Update on how class balance feels in 5v5 - My opinions

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Warrior - Feels fine.

Berserker - Eh, didn't really expect pvp status out of it to begin with.

Spellbreaker - Feels great.

 

Guardian - Bit underwhelming.

Dragonhunter - Seems to be viable again in some circumstances, surprisingly.

Firebrand - Balanced for the most part, but it's still pumping out too much offensive aggression.

 

Rev - It's fine.

Herald - It's still too dominant. Either the offensive pressure or the sustain needs a shave.

Renegade - In some situations it sucks and in others it's way too bloated. Rather than nerfs or buffs, it needs reallocations to where its power lies.

 

Thief - w/e it's fine.

Daredevil - It's not OP right now. It looks OP because of how the meta formed around it. Sort of like if Necros had a meta with no DEs or Rangers.

Deadeye - This class is bad now.

 

Engi - w/e it's fine for a core.

Scrapper - This class needs some sustain back.

Holosmith - Feels good finally.

 

Ranger - Viable side node presence but absolute garbage when focused or while in team fights. Pets explode too fast in above bell curve play.

Druid - Everything about it is bad. The CA Kit skills need serious direct **hard buffs**

Soulbeast - No longer a viable competitive presence. The Maul & WI nerfs hit too hard.

 

Ele - Seems to be fine to me for a core.

Tempest - Pumping out way too much CC. I'm not even saying it's OP, but rather the amount of CC is unhealthy for game play.

Weaver - Seems fine to me.

 

Mes - It's fine for core.

Chrono - Nothing viable here at all. Nothing.

Mirage - Another situation of odd balance. It struggles in solo/duo queue, but it works fine in organized 5 man play.

 

Necro - Way too much sustain, not enough damage output. It is actually a Bunker spec.

Reaper - Good balance right now imo.

Scourge - It needs back some damage and it could be viable again.

 

 

~ And then we have the issue with intra-class wide revive speed. I'm not saying that it's OP, but I will say that it is obnoxious in a very special kind of way.

 

[zoopop.5630]

Soulbeast - No longer a viable competitive presence. The Maul & WI nerfs hit too hard.

 

What? Still seeing rangers 100-0 People from time to time.

[xWiroo.3841]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

 

 

> Firebrand - Balanced for the most part, but it's still pumping out too much offensive aggression.

 

what?

 

> Deadeye - This class is bad now.

Deadeye isnt bad, you are bad with it or you have seen bad players using it, a skilled thief is always great despite the spec

 

> Holosmith - Feels good finally.

Im sure it feels good to pump so much shields and cc lmao.

 

> Ranger - Viable side node presence but absolute garbage when focused or while in team fights. Pets explode too fast in above bell curve play.

Sic em is still overtuned, but considering how other ranger stuff is lets say its balanced.

 

> Tempest - Pumping out way too much CC. I'm not even saying it's OP, but rather the amount of CC is unhealthy for game play.

Tempest is an annoying mass of cc with no damage.

> Weaver - Seems fine to me.

The only weaver viable now is the tanky one, you cant really do damage.

 

 

> Chrono - Nothing viable here at all. Nothing.

Yea chrono sucks

 

> Necro - Way too much sustain, not enough damage output. It is actually a Bunker spec.

> Reaper - Good balance right now imo.

> Scourge - It needs back some damage and it could be viable again.

Scourge has enough aoe damage to compensate for its lack of burning capabilities on a 1v1 scenario

 

> ~ And then we have the issue with intra-class wide revive speed. I'm not saying that it's OP, but I will say that it is obnoxious in a very special kind of way.

I agree, ress is stupid as it is now

 

 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

> @"zoopop.5630" said:

> Soulbeast - No longer a viable competitive presence. The Maul & WI nerfs hit too hard.

>

> What? Still seeing rangers 100-0 People from time to time.

 

For sure. I do it all the time with one wolf pack on a berserker build, but that doesn't make it viable competitively.

 

In that one moment that players see a Soulbeast 100-0 someone with a burst, what they aren't noticing is the elongated amount of time that the Ranger needed to position for that, as he lurked around out of combat off node, letting his team essentially have to 4v5 while he set himself up for a burst. If the high risk high reward burst fails, the team is punished for it hard when the Soulbeast is on a 60s CD between death bursts.

 

Pretty much what happened is:

 

* Before Maul/Wi nerf, the Soulbeast could brawl. He could engage early before a death burst, or after a failed burst, and maintain pressure so he could stay on a node and contribute.

* After Maul/Wi nerf, the Soulbeast has to play too carefully and cannot stay engaged like it used to be able to do to consistently contribute. Simply put, it lost its ability to brawl against other classes. I'm talking about same skill vs. same skill opponents here. Of course a good Soulbeast could out brawl nabs. Anyone on any class could do the same thing.

[Ryan.9387]

Okay if you change ranger to - overpowered duelist, pets need a rework. Tank builds should not have pets dealing 6k+ f2s.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

> @"Ryan.9387" said:

> Okay if you change ranger to - overpowered duelist, pets need a rework. Tank builds should not have pets dealing 6k+ f2s.

 

The Ranger Police has already established & acknowledged many times that the class Ranger is by default, always powerful as hell at the bell curve or bellow. But as soon as it gets above the bell curve, its viability very very quickly tappers off into this abysmal region where the class is just not viable at all competitively for several reasons. This has always made Ranger difficult for Arenanet to balance.

 

The two biggest reasons for the sudden volatile change in Ranger viability between bell curve and above bell curve:

 

1. Pet's effect very little in high tier play. Sometimes it's as if they aren't there at all. And other times they actually aren't there, because they explode too quickly in team fights against coordinated team damage.

2. Good players utilize LOS any & every chance they get = Extremely powerful mitigation vs. the purpose of Longbow play.

[Undertaker.4368]

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" thanks! This update looks good so far.

[Bast.7253]

Agree with tempest for sure. Deadeye is the same it’s always been. I tried out the marauder rifle build and it was terrible but the crit strikes shadow arts build is still decent. Just no point presence.

 

Core ranger needs nerfs! Druid is annoying when it’s running immob spam.

 

Warrior I don’t see that much anymore but it seems balanced for the most part.

 

Scrapped turret spam is annoying and they have more than enough sustain.

 

Scourge feels like a liability. Does next to no damage even running curses.

 

Mininon spam builds need to be looked at for necro.

 

Mesmer - core is fine. Chrono is garbage. Mirage is really a one shot burst Condi plus one now.

 

 

[Ithilwen.1529]

Mesmer is far from fine.

[Dantheman.3589]

For all thief classes-

Core- it is definitely ok. Decent core dp pressure, but it’s mobility is kind of bad- only good at countering other thief’s, core sword dagger is also ok as s/d is maybe the best set rn but there’s no reason to run acro in top tier rn so it’s just kind of for fun rn. Conclusion- good thief counter, still ok in ranked but not nearly as good as it was. Drops off at “bell curve” but consistent anywhere below “bell curve”

Daredevil- Still great mobility and don’t lose much dps taking + great sustain. Dp is pretty ok in this meta and having mobility makes it x2 as good. With acro nerfs sd is way better with this, so now it has better mobility of dp and is overall good everything especially unblockable with boon rip great sd damage. Conclusion- most consistent by far, can carry ranked like crazy and is good in most top tier at groups, unless you want a 100% team comp where it’s slightly worse than other classes

Deadeye- good rifle 2 damage and again good sd damage, terrible kneeling skills and countered by projectile hate. Can actually melt bunkers. But bad mobility, very bad actually but decent initiative management + slightly higher damage.

Conclusion: good, against potato comps. Still ok in ranked as it has been but just completely bad at “bell curve” as it isn’t playable into high level teams with roamers.

[Tayga.3192]

> @"cptaylor.2670" said:

> Mesmer - core is fine. Chrono is garbage. Mirage is really a one shot burst Condi plus one now.

 

Mirage is just a viable condi thief

 

Core is not fine, it's at best "barely viable".

[Ragnar.4257]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> Warrior - Fine

> Guardian - Fine

> Rev - Fine

> Ele - Fine

> Engi - Fine

> Thief - Fine

> Mesmer - Fine

> Necro - Fine

> Ranger - NOT VIABLE NEEDS BUFFS

 

Hmmmmmm, I wonder who wrote this.

 

[Bast.7253]

> @"Tayga.3192" said:

> > @"cptaylor.2670" said:

> > Mesmer - core is fine. Chrono is garbage. Mirage is really a one shot burst Condi plus one now.

>

> Mirage is just a viable condi thief

>

> Core is not fine, it's at best "barely viable".

 

Yeah, I don't know that I would take it into a ranked match. But it's pretty fun and decent in unranked. It's not really a dueling class or a sidenoder, but it still works good for wreaking havoc in team fights. So pretty much the same as a thief.

 

Power shatter at least. I've seen a few people pulling off weird bunker-y core condi/hybrid builds that seemed to never die. But I think that boils down to skill and build.

What would you suggest they do for core to make it more than "barely viable?"

 

 

[Raiden The Beast.3016]

Teef noodle dmg ...

[otto.5684]

> @"zoopop.5630" said:

> Soulbeast - No longer a viable competitive presence. The Maul & WI nerfs hit too hard.

>

> What? Still seeing rangers 100-0 People from time to time.

 

Kinda like core Mesmer. In P1 games and higher, you may sneak on someone and get a quick down. The next time you show up the entire enemy’s team will focus fire, with little tools to prevent it and no sustain to handle the damage.

 

One trick ponies die in G3. Anything from there on has to have tools to deal with most situations.

 

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" I have not played too much, especially after the mini patch.

 

For guardian:

 

Core not viable. I think it is slightly better than before. It is one of few power damage that can actually deal damage. But not enough to be anything but a nuisance for skilled players.

 

DH, power, not viable. LB is unusable. The only really effective PvP trap no longer deals damage. DH does not support melee game play in sPvP, due to lack of retaliation. Condi DH with Sword of Justice is the oNly semi viable DH build. But pretty easy to outplay. Does well with good team support.

 

FB, almost all mantras now are bad. Pre The large patch FB had multiple playable setups, between support, condi dps and hybrid. Anet did some right nerfs and other nerfs that can be only described as dumb. Result is nothing but zeal FB symbol spam remains competitive. I was never a fan of FB and only it’s worst aspects remain.

 

Overall, guardian, aside from FB symbol spam, is shit. And by all measures, it is worse now than any point in the last 3 years.

 

Condi rev is interesting. I think the only positive thing in the major patch (and had nothing with PvP patch) was the corruption reorganization. Also, renegade, is so much better than any point before. Not that it is competitive, but with certain setups it can work.

 

Power rev, it is not terrible. But not good either.

 

Warrior, core and berserker are same as before. Not really viable, but not absolutely unplayable. SB is being carried by the ridiculous number of spamable CC.

 

There are... Mesmers? I only see them suck, even in the hands of players I know to be good.

 

D/D all in all considered now, it needs a nerf to mobility.

 

Rangers, aside from side node trolling, has no viability. I guess not much has changed? But as with all power builds the low damage is so forgiving that enemies need to fuck up like 50 times before you can effectively down them.

 

I have not seen any eng suck or do good. I do not think it is bad but if your goal is to rank high, it is not the best option.

 

Ele, cannot determine. Tempest plays mostly as a troll bunker/CC build (so does before, SB, condi rev and FB). Which is the name of the game.

 

 

It is surely a terrible time for sPvP. I lost interest in it. It is a troll CC and condi spam with many builds having so much lewy that you can make so many mistakes before enemies with none heavy CC build can capitalize on it. It could be urged that the game now works better as a team game. Compared to before, where hard carry was more possible. However, considering the dwindling population, that is negatively effecting the match making system and how fucking slow the PvP has became, it is not a good idea.

 

 

 

[Arheundel.6451]

> @"otto.5684" said:

> > @"zoopop.5630" said:

> > Soulbeast - No longer a viable competitive presence. The Maul & WI nerfs hit too hard.

> >

> > What? Still seeing rangers 100-0 People from time to time.

>

> Kinda like core Mesmer. In P1 games and higher, you may sneak on someone and get a quick down. The next time you show up the entire enemy’s team will focus fire, with little tools to prevent it and no sustain to handle the damage.

>

> I trick ponies die in G3. Anything from there on has to have tools to deal with most situation.

>

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" I have not played too much, especially after the mini patch. For guardian:

>

> Core not viable. I think it is slightly better than before. It is one of few power damage that can actually deal damage. But not enough to be anything but a nuisance for skilled players.

>

> DH, power, not viable. LB is unusable. The only really effective PvP trap no longer deals damage. DH does not support melee game play in sPvP, due to lack of retaliation. Condi DH with Sword of Justice is the oNly semi viable DH build. But pretty easy to outplay. Does well with good team support.

>

> FB, almost all mantras now are not viable. Pre The large patch FB had multiple playable setups, between support, condi dps and hybrid. Anet did some right nerfs and other nerfs that can be only described as dumb. Result is nothing but zeal FB symbol spam remains competitive. I was never a fan of FB and only it’s worst aspects remain.

>

> Overall, guardian, aside from FB symbol spam, is kitten. And by all measures, it is worse now than any point in the last 3 years.

>

> Condi rev is interesting. I think the only positive thing in the major patch (and had nothing with PvP patch) was the corruption reorganization. Also, renegade, is so much better than any point before. Not that it is competitive, but with certain setups it can work.

>

> Power rev, it is not terrible. But not good either.

>

> Warrior, core and berserker are same as before. Not really viable, but not absolutely unplayable. SB is being carried by the ridiculous number of spamable CC.

>

> There are... Mesmers? I only see them suck, even in the hands of players I know to be good.

>

> D/D all in all considered now, it needs a nerf to mobility.

>

> Rangers, aside from side not trolling, has no viability. I guess not much has changed? But as with all power builds the low damage is so forgiving that enemies need to kitten up like 50 times before you can effectively down them.

>

> I have not seen any eng suck or do good. I do not think it is bad but if your goal is to rank high, it is not a good option.

>

> Ele, cannot determine. Tempest plays mostly as a troll bunker/CC build (so does before, SB, condi rev and FB). Which is the name of the game.

>

>

> It is surely a terrible time for sPvP. I lost interest in it. It is a troll CC and condi spam with many builds having so much lewy that you can make so many mistakes before enemies with none heavy CC build can capitalize on it. It could be urged that the game now works better as a team game. Compared to before, where hard carry was more possible. However, considering the dwindling population, that is negatively effecting the match making system and how kitten slow the PvP has became, it is not a good idea.

>

>

>

 

Best game analysis by far, nothing to add really..everything you've said is spot on!

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

> @"Ragnar.4257" said:

> > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > Warrior - Fine

> > Guardian - Fine

> > Rev - Fine

> > Ele - Fine

> > Engi - Fine

> > Thief - Fine

> > Mesmer - Fine

> > Necro - Fine

> > Ranger - NOT VIABLE NEEDS BUFFS

>

> Hmmmmmm, I wonder who wrote this.

>

 

Except that's nothing like what I actually said at all.

 

It truly concerns me that you've received helpfuls and thumbs up for this post.

 

Not a good sign for where this forum community is headed into year 9.

[Faux Play.6104]

> @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> Mesmer is far from fine.

 

Lol little bit of class bias. OP ranger main said ranger core was garbage, but justified other cores as ok due to being core. Sounds like Mesmer mains feel the same way about Mesmer core.

[Faux Play.6104]

Only major disagreement is scrappers need more sustain. That class was pure cancer when it came out due to too much sustain.

[jcbroe.4329]

So just some things to add, obviously all opinion:

 

* The mechanics of Terror and Lightning Rod are obnoxious in a post-patch world. I'm not saying that anything is overpowered here, but free, significant damage on CCs in a paradigm that otherwise aims to make you capitalize on your CC to do damage is counterintuitive. These need to be reworked. "Condis applied to CC'd targets last longer" and "CC a target causes lightning to strike the area, dealing damage, after a delay" or anything that isn't their current iteration would be preferable.

 

* Retribution Herald and Core Necro, under the right circumstances, feel like their ability to tank and sustain damage is much too high relative to the damage that was taken out of the game.

 

* Thief is fine, but at some point it would be nice to rework the class to add some non-evade, non-stealth based sustainability back to the class so that they can exist in fights better and then remove pieces of their mobility proportionately so that they are no longer able to freely and effortlessly decap points. Having the advantage in a direct race to a point is fine, but decapping should be more of a tactical decision then "hey nobody is there go get it for no risk."

 

* Ranger. Always seems to be a big talking point on this forum. Lots of people that got killed by something they don't understand and think is easy then say its unfair, but also lots of people underselling its strengths. To this day, the class needs a total pet rework. Pets are buggy and barely hit, and that's been used to justify their damage and CC potential, and that's amplified by the fact that pets are the only class mechanic that can be disabled. Pets should be on a flat cooldown, no death penalty. Their big skills should be player controlled skills, whether its CC or significant damage. And beyond that, they should only really function as an autoattack. Also, fix their pathing and ability to hit targets. Soulbeast is fine. It feels fine and plays fine. Problem is that it's polarizing because Sic Em is the only thing making it viable, but it's also the only spec that can teamfight because of pet death penalty on Core and Druid. Sic Em is a very large damage modifier that shouldn't exist in this meta, but because it's polarizing it makes changing the spec impossible before changing Sic Em.

 

* Core and Soulbeast share too much in this regard. Rework the pets as mentioned so there is no death penalty, and then Core is basically the damage spec, Druid is the support spec, and Soulbeast can be the tankier, "able to stand here in this fight and do my part and not kite constantly."

 

* Speaking of Druid, can it finally get reworked into the support it deserves to be? I really don't care if the damage gets gutted, it needs to have the ability to tow the line alongside FBs and Tempests.

 

* There are HoT classes that seem like they're underperforming because their PoF counterparts are still too bloated (FB and Holo as example), and they're HoT specs that seem abandoned or overly nerfed or under-power-crept with the rest of the game (besides Druid - Chrono, Berserker as examples).

 

* There are only 5 slots on a team so not every spec can be optimal, but it would be nice to see a global design paradigm of "power, condi, support" or "mobile, tanky, damage" or "support, duel, teamfight" applied to the various specs and have them designed to fulfill that purpose.

[Tayga.3192]

> @"cptaylor.2670" said:

> I've seen a few people pulling off weird bunker-y core condi/hybrid builds that seemed to never die. But I think that boils down to skill and build.

There are a few variants of it, but it's probably signets + sage amulet. I don't like it because it's just invulnspam and everyone can play it easily.

 

> What would you suggest they do for core to make it more than "barely viable?"

Currently it has no role. Anet needs to decide what should mesmer's class identity be, and then rework traitlines and weapons accordingly.

[apharma.3741]

Yes holo is fine.

 

 

Mind you I guess these 3 guys just need to learn to play, right?

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"cptaylor.2670" said:

> > @"Tayga.3192" said:

> > > @"cptaylor.2670" said:

> > > Mesmer - core is fine. Chrono is garbage. Mirage is really a one shot burst Condi plus one now.

> >

> > Mirage is just a viable condi thief

> >

> > Core is not fine, it's at best "barely viable".

>

> Yeah, I don't know that I would take it into a ranked match. But it's pretty fun and decent in unranked. It's not really a dueling class or a sidenoder, but it still works good for wreaking havoc in team fights. So pretty much the same as a thief.

>

> Power shatter at least. I've seen a few people pulling off weird bunker-y core condi/hybrid builds that seemed to never die. But I think that boils down to skill and build.

> What would you suggest they do for core to make it more than "barely viable?"

>

>

 

those tanky mesmer builds work becouse people dont understand how the work, if you take 5min to read the build you will very quickly realize that you win against that build by existing. they are forced to used F4 and invuln signets to sruvive, and thus they lose node over time. the damage they have is shit, so as long as you are not SUPER hardcountered, and survivable sidenoder should automatically win the 1v1 just by existing.

[Axl.8924]

> @"Faux Play.6104" said:

> > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > Mesmer is far from fine.

>

> Lol little bit of class bias. OP ranger main said ranger core was garbage but justified other cores as ok due to being core. Sounds like Mesmer mains feel the same way about Mesmer core.

 

There is always gonna be some class bias, and it's hard to know for sure unless you are a complete master and play at a high-level competition where you can say so and so the class is not competitive for so on reasons mechanically. There will always be bias on the side of nerfers and nerfees too.

 

I will admit I don't really know yet much about mes mechanically for SPVP other than when I PVP condis fall off. It feels rather slippery still and able to dodge a lot of people. Not sure how good it is in competitive mode.

 

When i played mes core with condi not sure how power is, condis were falling fof fast and doing very little dmg.

[apharma.3741]

> @"Axl.8924" said:

> > @"Faux Play.6104" said:

> > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > > Mesmer is far from fine.

> >

> > Lol little bit of class bias. OP ranger main said ranger core was garbage but justified other cores as ok due to being core. Sounds like Mesmer mains feel the same way about Mesmer core.

>

> There is always gonna be some class bias, and it's hard to know for sure unless you are a complete master and play at a high-level competition where you can say so and so the class is not competitive for so on reasons mechanically. There will always be bias on the side of nerfers and nerfees too.

>

> I will admit I don't really know yet much about mes mechanically for SPVP other than when I PVP condis fall off. It feels rather slippery still and able to dodge a lot of people. Not sure how good it is in competitive mode.

>

> When i played mes core with condi not sure how power is, condis were falling fof fast and doing very little dmg.

 

You don't have to be playing at the highest level to understand what is and isn't too strong as long as you're capable of perceiving and understanding is happening. It helps but you have to remember younger players are much faster and mechanically skilled over the older ones where the experience and knowledge of the older players tends to make up the difference.

 

Think about it, whenever a pro player in any e-sport not just GW2 says "watch out for this guy" it's usually the younger version of them and they tend to have the raw reaction time over the established pro.