ASP.8093

My rule of thumb is: "I'm getting insta-downed a bit too often" = add a moderate amount of Vitality, "I want to absorb a ton of punishment, just straight-up solo brawl with champions and stuff" = add a lot of Toughness, a moderate amount of Vitality, and make sure you have Protection uptime and condi cleanse, possibly also Healing Power depending on the build.

Part of that is just that it's really easy to get "a moderate amount of Vitality" on otherwise offensively-oriented gear(Marauder's).

> @"Yggranya.5201" said:

> > @"uberkingkong.8041" said:

> > They teach real players how to stomp properly.

>

> My guestion is: why? It isn't used in PvE, so how would that benefit anyone playing PvE? If you think something like this would encourage me to try PvP, you are dead wrong.

> If cantha is some free for all PvP thing, at least i can say for certain that i won't touch it. I might ignore it anyway, but this would be anet telling me, clear as day, that it isn't for me and i should ignore it. You might not say straight you want open world PvP, but i'm sure that is what this is all about. It's ALWAYS about PvP with people like you.

Stomping downs is fun and cool. Once you get some downs, the fight becomes *about* those downs for a few seconds, trying to finish or save them with well-timed application of AOE damage, defensive skills, and CC. Securing a stomp under pressure feels real good, like you just scored a goal for your team. There are frustrating aspects to it in PvP/WvW as well, but in PvE you can can focus on the fun part because the down-state abilities and healing mechanics don't actually have to be symmetric since the opponents aren't built using the same rules as the players.

IME, Guardian makes it easier to hard carry in Fractals: Healbrand is the best healer for single-handedly saving an otherwise outmatched group (not just heals and DPS buffs but also mechanic-negating tricks like Reflect, Stability, and Aegis), and you can easily transition to a full-damage role (like Dragonhunter or Condibrand) when wanted. (Druid is often a stronger healer for 10-person raid content, so expect to usually be playing DPS or support+DPS in raids.)

Revenant is a great class that can do most of the same things, but sometimes you pay more for it -- e.g. getting good reflect uptime requires babysitting the Ventari tablet, which is kinda tedious gameplay. Alacrigade is highly sought-after by good groups (and there's often a shortage), but it's harder to save a struggling group with Alacrigade than it is with Healbrand.

Honestly, though? Try both out some (maybe just make a level 2 character, go to the PvP test lobby, copy a standard support build for each, and try rolling through the skills next to a golem -- a lot of them will have different scaling, but you're just looking at pure "feel" -- would you rather flip tomes or flip legends? -- rather than actual output). Neither completely eclipses the other, so whatever you're more likely to stick to and feel good playing is the better choice.

> @"Atomos.7593" said:

> > @"ASP.8093" said:

> > > @"Atomos.7593" said:

> > > I think that condi builds (even the AoE focused ones) that are not purely bunker based are fine. I have no problems countering them on my elementalist, necromancer or warrior, or just simply avoiding the AoE condi traps.

> > >

> > > Here I'm referring exclusively to the AoE condi skills that can be easily spammed in large groups in tight areas, sometimes resulting in a virtual stalemate between both sides where each side is too afraid to run in and initiate a fight because there are too many AoE condi effects blocking the only path. Some classic examples of areas in WvW where this frequently occurs are in the ogre camp and dredge tunnel entrances/exits.

> > >

> > > Perhaps these kinds of situations were not intended by the devs with how the skills currently work, but this is the end result anyway. IMO these resultant stalemate situations are extremely boring and require little skill.

> >

> > You mean Wells and Marks? Those are mostly Power damage.

>

> No. Firebrands are a good example of a class that has a lot of AoE condi damage skills such as in [this](https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Firebrand_-_Condi_DPS) build.

You mean this: https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Guardian_-_Burn_Guard

Which is relying heavily on dropping Wall of Reflection in chokes to apply its damage, and can be most easily countered by pushing in melee (your own Firebrands drop their Resistance fields and the spinny sword, which is their hardest direct condi application, does nothing during the first critical parts of the engagement).

A PvE-style Condibrand like the one you posted is dead meat in WvW: you're a fragile porcelain doll with no mobility that needs to be in melee range to apply your big burn stacks.

> @"Atomos.7593" said:

> I think that condi builds (even the AoE focused ones) that are not purely bunker based are fine. I have no problems countering them on my elementalist, necromancer or warrior, or just simply avoiding the AoE condi traps.

>

> Here I'm referring exclusively to the AoE condi skills that can be easily spammed in large groups in tight areas, sometimes resulting in a virtual stalemate between both sides where each side is too afraid to run in and initiate a fight because there are too many AoE condi effects blocking the only path. Some classic examples of areas in WvW where this frequently occurs are in the ogre camp and dredge tunnel entrances/exits.

>

> Perhaps these kinds of situations were not intended by the devs with how the skills currently work, but this is the end result anyway. IMO these resultant stalemate situations are extremely boring and require little skill.

You mean Wells and Marks? Those are mostly Power damage.

> @"Atomos.7593" said:

> > @"Tyncale.1629" said:

> > I think Toughness should mitigate Condi damage too.

>

> This would make an interesting change to WvW at least, since the most popular builds in that mode seem to be only made to spam AoE condi in areas.

>

> I can't even count how many times I've seen massive blobs of guilds in WvW running around and stacking purely to spam AoE condis and heals, probably trying to never die and get easy kills from the players that fall for these condi traps.

The mainstays for damage in WvW are still Hammer Rev and Power Scourge, still. Condi zerg comps do exist but they can have a hard time against enemy groups with a lot of cleansing from Scrappers, Spellbreakers, and Tempests in support roles. (Or you can play Burn Guard solo and try to catch people with lots of burning from reflects.) It's really not a condition meta overall, despite how much power condition builds enjoy in WvW thanks to gear with Expertise on it.

Roaming, too, you'll see some bunkery condition builds (Torment Renegade/Herald, Fear Core Necro, sometimes a Mirage, Thief, or Druid as well) but they haven't edged out normal Power burst builds for Holo, Soulbeast, Daredevil/Deadeye, Spellbreaker, Sword-Sword Herald, or Reaper.

Love to define the entire metagame as a "problem."

> @"DaVid Darksoul.4985" said:

> Many commanders now run invis tags due to sniping. Try calling out in Team chat asking if anyone wants toparty-up with you. Explain you are new to WvW and want to learn by running with others. That works sometimes, as long as you don't let map know you really have no interest in WvW.

It's not sniping, they just don't want the rallybot tail.

> @"Mokk.2397" said:

> Don't worry . Neither Soul Beast or Thief are over powered what so ever . The complaining is coming from clueless Meta Battle players that get caught away from squad nothing more.

Let us harvest their tears.

> @"kamikharzeeh.8016" said:

> soulbeast and thief just should get severe nerfs to their damage output, so they become unattractive for Wvw.

>

> it's yet a big enough problem that they are brought so frequently to a place, where they should be the absolute exception. (their largescale qualities are bad, their job would be roaming + scouting, what they really do is: running with zergs to steal some kills during fights, stealthing around to portal into keeps after flips, running around in small gankergroups to burst down respawners from fights etc)

Why would anyone roam on a character with garbage burst output.

It's important to understand that PVE meta group DPS builds are basically 95% stacking modifiers to make your weapon-skill rotation numbers go up. A lot of strong traits that enable great play-making in PvP just aren't that useful when you're trying to burn through like 22 million hp or whatever.

You should be able to mess with your traits and see the +80 Power reflected in game.

> @"subversiontwo.7501" said:

> * Quite alot of players would be happy with the idea of the players making the mode, if we only had access to the room, but the padlocks are on - full servers, queues and transfer fees, you name it - they may exist in the name of balance but there is no balance anyway so they're just hinders for us

It certainly does seem like the measures in place right now kinda force WvW into an annoying stasis. That prevents some behaviors that would make the game worse, but also means we're all just sorta sitting on our butts waiting for Anet to do anything to make it better.

> @"Gankiskhan.4671" said:

> > @"ASP.8093" said:

> > Are your wife/friends on the same (full) server or spread out across a bunch of different (full) servers? Do they WvW?

>

> Yea they are on full servers. Yes they play WvW. It is why I wont consider a transfer for more of the same old same old. The only thing that will keep me playing GW2 at this point is being able to play with my wife primarily. I think I was hoping for some advice I had not considered but guess I have considered pretty much everything at this point and it is time sadly to move on.

Find a way to play with your wife, imo. You can try a support ticket where you straight-up say "we're partners and we really want to play together but can't" (the worst they can do is say no, right?), you can do what the bandwagon people do and move to her server's link server and then keep moving every two months on relink, or you can convince her to move to a third, open server with you. (Personally, I rather enjoy being on a link server permanently and getting an automatic change of scenery every two months.)

Are your wife/friends on the same (full) server or spread out across a bunch of different (full) servers? Do they WvW?

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> You're right.

>

> 0.2 seconds.

>

>

I love how your clone just goes running off to fight some guard at the end there.

> @"Kylden Ar.3724" said:

> > @"God.2708" said:

> > Concept of a tank has plenty of place in a PvP game mode, especially one relating to large scale encounters.

>

> Except a tank is useless in GW2 and in particular in WvW.

>

> Tanks in PvE tank by holding aggro. Doesn't work in WvW because when I see I can't get real damage thru, I ignore you and target the next softer sucker.

>

> Tanks per the classic D&D trope don't happen in WvW because there is no collision detection. You can not make a line to hold with tanks. You hold the line by making RED CIRCLES OF DEATH THE ENEMY CAN NOT CROSS. And in this meta, you do that with Firebrands and Scourges.

Guild Wars 1 had a very different tank philosophy in PvP, which was this: you're the up-close damage dealer that's easier to *contain* than they are to bring down. That meant a Warrior could pressure the enemy team, and they'd die if they ignored him, but just bursting a Warrior while all his supports were still in place was a pretty weak move. So optimal play often involved applying enough defenses and soft CC to reduce their DPS while you tried to save your burst, hard CC, and Enchantment (that's basically Boons) removal for a softer target. It made for an interesting flow.

You can't quite do that in GW2 but I do think Bubble Spellbreakers in large-scale and tanky disruption-heavy builds like Condi Rev in small-scale do kinda come close.

This is all personal preference, but, imo:

Thief (D/P+Sb Daredevil or R+D/P Deadeye) -- You know how zergs will sometimes have an off-tag "pick team" that's supposed to catch vulnerable players or turn downs into kills? You're one person playing the same role in small scale. Not all that different from how you play thief in spontaneous team skirmishes that happen while roaming.

Holo with Grenades -- You hit hard, you're mobile, you've got quick defensive abilities that really shine when the other team tries to focus you.

Power Soulbeast or Druid -- Easy pew-pew builds that will consistently get good DPS. Nothing too revolutionary here, except that you should try Stance-share Soulbeast for some off-meta support fun.

Condi Renegade (Mace/Axe + Shortbow, Mallyx+Jallis) -- I know you said you can't do Rev or don't like Rev, but hear me out: I thought so too until I learned how to play Mallyx+Jalis instead of all the Glint Herald builds. Everyone's playing these, right? Well, most people are playing them too selfish and defensive, running stuff like Retribution for the reflect bubble instead of taking Charged Mists (Invocation) so you can demolish people with a lot more Banish Enchantments spam. This build is really multifaceted: you're tanky with good self-sustain, but you're throwing out strong condition pressure, strong CC, a good bursty boon rip (+Chill to secure the kill), and you provide a little bit of both Stability and Cleansing for your team. And you've got the flexibility to fight in melee or at 900 range.

I like the Toxic Knights and some more mobs like that would be fun.

Just a few, though. Making it too common risks serious frustration when people over-pull and they can't clean up any downs because their PvE build has zero tools for sticking a finisher.

I agree with most of the core criticisms, but you need to be careful here: it's very easy to come up with a rework that looks good on paper but actually kills the specialization entirely. For example, just shunting all your damage into Kneel skills risks really weakening the Rifle as a weapon: if you can't apply pressure on the move, you're not really a viable ranged spec. That said, since Kneeling is often high-risk in WvW/PvP, I can see why you'd want it to be high-reward, too. Balancing this is real tricky imo. Especially since there's a pretty wide gulf between what good players can "punish" vs. what mediocre/bad players can "punish."

There desperately needs to be a "online to my mutual friends only" setting, _at the very least_.

> @"uberkingkong.8041" said:

> You aint got a commander, you probably gonna be checking for another world unless you pip farming.

> Thats how big a commander is in this game.

Err, no, I won't.

People may feel that way when they don't know what they're doing, but once you get a good handle on the game mode, working without a commander isn't much harder than following one around or supporting one remotely (scouting, tapping, siege delay tactics, whatever).

A lot of the value of a commander tactically is in their ability to coordinate bursts and pushes, and that's pretty much not happening unless you join their Discord. If they're just driving pugs around, then in my experience there's fairly little difference between a public squad and a leaderless "cloud" coordinating via /map chat.

I'll pop my own tag for about 5 minutes once a week when I need to broadcast my location for a sneaky cap or a Portal, but since I'm not interested in driving a zerg, the value in keeping it up longer than that is basically nil.

> @"uberkingkong.8041" said:

> What about you leaving WvW, and before you had roller beetle, now back in PvE your defaulted to Warclaw.

> Do you enjoy this?

The mount icon in the skill bar will show you your currently selected mount.

It takes 2 clicks to change your currently selected mount.

This is absolutely trivial compared to emptying your bags or checking your equipment templates.

> @"LetoII.3782" said:

> > @"ASP.8093" said:

> > in terms of the basic "Can I pick a build and go fight people, and have fun doing it?" It's not bad right now, imo.

>

> Well, one could _always_ do that... So long as you avoid certain FoTM builds or don't mind being at a disadvantage.

>

> But from a meta standpoint, I'd really like to see standing in one big clump not be such a dominant playstyle. We've rolled back damage, now some support abilities need the same treatment.

What's funny is that Quickness got WvW/PvP duration nerfed hard, so much so that it's basically just not used in WvW aside from roaming burst builds rocking Sigil of Celerity (and that's fine, imo), but basically no other boon got that treatment.

> @"LetoII.3782" said:

> The obvious explanation is that Cal hit a hole in one his first time at the tee and those smaller, more frequent correction passes were unnecessary.

Jokes aside, I don't actually hate the current balance state, it's just *ugly* -- lots of weird little warts from inconsistent patch changes, jacked-up skills and traits that you're just supposed to skip over, sad little glitches holding back otherwise cool abilities, &c. But in terms of the basic "Can I pick a build and go fight people, and have fun doing it?" It's not bad right now, imo.