LadyKitty.6120

All mission CMs are doable as of now, even Snowden. Just requires doing good amounts of damage to kill stuff fast and knowing how to use the in-game mechanics to your advantage. That escort in particular is easy if you know how to do River of Souls in W5. Though Kitty won't go into too much detail to avoid ruining the fun. Let's just say that one of Kitty's favourite things is really helpful. ;)

> @"DzT.8127" said: > Healscourge is good it doesn’t give boons tho. Just essentially full might for 10 on top of the usual resses and barriers if you use 100% boon duration, BM+Curses, BiP and Dessicate. Just requires being in separate sub to avoid sub priority. Also tons of regen. Kitty just friggin hates that misconception of "HEAL SCOURGE CAN'T BOON" that Teapot planted in raid community but since nobody cares about actual effective support builds, Kitty just shuts up.

> @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said: > > @"LadyKitty.6120" said: > > Meanwhile the build Kitty's using has about max. 25-29k potential if there's no waste when calculated with Kitty's method (and note: Kitty's math uses harrier's trinkets+weapons, magi's armor and Earth+Water specs instead of pure magi water+arcane healer you use which has over 40k potential by quick estimation) and thus you only used 55-66% of the build's max. healing potential even if you're running the lower healing boonbot version. In other words that's far more than enough for the boss even if you actually brought boons on top of healing. And considering that big portion of tempest's heals hit more than 5 peoples, tempest even gets further boost in numbers over other healers in healing that takes effect in arcdps. And those numbers just further confirm the numbers Kitty's used earlier in this thread with "Boneskinner, the most damage intensive boss by good margin in popular no torch-strat, does 2500-3000 damage per second. " referring to damage per person and if 10-target heals are even 20% of total healing, that's already bringing the healing done by you within that range as 16000 = 0,8 x 5 x 2750 + 0,2 x 10 x 2750, 2750 being the healing per person by average if tempest were a normal 5-target healer. > > Kitty... 16,000 / 10 people is 1.6k healing per person. This is the amount I healed during that boss fight. The potential of the build i could have had in that fight is 11 million healing....Which means i could have healed 45,800 / 10 people is 4.5k healing per person...1.6k as a ratio to 4.5k is 35% efficacy. > > >" if 10-target heals are even 20% of total healing," > A ) The problem with your calculations kitty, is you have too many "If's" that you are just adding into it. "If 10 target heals is 20% of total healing" comes out of nowhere, and really there is no reason to believe that the 10 target healing is 20% of total healing. Where did you even get this figure from? > > B ) Another "If" in your equations is the boss damage. The boss damage is different for all bosses and different on every encounter... You don't need this figure to find out the same information...Even if you go around trying to find how much damage the boss has done, that only applies for that particular encounter...it's not an average, and the average ranges anywhere from "Did all my allies stand in the ooze" to "did none of my allies stand in the ooze" This variable is to subjective and that's why your numbers become wishy washy. > > C ) your number of 2.7k...i'm not sure what it's supposed to represent...because again it's an HPS in a vacuum.... is this the maximum potential healing someone can heal for? Is this the average amount of healing a Tempest can do in a fight? Is this number pulled from a rotation that you used? There's no logical explanation for arriving at this number of 2.7k... > > Again you can prove this by just doing calculation backwards...if i healed 2.7k HPS per person, then my total healing should come out to 4 million in 4 minutes right? > > 2.7 x 10 allies = 27,000 per second. 27,000 x 240 seconds = 6.48 million healing. What am i missing here? Where did this extra 2.48 million healing come from? The thing is, you apparently don't seem to acknowledge that most of the heals in GW2 are 5-target and as such, there's usually one healer per 5 players and thus Kitty finds it most meaningful to compare the numbers standardized to that format (with 10-target heals counted as double their value to make them comparable though it skews the 10-target healers potential upwards if playing in squad with less than 10 players (which is why tempest is in fact a really dangerous choice for 5-player party's healer (standard party/subsquad size in PVE) as tempest's party doesn't benefit from those and big portion of subsquad prioritizing heals (esp. healbrand and healrene work that way) never leak to tempest's subsquad to compensate. Though then again, now that Kitty took a closer look at your screenshot, you're in WvW where things are way more like you've been saying in this thread. But that leads Kitty to kind of conclusion that you're trying to translate your WvW numbers to PVE (on instanced PVE content subforum, if Kitty may add) and ignore how PVE squads actually work which causes the builds you're using for your math to be irrelevant to actual gameplay scenario that is discussed on this subforum and thus rendering your numbers quite useless for anyone who'd use these kind of calculations in said content while Kitty's calculations are specificly using the builds used for that content. And as raid support main who's actually created prototype versions of and played many of the currently used and unused builds before they were adopted by raid community, Kitty has tons of videos actually showcasing essentially every single healbuild in raids if you need to check out what builds in this subforum look like. And just to tell you, Kitty ALWAYS does the basic potential math before testing the builds in the content itself and she's rarely turned out wrong. Except about that heal mirage... And as for that 27k for ten players, that 25-29k Kitty HERSELF mentioned is the max. potential in ideal conditions with realistic boons that you can assume to have in any scenario if people even try to play efficiently where this math would even matter to begin with. And that 2750 HPS Kitty mentioned regarding your earlier post is that 16,5k you said to have healed converted to 5-person subsquad standard assuming you had 2 healers (and with 16500 total HPS over 4 minutes, it doesn't sound like you were solo healing unless you had a damn pro squad). "16000 = 0,8 x 5 x 2750 + 0,2 x 10 x 2750, 2750 being the healing per person by average if tempest were a normal 5-target healer." meaning if you were to directly compare with strict 5-target healers such as druid, FB, rene or chrono etc. Only tempest and scourge have direct 10-target healing capabilities in meaningful amounts which is why they need that extra conversion for any comparable number. Ofc you can just calculate without taking comparability and viability account at all for theorethical potential and mathematical self-satisfaction but trying to even test that in any raids as 10-target solo healer... Well, good luck with that. Kitty already had hard enough time on more realistic builds in raids and your build would usually earn insta-kick in T4 fractals 'cause HB. And as for that if-if-if, yes. Kitty uses the word IF a lot when theorycrafting. When doing calculations with possible variables or uncertain/unknown but predictable factors possibly causing any meaningful changes in outcome, you need to take those into account and for setting a scenario with certain set conditions, word IF is kinda helpful to avoid making a list of those conditions. IF is the conditional, after all :3

> @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said: > > @"Psykewne.3025" said: > > So essentially either a) you’ve explained it so poorly no one gets it b) you’re so smart no one is on your level to understand it c) your initial premise is so irrelevant everyone is discussing things that are actually relevant d) you’re entirely wrong > > You left out the option E) Some people are too stubborn to take the time and do the (very simple) math in order to figure out objective properties about something.... clearly you missed that there are people here that do understand and are interested enough to ask questions about it. > > This method isn't some crazy magic dude...its literally adding stuff together...it can not be more simple than that. It's the same as taking the total amount of healing done at the end of a fight, and then dividing by the time of the fight to get an HPS, which is how Kitty does her calculation... It's the same thing except you are figuring out the potential of what could possibly be done in a fight and then comparing it to that number to see how well you are using the build...Because HPS alone in a vacuum isn't enough information to determine how well you are using a build. > > Example...Above in a previous comment, I did 4 million healing in a 4 minute boneskinner engagement. Take that number, divide it by 4 minutes, and you get 16,500 heal per second. But what does this number tell you? It doesn't say much unless you have some value to compare it to. People who use HPS meters usually compare this number to other people, to determine relative performance with other players. The method i'm using uses the potential you could ever possibly imagine to heal in a fight as a way to compare what you did, to what you can do on that build....it's literally in essence the same exact thing as Kitty's calculation, but taken a step further. This method is better because it takes values from specific skills, so that you can compare those skills to one another too...something an HPS meter in a vacuum can't do. Meanwhile the build Kitty's using has about max. 25-29k potential if there's no waste when calculated with Kitty's method (and note: Kitty's math uses harrier's trinkets+weapons, magi's armor and Earth+Water specs instead of pure magi water+arcane healer you use which has over 40k potential by quick estimation) and thus you only used 55-66% of the build's max. healing potential even if you're running the lower healing boonbot version. In other words that's far more than enough for the boss even if you actually brought boons on top of healing. And considering that big portion of tempest's heals hit more than 5 peoples, tempest even gets further boost in numbers over other healers in healing that takes effect in arcdps. And those numbers just further confirm the numbers Kitty's used earlier in this thread with "Boneskinner, the most damage intensive boss by good margin in popular no torch-strat, does 2500-3000 damage per second. " referring to damage per person and if 10-target heals are even 20% of total healing, that's already bringing the healing done by you within that range as 16000 = 0,8 x 5 x 2750 + 0,2 x 10 x 2750, 2750 being the healing per person by average if tempest were a normal 5-target healer.

> @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said: > > @"Nephalem.8921" said: > > > @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said: > > > > @"Nephalem.8921" said: > > > > And why arent you including quickness/alacrity then? > > > > > > I just explained why already...You can make a quickness and alacrity calculation where you will have quickness and alacrity. But if the build itself doesn't include it, it is mathematically fallacious to include it in a calculation. This is why i don't calculate frost-bow tempest with quickness or alacrity. If i were to weigh it the same with other builds then you would do the same with druid, and the same with scrapper, and the same with whatever builds you want to compare so that you aren't purposefully skewing numbers. I even mention throughout my calculations as footnotes, that skills like Medblaster, benefit highly from quickness and i give you the range at which that ability could potentially heal with quickness on...did you miss that part of my comment or something? > > > > > In a scenario where you wont have quickness or alacrity you would be better of just playing a build that provides those boons. This includes open world pve aswell. Boons are always top priority, heal comes 2nd. Thats even true for other mmos. I would say its mathematically fallacious to not include those boons because you are screwing numbers towards builds or skills that will never be used. Also you always do "real world" checks of simulations. Thats why car manufacturers still do crashtests even with all the simulations available. > > Druid is listed very low with your calculations but it heals a ton on boneskinner while a hfb has very little healing there. Either the calculation is wrong or i am just a very very bad hfb. > > Nobody calculates dps classes with just selfbuffs either. It just makes no sense. > > > > > > Okay, i don't know why we are even arguing about this in the first place because it really has nothing to do with the exercise. > > A ) If you want to calculate a builds potential with alacrity and quickness, go head...there is nobody here saying that you shouldn't. So long as you are consistent in applying the calculation from one build to another build that's all the matters, so that you are maintaining a consistent comparison between things. Kitty's already provided comparative numbers on that earlier in this thread. > C ) This boon or no boon argument business makes no sense...if you play a build with boons that's cool I never said you can not play a build that gives out boons or other utility?...why is this all of a sudden an argument about boons or whatever? This is about calculating Healing effectiveness without an HPS meter, and in general is an exercise that can tell you more information about healing effectiveness than an HPS meter can. Healing effectiveness is kinda useless info, though and like peoples are mentioning, what's the usefulness of this thread in any actual in-game scenario if you don't use the in-game builds? And also, if you play pure healer instead of boon value, you'll be kicked unless squad really needs a carry (in which case you'll likely be third healer). This very thing is the reason why heal scrappers are virtually non-existent despite of high heal output and utility: they're the worst booners. > D ) If you are playing a hybrid healer with multiple roles as a support, then your healing potential is going to be lower since you are diverting resources from healing, into other utility...Even then for the most part, you can transform those utilities into measurable healing potentials because you can break down almost all utility skills into components of healing, like Bulwark Gyro for example...so the argument that straight healing isn't better than boon supports, or that boon supports aren't better than healing makes no sense, and nobody made that argument to begin with. Again, healers are wanted for boons, not heals. Heals just come as bonus since upping boon duration means a lot worse dps and a second healer works as good failsafe in case primary healer isn't skilled enough/something unfortunate happens to them/they accidentally mistime heals for a moment. There's a reason why HB+druid is the preferred combo for most and that reason has nothing to do with healing output.

> @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said: > > @"Nephalem.8921" said: > > > @"LadyKitty.6120" said: > > > druid is bad choice for Boneskinner despite everyone wanting one (toss a coin to your soulbeast...). > > > > Druid has more heal than fb and scrapper from my testing. I got 13k hps with gotl. 17k+ is possible with lingering light. Only selfstats work with healing so im curious what other builds could achieve. > > You show a potential 35k hps for engi and i never saw that on bs. > > I did a rough estimate calculation with Heal Scrapper, and the potential to heal is there, but i agree in that I do not think it's as strong as Kitty points out. My calculation was very quick and back of the envelop so I'm gonna spend some more time on it make sure everything is right... but the conclusion here is that Engineer has a lower potential than Frostbow Tempest and thus has less long term sustain, but it has a nice way to produce concurrent healing, which gives it more inflated HPS to produce higher healing in certain time frames, by using long duration fields. > > [This rough calculation is based on one of Kitty's video's i found online where the engagement was 2 minutes and 18 seconds long]( ). The calculation at first was with 100% Healing Effectivness, which i know can't be reached on a Scrapper (it's more like 60%) so numbers that you see in the spoiler tags are mostly higher than their final numbers, where i put in 60%. Also, Quickness was applied to Medblaster where it actually matters, but a more consistent calculation would exclude quickness and alacrity for all abilities in order to weigh it equally with other classes, and one could simply make a calculation later that adds quickness and alacrity. Again i will go back to make a more consistent calculation in order to have it be on equal footing with every class just so people can compare it if they want to. > ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ > **Calculation** > Now basically, 1 mechanic on the build makes up over 60% of it's healing and the other mechanics make the other 40%, by margins of several millions. Those would be - > > **MedBlaster** > >! assuming 9 boons for entire fight on all allies (no quickness, no alacrity)... > >! > >! base = 370 per pulse (before healing effectivness) > >! Healing for each boon = 268 per pulse (before healing effectivness) > >! 370+268 = 638 per pulse. > >! > >! 638 x 3 = 1913 (x100% healing effectivness) = 3,826 > >! 3,826 x 5 allies = 19,132 per cast > >! > >! 19,132 x 144 uses in 3 minutes = 2,755,008 > >! 19,132 x 110 uses in 2m18s = 2,112,172 > this calculation was made without Quickness and Alacrity, with Quickness those numbers would be doubled...and with an accurate healing effectiveness which is around more like 50/60% instead of 100%, it would be more like 3.7 million healing in 3 minutes from just medblaster. > > The other mechanic would be the combination of Medical Dispersion Field and Compounding Chemicals, which would vary based on how many boons were actually applied to you during a fight. I used some numbers as a reference from one of Kitty's videos, which is the amount of boons applied during a fight that took 2m and 18s, and then just figured it out and transposed that number for a 3 minute fight to keep calculations consistent. > > **Medical Dispersion Field + Compounding Chemicals** > >! 3,308 in 2m18s minutes (138seconds) > >! > >! 71 healing per boon granted to self > >! medical disperation = 71 healing to 5 allies > >! > >! So, everytime a boon is granted to you (in this case 3,308 boons > >! were granted to you) you heal 5 allies for 71 healing for a total of > >! 1,174,340 in the course of a 2m18s fight. This number of course will > >! differ based on how many boons are applied to you in a fight in the same > >! time frame. > >! > >! Assuming boons were applied at the same rate for a 3 minute engagement = > >! 1,531,747 Healing. > Again on this calculation i used 100% Healing Effectiveness, when in reality it's more like 50/60% maximum, so a more realistic number is 919,048 Healing in 3 minutes. > > The rest of the abilities on Scrapper are near negligible in comparison to Med-Blaster, that it appears that it is almost not even worth using any other skills other than medblaster. ~~And these were calculated with 100% healing effectiveness (for simplicity sake) so the numbers give or take will be less than what's shown (of course quickness and Alacrity would probably make up for the 40% loss in healing effectiveness.~~ Updated the the numbers below to reflect 60% healing effectivness, and added additional abilities. > > **Bandage Self** > 618,880 = 3m00s (60%Healing Effectivness) > **SuperElixer** > 350,676 = 3m00s (60%Healing Effectivness) > **Bandage Blast** > 303,424 = 3m00s (60%Healing Effectivness) > **Vital Burst** > 134298 = 3m00s (60%Healing Effectivness) > **Elixer Shell** > 120600 = 3m00s (60%Healing Effectivness) > > The only thing I've yet to figure out is Regeneration on this build, but i can assume that if engineer were to be able to perma upkeep regeneration on 10 people, with 60% Healing Effectiveness it is maxed out at 669600 Healing > > **Regeneration** > 669600 = 3m00s > ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ > > **Conclusion** > So if we were to add up all those numbers, without quickness and alacrity, the potential seems to be around 5.2 million...with quickness for Medblaster, that number goes up to 6.2 million. Again, I'd like to do a more consistent calculation so that we can compare it under the same conditions as other builds so that we can have valid comparisons (again this is rough back of the envelop calculation), but essentially you will at least have 1/2 uptime with quickness on a scrapper build and so it's valid to account for it when making a calculation for things like Medblaster which are greatly effected by it. So anywhere between 5.2 million and 6.2 million would be the realistic potential for this build. > > This leads to the next point, which is that Scrapper according to the potential has less Healing Potential as a Frostbow Heal Tempest. Now all builds have their pros and cons, and i think Scrapper has it's place for stacking up simultaneous healing via long duration pulsing heal fields (which can give you a more inflated HPS during bursts) but over longer durations, it will not out heal a Frostbow heal Tempest. > > Lastly, this thread isn't really meant to compare other classes and builds really... it's meant to show how effective one is using their build in an encounter. Based on the calculation, One could simply use Med Blaster the entire time and see "pretty" good results. One would weigh in a priority rotation, whether it's worth not using 2 applications of a medblaster in order to use Elixer Shell or Vital Burst etc... > > Anyway, i will get back to this thread with a more precise and consistent calculation so that there can be no arguments about it. If anyone would like to go head and do calculations using the method to corroborate our findings (It's best to find numbers that agree with each other) than we can be certain about whether anyone has made mistakes or not. Just a tiny note: if you do math about something in squad content, ALWAYS make sure to also include numbers WITH quickness and alacrity. And a big difference is that your builds seem to be full magis while Kitty's are always at least partly harrier since in real situation (pretty much always 80%+ BD), healer's job isn't just healing but also bringing at least basic boons like might, fury, quickness and alacrity while at it if class allows it. Your builds seem to be built as pure healers which have 0 value for most squads as that kind of heal output isn't required in ANY situation unless you're trying to solo heal something with super-high damage pressure and if the pressure ever gets that bad, at least in raids the situation is so FUBAR with failed mechs that it's a wipe regardless of healing power. Since you mentioned 10-target heals, this thread isn't about feactals either, where EVERYONE wants a healbrand. Is this all math for Boneskinner as that'd be the only boss your math would have any actual realistic relevance to and even then, that's only if squad doesn't know their stuff. In all honesty, if you do squad math without quickness+alac and using full magi's, there's no gamemode it'd be really relevant at in 95%+ of cases. Even WvW uses heal tempest as boonbot.

The way Kitty's been doing it when crafting heal support builds is calculating avg. healing per ally per second from each skill ( (base healing + healing power x multiplier) x total outgoing heals % ÷ realistic time between casts (cast time+cooldown or time you use it on as part of rota), values from wiki and also taking trait-related variation into account) and then summing them up to a total average heals per second for pretty close estimation of healing potential. Kitty also makes notes of burst heals and general healing floor to get an idea of how well it fits certain bosses based on knowledge about the bosses and "damage taken" data from logs (converted into incoming dps per squadie) and 10-target heals are counted as double their value to get valid comparison against most heal skills (at the cost of less accurate estimation of build's realistic viability as 5-target healer if a healer relies most on 10-target heals, read: tempest and heal scourge). When Kitty last did it a year ago, the numbers were something like this (potential healing per squadie) and they've hardly changed at all in PvE since then : Heal/boon Engineer 7200 Heal Scrapper 6800 Heal/boon Renegade 6000-6500 Heal Frostbow Tempest 5500 Heal Staff Tempest 5000 Heal Herald 4500 Heal Warhorn Tempest (aka. Auramancer) with Frost Bow 4000 Heal Firebrand 3200 (Excl. blocked damage due to huge variation but increases heal potential vastly if blocking correct attacks) Heal 10-Mightbot Scourge 2800 (Incl. Barriers which count as proactive heals that usually have very little waste compared to reactive/rotation-bound heals) Heal GotL Druid with normal rotation 2800 Heal 10-Quickness Chronomancer 2500 Heal Mightbot Deadeye 2300 Heal Shout Warrior 2000-2250 (at condi-heavy bosses) To give some perspective, average raid boss does about 800-1,500 damage per second (which is why most classes can soloheal less damage-intensive bosses if the healer knows their stuff) and Boneskinner, the most damage intensive boss by good margin in popular no torch-strat, does 2500-3000 damage per second. You usually want at least 10-20% margin if incoming damage bursts at all and that's probably enough to show why average druid is bad choice for Boneskinner despite everyone wanting one (toss a coin to your soulbeast...). Though Kitty can heal through it as 2nd healer with only warhorn equipped but even then she's so damn greedy mightbot that she outheals most druids by at least 50-100% so that's a moot point. If people want real carry heals, they better bring an engifriend who's watched Kitty's vids. Though the gyro rubs are so cold, Kitty's heard. Not to mention that engi has a certain ress utility that's more clutch than scourge resses in some cases. And dps engi can bring it with AED to cheese through 1-hit squad downed mechs like CA's clap.