every 6 seconds though (and Burning Precision buffs all burning too) which is why I agree SFL could be better.

>

> >@Adamantium.3682 said:

> > I feel like the burn is inconsequential even if you add a couple more stacks, and Holo is lacking in the direct damage it seems to be meant to do. Solar Focusing Lens should get a "+10% damage against burning foes" or something.

> With that said, the ele trait Burning Rage is a GM minor and gives 10% bonus damage to burning foes. It might be too much to add that to SFL given that it's much lower tier. I get where you're going with this, but I also want to be careful about adding too many conditional damage modifiers to profession that already has quite a few.

>

> -------------------------

> So far my main takeaways from this discussion are:

> 1. SFL feels like it isn't as good without also taking PBM. It would be nice if it was more usable in conjunction with other traits.

> 2. SFL is in a trait tier with no options for power builds. It would be nice if it or another trait in the tier benefited power.

>

> **As a general disclaimer**, I can't guarantee that we'll have the time to change SFL in the the next balance update. Holosmith already has quite a few adjustments (yes some of them are for sword) and I don't know if we have time for many more in this batch. I do however appreciate the civil discussion and hope it will help inform future updates.

 

 

I get the feeling you want us to roll grieving given our only damage offhand is condition based and we get a few odd conditions here and there on holo (not enough to go full condition mind you which given how everything is condi might be a good thing). So giving power and condition damage requiring you to go for both for maximum effect might actually help drive holosmith in this direction.

 

Just be careful because while condiholo might be a joke in pve, combining incendiary powder, solar focusing and photon blitz (Also add flamethrower for even more insult to injury with toolbelt) gives us a extremely hard hitting but short condi burst which is good in pvp and not necessary in pve (8x1s burn compared to 2x4s or 1x8s). Conditions need to return to being long duration low intensity with a ramp up again.

 

Of course the build i gave above is a joke also in pvp, but please let it stay that way.

 

 

[Hock.6740]

> @"Robert Gee.9246" said:

anyway thanks you for discussing this with us

 

 

[Ardid.7203]

> @"Robert Gee.9246" said:

> > @Geisterlicht.6083 said

> > Also @Robert Gee.9246 burning precision (elementalist) is an adept trait, that adds way more than SFL in its current state.

>

> Burning Precision is 2.4s of 1 stack of burning every 5 seconds. Solar Focusing lens is 2 stacks of burning for 2 seconds every 6 seconds when optimized. I get that you're probably not going to toggle Photon Forge every 6 seconds though (and Burning Precision buffs all burning too) which is why I agree SFL could be better.

>

> >@Adamantium.3682 said:

> > I feel like the burn is inconsequential even if you add a couple more stacks, and Holo is lacking in the direct damage it seems to be meant to do. Solar Focusing Lens should get a "+10% damage against burning foes" or something.

> With that said, the ele trait Burning Rage is a GM minor and gives 10% bonus damage to burning foes. It might be too much to add that to SFL given that it's much lower tier. I get where you're going with this, but I also want to be careful about adding too many conditional damage modifiers to profession that already has quite a few.

>

> -------------------------

> So far my main takeaways from this discussion are:

> 1. SFL feels like it isn't as good without also taking PBM. It would be nice if it was more usable in conjunction with other traits.

> 2. SFL is in a trait tier with no options for power builds. It would be nice if it or another trait in the tier benefited power.

>

> **As a general disclaimer**, I can't guarantee that we'll have the time to change SFL in the the next balance update. Holosmith already has quite a few adjustments (yes some of them are for sword) and I don't know if we have time for many more in this batch. I do however appreciate the civil discussion and hope it will help inform future updates.

 

I just want to say a big thank you for talking with us. We need to know from Devs who actually hear what we talk and do make informed work to improve the profession, even if your reasoning and choices often differ from the more common opinions in the forum. Thanks.

 

About SFL vs Burning Precision, lets not forget Burning Precision is:

- Not part of a pure selfish DPS elite spec.

- Not tied to a self punishing mechanic.

[insanemaniac.2456]

> @"Robert Gee.9246" said:

>Holosmith already has quite a few adjustments

 

hooray! three cheers for the team! or you! or whoever!

i cant wait!

[Adamantium.3682]

> @"Robert Gee.9246" said:

> > @Geisterlicht.6083 said

> > Also @Robert Gee.9246 burning precision (elementalist) is an adept trait, that adds way more than SFL in its current state.

>

> Burning Precision is 2.4s of 1 stack of burning every 5 seconds. Solar Focusing lens is 2 stacks of burning for 2 seconds every 6 seconds when optimized. I get that you're probably not going to toggle Photon Forge every 6 seconds though (and Burning Precision buffs all burning too) which is why I agree SFL could be better.

You definitely won't be toggling PF that much, partly because the best thing to do in most cases is take PBM and explode, bouncing in and out of PF isn't very rewarding. By itself I can see that SFL is a decent trait I just don't think it jives with what Holosmiths are building towards. Grieving doesn't work out as anticipated with Holo so in reality conditions are being used with power centric gear. That's why I think even with an optimal uptime of 2 stacks for 2s every 6s it's not much. Effective Holo builds won't have much condition damage or duration.

> >@Adamantium.3682 said:

> > I feel like the burn is inconsequential even if you add a couple more stacks, and Holo is lacking in the direct damage it seems to be meant to do. Solar Focusing Lens should get a "+10% damage against burning foes" or something.

> With that said, the ele trait Burning Rage is a GM minor and gives 10% bonus damage to burning foes. It might be too much to add that to SFL given that it's much lower tier. I get where you're going with this, but I also want to be careful about adding too many conditional damage modifiers to profession that already has quite a few.

That makes sense, although we can't use them all at once with Holosmith, and the Tools one is now not very useful. Your point is well taken here though. 7% works ?

> -------------------------

> So far my main takeaways from this discussion are:

> 1. SFL feels like it isn't as good without also taking PBM. It would be nice if it was more usable in conjunction with other traits.

> 2. SFL is in a trait tier with no options for power builds. It would be nice if it or another trait in the tier benefited power.

I agree with your takeaways thank you for coming in here and putting in the effort to understand us.

> **As a general disclaimer**, I can't guarantee that we'll have the time to change SFL in the the next balance update. Holosmith already has quite a few adjustments (yes some of them are for sword) and I don't know if we have time for many more in this batch. I do however appreciate the civil discussion and hope it will help inform future updates.

 

Thanks for this communication, there may always be a chance this will backfire on you but I really appreciate you taking the time to step into what can be like a lion's den here to discuss with us. I'm excited to see what has been done for the next patch. It is clear you have put in the effort to understand the concerns most players are agreeing on, which is very appreciated.

[Adamantium.3682]

> @Ardid.7203 said:

> > @"Robert Gee.9246" said:

> > > @Geisterlicht.6083 said

> > > Also @Robert Gee.9246 burning precision (elementalist) is an adept trait, that adds way more than SFL in its current state.

> >

> > Burning Precision is 2.4s of 1 stack of burning every 5 seconds. Solar Focusing lens is 2 stacks of burning for 2 seconds every 6 seconds when optimized. I get that you're probably not going to toggle Photon Forge every 6 seconds though (and Burning Precision buffs all burning too) which is why I agree SFL could be better.

> >

> > >@Adamantium.3682 said:

> > > I feel like the burn is inconsequential even if you add a couple more stacks, and Holo is lacking in the direct damage it seems to be meant to do. Solar Focusing Lens should get a "+10% damage against burning foes" or something.

> > With that said, the ele trait Burning Rage is a GM minor and gives 10% bonus damage to burning foes. It might be too much to add that to SFL given that it's much lower tier. I get where you're going with this, but I also want to be careful about adding too many conditional damage modifiers to profession that already has quite a few.

> >

> > -------------------------

> > So far my main takeaways from this discussion are:

> > 1. SFL feels like it isn't as good without also taking PBM. It would be nice if it was more usable in conjunction with other traits.

> > 2. SFL is in a trait tier with no options for power builds. It would be nice if it or another trait in the tier benefited power.

> >

> > **As a general disclaimer**, I can't guarantee that we'll have the time to change SFL in the the next balance update. Holosmith already has quite a few adjustments (yes some of them are for sword) and I don't know if we have time for many more in this batch. I do however appreciate the civil discussion and hope it will help inform future updates.

>

> I just want to say a big thank you for talking with us. We need to know from Devs who actually hear what we talk and do make informed work to improve the profession, even if your reasoning and choices often differ from the more common opinions in the forum. Thanks.

>

> About SFL vs Burning Precision, lets not forget Burning Precision is:

> - Not part of a pure selfish DPS elite spec.

> - Not tied to a self punishing mechanic.

 

This is a solid point. Holosmith sort of _should_ be there most damaging spec, and therefore have the most damaging traits. It's pure damage, utility nowhere near the scale of an Ele that can use burning precision in any build.

[Numot.3965]

I'm kinda surprised that it wasn't made into : "your attacks inflict burning above the heat threshold".

That would boost damage both in and out of forge.

[tenryuta.2014]

> @RedSPINE.7845 said:

> How about the fact that no other trait is interesting with PBM ?

 

PBM is a super nuke(POWA), i use LDA instead:P. valve is better for lens because......................: condition damage

[cat.8975]

The real issue with it being any sort of single-condi hybrid build is the 33% burn duration trait directly competing with the best power mod engi has. Unless that ever gets changed, we'll never see a hybrid build for engi.