Dawdler.8521

> @"Sobx.1758" said: > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > > > > > > I'm not "assuming" any more than you are -average player being bad is a fact. Downstate as a great safety net for bad players is a fact (which doesn't mean it's limited to strictly this reasoning for every player that wants to keep the downstate, in case you think I'm somehow trying to insult you here or w/e). Actually if we use *what you did* as a proof for anything (polls), then *most players/average player* wants the downstate to remain unchanged: > > > > > > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/97040/new-balance-patch-time-to-change-downstate > > > > > > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/75626/no-downstate-poll-please-read-post-first/p1 > > > > > > > > It's not an opt in. Skill is irrelevant, downstate is always there. I'd love to know how many times the absolute best players in WvW has been ressed. But maybe they are secretly bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course it's not. Of course anyone uses it *beacuse they have no choice* and if you get that soft cushon to fall on then why would you not use it while others do? But that still doesn't change anything about what I've said and what I said was never anything like "good players don't use it", which you seem to be answering to for some reason. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also for those votes, want to bet that *almost all* of the unchanged voters would still agree to a compromise if you argued with them? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't matter what you "want to bet on". You were talking about polls as a proof for *whatever claim*, now that the poll shows against what you've said, you suddenly don't care about what they show, but instead *want to bet*. Cool. But you're also doing exactly what I said -these limited polls are only relevant when they show what I (in this case: *you*) want them to show. So it's clear what and why you're doing right now. Again, your "bets" don't change anything about what I've said in my previous posts, but they sure show that you'll try to use double standards when taking those ""undeniable proofs"" as actual proofs based pretty much solely on the fact whether or not they confirm *your opinion*. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Leaving it unchanged is probably mostly a knee-jerk reaction to delete being in the poll. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, these things are not equivalent -not even close. > > > > > > > > Oh but they are eqvivalent and they are close. Just like when people say "well downstate is a little OP" and the knee-jerk reaction is "dElEtE DowNsTaTe!1!!", so has pretty much any argument with thief and its... lets just say liberal use of... stealth been. Delete the thief. Problem solved. If you consider deleting downstate a valid point then there are no ifs or buts. I can **easily** argue that combat stealth gameplay has no place in competitive PvP. So delete thief, it's a crutch for bad players that is a fact. Because *obviously*. Other classes have it too, true. Delete them too then. Its not possible to go *too* far, is it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course that would be stupid. Because despite what "problems" it has, the thief is a part of the game and it offers a unique playstyle unlike any other class because, well its the thief. I'm sure many people love playing the thief. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Downed state is a core gameplay element of GW2 and offers a unique playstyle unlike most other games, it's one of the reasons many people like playing GW2. It adds another tactical element to combat - sometimes for good, sometimes for bad - and plays on the human emotions of wanting to help people in need and if you can help them, they may return the favor and help you when you need it. Just what a true MMO should do rather than just skill clicking muscle memory to kill the enemy dead with boomboom and pewpew. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope, not even close to being equivalent and I (as well as many other people) don't even "say *well downstate is a little OP*". Really, that it NOT what many people, including me said, so not sure why would I even read the rest when your initial claim about what I say is straight up false. And no, for me it's not a "knee jerk reaction", no matter how many times you'll try to claim it is just because it's an "easy out" for you. Just like before literally the only reason you try to claim it surely is a "kNeE jErK rEaCtIoN!1!!!" is because you want to claim that the average people have the same opinion like you, which is as baseless as it was above. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tl;dr of your key points from 2 last responses to me: > > > > > > > Someone has an opinion that's different than mine? WELL, THEY ARE *JUST MAKING UP OPPOSING ARGUMENT* AND *IT WAS A KNEE JERK REACTION*! > > > > > > > [yup, actual quotes] > > > > > > Something something people willing to compromise trying to argue with people that will never compromise. > > > > > > > > > > You're not *willing to compromise*, you're literally just repeating your opinion and sticking to it while picking and choosing when the same argument is relevant or not based solely on the fact whether or not it supports your opinion ("*according to polls/majority/average player I'm correct*" ..."*well, if the polls show I'm not correct, then it means that the voters didn't understand what they vote for and now my unchanged opinion is a compromise*"). This is not what a "compromise" is and nobody says there always needs to be one. > > > > > > > > > > Nice try at pretending you're taking into consideration anything that anyone else says though. > > > > What does deleting downstate compromise with those that want to keep it? > > > > > > How is your long-held opinion suddenly a compromise with anything else? It's not, it's unchanged since the beginning. > > > > > > > But yeah I admit defeat. It's pointless unless you can answer that question. > > > > > > It's pointless when you're pretending you're going for a compromise, when you're clearly not, but it's an easy out for you to disregard anything that was written before, including the obvious double standards about accepting "proof" for anything based on whether or not it shows what you want it to show. > > > > > > And again: I'm not sure where that idea that everything needs/should end in a compromise came from, but it's not a general truth and not some kind of *the best solution for any case*. > > The compromise is to nerf downstate, to the point I even suggest to fully delete a part of it (rally). Something I think most people will find acceptable because it doesnt change the core aspect of downstate, it has less impact on smallscale and more impact on large scale and it also remove a "toxic" aspect, ie just leaving the downed or complaining that they rally the enemy. We are talking about an existing part of the game that we have had for 8 years. Again: > > > > **What does deleting downstate compromise with those that want to keep it?** > > What exactly don't you understand about what I wrote in my previous posts? > From what I know there are 3 prevaling "general" options in regards to downstate: > a) leave it > b) nerf it > c) delete it. > > "nerf it" COULD be called a compromise between the option "a" and "c", but you've always held an opinion "b", at which point stop pretending you're "wishing to compromise", because you're not. Just because it seems that your opinion might be a compromise between the other options does nothing for you "being willingful to compromise with others", so stop pretending you are just because you got called out on your double standards. > Not only that, but claiming that "compromise" is the best option, because it "kind of could make everyone happy" is false and by far isn't an overall rule. Many times those "compromises" aren't even close to actual good/optimal solutions, so stop pretending you're taking this stance for the overal wellbeing of the playerbase *or whatever*, because as I've already wrote multiple times above **-which btw you keep constantly dodging-** "most players" (something you were trying to use to speak against *one of the options you didn't like*) wanted the downstate to remain **unchanged**. To which the only thing you were able to say is a pretty hilarious response that claimed "*those players didn't know what they were voting for* aaaand *that must have been a knee-jerk reaction*". > > Don't come up with new questions when you're constantly dodging the facts about what you've done in this thread multiple times already, beacuse what you're writing here about "willingness to compromise" is pretty clearly dishonest. > > > Semi-related: can someone remind me if downstate got nerfed after the february patch? I wasnt really going to reply because I dont even understand what you are trying to say anymore, but what the heck. Did you actually **read** the poll threads you posted instead of just looking at the percentages? Replies arent black and white and offer a far more nuanced take. And yes, it is my *opinion* that if Anet says they're nerfing downstate, I *believe* most of those that want to keep it - and many of those that want to delete it for that matter - will just say "ok sounds good Anet at least you're doing something". The compromise isnt for me. I dont care if downstate remain as it is until the end of days. The compromise is for those that believe it should be removed. To make less people see downstate as a detriment at minimal cost to downstate itself. You accepted it as a compromise in the first post you made - which shows that maybe it was a decent compromise? - but then you seem to have forgotten about that.

> @"kamikharzeeh.8016" said: > thing is, if u get downed in spvp, most of the times u better die fast, unless u have lots of HP left and the enemy also downed and cleavable. > > in Wvw, rally is way more present, but also - in a strong bomb with woke enemies, you'll just get cleaved away in seconds. but it'd mess up class identity if u gave everyone the same downed skills. i see no sense in that. it's priority to not ever get into downed status anyways. > > (but even more, i'd against resing full dead ones. just make em autoport back to spawn...) I agree on the class identity part, I prefer saying "that's a guardian downed, look out for the knockback, pop stab!" than just an enemy being down with generic skills. IMO it only adds to the game and the tactical combat. As mentioned above *some* downed skills are still an issue but overall its not a big issue. It would be even less of an issue with harder penalties. Cant really agree on the removing fully dead res though. As with varied downed skills, I think it it only adds to the game and if we imagine a nerf instead - 1:1 ressing specifically - it would be take far longer to res and you couldnt just send 5 out of combat people to res someone fast near a battle.

> @"Sobx.1758" said: > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > > > > I'm not "assuming" any more than you are -average player being bad is a fact. Downstate as a great safety net for bad players is a fact (which doesn't mean it's limited to strictly this reasoning for every player that wants to keep the downstate, in case you think I'm somehow trying to insult you here or w/e). Actually if we use *what you did* as a proof for anything (polls), then *most players/average player* wants the downstate to remain unchanged: > > > > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/97040/new-balance-patch-time-to-change-downstate > > > > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/75626/no-downstate-poll-please-read-post-first/p1 > > > > > > It's not an opt in. Skill is irrelevant, downstate is always there. I'd love to know how many times the absolute best players in WvW has been ressed. But maybe they are secretly bad. > > > > > > > > > > Of course it's not. Of course anyone uses it *beacuse they have no choice* and if you get that soft cushon to fall on then why would you not use it while others do? But that still doesn't change anything about what I've said and what I said was never anything like "good players don't use it", which you seem to be answering to for some reason. > > > > > > > > > > > Also for those votes, want to bet that *almost all* of the unchanged voters would still agree to a compromise if you argued with them? > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't matter what you "want to bet on". You were talking about polls as a proof for *whatever claim*, now that the poll shows against what you've said, you suddenly don't care about what they show, but instead *want to bet*. Cool. But you're also doing exactly what I said -these limited polls are only relevant when they show what I (in this case: *you*) want them to show. So it's clear what and why you're doing right now. Again, your "bets" don't change anything about what I've said in my previous posts, but they sure show that you'll try to use double standards when taking those ""undeniable proofs"" as actual proofs based pretty much solely on the fact whether or not they confirm *your opinion*. > > > > > > > > > > >Leaving it unchanged is probably mostly a knee-jerk reaction to delete being in the poll. > > > > > > > > > > Nope. > > > > > > > > > > > > No, these things are not equivalent -not even close. > > > > > > Oh but they are eqvivalent and they are close. Just like when people say "well downstate is a little OP" and the knee-jerk reaction is "dElEtE DowNsTaTe!1!!", so has pretty much any argument with thief and its... lets just say liberal use of... stealth been. Delete the thief. Problem solved. If you consider deleting downstate a valid point then there are no ifs or buts. I can **easily** argue that combat stealth gameplay has no place in competitive PvP. So delete thief, it's a crutch for bad players that is a fact. Because *obviously*. Other classes have it too, true. Delete them too then. Its not possible to go *too* far, is it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course that would be stupid. Because despite what "problems" it has, the thief is a part of the game and it offers a unique playstyle unlike any other class because, well its the thief. I'm sure many people love playing the thief. > > > > > > > > > > > > Downed state is a core gameplay element of GW2 and offers a unique playstyle unlike most other games, it's one of the reasons many people like playing GW2. It adds another tactical element to combat - sometimes for good, sometimes for bad - and plays on the human emotions of wanting to help people in need and if you can help them, they may return the favor and help you when you need it. Just what a true MMO should do rather than just skill clicking muscle memory to kill the enemy dead with boomboom and pewpew. > > > > > > > > > > Nope, not even close to being equivalent and I (as well as many other people) don't even "say *well downstate is a little OP*". Really, that it NOT what many people, including me said, so not sure why would I even read the rest when your initial claim about what I say is straight up false. And no, for me it's not a "knee jerk reaction", no matter how many times you'll try to claim it is just because it's an "easy out" for you. Just like before literally the only reason you try to claim it surely is a "kNeE jErK rEaCtIoN!1!!!" is because you want to claim that the average people have the same opinion like you, which is as baseless as it was above. > > > > > > > > > > tl;dr of your key points from 2 last responses to me: > > > > > Someone has an opinion that's different than mine? WELL, THEY ARE *JUST MAKING UP OPPOSING ARGUMENT* AND *IT WAS A KNEE JERK REACTION*! > > > > > [yup, actual quotes] > > > > Something something people willing to compromise trying to argue with people that will never compromise. > > > > > > You're not *willing to compromise*, you're literally just repeating your opinion and sticking to it while picking and choosing when the same argument is relevant or not based solely on the fact whether or not it supports your opinion ("*according to polls/majority/average player I'm correct*" ..."*well, if the polls show I'm not correct, then it means that the voters didn't understand what they vote for and now my unchanged opinion is a compromise*"). This is not what a "compromise" is and nobody says there always needs to be one. > > > > > > Nice try at pretending you're taking into consideration anything that anyone else says though. > > What does deleting downstate compromise with those that want to keep it? > > How is your long-held opinion suddenly a compromise with anything else? It's not, it's unchanged since the beginning. > > > But yeah I admit defeat. It's pointless unless you can answer that question. > > It's pointless when you're pretending you're going for a compromise, when you're clearly not, but it's an easy out for you to disregard anything that was written before, including the obvious double standards about accepting "proof" for anything based on whether or not it shows what you want it to show. > > And again: I'm not sure where that idea that everything needs/should end in a compromise came from, but it's not a general truth and not some kind of *the best solution for any case*. The compromise is to nerf downstate, to the point I even suggest to fully delete a part of it (rally). Something I think most people will find acceptable because it doesnt change the core aspect of downstate, it has less impact on smallscale and more impact on large scale and it also remove a "toxic" aspect, ie just leaving the downed or complaining that they rally the enemy. We are talking about an existing part of the game that we have had for 8 years. Again: **What does deleting downstate compromise with those that want to keep it?**

> @"Sobx.1758" said: > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > > I'm not "assuming" any more than you are -average player being bad is a fact. Downstate as a great safety net for bad players is a fact (which doesn't mean it's limited to strictly this reasoning for every player that wants to keep the downstate, in case you think I'm somehow trying to insult you here or w/e). Actually if we use *what you did* as a proof for anything (polls), then *most players/average player* wants the downstate to remain unchanged: > > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/97040/new-balance-patch-time-to-change-downstate > > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/75626/no-downstate-poll-please-read-post-first/p1 > > > > It's not an opt in. Skill is irrelevant, downstate is always there. I'd love to know how many times the absolute best players in WvW has been ressed. But maybe they are secretly bad. > > > > > > Of course it's not. Of course anyone uses it *beacuse they have no choice* and if you get that soft cushon to fall on then why would you not use it while others do? But that still doesn't change anything about what I've said and what I said was never anything like "good players don't use it", which you seem to be answering to for some reason. > > > > > > > Also for those votes, want to bet that *almost all* of the unchanged voters would still agree to a compromise if you argued with them? > > > > > > It doesn't matter what you "want to bet on". You were talking about polls as a proof for *whatever claim*, now that the poll shows against what you've said, you suddenly don't care about what they show, but instead *want to bet*. Cool. But you're also doing exactly what I said -these limited polls are only relevant when they show what I (in this case: *you*) want them to show. So it's clear what and why you're doing right now. Again, your "bets" don't change anything about what I've said in my previous posts, but they sure show that you'll try to use double standards when taking those ""undeniable proofs"" as actual proofs based pretty much solely on the fact whether or not they confirm *your opinion*. > > > > > > >Leaving it unchanged is probably mostly a knee-jerk reaction to delete being in the poll. > > > > > > Nope. > > > > > > > > No, these things are not equivalent -not even close. > > > > Oh but they are eqvivalent and they are close. Just like when people say "well downstate is a little OP" and the knee-jerk reaction is "dElEtE DowNsTaTe!1!!", so has pretty much any argument with thief and its... lets just say liberal use of... stealth been. Delete the thief. Problem solved. If you consider deleting downstate a valid point then there are no ifs or buts. I can **easily** argue that combat stealth gameplay has no place in competitive PvP. So delete thief, it's a crutch for bad players that is a fact. Because *obviously*. Other classes have it too, true. Delete them too then. Its not possible to go *too* far, is it. > > > > > > > > Of course that would be stupid. Because despite what "problems" it has, the thief is a part of the game and it offers a unique playstyle unlike any other class because, well its the thief. I'm sure many people love playing the thief. > > > > > > > > Downed state is a core gameplay element of GW2 and offers a unique playstyle unlike most other games, it's one of the reasons many people like playing GW2. It adds another tactical element to combat - sometimes for good, sometimes for bad - and plays on the human emotions of wanting to help people in need and if you can help them, they may return the favor and help you when you need it. Just what a true MMO should do rather than just skill clicking muscle memory to kill the enemy dead with boomboom and pewpew. > > > > > > Nope, not even close to being equivalent and I (as well as many other people) don't even "say *well downstate is a little OP*". Really, that it NOT what many people, including me said, so not sure why would I even read the rest when your initial claim about what I say is straight up false. And no, for me it's not a "knee jerk reaction", no matter how many times you'll try to claim it is just because it's an "easy out" for you. Just like before literally the only reason you try to claim it surely is a "kNeE jErK rEaCtIoN!1!!!" is because you want to claim that the average people have the same opinion like you, which is as baseless as it was above. > > > > > > tl;dr of your key points from 2 last responses to me: > > > Someone has an opinion that's different than mine? WELL, THEY ARE *JUST MAKING UP OPPOSING ARGUMENT* AND *IT WAS A KNEE JERK REACTION*! > > > [yup, actual quotes] > > Something something people willing to compromise trying to argue with people that will never compromise. > > You're not *willing to compromise*, you're literally just repeating your opinion and sticking to it while picking and choosing when the same argument is relevant or not based solely on the fact whether or not it supports your opinion ("*according to polls/majority/average player I'm correct*" ..."*well, if the polls show I'm not correct, then it means that the voters didn't understand what they vote for and now my unchanged opinion is a compromise*"). This is not what a "compromise" is and nobody says there always needs to be one. > > Nice try at pretending you're taking into consideration anything that anyone else says though. What does deleting downstate compromise with those that want to keep it? But yeah I admit defeat. It's pointless unless you can answer that question.

> @"Sobx.1758" said: > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > I'm not "assuming" any more than you are -average player being bad is a fact. Downstate as a great safety net for bad players is a fact (which doesn't mean it's limited to strictly this reasoning for every player that wants to keep the downstate, in case you think I'm somehow trying to insult you here or w/e). Actually if we use *what you did* as a proof for anything (polls), then *most players/average player* wants the downstate to remain unchanged: > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/97040/new-balance-patch-time-to-change-downstate > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/75626/no-downstate-poll-please-read-post-first/p1 > > It's not an opt in. Skill is irrelevant, downstate is always there. I'd love to know how many times the absolute best players in WvW has been ressed. But maybe they are secretly bad. > > Of course it's not. Of course anyone uses it *beacuse they have no choice* and if you get that soft cushon to fall on then why would you not use it while others do? But that still doesn't change anything about what I've said and what I said was never anything like "good players don't use it", which you seem to be answering to for some reason. > > > Also for those votes, want to bet that *almost all* of the unchanged voters would still agree to a compromise if you argued with them? > > It doesn't matter what you "want to bet on". You were talking about polls as a proof for *whatever claim*, now that the poll shows against what you've said, you suddenly don't care about what they show, but instead *want to bet*. Cool. But you're also doing exactly what I said -these limited polls are only relevant when they show what I (in this case: *you*) want them to show. So it's clear what and why you're doing right now. Again, your "bets" don't change anything about what I've said in my previous posts, but they sure show that you'll try to use double standards when taking those ""undeniable proofs"" as actual proofs based pretty much solely on the fact whether or not they confirm *your opinion*. > > >Leaving it unchanged is probably mostly a knee-jerk reaction to delete being in the poll. > > Nope. > > > > No, these things are not equivalent -not even close. > > Oh but they are eqvivalent and they are close. Just like when people say "well downstate is a little OP" and the knee-jerk reaction is "dElEtE DowNsTaTe!1!!", so has pretty much any argument with thief and its... lets just say liberal use of... stealth been. Delete the thief. Problem solved. If you consider deleting downstate a valid point then there are no ifs or buts. I can **easily** argue that combat stealth gameplay has no place in competitive PvP. So delete thief, it's a crutch for bad players that is a fact. Because *obviously*. Other classes have it too, true. Delete them too then. Its not possible to go *too* far, is it. > > > > Of course that would be stupid. Because despite what "problems" it has, the thief is a part of the game and it offers a unique playstyle unlike any other class because, well its the thief. I'm sure many people love playing the thief. > > > > Downed state is a core gameplay element of GW2 and offers a unique playstyle unlike most other games, it's one of the reasons many people like playing GW2. It adds another tactical element to combat - sometimes for good, sometimes for bad - and plays on the human emotions of wanting to help people in need and if you can help them, they may return the favor and help you when you need it. Just what a true MMO should do rather than just skill clicking muscle memory to kill the enemy dead with boomboom and pewpew. > > Nope, not even close to being equivalent and I (as well as many other people) don't even "say *well downstate is a little OP*". Really, that it NOT what many people, including me said, so not sure why would I even read the rest when your initial claim about what I say is straight up false. And no, for me it's not a "knee jerk reaction", no matter how many times you'll try to claim it is just because it's an "easy out" for you. Just like before literally the only reason you try to claim it surely is a "kNeE jErK rEaCtIoN!1!!!" is because you want to claim that the average people have the same opinion like you, which is as baseless as it was above. > > tl;dr of your key points from 2 last responses to me: > Someone has an opinion that's different than mine? WELL, THEY ARE *JUST MAKING UP OPPOSING ARGUMENT* AND *IT WAS A KNEE JERK REACTION*! > [yup, actual quotes] Something something people willing to compromise trying to argue with people that will never compromise.

> @"Sobx.1758" said: > I'm not "assuming" any more than you are -average player being bad is a fact. Downstate as a great safety net for bad players is a fact (which doesn't mean it's limited to strictly this reasoning for every player that wants to keep the downstate, in case you think I'm somehow trying to insult you here or w/e). Actually if we use *what you did* as a proof for anything (polls), then *most players/average player* wants the downstate to remain unchanged: > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/97040/new-balance-patch-time-to-change-downstate > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/75626/no-downstate-poll-please-read-post-first/p1 It's not an opt in. Skill is irrelevant, downstate is always there. I'd love to know how many times the absolute best players in WvW has been ressed. But maybe they are secretly bad. Also for those votes, want to bet that *almost all* of the unchanged voters would still agree to a compromise if you argued with them? Leaving it unchanged is probably mostly a knee-jerk reaction to delete being in the poll. > No, these things are not equivalent -not even close. Oh but they are eqvivalent and they are close. Just like when people say "well downstate is a little OP" and the knee-jerk reaction is "dElEtE DowNsTaTe!1!!", so has pretty much any argument with thief and its... lets just say liberal use of... stealth been. Delete the thief. Problem solved. If you consider deleting downstate a valid point then there are no ifs or buts. I can **easily** argue that combat stealth gameplay has no place in competitive PvP. So delete thief, it's a crutch for bad players that is a fact. Because *obviously*. Other classes have it too, true. Delete them too then. Its not possible to go *too* far, is it. Of course that would be stupid. Because despite what "problems" it has, the thief is a part of the game and it offers a unique playstyle unlike any other class because, well its the thief. I'm sure many people love playing the thief. Downed state is a core gameplay element of GW2 and offers a unique playstyle unlike most other games, it's one of the reasons many people like playing GW2. It adds another tactical element to combat - sometimes for good, sometimes for bad - and plays on the human emotions of wanting to help people in need and if you can help them, they may return the favor and help you when you need it. Just what a true MMO should do rather than just skill clicking muscle memory to kill the enemy dead with boomboom and pewpew.

> @"Sobx.1758" said: > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > As poll after poll after poll has showed, **the community want downstate to remain**. Yet again we land in the stupid scenario where people that can compromise have to argue with people that completely refuse to compromise. > > A forum poll is a small subset of overall playerbase and isn't "what the community wants" btw. > I mean obviously it is, when it shows what I want it to show and only then, but I'm pretty sure you know it works exactly the same for you :D > > Ah and lets not forget that *the average player* wants downstate to remain **unchanged**, because *the average player* is, well, bad and downstate is what saves their butts when they hug their groups and fail ^^ The *average player* describes a vast majority of the players. But you are assuming they see downed state as black and white as fervent deleters see it. They dont, I think most can agree on nerfs. Not everyone can agree on the *same* nerfs (as evidenced by these forums over the years) but still, I have seen few argue it should remain unchanged just for the sake of it. You're just making up an opposing argument. At the end of the day, deleting downstate is just as silly as deleting thief because people rant about stealth. It doesnt stop anyone from saying delete the thief. Its just that no one listens to it, as the suggestion rightly deserves.

> @"Chips.7968" said: > A desperate plea from those that are downed? Remove downed state. There we go. > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > @"Chips.7968" said: > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > Thieves when specced for stealth when they down in stealth can end up in a situation where they can literally heal 100% while having 100% stealth. Edit: well, ele mist form going through portals can be considered a third. > > > > > > You can AoE and cleave the thief even if you can't see them. Invis != invul, and anything that interrupts that heal is going to make them struggle to self res from stealth. Thief teleport stomp is also one of their most powerful utilities being used up to secure a kill and there are counter plays to it too. > > > > > > the real problem with downed state in Wvw is... downed state. Just get rid of it. > > Your argument would be valid they didnt also have teleport in downed state which move them out of AoE. Not to mention if they down in stealth you dont know exactly where they downed to begin with. > > > > Either way, as I said, overall the skills are irrelevant to issues of downed state anyway. > > Your complaint is VERY circumstantial though. To have that much stealth they've basically stacked it before going down. Or it's shadow refuge. The amount of fights against thieves whereby they've managed to self res from stealth is... in my experience... as a thief... > > > Zero. > > It really isn't a problem. Also, nothing to do with downed state per se either. It's mixing utility skills prior to going down, to going down, to then teleporting from down in stealth gained before going down. Perhaps they were never downed in the first place rather than they were downed and that last second shadow refuge gave them so much stealth they teleported a whole 700 to res. > > Here's a better solution to all woes. REMOVE DOWNED STATE FROM ALL NON PVE MODES. > > All problems fixed. No OP downed state. No OP stomps. No OP unfair can't beat a player from downed state while they're still up etc. All fixed. All problems "fixed" by making GW2 a shadow of itself, making combat shallow and narrowminded. Thief pun intended. Since you seem so keen on totally ignoring my entire post, that was exactly my point. Some classes has very circumstantial issues with downstate, yes. Ranger underwater. Thief that's stacked alot of stealth before downing. Elementalists near doors. And just like I also said, nothing of this is really a problem. That's not the main issue with downed state. As poll after poll after poll has showed, **the community want downstate to remain**. Yet again we land in the stupid scenario where people that can compromise have to argue with people that completely refuse to compromise.

> @"Svez Poizon XD.5268" said: > All i am saying is that i do up to 50k to 200k damage with quick combo, moving back for reset then going in again with range setup whitin 5 to 10 seconds. Can you do it to a single dagger thief about to backstab and stun you for 80-120% of your HP pool in melee range?

> @"Chips.7968" said: > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > Thieves when specced for stealth when they down in stealth can end up in a situation where they can literally heal 100% while having 100% stealth. Edit: well, ele mist form going through portals can be considered a third. > > You can AoE and cleave the thief even if you can't see them. Invis != invul, and anything that interrupts that heal is going to make them struggle to self res from stealth. Thief teleport stomp is also one of their most powerful utilities being used up to secure a kill and there are counter plays to it too. > > the real problem with downed state in Wvw is... downed state. Just get rid of it. Your argument would be valid they didnt also have teleport in downed state which move them out of AoE. Not to mention if they down in stealth you dont know exactly where they downed to begin with. Either way, as I said, overall the skills are irrelevant to issues of downed state anyway.

Tbh I find this thread completely wrong except for some downedstate "exploits". The classes listed as bad? Thats the good downed states. I would add most other classes to that list as well. Yes they vary some in single target or AoE, but thats fine. Its certain other that are OP. Thief and ranger are the two offenders IMO. Ranger specifically in underwater downedstate, they become basicly immortal. Thieves when specced for stealth when they down in stealth can end up in a situation where they can literally heal 100% while having 100% stealth. Edit: well, ele mist form going through portals can be considered a third. On top of that, arguing that downedstate is OP then argue that skills that help stomp is OP is wrong. Especially for a class that you list as one of the "worst" downed states having one of the "best" stomps, the engie. Yeah you win some you loose some. Again the thief stands out as the one being an "offender", but this aspect is pretty meaningless. Overall, the skills are irrelevant. The things that is wrong with downed state remain: **There should be 1:1 healing restriction** *<- delete power res* **Rally should be removed** *<- delete rally botting, more teamwork to res* **Downed penalty should be upped to 33% (ie 3 states with 66% HP start, instead of 4 with 75% HP start)** *<- harder penalties, more time to stomp* **Downed penalty timer should be 3x longer per state** *<- harder penalties* When this is done you can even buff some downed state skills, yes.

All classes have ranged and melee. Your basic argument for an imbalance based on class fails. Also most of the fastest runners are melee. In fact most of the strongest 1v1 builds are either fully melee or heavy melee with backup ranged, with only a few being fully dedicated ranged (soulbeast pewpew most notably). I find this thread terribly misguided with some points on buffing particular melee that make it what I can only assume is a joke.

> @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said: > Necro MM with Lich. Summon minions, AA. Need burst? hit Lich form then keep using AA until target is dead. I wouldnt call a necro with enough oomph to actually use lich form effectivly to be "super casual" since it's going to get roflstomped by most enemies unless it got a good driver. Especially if we are talking roaming. But granted I am biased since when I see a lich form necro I generally just laugh and moa them.

I think I have 8000+ hours in GW2 now. I still havent done a single raid. Or gotten past T1 fractals. Or done any strike missions for that matter. I think I've unlocked 10% of all available skins. I feel no need to grind any of it.

You want to know the super secret solution to this problem that WvW veterens like to keep quiet about? Just take hills.