zombyturtle.5980

> @"Hannelore.8153" said:

> There's alot to say about this subject, but I'll just say this.

>

> I see this argument time and time again "new players are the problem", "newbies stop lying, stop deceiving, stop wasting time". Well, I ask you, how is a newer player supposed to know anything about the game, let alone all the unspoken rules and regulations of your LFG culture, which they have no way of finding out without playing the content, especially when they're not game rules and ArenaNet doesn't enforce them?

>

> Here's the problem with veterans in this game: The game gives new players a key to their first car, a beat up old junker, and then when they drive up next to the other cars ready to start a race so they can gain experience, everyone asks "where's your Ferrari, and your awards?".

>

> When new players can't present either of those things because they have no money, no experience and not prestige. they're told to just get lost. And then after a while they get tired of being told to get lost, so they start obfuscating details ("fake it until you make it") because they can't just magically make money, experience and prestige appear, like everyone wants, And then they're told that they're lying and deceiving.

>

> You could just ignore it, race and win. I seriously doubt one player (even in 5man) is pulling down the whole group. This a myth brought on by the need to have someone to blame; shown by the ability of people to solo or 2man most content, heck you can even get through nearly all T3/T4 Fractals just by having 2-3 people with the right composition, a few deadweights doesn't ruin everything unless you're also deadweight.

>

> You can run raids in Masterwork gear, but surely this one person is ruining /everything/ for you.

>

> Let me try to translate the words coming out of your mouths: "I am completely dependant on a perfect team composition and near-perfect gameplay to clear content because I'm not able to adapt to weaknesses in myself or my team, or simply refuse to do so". Doesn't this sound alot like what you're accusing newer, "stubborn" players of, when in reality they're probably just struggling to understand?

>

> This doesn't just affect raids btw. It affects all parts of the game, especially the competitive modes (PvP more than WvW, I guess).

>

> The net result is that they can't get anywhere while vets complain their challenging content is dead. Whether you're right or wrong doesn't matter, but you're all partly to blame for where the game, and the community, have ended up.

>

> There's no such thing as innocence, only varying degrees of guilt.

>

> EDIT: Some edits for clarity.

Yes the game absolutely sucks horribly in teaching new playes anything about how to play decently but that is entirely on anet and the vocal casuals who complain to death about anything remotely challenging in the game, and has nothiing to do with raiders.

A new player who is bad purely from ignorance, but wants to improve will very quickly find the help and advice needed. Almost everyone is happy to answer questions or suggest guides that can give a player everything they need. Raiders have literally spent hundreds of hours writing guides, making vids and crafting builds that will carry all but the worst players through content if they bother to read/watch them. All it takes is 1 question in guild chat or aerodrome, or one google search. There are the raiders who spend hours each week running trainings to help new players get into raids, getting 0 benefit themselves and doing it purely for others. Raiders have done more than any other group in this game to help newbies, except for the wiki creators or dulfy herself back when she was active. If you put in 0 effort to help yourself and demand everyone do it for you, expect 0 help in return.

Other than torpedoing their own clear groups by accepting any and all new players which is a super entitled and unreasonable thing to ask, what else exactly should raiders be doing to help newbies? Quite frankly, I do not want to carry a player who contributes nothing to the group. They will never learn anything if they are just carried through.

Maybe if a player cant even understand half the terms in a LFG, they shouldnt be joining that group as it clearly isnt for them?

> @"Zhaid Zhem.6508" said:

> > @"zombyturtle.5980" said:

> > > @"Zhaid Zhem.6508" said:

> > > The main reason people wipe over and over is that they don't want to adapt. They have their build, c/p from a website or not, and they think as it's "optimal" for 99% of situations there is no reason it can't work on this one.

> > > Or they ask the fb / ren to adapt but themselves they don't care. And they repeat ... I've seen it multiple time with my FB.

> > > Honor/virtues : Stab shout + stab ground + wall + renewed focus, everybody looks safe until I can't loop stab or a wall or/and they start running everywhere, diving in water, unable to cleave mobs, cleanse their own conditions ... and i'm alone trying to save 4 lost members in the 4 corners of the maps against 40 mobs, daze, wind ...

> > > Where sometimes I just run wall+stab ground and everything is fine, because the ren also help, the DH also has stab/reflect, the berserker whirld in trashmobs and clean the boat, etc.

> > >

> > > How hard is it for a DH to take the wall + the stab field + why not renewed focus ? Or even switch to Fb and spam F1 and F3. For Sb, the stab stance + bear stance + stance share ? Holo, the arena + cleave/aoes ? Weaver can switch to tempest too, for warhon / magnetic aura, rebound ...

> > > How hard is it to kill mobs sometimes rather than search for the boss wittingly ignoring mobs and aoes.

> > >

> > > All classes can have useful utilities for the group : stab, reflect, cleanse, aoe/cleave, boonstrip ... You don't necessarily to change all your build, but do a part of the job with 1-2 skills or traits. You don't care to lose >30% of your personal DPS if everybody survive this encounter.

> > > If you die over and over in t2-t3 of this fractal, because you don't know the mechanics, your group is a bit bad ... okai.

> > > T4, there is no excuse; yes this is a L2P issue, but this is T4 fractals, not your personal stance story. Adapt, collaborate.

> >

> > I mean...if you are running meta comp the whole reason you take hfb is so your team does not have to adapt and lose their damage. I agree if you are wiping over and over they should swap 1 ultility to help but as long as the dps avoid the orange blow aoe and stand in the greens, firebrand alone can carry the entire rest of the group with no changes needed.

> >

> > This obviously differs for non meta groups however which will lack dps to phase properly. If you are running off meta though, a single scourge will solo carry just as hard as firebrand.

> >

> > Also why are you running so much stab. It doesnt block the wind attack. Reflect would be better surely. Ren can also basically solo carry this frac with perma ventari bubble, unless there are horrible instabs.

>

>

> This is T4 fractals, not random dungeon you do with newbies or story instance. You should be ready; you should know what comps/builds work better than others for all fractals, you should have unlocked all skills a long time ago already, may be have differents weapons in inventory, differents classes with agony resistance ...

>

>

> I have been there too :

> "You're the dps, c/p this build, work your rotation

> _Ah okai, I'm the DPS...

> _Why didn't you take this skill here ?

> _But I'm the dps ... "

> "Ignore mobs, ignore mechanics, rush the boss

> _Okai I rush the boss

> _Why didn't you pull the mobs here ?

> _But later you said to ignore them ... "

> And it's frustrating. I have lived these times where I played classes because people told others to play theses classes but I had no idea why, nor how to adapt. Or you join groups with differents strats, with portals, Skips, no healer, 2 healers, no burst, etc and you don't learn or you forget the mechanics of the fractals, the potential of your class ...

> I had scenario with players who were so blindfolded they really forgot how to read a comp, read the weakness, the needs etc and couldn't even change one skill

> "War, why don't we have banners ?

> _I can't, I am DPS war, i don't play banner"

> "We should take more support here, we have trouble with instabilities.

> _Ah no, I am meta, I have done this boss like that, it is written in the sacred website we don't have to change anything for this situation. Pray SC and Discretize 3 times a day."

> Really ??????????????

>

> No. You can adapt, you can change roles, specs, skills, you can relog, sacrifice some DPS, or some support if this allows your group to succeed.

> Of course you don't need power brigade ascended food + portals+ shovels etc, of course the boss is harder than in other fractals, but if no one in your group is or has a DH in his characters, and so a FB (click on the third spec > FB instead of DH, done), if no one has a weaver, and so tempest, or Scourge, or revenant, a healer, a support, etc, with ~110 agony resistance, if you can't take 2 minutes to advise a strategy, skills, yeah you will have a lot of troubles, but you shouldn't be in T4.

>

> Yes the fractal is harder than others. Yes, git gud ; don't rush headlong, blindfolded.

Yes.. I agreed with you that if your group is struggling, a dps should swap utilities. However, assuming all the dps can avoid orange aoes the HFB can solo carry the rest of the fractal just with mass projectile reflect/destruction and some condi cleanse, which is the reason you bring him. Literally all you need is semi competent dps and a good hfb and this frac becomes as easy as any other.

I still think double stab is totally unnecesary, and sacrificing wor/soa/condicleanse for it is a bad idea. Surely the stab from elite should be more than enough for the boss attacks.

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> Well, it works like this: all Squares are Rhombuses, and all Rhombuses are Parallelograms. Clearly, not all Parallelograms are Squares, but it is also clear that all Squares are Parallelograms, so there is still a necessary relationship there. Take this, and apply it to GW2. Yes, not all raiders are toxic. But, most toxic players are raiders. So, there is still a necessary relationship there. If the majority of terrible interpersonal interactions happen with raiders, then it doesn't matter if most raiders aren't mean.

>

> The silence = consent thing is about where the moral duties of players lie. You can make a good argument that it is not only the duty of somebody to not be immoral, but to fight immorality actively. That to not fight against evil is, in itself, giving consent for evil to exist. I.E. if there is a stray cat in your house, and you don't drive it away, then it is understood by the cat that it is O.K. to be in your house. This isn't just about the general lack of communication of the playerbase, but the lack of communication when an incident happens. When one person starts personally insulting another in the group for perceived slights, the moral thing to do is to give defense and/or leave the team as to not encourage the toxicity of that player. So, when somebody remains silent, this conveys the message that they either agree with the first person but just don't want to talk, or they are indifferent and are fine with whatever outcome happens.

>

> The natural response to the under-performance of a person IRL is to help them perform. I.E. if somebody has trouble walking, you lift them onto your shoulder and carry them through. But, in an MMO with anonymity and limitless replacements, the natural response is to kick somebody when they are down and get angry at that person for being in the way. This doubles the hurt and makes players hate each other.

You have no way of knowing whatsoever if the majority of toxic players are in raids in this game. You have only your own anecdotal evidence which is pretty worthless.

My experience suggests that PVP has the overwhelming percentage of toxic players, with 'play how i want' casual players coming up second. I have seen far, far more toxicity from open world players than I have ever experienced in a raid.

The reality of it is, any content that requires a base level of competence from your teammates to succeed has the chance to cause tension or attract toxic players. Just look at auric basin on a meta that doesnt oneshot.

My favourite LFG moment was when I completed Dhuum CM with a full group of pugs. I had been pugging it for weeks with little success and just happened to join this group at about 1am. They were all french, but had forgotten to put that in LFG for the last spot. It started as badly as most other pugged CMs go, but surprisingly noone quit. About an hour of fails later, and the group realized we might have a chance at this. Brand new discord was created so we could communicate properly and every single one of them kindly spoke English just so I could understand. It took us 4 hours in total and everyone was exhausted but after many many wipes, many screams of RUN IM DOWN WITH BOMB or HELP KEVIN HAS CAUGHT ME, we killed it. They were all awesome people and not a single one of them flamed, even when really really stupid mistakes were made.

I also have loved first day of new raid wings where everyone is excited, noone has a clue what they are doing and you get some really weird strats while people try and figure out how to deal with new mechanics.

> @"Zhaid Zhem.6508" said:

> The main reason people wipe over and over is that they don't want to adapt. They have their build, c/p from a website or not, and they think as it's "optimal" for 99% of situations there is no reason it can't work on this one.

> Or they ask the fb / ren to adapt but themselves they don't care. And they repeat ... I've seen it multiple time with my FB.

> Honor/virtues : Stab shout + stab ground + wall + renewed focus, everybody looks safe until I can't loop stab or a wall or/and they start running everywhere, diving in water, unable to cleave mobs, cleanse their own conditions ... and i'm alone trying to save 4 lost members in the 4 corners of the maps against 40 mobs, daze, wind ...

> Where sometimes I just run wall+stab ground and everything is fine, because the ren also help, the DH also has stab/reflect, the berserker whirld in trashmobs and clean the boat, etc.

>

> How hard is it for a DH to take the wall + the stab field + why not renewed focus ? Or even switch to Fb and spam F1 and F3. For Sb, the stab stance + bear stance + stance share ? Holo, the arena + cleave/aoes ? Weaver can switch to tempest too, for warhon / magnetic aura, rebound ...

> How hard is it to kill mobs sometimes rather than search for the boss wittingly ignoring mobs and aoes.

>

> All classes can have useful utilities for the group : stab, reflect, cleanse, aoe/cleave, boonstrip ... You don't necessarily to change all your build, but do a part of the job with 1-2 skills or traits. You don't care to lose >30% of your personal DPS if everybody survive this encounter.

> If you die over and over in t2-t3 of this fractal, because you don't know the mechanics, your group is a bit bad ... okai.

> T4, there is no excuse; yes this is a L2P issue, but this is T4 fractals, not your personal stance story. Adapt, collaborate.

I mean...if you are running meta comp the whole reason you take hfb is so your team does not have to adapt and lose their damage. I agree if you are wiping over and over they should swap 1 ultility to help but as long as the dps avoid the orange blow aoe and stand in the greens, firebrand alone can carry the entire rest of the group with no changes needed.

This obviously differs for non meta groups however which will lack dps to phase properly. If you are running off meta though, a single scourge will solo carry just as hard as firebrand.

Also why are you running so much stab. It doesnt block the wind attack. Reflect would be better surely. Ren can also basically solo carry this frac with perma ventari bubble, unless there are horrible instabs.

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> Unless something has magically changed, the toxicity isn't a figment of the imagination. Back when dungeons were the end game, if something went wrong you didn't just get kicked, you got shouted at for 10 minutes by an angry tryhard about mistakes that you weren't even making. By nature of being the "elite" content, it is going to attract people who think of themselves as God's gift to the game, people who've dedicated themselves to peak performance from self-esteem issues, and people who put an inordinate amount of value on their time in spite of clocking several thousand hours on a videogame.

>

> It can't be fixed. The antonym to toxicity is forgiveness, and forgiveness is something that you are forced to do in person. GW2, however, is an environment with anonymity and limitless faceless cogs to choose from, where communication can be ceased just by pressing the block button. You're free to wrong somebody however you like, so long as it is not forbidden by the rules. You don't have to deal with them in person, and there will always be somebody else to replace them. There is no sense of community, and the inability for other people to get their foot into the door is _their_ problem.

This is exactly the kind of thing OP is talking about, and just reinforces my point that nothing any raiders say or do will ever change people like this' mind. The notion that anyone who makes a mistake is berated for 10 minutes regularly is frankly ridiculous and an outright lie. I am sure this person would defend this statement however, despite overwhelming evidence against it.

I agree. I have stopped farming the cache keepers and just going afk until north meta starts because I will never have enough keys for both, and north has better rewards with the shards of jormag blood. Its a shame. I hope they can balance it better so a full meta run with 200% participation, and participation in all events for north gives you enough keys to open every chest.

I think dragonfall also has this issue but thats because players go outside intended design and farm all champs.

You wont ever fix the problem. As you can see from the OP in the other thread they have already decided they are right and nothing will ever change their mind. They do not want to listen and they do not want to learn, they just want their opinion validated.

> @"gdubze.6015" said:

> Honestly the real issue are players like @"zombyturtle.5980" saying something is not possible unless you play this way, watch this then come back and tell me what you said actually has any relevance.

I said for NEW players. Experienced players can avoid more than half, if not all of the requirements purely through skillful play and very in depth knowledge of each fight. New players will never be able to do that and trying to do anything other than follow requirements will lead to a wipe.

It is possible to 4 man every boss in this game. Does that mean its reasonable for a totally new training group to try and 4 man dhuum? No that would be rediculous. For them to have a chance of success they will need to fill the basic requirements for dhuum.

If new players want a successful W1 run, I stand by they will need every position I listed covered.

And yes like I argued previously, lack of hard enrage or oneshot mechanics leads to issues like this. Bosses being soloable for skilled enough players, which shows they failed in their purpose to be really challenging content. Cairn also has this issue. VG gets a pass for being an intro boss. However, go to gorseval or sabetha and this becomes impossible, due to them having hard limits on minimum DPS, through limited updrafts, and platform health.

W1 an intro raid for new players needs;

Toughness based tank, might source for each sub, fury source for each sub, alacrity source for each sub, quickness source for each sub, protection source for each sub, warrior banners, 2 healers, 1 person who has a low cd aoe knockback, 2 condi dps, boonrip, enough cc to break multiple breakbars on short CD, a full group of power dps, 1-2 ranged dps, 1 person who can pull adds, 1 person who can perma immobalize multiple enemies, a flak kiter, 2 cannoneers, everyone to have gliding and updraft mastery.

You will not beat the raid as a new group unless you have all of these things, with the exception of maybe warrior banners. You have 10 spots. What exactly is the LFR going to search for to make sure all these ESSENTIAL things are covered, no role is covered more than once, and that there are enough DPS players to beat the enrage.

Again this is only for the very first introduction raid wing. Later wings are alot harder and have many more requirements.

Do you people supporting this understand yet.

> @"SeikeNz.3526" said:

> > @"zombyturtle.5980" said:

> > > @"SeikeNz.3526" said:

> > > > @"zombyturtle.5980" said:

> > > > > @"SeikeNz.3526" said:

> > > > > > @"zombyturtle.5980" said:

> > > > > > Questions for OP

> > > > > >

> > > > > > How will role selecting work. BY self selecting roles or gear checking and auto placing roles?

> > > > >

> > > > > anet can define a minimum of roles for each raid to be possible to finish it, if it's possible to finish it with 1 or 2 healers then the mm should know it and search for players that signed as healers, gear checking should not be a thing, if players want to check everything they should make a manual raid, also this is toxic.

> > > > >

> >

> >

> > > > It is possible to finish most raids with 0 heals. That does not mean 99% of the playerbase will be capable of doing the raid with no heals. In fact, most players would wipe within a few minutes without at least 1 healer. This is why I ask, what should the LFR ask for. In general 3 healers are considered too much for a raid, but there are many groups that do raid that NEED 3 healers to complete it.

> > >

> > > anet can define a minimum, simples as that, if you join as dps and want to change to healer if the raid will be easier with 3 healers and everyone on the raid agree, nothing is blocking you.

> > >

> > And im asking you what that minimum should be. Since different groups need different amounts of healing. Some groups need 1 healer for a boss and other groups need 3. But the LFR cant know that, so what should it ask for. Very few people playing lfr are going to have the ability to swap to a healer on demand if they queue as dps.

> >

> > > > You say gear check is toxic

> > > >

> > > > > > If its the former, what about players who say they are healer, but have dps gear. If its the latter, gear checking is controversial enough as it is. Will it ban you if you dont have good enough gear/stats? How will the LFR decide whats needed in the first place. E.g 1 heal vs 2 or even 3

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > about the gear anet can implement a system and info that everyone should have at least a purple gear to do it, they can auto check if the player is using some healing power gear if they queue as healer or a minimum heal power, if not he can't queue as healer.

> > > > > they should know a minimum to finish it.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > players that want min max should do their own raid.

> > > >

> > > > And then immedatly say the game should gear check you.

> > >

> > > i said stats check and purple gear, a bare minimum, a gear check would be forcing players using all Minstrel

> > > like to join as healer you should pass the minimum check of xxx heal power

> > > or to join as dps xxx condi or power

> > >

> >

> > > just a little filter, so no one join with weird stats and fake the role

> > >

> > That is exactly the definition of a gear check.

>

> it's a stat check not a gear check, because on gw2 you can have multiple gears with multiple stats.

>

The only way to get those stats, outside of a few select utilities/traits, is gear. Same difference.

> > > > > > Is this LFR going to enfore the meta?

> > > > >

> > > > > meta should not be a thing.

> > > > >

> > > > > > Will it demand each group has a druid or will it only request healers. If it lacks a druid, what happens when 3 scrappers join and the group has 0 might uptime.

> > > > >

> > > > > does the raid demand a druid or a healer? if a healer, the class should not matter, scrappers should not be queued as healers if they can't heal, if the dps is low and the party going to have a hard time does not matter, if they can finish it.

> > > > > if druid is a bad healer it's anet problem on balacing classes.

> > > > >

> > > > You clearly have no idea how raids work then. It does matter if the dps is low. Too low dps and the boss will enrage, usually wiping everyone instantly.

> > >

> > > enrage timer is the most kitten thing on raids imo, this force dps meters toxic people on the game, a raid should be about mechanics not how you can dps.

> > >

> > Enrage timer is one of the core features of raids and is arguable the most important one that makes raids challenging. Otherwise players could bring 10 healers, leave them afk autoattacking the boss and ignore mechanics by healing through them. This would not be hard or challenging completely defeating the purpose of the raid. I think raids should be about both using the combat system (dps boons and heals) and doing mechanics.

> >

> > Regardless of whether you hate them or not. Raids do have an enrage timer. And your group does need to deal with it.

>

> if the 10 healers don't know the mechanics they going to wipe like u said :)

>

I did not say that. I said if there is no enrage or instakill they will ignore mechanics and heal through them.

> > > > The druid is taken to give might to the entire group. Without any might you lose +750 power and condition damage massively reducing the groups dps. Raids are balanced around the assumption the whole group will have max might stacks the whole fight. I imagine anyone using a LFR will not beat the enrage timer on some bosses, especially largos without might. This is why meta exists. To make sure the group has the buff it needs to beat the raid.

> > > >

> > > > So I ask again, do you demand a druid and ensure the group has might, giving a reasonable chance of cdlearing the fight? Or do you not ask for one, rejecting the meta but chancing you will get 3 scrapper healers who cannot give any might.

> > >

> > > it's not like druid is the only class that can buff might, also if you join as support/healer you should know that u need to buff and heal, if someone on the raid is already doing it you can always change if necessary;

> > >

> > It is one of the only classes that can give permanent might to the entire group on every boss. The other being tempest. Again, most people who would use LFR do NOT have multiple classes to swap too, let alone multiple healers.

> >

> > If people joining should know they need to buff might as a healer, then you say they should only queue as druid or tempest heal. Basically enforcing the meta. Because thats why people in LFG ask for a druid in the first place.

> >

> > > > > > What about alacrity and quickness?

> > > > > > There are multiple ways to obtain 100% quickness and alacrity, most of these roles also double as healer or dps. Will the lfr be able to adapt and changes its requirements for example if a hfb joins, removing the need for 1 healer but necessitating an alcren instead of boon chrono for alacrity.

> > > > >

> > > > > if someone want to min max stats they should make a manual raid, the mm should be for players that want to have fun and try to finish it, so everyone can enjoy end content even if having a harder time.

> > > > >

> > > > Once again, raids are balanced around the expectation that the group will have permanent alacrity and quickness buffs. If you have a group without those buffs you lose more than half the squads damage. Most LFR groups will not be able to beat the bosses with no buffs. This once again shows you dont even understand the most basic stuff about raids.

> > > does not matter if they can't beat it, it's better than only 1% of the player doing it, at least they joined a raid and tried, also they can always talk to each other to try to change a class if needed.

> > >

> > It does matter. Like cyninja said if players try to raid in a horrible group setup with terrible boons and fail, which they will, they will get a horrible impression of raids and never want to go back.

>

> it's like saying people will hate dark souls because it's "too hard", if someone dislike hard content to begin with they should not even raid.

>

It is not too hard if you bring the basic things needed to beat the boss. It is if you lack them.

> > > > > > What about specilized roles?

> > > > > > Many raid bosses need a special role, that often needs a special build in order to function. Will the LFR recognize these roles, what about roles where the player is expected to not only do the special mechanic, but also provide dps or heals. e.g pusher for desmina, lamp for qadim. How will it check the player who joins is suitable for both these jobs.

> > > > >

> > > > > the only way to kill the raid boss is with that role? players defined it or anet? if so something is very wrong with the class balance.

> > > > > if you can kill with other classes should it matter? min max players should do their own raid.

> > > > >

> > > > Yes the only way to kill that boss is with that role. While several classes can hand kite on deimos, if you dont have someone who knows how to do it you cannot kill the boss. You will wipe within the first minute. This is true of several bosses who need special roles.

> > >

> > > so just because they going to fail first time does not mean they need to disband, they can just try until they learn.

> >

> > I am telling you if they do not have the proper build to do that mechanic they will die. Over and over. Nomatter how much they practice they will die.

> >

> > Here is a good example so you can maybe start to understand and stop arguing about this you have no idea of. Deimos is a raid boss. Once of his mechanics is he puts an aoe on the feet of the person furthest away from him. This aoe stacks 5 times, a few seconds pause and begins stacking again. 1 stack alone is enough to instakill an average dps player. They need to constantly keep moving and never stand in a stack to survive. However if they do this the aoe will be spread ALL over the arena, leaving no space for the group to fight the boss. So at minimum the person dealing with this aoe needs to stand still until 3 stacks are under their feet before they can move on.

> > To do this they need alot of self heal and some damage absorption. On top of this, deimos does a oneshot attack. They need to be able to block it. You can see now hopefully why they need a special build and be experienced with the aoe mechanic to not wipe the whole group.

>

> cool, so you learned the mechanics why other people can't?

>

BECAUSE YOU NEED A SPECIAL BUILD AND A SPOT IN GROUP TO DO IT AND LFR WILL NEED TO RECOGNIZE THAT.

> > > > > > What about wing full clears?

> > > > > > Will the LFR be limited to 1 boss only. How can it check that players can even open that boss. If it accounts for full wing clears, what about special mechanics there. Will it be able to put together a sufficient group for say, desmina that needs full condi dps and a special mechanics and then power dps for statues, and finally 3 special mechanics for dhuum. I assume gear checker will be in place for single bosses but thats not possible for multibosses, what about people who lie and join saying they can do special roles, then when the group reaches that boss they are useless. Can you kick them? If yes will the LFR recognise which role was kicked and replace it properly?

> > > > >

> > > > > this is a complex question, but anet can put a info to players that they should have more than one gear available to change the type of the dps for different types of bosses or they going to fail, players at first time will not know what they going to face until they learn the raid, older players should teach them, everyone using the mm should know they going to face random players.

> > > > >

> > > > > if the raid really need that special role because of anet definition then the mm should look for someone at that role without losing the raid progression.

> > > > > a vote kick can be a good thing only if all the players accept it, the problem is toxic players using dps checks that can be a cancer.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > You havnt answered half my questions. IF its only 1 boss how will the LFR even make sure the boss can be opened.

> > > >

> > > > Older player should not be forced to teach new , but many choose to through guilds. What do you do if your LFR doesn't have any old players to help.

> > > so older player that join with the MM should know that's for random players and can't rage, if he want he can always go and do it with his guild, this is a system for players without 10 people to play.

> > > > I am talking about special roles that also double as a default position in the group. EG. A pusher at desmina that also heals. WIll the LFR be able to understand that the prevsious person who left was duoing as both pusher and heal, and search now for someone queued as push heal. Or will it just look for push, leaving the group down 1 heal. What if it cant find someone queued as both push and heal?

> > >

> > > it's a matchmaking not a 100% win rate raid making, of course people are gonna fail, but at least they tried, also they can always learn how to do it.

> > >

> > I have told you. You MUST have special mechanics covered or you will instawipe the group. anything less than 100% when it comes to these roles is worthless. you wont even get to try. You will die almost instantly every single time.

>

> if only one class can do this role something is wrong with the game balance don't you think? there's nothing to do with the matchmaking

>

No there is nothing wrong with balance. Not every class can heal, Not every class can give certain buffs. Not every class can do special mechanics and thats fine. It means even if a class is weaker one role, they can excell in another and still be useful in a raid. Its a good thing.

> > > > If anet warns people they need 2 different dps builds, but they ignore it and only bring 1 what then? You do realize raids have an enrage timer. Some which will instakill you if you do not deal enough damage to beat it. What if someone in your group is not doing enough damage to beat the timer. What if it is causing the group to fail over and over? Isnt that person toxic by joining as a role they cannot do and causing the group to fail? Should they be kicked? Is it still toxic then?

> > >

> > > it's toxic to kick someone just because he is new or because of dps meters, now if he is ignoring everyone and not even trying, kicking is the option, also if someone join a raid with a big warning telling you to bring more than one gear, he should know he is joining a harder end game content and can't complain if they kick him or fail.

> > >

> > It is not toxic. If that person fails to do the bare minimum damage needs to beat the boss, which is about 25% of what the class is capable of, they should not be in a raid. Like you said , they should know they are joining harder end game content and should not complain if they get kicked because they were unprepared. Whether that is bringing the wrong gear, or not learning how to play their class.

> >

> > > > > > All in all, it would need a very complex algorithm to even come close to being effective at making useful groups and the amount of work it would take to make that happen seems excessive when LFG can perform almost the same function, with more agency to players at the cost of some convenience.

> > > > >

> > > > > it's better having a hard time doing a raid with randoms than never do it

> > > > I disagree

> > >

> > > no one is forcing you use it, it's a system for players that don't have a 10 premade raid, like 99% of the player base, also everyone know that a raid is a end game content and will be hard, the matchmaking isn't to sure a win, it's to find people to group simple as that

> > >

> > >

> > With your version of matchmaking no group would ever ever have even the slightest chance to win. they would all fail, horribly. And as people realize they have no chance to win ever by joinging LFR they would stop using it. Very soon, it would be totally dead, just like the LFR in strike missions is.

> >

> > What you seem to refuse to understand is that raids have basic requirements in order to beat them. They are balanced around having these requirements fulfilled in your group. If you group does not fulfil these basic requirements you have no chance at all. It is pointless even trying. This is not bad game design nor is it toxic. These requirements are there because the content is suppose to be challenging and force you to take advantage of all the tools available to beat it. If these requirements did not exist, anyone who was choosing to fully use these tools would find raids to be extremely easy and have no challenge at all, which would defeat the point of raids themselves.

> >

> > A LFR that does not guarantee your squad has all these requirements met is useless as the group it forms has no chance of beating the boss. However, creating a LFR that meets these requirement is very difficult and has many unsolvable problems like the questions I originally gave to you. You however are totally unable to answer even a few due to your total lack of understand of how raids work.

>

> so let they fail horribly, there's not a problem in that, people who not like harder content will stop using it sure, but they also will lose the chance to get legendary set, it's not supposed to be easy in first place.

> how it's now, people who want to try can't because they don't have 10 people to play with.

>

>

Noone will use it and you will have less chance getting 10 ppl together in LFR than in LFG just like strikes. If you still cannot understand now after ALL the massive wall of text explaining I have given you then I give up. You simply do not want to understand.

If you ever in the future actually care about giving raiding a chance and actually want to learn how they work properly, I would be happy to explain them to you myself and help you get into raiding groups, provided you are willing to listen. Or I could direct you to guides made by much much more experienced players than me, who have summarized it all very well.

However due to your constant nonsense arguments about toxicity, dps meters ect I have the feeling you do not want to learn anything and like so many others in the game, would rather continue to argue and flame about something you have never even tried.

Either way GL with your gaming.

> @"SeikeNz.3526" said:

> > @"zombyturtle.5980" said:

> > > @"SeikeNz.3526" said:

> > > > @"zombyturtle.5980" said:

> > > > Questions for OP

> > > >

> > > > How will role selecting work. BY self selecting roles or gear checking and auto placing roles?

> > >

> > > anet can define a minimum of roles for each raid to be possible to finish it, if it's possible to finish it with 1 or 2 healers then the mm should know it and search for players that signed as healers, gear checking should not be a thing, if players want to check everything they should make a manual raid, also this is toxic.

> > >

> > It is possible to finish most raids with 0 heals. That does not mean 99% of the playerbase will be capable of doing the raid with no heals. In fact, most players would wipe within a few minutes without at least 1 healer. This is why I ask, what should the LFR ask for. In general 3 healers are considered too much for a raid, but there are many groups that do raid that NEED 3 healers to complete it.

>

> anet can define a minimum, simples as that, if you join as dps and want to change to healer if the raid will be easier with 3 healers and everyone on the raid agree, nothing is blocking you.

>

And im asking you what that minimum should be. Since different groups need different amounts of healing. Some groups need 1 healer for a boss and other groups need 3. But the LFR cant know that, so what should it ask for. Very few people playing lfr are going to have the ability to swap to a healer on demand if they queue as dps.

> > You say gear check is toxic

> >

> > > > If its the former, what about players who say they are healer, but have dps gear. If its the latter, gear checking is controversial enough as it is. Will it ban you if you dont have good enough gear/stats? How will the LFR decide whats needed in the first place. E.g 1 heal vs 2 or even 3

> > >

> >

> > > about the gear anet can implement a system and info that everyone should have at least a purple gear to do it, they can auto check if the player is using some healing power gear if they queue as healer or a minimum heal power, if not he can't queue as healer.

> > > they should know a minimum to finish it.

> > >

> >

> > > players that want min max should do their own raid.

> >

> > And then immedatly say the game should gear check you.

>

> i said stats check and purple gear, a bare minimum, a gear check would be forcing players using all Minstrel

> like to join as healer you should pass the minimum check of xxx heal power

> or to join as dps xxx condi or power

>

> just a little filter, so no one join with weird stats and fake the role

>

That is exactly the definition of a gear check.

> > > > Is this LFR going to enfore the meta?

> > >

> > > meta should not be a thing.

> > >

> > > > Will it demand each group has a druid or will it only request healers. If it lacks a druid, what happens when 3 scrappers join and the group has 0 might uptime.

> > >

> > > does the raid demand a druid or a healer? if a healer, the class should not matter, scrappers should not be queued as healers if they can't heal, if the dps is low and the party going to have a hard time does not matter, if they can finish it.

> > > if druid is a bad healer it's anet problem on balacing classes.

> > >

> > You clearly have no idea how raids work then. It does matter if the dps is low. Too low dps and the boss will enrage, usually wiping everyone instantly.

>

> enrage timer is the most kitten thing on raids imo, this force dps meters toxic people on the game, a raid should be about mechanics not how you can dps.

>

Enrage timer is one of the core features of raids and is arguable the most important one that makes raids challenging. Otherwise players could bring 10 healers, leave them afk autoattacking the boss and ignore mechanics by healing through them. This would not be hard or challenging completely defeating the purpose of the raid. I think raids should be about both using the combat system (dps boons and heals) and doing mechanics.

Regardless of whether you hate them or not. Raids do have an enrage timer. And your group does need to deal with it.

> > The druid is taken to give might to the entire group. Without any might you lose +750 power and condition damage massively reducing the groups dps. Raids are balanced around the assumption the whole group will have max might stacks the whole fight. I imagine anyone using a LFR will not beat the enrage timer on some bosses, especially largos without might. This is why meta exists. To make sure the group has the buff it needs to beat the raid.

> >

> > So I ask again, do you demand a druid and ensure the group has might, giving a reasonable chance of cdlearing the fight? Or do you not ask for one, rejecting the meta but chancing you will get 3 scrapper healers who cannot give any might.

>

> it's not like druid is the only class that can buff might, also if you join as support/healer you should know that u need to buff and heal, if someone on the raid is already doing it you can always change if necessary;

>

It is one of the only classes that can give permanent might to the entire group on every boss. The other being tempest. Again, most people who would use LFR do NOT have multiple classes to swap too, let alone multiple healers.

If people joining should know they need to buff might as a healer, then you say they should only queue as druid or tempest heal. Basically enforcing the meta. Because thats why people in LFG ask for a druid in the first place.

> > > > What about alacrity and quickness?

> > > > There are multiple ways to obtain 100% quickness and alacrity, most of these roles also double as healer or dps. Will the lfr be able to adapt and changes its requirements for example if a hfb joins, removing the need for 1 healer but necessitating an alcren instead of boon chrono for alacrity.

> > >

> > > if someone want to min max stats they should make a manual raid, the mm should be for players that want to have fun and try to finish it, so everyone can enjoy end content even if having a harder time.

> > >

> > Once again, raids are balanced around the expectation that the group will have permanent alacrity and quickness buffs. If you have a group without those buffs you lose more than half the squads damage. Most LFR groups will not be able to beat the bosses with no buffs. This once again shows you dont even understand the most basic stuff about raids.

> does not matter if they can't beat it, it's better than only 1% of the player doing it, at least they joined a raid and tried, also they can always talk to each other to try to change a class if needed.

>

It does matter. Like cyninja said if players try to raid in a horrible group setup with terrible boons and fail, which they will, they will get a horrible impression of raids and never want to go back.

> > > > What about specilized roles?

> > > > Many raid bosses need a special role, that often needs a special build in order to function. Will the LFR recognize these roles, what about roles where the player is expected to not only do the special mechanic, but also provide dps or heals. e.g pusher for desmina, lamp for qadim. How will it check the player who joins is suitable for both these jobs.

> > >

> > > the only way to kill the raid boss is with that role? players defined it or anet? if so something is very wrong with the class balance.

> > > if you can kill with other classes should it matter? min max players should do their own raid.

> > >

> > Yes the only way to kill that boss is with that role. While several classes can hand kite on deimos, if you dont have someone who knows how to do it you cannot kill the boss. You will wipe within the first minute. This is true of several bosses who need special roles.

>

> so just because they going to fail first time does not mean they need to disband, they can just try until they learn.

I am telling you if they do not have the proper build to do that mechanic they will die. Over and over. Nomatter how much they practice they will die.

Here is a good example so you can maybe start to understand and stop arguing about this you have no idea of. Deimos is a raid boss. Once of his mechanics is he puts an aoe on the feet of the person furthest away from him. This aoe stacks 5 times, a few seconds pause and begins stacking again. 1 stack alone is enough to instakill an average dps player. They need to constantly keep moving and never stand in a stack to survive. However if they do this the aoe will be spread ALL over the arena, leaving no space for the group to fight the boss. So at minimum the person dealing with this aoe needs to stand still until 3 stacks are under their feet before they can move on.

To do this they need alot of self heal and some damage absorption. On top of this, deimos does a oneshot attack. They need to be able to block it. You can see now hopefully why they need a special build and be experienced with the aoe mechanic to not wipe the whole group.

>

> > > > What about wing full clears?

> > > > Will the LFR be limited to 1 boss only. How can it check that players can even open that boss. If it accounts for full wing clears, what about special mechanics there. Will it be able to put together a sufficient group for say, desmina that needs full condi dps and a special mechanics and then power dps for statues, and finally 3 special mechanics for dhuum. I assume gear checker will be in place for single bosses but thats not possible for multibosses, what about people who lie and join saying they can do special roles, then when the group reaches that boss they are useless. Can you kick them? If yes will the LFR recognise which role was kicked and replace it properly?

> > >

> > > this is a complex question, but anet can put a info to players that they should have more than one gear available to change the type of the dps for different types of bosses or they going to fail, players at first time will not know what they going to face until they learn the raid, older players should teach them, everyone using the mm should know they going to face random players.

> > >

> > > if the raid really need that special role because of anet definition then the mm should look for someone at that role without losing the raid progression.

> > > a vote kick can be a good thing only if all the players accept it, the problem is toxic players using dps checks that can be a cancer.

> >

> >

> > >

> > You havnt answered half my questions. IF its only 1 boss how will the LFR even make sure the boss can be opened.

> >

> > Older player should not be forced to teach new , but many choose to through guilds. What do you do if your LFR doesn't have any old players to help.

> so older player that join with the MM should know that's for random players and can't rage, if he want he can always go and do it with his guild, this is a system for players without 10 people to play.

> > I am talking about special roles that also double as a default position in the group. EG. A pusher at desmina that also heals. WIll the LFR be able to understand that the prevsious person who left was duoing as both pusher and heal, and search now for someone queued as push heal. Or will it just look for push, leaving the group down 1 heal. What if it cant find someone queued as both push and heal?

>

> it's a matchmaking not a 100% win rate raid making, of course people are gonna fail, but at least they tried, also they can always learn how to do it.

>

I have told you. You MUST have special mechanics covered or you will instawipe the group. anything less than 100% when it comes to these roles is worthless. you wont even get to try. You will die almost instantly every single time.

> > If anet warns people they need 2 different dps builds, but they ignore it and only bring 1 what then? You do realize raids have an enrage timer. Some which will instakill you if you do not deal enough damage to beat it. What if someone in your group is not doing enough damage to beat the timer. What if it is causing the group to fail over and over? Isnt that person toxic by joining as a role they cannot do and causing the group to fail? Should they be kicked? Is it still toxic then?

>

> it's toxic to kick someone just because he is new or because of dps meters, now if he is ignoring everyone and not even trying, kicking is the option, also if someone join a raid with a big warning telling you to bring more than one gear, he should know he is joining a harder end game content and can't complain if they kick him or fail.

>

It is not toxic. If that person fails to do the bare minimum damage needs to beat the boss, which is about 25% of what the class is capable of, they should not be in a raid. Like you said , they should know they are joining harder end game content and should not complain if they get kicked because they were unprepared. Whether that is bringing the wrong gear, or not learning how to play their class.

> > > > All in all, it would need a very complex algorithm to even come close to being effective at making useful groups and the amount of work it would take to make that happen seems excessive when LFG can perform almost the same function, with more agency to players at the cost of some convenience.

> > >

> > > it's better having a hard time doing a raid with randoms than never do it

> > I disagree

>

> no one is forcing you use it, it's a system for players that don't have a 10 premade raid, like 99% of the player base, also everyone know that a raid is a end game content and will be hard, the matchmaking isn't to sure a win, it's to find people to group simple as that

>

>

With your version of matchmaking no group would ever ever have even the slightest chance to win. they would all fail, horribly. And as people realize they have no chance to win ever by joinging LFR they would stop using it. Very soon, it would be totally dead, just like the LFR in strike missions is.

What you seem to refuse to understand is that raids have basic requirements in order to beat them. They are balanced around having these requirements fulfilled in your group. If you group does not fulfil these basic requirements you have no chance at all. It is pointless even trying. This is not bad game design nor is it toxic. These requirements are there because the content is suppose to be challenging and force you to take advantage of all the tools available to beat it. If these requirements did not exist, anyone who was choosing to fully use these tools would find raids to be extremely easy and have no challenge at all, which would defeat the point of raids themselves.

A LFR that does not guarantee your squad has all these requirements met is useless as the group it forms has no chance of beating the boss. However, creating a LFR that meets these requirement is very difficult and has many unsolvable problems like the questions I originally gave to you. You however are totally unable to answer even a few.

Here is a secret. I cannot answer them either. Neither I imagine can anyone in this thread. This is because these problems have no answer due to the way raids and groups work in this game. However most other people in this thread understand this. You however do not due to your total lack of understand of how raids work.

> @"SeikeNz.3526" said:

> > @"zombyturtle.5980" said:

> > Questions for OP

> >

> > How will role selecting work. BY self selecting roles or gear checking and auto placing roles?

>

> anet can define a minimum of roles for each raid to be possible to finish it, if it's possible to finish it with 1 or 2 healers then the mm should know it and search for players that signed as healers, gear checking should not be a thing, if players want to check everything they should make a manual raid, also this is toxic.

>

It is possible to finish most raids with 0 heals. That does not mean 99% of the playerbase will be capable of doing the raid with no heals. In fact, most players would wipe within a few minutes without at least 1 healer. This is why I ask, what should the LFR ask for. In general 3 healers are considered too much for a raid, but there are many groups that do raid that NEED 3 healers to complete it.

You say gear check is toxic

> > If its the former, what about players who say they are healer, but have dps gear. If its the latter, gear checking is controversial enough as it is. Will it ban you if you dont have good enough gear/stats? How will the LFR decide whats needed in the first place. E.g 1 heal vs 2 or even 3

>

> about the gear anet can implement a system and info that everyone should have at least a purple gear to do it, they can auto check if the player is using some healing power gear if they queue as healer or a minimum heal power, if not he can't queue as healer.

> they should know a minimum to finish it.

>

> players that want min max should do their own raid.

And then immedatly say the game should gear check you.

>

> > Is this LFR going to enfore the meta?

>

> meta should not be a thing.

>

> > Will it demand each group has a druid or will it only request healers. If it lacks a druid, what happens when 3 scrappers join and the group has 0 might uptime.

>

> does the raid demand a druid or a healer? if a healer, the class should not matter, scrappers should not be queued as healers if they can't heal, if the dps is low and the party going to have a hard time does not matter, if they can finish it.

> if druid is a bad healer it's anet problem on balacing classes.

>

You clearly have no idea how raids work then. It does matter if the dps is low. Too low dps and the boss will enrage, usually wiping everyone instantly.

The druid is taken to give might to the entire group. Without any might you lose +750 power and condition damage massively reducing the groups dps. Raids are balanced around the assumption the whole group will have max might stacks the whole fight. I imagine anyone using a LFR will not beat the enrage timer on some bosses, especially largos without might. This is why meta exists. To make sure the group has the buff it needs to beat the raid.

So I ask again, do you demand a druid and ensure the group has might, giving a reasonable chance of cdlearing the fight? Or do you not ask for one, rejecting the meta but chancing you will get 3 scrapper healers who cannot give any might.

> > What about alacrity and quickness?

> > There are multiple ways to obtain 100% quickness and alacrity, most of these roles also double as healer or dps. Will the lfr be able to adapt and changes its requirements for example if a hfb joins, removing the need for 1 healer but necessitating an alcren instead of boon chrono for alacrity.

>

> if someone want to min max stats they should make a manual raid, the mm should be for players that want to have fun and try to finish it, so everyone can enjoy end content even if having a harder time.

>

Once again, raids are balanced around the expectation that the group will have permanent alacrity and quickness buffs. If you have a group without those buffs you lose more than half the squads damage. Most LFR groups will not be able to beat the bosses with no buffs. This once again shows you dont even understand the most basic stuff about raids.

> > What about specilized roles?

> > Many raid bosses need a special role, that often needs a special build in order to function. Will the LFR recognize these roles, what about roles where the player is expected to not only do the special mechanic, but also provide dps or heals. e.g pusher for desmina, lamp for qadim. How will it check the player who joins is suitable for both these jobs.

>

> the only way to kill the raid boss is with that role? players defined it or anet? if so something is very wrong with the class balance.

> if you can kill with other classes should it matter? min max players should do their own raid.

>

Yes the only way to kill that boss is with that role. While several classes can hand kite on deimos, if you dont have someone who knows how to do it you cannot kill the boss. You will wipe within the first minute. This is true of several bosses who need special roles.

> > What about wing full clears?

> > Will the LFR be limited to 1 boss only. How can it check that players can even open that boss. If it accounts for full wing clears, what about special mechanics there. Will it be able to put together a sufficient group for say, desmina that needs full condi dps and a special mechanics and then power dps for statues, and finally 3 special mechanics for dhuum. I assume gear checker will be in place for single bosses but thats not possible for multibosses, what about people who lie and join saying they can do special roles, then when the group reaches that boss they are useless. Can you kick them? If yes will the LFR recognise which role was kicked and replace it properly?

>

> this is a complex question, but anet can put a info to players that they should have more than one gear available to change the type of the dps for different types of bosses or they going to fail, players at first time will not know what they going to face until they learn the raid, older players should teach them, everyone using the mm should know they going to face random players.

>

> if the raid really need that special role because of anet definition then the mm should look for someone at that role without losing the raid progression.

> a vote kick can be a good thing only if all the players accept it, the problem is toxic players using dps checks that can be a cancer.

>

You havnt answered half my questions. IF its only 1 boss how will the LFR even make sure the boss can be opened.

Older player should not be forced to teach new , but many choose to through guilds. What do you do if your LFR doesn't have any old players to help.

I am talking about special roles that also double as a default position in the group. EG. A pusher at desmina that also heals. WIll the LFR be able to understand that the prevsious person who left was duoing as both pusher and heal, and search now for someone queued as push heal. Or will it just look for push, leaving the group down 1 heal. What if it cant find someone queued as both push and heal?

If anet warns people they need 2 different dps builds, but they ignore it and only bring 1 what then? You do realize raids have an enrage timer. Some which will instakill you if you do not deal enough damage to beat it. What if someone in your group is not doing enough damage to beat the timer. What if it is causing the group to fail over and over? Isnt that person toxic by joining as a role they cannot do and causing the group to fail? Should they be kicked? Is it still toxic then?

> > All in all, it would need a very complex algorithm to even come close to being effective at making useful groups and the amount of work it would take to make that happen seems excessive when LFG can perform almost the same function, with more agency to players at the cost of some convenience.

>

> it's better having a hard time doing a raid with randoms than never do it

I disagree

Questions for OP

How will role selecting work. BY self selecting roles or gear checking and auto placing roles?

If its the former, what about players who say they are healer, but have dps gear. If its the latter, gear checking is controversial enough as it is. Will it ban you if you dont have good enough gear/stats? How will the LFR decide whats needed in the first place. E.g 1 heal vs 2 or even 3

Is this LFR going to enfore the meta?

Will it demand each group has a druid or will it only request healers. If it lacks a druid, what happens when 3 scrappers join and the group has 0 might uptime.

What about alacrity and quickness?

There are multiple ways to obtain 100% quickness and alacrity, most of these roles also double as healer or dps. Will the lfr be able to adapt and changes its requirements for example if a hfb joins, removing the need for 1 healer but necessitating an alcren instead of boon chrono for alacrity.

What about specilized roles?

Many raid bosses need a special role, that often needs a special build in order to function. Will the LFR recognize these roles, what about roles where the player is expected to not only do the special mechanic, but also provide dps or heals. e.g pusher for desmina, lamp for qadim. How will it check the player who joins is suitable for both these jobs.

What about wing full clears?

Will the LFR be limited to 1 boss only. How can it check that players can even open that boss. If it accounts for full wing clears, what about special mechanics there. Will it be able to put together a sufficient group for say, desmina that needs full condi dps and a special mechanics and then power dps for statues, and finally 3 special mechanics for dhuum. I assume gear checker will be in place for single bosses but thats not possible for multibosses, what about people who lie and join saying they can do special roles, then when the group reaches that boss they are useless. Can you kick them? If yes will the LFR recognise which role was kicked and replace it properly?

All in all, it would need a very complex algorithm to even come close to being effective at making useful groups and the amount of work it would take to make that happen seems excessive when LFG can perform almost the same function, with more agency to players at the cost of some convenience.

> @"Croc.1978" said:

> > @"zombyturtle.5980" said:

> > Answering your question, no I would have no issue surviving in soliders, everything would just take 2-3x as long.

> >

>

> Come on, don't exaggerate. If the wiki and my calculations are correct: going from full Soldier's (5% crit chance & 150% crit dmg) to full Berserker's ascended gear (51% crit chance & 214% crit dmg) translates to about 54% more damage (assuming everything else stays the same), not 100% - 200% as you claim.

>

> You can achieve the same for instance with two +20% and one +10% damage multipliers from traits (granted, it's mostly conditional, but still). It appears to me that this community has an unhealthy and unwarranted fixation on critical hits.

I dont play full beserker. I play assassin/zerker to get 100% crit cap. I would also have to change some traits, losing more damage.

I would also have to spend way more time blocking or dodging attacks since I cant oneshot burst adds, adding more time to combat.

> @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > @"zombyturtle.5980" said:

> > Personally I dont care if people run soldiers in open world, as long as they dont bring it into instanced content with me. I do think its a horrible gearset and a noob trap though.

> Those Full-Berserkers in Vanilla were happy when I face-tanked pre-first-nerf Lupi for them with my full Soldier Warrior.

Im sure they were. I would not have been. I never found a tank needed on lupi.

If you want to bring soldiers into instanced groups that are happy to have it go for it. I just choose to not play with people in stats that make no sense in group content.

The game has evolved so much since vanilla and there are many many better gear sets to use where having a tank is appropriate.

> @"Ototo.3214" said:

> > @"coso.9173" said:

> > boneskinner isn't mainly about keeping the torches lit and avoiding AOEs?

>

> From what I can tell, people seem to completely ignore that mechanic in favor of just rotating around the boss and avoiding the damage. Makes the chieves hard to get sadly

Its actually easier to get hold onto the light with the cheese strat. Either bring 2 necros and use spectral grasp to instakill wisps, or hold dps until bone puts out all torches, then kill him. Wisps will have no torches left to put out. Light the torches can be done solo without touching the boss.

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> A question for the "Go glass or go home!" crowd:

>

> Would you struggle to survive in soldier gear? Why or why not?

Personally I dont care if people run soldiers in open world, as long as they dont bring it into instanced content with me. I do think its a horrible gearset and a noob trap though.

Answering your question, no I would have no issue surviving in soliders, everything would just take 2-3x as long.

Great news. Hoping for a turtle, dolphin or shark skin.

Guardian ranger warrior and rev all are meta classes in both raids in fractals.

Comparing HOT to dark souls is ridiculous. HOT is about normal difficult for your average single player game. You only need to understand how active combat works, and play your classes advantages to have little issue with standard adds. Unfortunately, most people in this game dont have a clue how to actually play and just run around in random builds, never dodging then we get posts like this.

Hero points are a different issue, and making them require groups was controversial. Personally I dont mind it but I do understand the complaints, one which was addressed in POF, which are soloable. Luckily, to max out your character, you never need to complete a single champion hero point in the game so just stick to the ones you can do.

> @"panzerdragon.8791" said:

> Yeh I lold as well , but let's look at op point of view. He sees hc players as raiders and grinders getting all the good stuff. True if you engage in neither grinding or in end game content then yeh no rewards for you. No legendary from grinding or ascended armor and leg armor from fracs and raids. If you play super casul like 3 hours a week or just do the daily and log off then yeh the game might seem stacked.

>

>

I agree with you but simple matter of fact is the game cannot survive on players who only log in for 3 hours a week. It would be dead if they were the only players. If you do not give players who play alot, or even average hours, something to do they will get bored and leave. THEN most content in the game will actually become impossible, and rewards unreachable since there is noone to play with.

Anyone who considers whisper of jormag as hardcore content is beyond casual, and shouldnt speak for all casual players.

If OP does not like grind and grouping, then an MMO was the worst choice of game, its like joining an FPS game and complaining you hate shooting.

This is just another rant of someone wanting everything handed to them with 0 effort hidden behind a massive wall of text, with some unsubstantiated claims about 'hardcore' and group content players thrown in for good measure.

For what its worth, I disagree with basically everything the OP argues about and think its borderline hilarious for someone to be complaining gw2 ignores its casual playerbase, considering thats the ONLY playerbase the game is currently supporting.

I am a player who does group content , occasionally raiding and doing cms and I am permanently broke in game, usually sittting on 3g max. If i want something from the gem store, I have to pay for it with rl money, which I used to do, but dont anymore since anet stopped making content I enjoy.

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > > @"Henry.5713" said:

> > > > Couldn't agree more. The usual forums complainers certainly made sure to turn Strike discussions into Raid discussions 2.0.

> > >

> > > Not more raids being developed , a casual playerbase surely doesn't need the toxicity of raid players , that toxicity did cost you dearly now...hope you lot "pro players" are happy now

> >

> > The only toxicity in regards to raids that I see are from those that call raiders toxic. “Toxic casual” is a real thing.

> >

> > Players that want to play with others with the same mentality as them are not toxic. Those wanting to force other players to play with them are toxic. Those joining groups that they do not meet the requirements for, get kicked as a result, and then complain/demonize those players for it are toxic.

> >

> > As has been the case since the beginning of the game when we saw similar complaints about LFG, **you’re always free to create your own LFG and play with those that have the same mindset as you (e.g. casual, no meta, whatever).**

>

> If you have standards...then **put the requirements in the LFG**! Right now there are "Tags" who display : LFG for more and you join with makeshift DPS build, no raid material but not even a so called leecher, you may not reach 35k snowcrow benchmark table..but you do enough to earn Gold reward and yet.....people then complain saying you're leeching? If you're dying to use ArcDPS...put the LI req and spare people your toxicity

>

> I see....you don't find players fast enough with your LI reqs? No I don't try to join your l33t team with LI reqs....**you ask for normal players while secretly using ArcDPS** then throwing a tantrum if the DPS not up with your speed run standards

>

>

I stopped making all welcome groups because I got toxic people who would leech the first 3 bosses, barely doing more than autoattacking then leave before the 'challenging' ones in a all strike lfg. Now I ask for kp. Groups take about 5 mins more to fill but people actually contribute, and dont leave halfway.

I have had many many people join, refuse to ping kp and then flame me in whisper and map chat though. Compared to the 2-3 toxic raiders who didnt think the group was good enough back when i ran all welcome. In my experience toxic casuals are far more common and have made my experience much worse than toxic raiders, along with driving me away from accepting new players.

> @"Cynder.2509" said:

> Having the same problem like others that nobody is doing anything to contribute to the meta and most lfg groups are full maps anyways and they even advertise it as full then. I don't see why you would advertise for a full map. Either remove it or don't host at all.

> Anyways, it's a shame that nobody wants to do the new map meta as it's quite very profitable (got about 100g from just one run).

> I really enjoyed the "old" one and the new extension because it kinda feels immersive to me considering the lore behind the whole thing. Maybe I might enjoy this a lot more because of how much gold you can get out of the whole thing. :tongue:

Loads of people are doing new meta all the time however Its very hard to jump into north maps atm as they are almost always full with people who have completed south, which is also why there are no LFG.

New south meta maps fill up in less than 5 mins so if you want to join an active map you have to be quick with LFG. Alternatively, if you land in a dead map you can tag up and will find an almost full squad in minutes to do both metas.