HisRoyalDudeness.8637

> @"Me Games Ma.8426" said:

> > @"HisRoyalDudeness.8637" said:

> > When Signet of Midnight active effect is used with an autoattack option enabled on your weapon, you start attacking right after you use it, breaking stealth (rendering SoM with greatsword useless in most situations).

>

> Actually that is not true.

> Let me explain what you're experiencing:

> Decoy and The Prestige for example can not be used while other skills are being cast. Both of these skills will interrupt any ability you're casting and take priority.

> Signet of Midnight however does not interrupt the use of skills. And as such it looks like you get revealed right away because your autoattack did not get interrupted.

>

> When I autoattack with GS and use Decoy I interrupt my attack and gain stealth and the autoattack gets paused because I gained stealth.

> When I autoattack with GS and use SoM I gain stealth, finish my current autoattack and the autoattack gets paused because I gained stealth.

>

> However if you time SoM perfectly, you won't start another autoattack.

>

> So the correct wording would be "Signet of Midnight does not interrupt other casts. This behaviour is not common amongst other stealth abilities."

>

> Anyways, thanks for bringing this to my attention. I'll update the list :)

Actually, tried this using Signet of Midnight out of combat (not casting autoattack or anything else) while targeting a hostile unit. When I use SoM in this situation, I immediately start attacking my target, breaking stealth (might be happening in a combination with a specific option I have enabled?).

When Signet of Midnight active effect is used with an autoattack option enabled on your weapon, you start attacking right after you use it, breaking stealth (rendering SoM with greatsword useless in most situations).

Feel free to try mine!

Not really sure about it's general effectivity for roaming/duelling/outnumbered/whatever, but if meme build is what you are looking for, meme build is what you get:

> @"Nepster.4275" said:

> > @"HisRoyalDudeness.8637" said:

> > > @"Nepster.4275" said:

> > > People are still mad because mirage can dodge while being CCd...Okey. You are mad because other classes cant do that, right? Sure, but you know, other classes walk around minimum of 2000 stability stacks and aegis spam. Mirage is a visual cluster, okey... This is a thing what makes mirage into a trickster class, you cant play carlessly, since if you waste your dodge on offense then you will get CCd after 3 second and you cant do nothing about it only if you use EM, but with that you will get deleted because you will be unable to dodge. T~~he rework of IH trait is interesting since you said empower the illusions, so can you explain how? I mean, clones do no damage so you can empower them by condition apply, phantasms do damage, but for that you would need to dodge immediately after creating a phantasm so it means you would break your combo for nothing basically because phantasms can get blocked or dodged, so you wasted a defensive game mechanic(dodge) for offensive purpose and its still not sure weither it will hit or no.~~If you mean to use the illusions without any real use only to have them as a 3 stack damage modify, then its okey too...Just give mirage some other defensive traits

> > >

> > > I dont know why people are so obsessed with mirage and its state...It was not even considered as META till the 11/12 patch because boonbeast and holo was too good against basically any class.Even people who played mirage on a high level said that its basically useless against meta classes.If for example a mirage(no matter if power or condi) plays against a same skill level boonbeast or holo there is very little chance of the mirage to win(maybe after the patch it has significantly better chance but still not 100%)

> >

> > Stop with your argument ad hominem right there.

> > I am not mad and if I was, it does not matter in this discussion. I've always played mesmer almost exclusively, the same applies to mirage from the PoF release. This neither matters at all.

> > I've stated my take on the issues, everything you need to work with is in the initial post in this topic. Avoid trying to take into account any attitude and sentiment I might or might not have on this topic.

> >

> > Trickster class based on visual clutter rather than skillful use of tools is, in my opinion, a bad design.. As stated in the initial post. If you take issues with this point, please clarify why.

> > You can do a lot of thinks when caught in hard CC: Blink away, Illusionary Ambush away, Jaunt away, use Signed of Midnight, Distortion, daze with Diversion, daze with Power Lock, blind with any shatter through Blinding Dissipation.

> > With the suggested IH change, the illusions would still autoattack as usual, only the current clone ambush skill damage would be transferred into your ambush skill.. But as I've already said, it's but a suggestion, ready to be dismantled and changed through discussion.

> >

> > There are many busted classes and mechanics in this game, this topic however focuses on the mirage.

>

> Sorry if you felt offensive things from what i said, all i tried to say is that there are more classes that can do what mirage can do but in other ways, for example take a less meta class: Thief. The thing with mirage, is that you are limited with the amount of blinks and stunbreaks. As with other classes, so even if thief cant dodge while CCd it can break stuns BUT a thief never should get CCd since you have like unlimited amount of tools to jump between the two sides of the map. Mesmer so Mirage too should be a dueling profession, thats why you need to have tools such as F4 and things like that like dodge while CCd, this makes Mirage unique, i could say again that mesmers dont have tools in its kit that other classes have, but this is what it means to play different classes, so you have better options on what you want to do. Mirage is still not something that cant be destroyed by any other class if that other class is played good. Yes, IH MAYBE is a bit overtuned, but there are 2 things with that: 1st is that its a grandmaster trait so it should give you an edge when you choose it compared to a minor trait, 2nd thats the ONLY usable trait in the whole traitline, like, if you think about it the whole mirage traitline does not give you anything big, only the new dodge and IH and some condition damage. Mirage getting nerfed since launch almost, can we just all stop asking for more? Because i can understand that some people getting fustrated when they get one shot by a mirage BUT on the other side of the map a slb and a support fb is 2v4 ing your team without any problems.

> As far as i know, mirage is only good against unorganized teams, if the enemy team is premade they focus you down to a level where you get chain CCd and you cant escape with anything because of pulls, and in the middle of a teamfight 2second evade will not save your life, especially if you tried to do some damage by using your dodge.Mirage has problems yes, but those are mostly problems that not needed to be nerfed but buffed or changed

It was not about you being offensive (if you were, I was not offended by it), it's just that argument ad hominem is counterproductive to any constructive discussion.

This topic is not about nerfing the mirage, the "buff and change" is fine if it accomplishes positive things. This topic is about finding a way to fix issues with the current design in the best way possible.

This is the structure we are dealing with in this topic:


1. First we need to establish whether the list of issues I've presented is valid or not. Do you see any of my points as irrelevant? What are your reasons? Can you think of any other issues I forgot to add on the list?

2. When we have established our list of relevant issues with the design that need fixing, we can derive a vision from them. If the issues listed are valid but you see my vision derived from them as invalid, why is it? What other vision do you have?

3. When we have established both the issues in a need of fixing and a vision we would like to reach, we can start making suggestions - what changes to make to fix the issues and reach the vision in the best way possible. If you don't see my listed issues as invalid, you think my vision does not need any changes, but you don't like the suggestions I've presented, why and what changes do you yourself propose to avoid the problems you see in my suggestions and to reach the vision through fixing the issues in a better way?

The initial post in this topic is literally this - a draft version of this, so we have something to start with.

> @"SteepledHat.1345" said:

> No, this is about what it always is. Making mesmer unviable in an attempt to help unskilled silvers and below.

The way you interpret it changes nothing on the real reason I started this topic, my intentions behind it and what I wanted to accomplish with it.

> @"SteepledHat.1345" said:

> This thread is a heavy attempt at disguising complete destruction of mesmer. I'm sick of this kitten.

It's an attempt at starting a constructive discussion. An attempt that failed miserably, since there are not enough people to really understand what I was aiming for.

> @"tinyreborn.1938" said:

> > @"HisRoyalDudeness.8637" said:

> Your 'cant see dps loss' need to be seen on practice first XD

> > @"Curunen.8729" said:

> ^ I pretty much agree with this lad.

> Dont have issues with IH visuals as well .

> Just increase CD for Illusionary ambush to 30 and slap 20% cd reduction on self deception.

What's your base for stating the DPS would be lower then, if there's no theoretical reason for it to be so?

> @"Curunen.8729" said:

> > @"HisRoyalDudeness.8637" said:

> > Anyway, I still don't see one single constructive comment here, this is failing as a brainstorming/giving info to devs topic miserably.

> >

> > I've made a list of issues I see with the design

> > I've stated how I would like to handle them

> > I've given suggestions on how it could be done.

> >

> > It's but an idea. A food for thought. A "look at this guys, let's try to figure something out" kind of situation.

> > If you see problems in what I am presenting, it's beneficial to say why:

> > Is the core issue with the design listed invalid? Why?

> > Is the way I am trying to handle it wrong? Why?

> > Are the suggestions unfit to solve the issues in the way I want to handle them? In what way and how it could be handled better?

> >

> > I feel like I am just repeating myself over and over again.

>

> That's a bit rude tbh, people have given feedback even if some is in disagreement.

>

> I can restate the same feedback - I believe the visual effect of clones ambushing with the mirage is an excellent thematic design and should remain in the game, whether as an optional trait or redesigned to be the backbone of the spec. I am not bothered by the visual effects when fighting against an IH mirage and have no issue with targeting etc. Sure if you want to offload the damage portion to the mesmer's ambush only then this is ok - which means clones would ambush for the visual effect but do little/no damage or cc, though this to me seems a case of reducing clone ambush damage/cc/condi and shifting more of it to the player.

>

> I don't agree on the one point of mortrialus regarding DE/IH synergy, where to me it is a good mechanic to for example dodge and move forward to benefit from the boons from a DE spawned staff clone ambushing behind you. For the record it wouldn't bother me if this was changed, I just don't think it needs to be.

>

> I support your decision on EM allowing dodge while cc as is currently standard on mirage, removing this feature from the base spec, and thus removing the exhaustion - although again this would cause it to be a "must have" trait in pvp/wvw, overshadowing anything else, which may or may not be a new problem.

>

> And I agree with your changes to Dune Cloak, but don't agree there should be a 20% Deception cooldown tacked on there because I don't believe any of the Deception skills need this currently, unless they all suddenly get nerfed to much higher cooldowns.

>

> Overall I believe that by the next expansion elite specs drop, Mirage ought to have a much deeper rework to traits and the foundation - because sadly it seems that no iteration of these GM major traits is going to provide the necessary variety while being balanced, when mirage has the ability to dodge while cced baseline, and two of the GM traits are fighting for best in slot due to enabling such fundamental game changing features (clone ambush and dodge while cced or breaking cc).

I did not mean to be rude and I apologize if it is the feeling you are getting from my style of communication.

It's just that I couldn't really use any of the feedback to modify the structure of my draft version, since there's no information to work with in that context in the feedback given by most people.

Thanks for your feedback.

> @"tinyreborn.1938" said:

> > @"HisRoyalDudeness.8637" said:

> > I don't **want** anything, I am merely presenting a case for it to be taken into account, dismantled, played with, brainstormed about, reshaped and a conclusion to be reached.

> I wonder how.... Especially defeating purpose of mirage if traited IH to not give away real mesmer among clones while doding since all clones would go AFK and everyone would see real one from another planet. Or you are unable to find real one that actually moving/jumping/ using skils ? And you tell me about being biased . LOL

> > I still don't see how IH would be nerfed by the change in PvE however... If it's caused by my limited perception, I ask you to widen it for me.

> Mirage dps heavily depends on clones to do damage/bleeds procs from multiple attacks/ambush ,do you play pve? Clones would be AFK every few seconds you use ambush ,clones dont hit anymore and dont proc bleeds/ambush,how with your change mirage would do damage? What insane numbers your personal ambush will have? Apply 40 torments/40 bleeds to be on par with others? In pvp we will have same numbers I hope ? xD

> > Speaking of DC, your argument falls under the "major grandmaster traits have no personality" issue listed in my initial post.

> Your suggestions doesnt help to fix it, its need to be new and unique but instead its copypaste and weaker than another version.

> 20% deception recharge must been on self deception trait , thief have similar trait in daredevil spec reducing all new daredevil specific utilities/heal/elite to have reduced recharge AND give a bit of endurance for its use. Mesmer get pathetic clone with a condition on it ,to spawn it. Deceptive evasion two, some1 out of ideas for new elite specs .

> Also

> >Sand Shards is used 1/2 into Mirage Cloak rather than from the start. Has a distinct "charging-up" animation, making the opponent know something is coming, effectively baiting a dodge while also making him know what trait he is facing.

> Why there should be 'charging' animation ? You are again want to give away real mesmer instant as he use dodge . Why opponents must know what we are playing ...? They alrdy see if clones are dodging/ambushing or not, if we have exhaust after cc or not or they dont even notice this DC xDDDDDDDD

> > We are all biased, it's in our nature. I am but pointing out a specific case for you in your argumentation. No hard feelings.

> Hardly biased , you can't foresee consequence of your suggestions even . Your IH/Dune cloak defeat purpose of being mesmer , you could just ask paint real mesmer in red color so it would be easier to spot

In the case of IH in PvE:

There's damage from clones autoattacking while not under the effect of mirage cloak, there's damage from clones using ambush skill under the effect of mirage cloak and there's damage from a player using ambush skill. For simplification, let's say they each deal 1k dps - 1000+1000+1000=3000

After the suggested change, there's damage from clones autoattacking while not under the effect of mirage cloak, no damage from clones being under the effect of mirage cloak and there's damage from a player using his empowered ambush skill. In this case, the damage from clones' ambush skill is transferred into player's ambush skill - 1000+0+2000=3000

Still can't see the loss of dps.

The "charging up animation" was my half-baked attempt at modifiing the current design to make it mode "trickster-like" (baiting dodges, as stated before). Can understand the issue with the real mesmer being easily identifiable though. That's why I am asking for feedback and alternative suggestions.

The same goes for the suggested IH change - it's but a suggestion, aimed to reduce the visual clutter. Do you think the "bad trickster class design through visual clutter" and "new players unable to learn from the fight" points listed above are invalid? Or do you have any ideas of your own how it could be handled better?

As I've already stated many times before, the suggestions listed by me are but a draft version.

As someone who is interested in psychology, neurology and the mechanisms that define human perception and behavior, I am of the opinion that we are all biased, so no point for you taking my statement personally. There are many cognitive biases that may not even fall under your concept of "bias", making you misinterpret what I am talking about. If interested, here's this for starters:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases

> @"tinyreborn.1938" said:

> > @"HisRoyalDudeness.8637" said:

> > > @"tinyreborn.1938" said:

> > > > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> > > > I would rather nerf infinite horizon change mirage cloak to non invurn=sacrifise dodging for dmg

> > >

> > > what kind of kitten is this ? Remove dodge rolls from entire class ... how such 'BRILLIANT' idea ... why you arent hired to anet balance team yet?

> > > >@HisRoyalDudeness.8637HisRoyalDudeness.8637

> > > >The changes I suggest are not meant to be "a hit" to mirage.

> > > More like a nuke from orbit and make sure no one ever would play mirage ,even in pve

> > > > And I'd rather like to see mirage reaching a state where it's easier to balance

> > > More like easier to be farmed in pvp with 2 broken hands?

> > > This thread makes me facepalm ...

> > > >Dune Cloak is fine, but generally not worth taking over Infinite Horizon.

> > > >Dune Cloak is fine, but generally not worth taking over Infinite Horizon

> > > >Dune Cloak is fine, but generally not worth taking over Infinite Horizon

> > > >Dune Cloak is fine, but generally not worth taking over Infinite Horizon

> > > >Dune Cloak is fine, but generally not worth taking over Infinite Horizon

> > > I'm quotted enough time to invalidate every OP ideas ?

> > > >! Since you dont get it ,its not taken because both EM/dune cloak are trash

> >

> > Laila is trolling, feeding him is not beneficial.

> >

> > Explain how it would "nuke mirage from orbit", why "nobody would play it in PvE" and how it would reach a state where it's "easier to be farmed in PvP with 2 broken hands". Is any of the issues listed invalid? Are the suggested changes a bad way of solving the issues? Why?

> >

> > Dune Cloak design is fine in the context of issues I listed above, since it does not cause them. IH being superior to both EM and DC is what I was saying, commenting before actually reading my initial post is not beneficial in any way.

> >

> > If any of my ideas presented is invalid in any way, it does not invalidate any of the others. This is a logical fallacy, based on your cognitive bias.

> I really should tell people why trash is trash and explain that in detail... ? I have other stuff to do

> In short IH would become unreliable trash , for pve damage loss will be insane(just like in pvp) since YOU want clones to be even more braindead than they are alrdy. Spam clones and only then you are allowed to take advantage of your ambush ,amazing idea , give this lad award for most stupid idea please.Oh ye, clones die in 1 autoattack , what an amazing trait it would be !

> IH power depends on current amount of clones , 0 clones, nothing happen ,magik .

> Dune cloak is just a pathetic copy of vent exhaust engi trait , that have lower damage in power and condition and doesnt even suits mesmer playstyle.

> Feel free to not respond with your nonsense in style 'you are just biased' , I have more important stuff to do than talking with a brick

I find your way of communication unsuitable for a constructive discussion. This is not meant to be a "I am gonna invalidate you because it makes me feel good" kind of game. If you have other stuff to do, not commenting at all is a better alternative to what you are doing now.

I don't **want** anything, I am merely presenting a case for it to be taken into account, dismantled, played with, brainstormed about, reshaped and a conclusion to be reached. I still don't see how IH would be nerfed by the change in PvE however... If it's caused by my limited perception, I ask you to widen it for me.

Speaking of DC, your argument falls under the "major grandmaster traits have no personality" issue listed in my initial post.

We are all biased, it's in our nature. I am but pointing out a specific case for you in your argumentation. No hard feelings.

Also:

"Spam clones and only then you are allowed to take advantage of your ambush" confuses me. With my suggestion, the ambush skill without clones would remain the same as it is now. Please, clarify what you are talking about.

> @"tinyreborn.1938" said:

> > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> > I would rather nerf infinite horizon change mirage cloak to non invurn=sacrifise dodging for dmg

>

> what kind of kitten is this ? Remove dodge rolls from entire class ... how such 'BRILLIANT' idea ... why you arent hired to anet balance team yet?

> >@HisRoyalDudeness.8637HisRoyalDudeness.8637

> >The changes I suggest are not meant to be "a hit" to mirage.

> More like a nuke from orbit and make sure no one ever would play mirage ,even in pve

> > And I'd rather like to see mirage reaching a state where it's easier to balance

> More like easier to be farmed in pvp with 2 broken hands?

> This thread makes me facepalm ...

> >Dune Cloak is fine, but generally not worth taking over Infinite Horizon.

> >Dune Cloak is fine, but generally not worth taking over Infinite Horizon

> >Dune Cloak is fine, but generally not worth taking over Infinite Horizon

> >Dune Cloak is fine, but generally not worth taking over Infinite Horizon

> >Dune Cloak is fine, but generally not worth taking over Infinite Horizon

> I'm quotted enough time to invalidate every OP ideas ?

> >! Since you dont get it ,its not taken because both EM/dune cloak are trash

Laila is trolling, feeding him is not beneficial.

Explain how it would "nuke mirage from orbit", why "nobody would play it in PvE" and how it would reach a state where it's "easier to be farmed in PvP with 2 broken hands". Is any of the issues listed invalid? Are the suggested changes a bad way of solving the issues? Why?

Dune Cloak design is fine in the context of issues I listed above, since it does not cause them. IH being superior to both EM and DC is what I was saying, commenting before actually reading my initial post is not beneficial in any way.

If any of my ideas presented is invalid in any way, it does not invalidate any of the others. This is a logical fallacy, based on your cognitive bias.

> @"Nepster.4275" said:

> People are still mad because mirage can dodge while being CCd...Okey. You are mad because other classes cant do that, right? Sure, but you know, other classes walk around minimum of 2000 stability stacks and aegis spam. Mirage is a visual cluster, okey... This is a thing what makes mirage into a trickster class, you cant play carlessly, since if you waste your dodge on offense then you will get CCd after 3 second and you cant do nothing about it only if you use EM, but with that you will get deleted because you will be unable to dodge. T~~he rework of IH trait is interesting since you said empower the illusions, so can you explain how? I mean, clones do no damage so you can empower them by condition apply, phantasms do damage, but for that you would need to dodge immediately after creating a phantasm so it means you would break your combo for nothing basically because phantasms can get blocked or dodged, so you wasted a defensive game mechanic(dodge) for offensive purpose and its still not sure weither it will hit or no.~~If you mean to use the illusions without any real use only to have them as a 3 stack damage modify, then its okey too...Just give mirage some other defensive traits

>

> I dont know why people are so obsessed with mirage and its state...It was not even considered as META till the 11/12 patch because boonbeast and holo was too good against basically any class.Even people who played mirage on a high level said that its basically useless against meta classes.If for example a mirage(no matter if power or condi) plays against a same skill level boonbeast or holo there is very little chance of the mirage to win(maybe after the patch it has significantly better chance but still not 100%)

Stop with your argument ad hominem right there.

I am not mad and if I was, it does not matter in this discussion. I've always played mesmer almost exclusively, the same applies to mirage from the PoF release. This neither matters at all.

I've stated my take on the issues, everything you need to work with is in the initial post in this topic. Avoid trying to take into account any attitude and sentiment I might or might not have on this topic.

Trickster class based on visual clutter rather than skillful use of tools is, in my opinion, a bad design.. As stated in the initial post. If you take issues with this point, please clarify why.

You can do a lot of thinks when caught in hard CC: Blink away, Illusionary Ambush away, Jaunt away, use Signed of Midnight, Distortion, daze with Diversion, daze with Power Lock, blind with any shatter through Blinding Dissipation.

With the suggested IH change, the illusions would still autoattack as usual, only the current clone ambush skill damage would be transferred into your ambush skill.. But as I've already said, it's but a suggestion, ready to be dismantled and changed through discussion.

There are many busted classes and mechanics in this game, this topic however focuses on the mirage.

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"HisRoyalDudeness.8637" said:

> > Anyway, I still don't see one single constructive comment here, this is failing as a brainstorming/giving info to devs topic miserably.

> >

> > I've made a list of issues I see with the design

> > I've stated how I would like to handle them

> > I've given suggestions on how it could be done.

> >

> > It's but an idea. A food for thought. A "look at this guys, let's try to figure something out" kind of situation.

> > If you see problems in what I am presenting, it's beneficial to say why:

> > Is the core issue with the design listed invalid? Why?

> > Is the way I am trying to handle it wrong? Why?

> > Are the suggestions unfit to solve the issues in the way I want to handle them? In what way and how it could be handled better?

> >

> > I feel like I am just repeating myself over and over again.

>

> I think the number of hold outs who think nothing needs to be done about dodge while CC and Elusive Mind is limited to just the developer team.

>

> I also pointed out I don't think Infinite Horizon is the problem right now, but Deceptive Evasion spawning clones Automatically doing ambush attacks. I think that's pretty constructive.

It is, more than anything in this topic.

The "untraited dodge in CC" and "Elusive Mind being harmful" is what I started with when thinking about this. IH and DC suggestions are but an option I came up with when trying to give them distinct personality (I liked the daredevil dodge system, each dodge being good for distinct playstyle, making opponents know what they are facing) and after witnessing what a particle mess can a single axe/staff mirage cause.

Do you see the "IH visual clutter issue" as invalid? Should nothing be done about it? If it's valid, is there a better way of handling it?

Anyway, I still don't see one single constructive comment here, this is failing as a brainstorming/giving info to devs topic miserably.

I've made a list of issues I see with the design

I've stated how I would like to handle them

I've given suggestions on how it could be done.

It's but an idea. A food for thought. A "look at this guys, let's try to figure something out" kind of situation.

If you see problems in what I am presenting, it's beneficial to say why:

Is the core issue with the design listed invalid? Why?

Is the way I am trying to handle it wrong? Why?

Are the suggestions unfit to solve the issues in the way I want to handle them? In what way and how it could be handled better?

I feel like I am just repeating myself over and over again.

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"HisRoyalDudeness.8637" said:

> > > @"SteepledHat.1345" said:

> > > > @"phokus.8934" said:

> > > > There’s no problem with IH or clones using ambush skills.

> > > >

> > > > Mirage Cloak I think everyone can agree with that you shouldn’t be able to dodge while cc’d without Elusive Mind.

> > >

> > > I don't. Every spec of mirage is at it's weakest already. It doesn't need anymore hits. Quite honestly, the community just needs to get better.

> >

> > The changes I suggest are not meant to be "a hit" to mirage. And I'd rather like to see mirage reaching a state where it's easier to balance (eliminating the confusing clutter and unrewarding counterplay, making it more skill based and less "let's nerf it, because confused people started complaining" based) and not getting unnecessary and half-baked nerfs every patch.

> > The "community just needs to get better" argument is something I expected to see here and it's precisely why I mentioned the "difficult games can be rewarding and fun to play when handled correctly". Any "L2P" issue can be resolved by learning. The current state of mirage however, does not allow people (especially beginners) to have enough motivation to persist learning. It's basic game design, tailored to how people and their motivations work in these situations.

> > You get feared, a scourge pops up near you, you die - you learn to avoid getting hit by fear and to stay away from scourges, killing them from range instead. Since you are able to apply the strategy and to see improvements in fights against scourges, you are able to persist with learning and get better, while having fun doing so.

> > Then a mirage pops up near you, flooding your entire screen with copies and particles, stealth, target breaking, teleports, invulnerabilities and dodging in hard CC. You die. You have no idea what was happening the entire fight, what mistakes you made and what strategy to adapt to "get better". Then you die again with the same results. You start complaining, joining the endless masses of co-confused, until a dev sees it and decides to nerf that pesky mirage in the worst way possible.

> >

> > New people might get easily frustrated, while experienced people just avoid fighting mirage because they see no fun in it.

> > Telling them to "get better" is useless. They won't without the right conditions. That's not how people work.

>

> Why do I get the feeling you read my post here.

>

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> > > So it's a dead heat between Mesmer and Ranger as of this post, with 46 votes each. Yet there are only three posts by Mesmer voters with little to no explanation. For example:

> > >

> > > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said:

> > > > I haven’t played serious PvP since HoT, but i always vote Mesmer in polls because reasons.

> > >

> > > I suspect a lot of people voted Mesmer based on old prejudices or L2P issues (Mesmer is a proficient noob stomper), and/or were unaware of it being hit significantly by just about every balance patch of 2018, including this latest drastic one.

> > >

> > > Apparently the sPvP leaderboards have been dominated by Boon Beasts and Holos, with Mesmers rare or absent from the highest brackets (again suggesting the L2P factor).

> > >

> > > I think people need to update their view on Mesmer.

> >

> > I've said it before and I'll say it again:

> >

> > People complain about Mirage for the same reason they complained about condi chrono back in HoT, for the same reason they complain about core mesmer back on release all the way through core. People hate what they die to. They will never not complain about what they die to > They die to what they don't understand more than they do what they actively do understand > Mesmer and mirage give the lowest feedback towards victims of what was responsible for killing them. That's it. It's literally as simple as that. All mesmer builds could be elementalist tier it would still garner more hate and cries for nerfing than the actual top tier builds in the game.

> >

> > It's also why any PvP game character built around weird or unusual tells and animations or deception like Faust, Zappa, Arakune, Voldo, Leblanc, Shaco, TF2 Spies, any Pokemon that can run special and physical variants on a meta level, all have huuuuuuge levels of hate dedicated for them even beyond loadouts that are beyond them in any given meta. Mesmer has and has always been the most complained about class, in eras when it's the worst class in the game, in eras when it's competitive but not over performing, and in eras when it grossly over performs.

> >

> > People talk about mirage like it's some unstoppable thing with literally permanent evade frames and stealth, and unlimited burst damage but it's really not. There are rules and fairly hard set limits for how much of anything it can run and exactly how it can do lethal damage to you. But combine people's disdain for anything condition damage related with Mirage/Mesmer giving players low levels of feedback about what actually is killing them and it's a recipe for a hate sink, even when we were getting 4X holosmith queues because they were so over performing just last week and when Boonbeast is so obviously over powered.

> >

> > People learn real quick to avoid Holographic Shockwave. They learn real quick to avoid Prime Light Beam. The learn real quick to avoid Dagger Storm. They learn real quick to avoid Whirling Defense. They learn real quick to avoid the coreguard mighty blow combo.

> >

> > But Mesmer and Mirage's attack style is so abstract compared to anything else in the game and to an untrained less experienced player they don't know what they really get hit with and how to avoid it so easily. The 600 range blow out skill might actually be more oppressive powerful and useful in high end tiers of play, but the less skilled player is going to walk away getting hit by that knowing much better what to avoid being hit with. I've barely played Holosmith, but I knew real well what they can do, what their traits do, and what to look out for just from watching them over the past year and few months. With Mirage if you aren't actually playing it and getting a grip on it's capabilities it is kind of hard to know what it's doing.

> >

> > The one nerf I want to see on Mirage at this point is the removal of stunbreak on elusive mind and the removal of the ability to mirage cloak on CC skills that otherwise inhibit dodging.

>

>

I did not, it's just that we happen to be talking about the same thing.

> @"Jay.4012" said:

> Why remove stunbreaks on EM at this point with the exhaustion on stunbreaks no one but people who are either highly skilled and do not waste a single dodge or people who don't know how bad that exhaustion can hurt you are using it. Removing the stunbreaks before the exhaustion was introduced would've been a better deal. But the excuse is new people can't figure it out give me a break. They need to roll one learn it then they will learn when and how to deal with them.

Because it would make it distinct from the other trait choices and viable again. It's all stated in the first post.

> @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> > @"HisRoyalDudeness.8637" said:

> > > @"SteepledHat.1345" said:

> > > > @"phokus.8934" said:

> > > > There’s no problem with IH or clones using ambush skills.

> > > >

> > > > Mirage Cloak I think everyone can agree with that you shouldn’t be able to dodge while cc’d without Elusive Mind.

> > >

> > > I don't. Every spec of mirage is at it's weakest already. It doesn't need anymore hits. Quite honestly, the community just needs to get better.

> >

> > The changes I suggest are not meant to be "a hit" to mirage. And I'd rather like to see mirage reaching a state where it's easier to balance (eliminating the confusing clutter and unrewarding counterplay, making it more skill based and less "let's nerf it, because confused people started complaining" based) and not getting unnecessary and half-baked nerfs every patch.

> > The "community just needs to get better" argument is something I expected to see here and it's precisely why I mentioned the "difficult games can be rewarding and fun to play when handled correctly". Any "L2P" issue can be resolved by learning. The current state of mirage however, does not allow people (especially beginners) to have enough motivation to persist learning. It's basic game design, tailored to how people and their motivations work in these situations.

> > You get feared, a scourge pops up near you, you die - you learn to avoid getting hit by fear and to stay away from scourges, killing them from range instead. Since you are able to apply the strategy and to see improvements in fights against scourges, you are able to persist with learning and get better, while having fun doing so.

> > Then a mirage pops up near you, flooding your entire screen with copies and particles, stealth, target breaking, teleports, invulnerabilities and dodging in hard CC. You die. You have no idea what was happening the entire fight, what mistakes you made and what strategy to adapt to "get better". Then you die again with the same results. You start complaining, joining the endless masses of co-confused, until a dev sees it and decides to nerf that pesky mirage in the worst way possible.

> >

> > New people might get easily frustrated, while experienced people just avoid fighting mirage because they see no fun in it.

> > Telling them to "get better" is useless. They won't without the right conditions. That's not how people work.

>

> I got better idea mirage cloak is to rewarding i am serius remove invurn and infinite horizon change mirage to not have clones but mirrors instead and tone down ambush make disortion turn to lesser mirage cloak . Make mirage sacrifise survival of dodges and evades along with aegis for some extra damage. Along with while using mirage cloak you cant be healed. What you think?

I think the definition of "constructive feedback" was ripped out from your dictionary and replaced with "trolling" instead.

> @"SteepledHat.1345" said:

> > @"phokus.8934" said:

> > There’s no problem with IH or clones using ambush skills.

> >

> > Mirage Cloak I think everyone can agree with that you shouldn’t be able to dodge while cc’d without Elusive Mind.

>

> I don't. Every spec of mirage is at it's weakest already. It doesn't need anymore hits. Quite honestly, the community just needs to get better.

The changes I suggest are not meant to be "a hit" to mirage. And I'd rather like to see mirage reaching a state where it's easier to balance (eliminating the confusing clutter and unrewarding counterplay, making it more skill based and less "let's nerf it, because confused people started complaining" based) and not getting unnecessary and half-baked nerfs every patch.

The "community just needs to get better" argument is something I expected to see here and it's precisely why I mentioned the "difficult games can be rewarding and fun to play when handled correctly". Any "L2P" issue can be resolved by learning. The current state of mirage however, does not allow people (especially beginners) to have enough motivation to persist learning. It's basic game design, tailored to how people and their motivations work in these situations.

You get feared, a scourge pops up near you, you die - you learn to avoid getting hit by fear and to stay away from scourges, killing them from range instead. Since you are able to apply the strategy and to see improvements in fights against scourges, you are able to persist with learning and get better, while having fun doing so.

Then a mirage pops up near you, flooding your entire screen with copies and particles, stealth, target breaking, teleports, invulnerabilities and dodging in hard CC. You die. You have no idea what was happening the entire fight, what mistakes you made and what strategy to adapt to "get better". Then you die again with the same results. You start complaining, joining the endless masses of co-confused, until a dev sees it and decides to nerf that pesky mirage in the worst way possible.

New people might get easily frustrated, while experienced people just avoid fighting mirage because they see no fun in it.

Telling them to "get better" is useless. They won't without the right conditions. That's not how people work.

> @"phokus.8934" said:

> There’s no problem with IH or clones using ambush skills.

>

> Mirage Cloak I think everyone can agree with that you shouldn’t be able to dodge while cc’d without Elusive Mind.

The "take ambush skills from clones" on Infinite Horizon is merely an option I came up with as a way to solve the "visual clutter" and "new players getting lost and unable to learn from mistakes" issues listed above.

Do you see problems with my listed "visual clutter" and "new players getting lost and unable to learn from mistakes" issues (meaning them not being relevant and should be taken off the list), or just with the Infinite Horizon change I've suggested to deal with these issues?

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > Infinite Horizon (offensive clone playstyle)

> > When you gain Mirage Cloak, your illusions also gain it. Your Ambush skills are empowered by the number of illusions you curently have.

> >

> > Illusions no longer use Ambush skill during their Mirage Cloak, they only get invulnerability and stop attacking for it's duration instead.

> > The ambush skill used is empowered by the current amount of your illusions (basically Malice system after the deadeye rework, only with clones instead of malice stacks).

> > This allows for drastically reducing the amount of visual clutter and having more control over the damage component of this trait, while simultaneously maintaining the current amount of damage. It also makes it less chaotic for the opponent, allowing him to read the situation and react accordingly while allowing the mirage to deal damage with the trait only when he's not doing anything else at the moment (covering heal/another offensive skill cast with Mirage Cloak or dodging in hard CC while the clones apply damage through their ambush skill). Furthermore, it makes for easier balancing and some more creative options for the developers, since the way and rate the an ambush skill gets empowered can be changed for each weapon separately and regardless of it's non-empowered nature (making an Infinite Horizon traited mirage deal more/less damage by affecting the empowered damage without touching the base damage of an ambush skill, making the final 3rd clone empower more significant than the previous 2 (making it more profitable for the mirage to maintain 3 clones up while also adding a counterplay strategy for the opponent by trying to limit the amount of clones), adding an effect (like teleporting the illusions to the target after successfuly landing a 3 clone sword ambush) and distinct animation/particle according to the empower level (allowing both for distinct and rewarding feeling from playing the spec and counterplay by allowing the opponent to see an empowered ambush is coming his way),.. the possibilities are endless)

> >

> > Trait is worth taking when utilizing a playstyle focused on maximizing offense by maintaining a high amount of clones or by spawning them rapidly after each use. Offers the maximum offense with 3 clones up and allows for better control of illusions (invulnerability and no attacking during the Mirage Cloak).

>

> This kitten guts DPS Mirage in PvE. Like completely deletes the spec from PvE.

>

> If you're going to hit Mirage Damage in PvP, these are the nerfs you want to do:

>

> 1. Clones Spawned by Deceptive Evasion no longer spawn Automatically doing their Ambush attack with Infinite Horizon.

>

> It's a fun trait synergy, but I think it's too much with Infinite Horizon. Infinite Horizon rewards spawning and maintaining three clones at once, and with all the AoE and cleave spilling around is actually somewhat difficult. But the investment in having and maintaining clones is undercut when a dodge roll doesn't just spawn a clone, but also automatically gives you the damage is putting too much into the value of one dodge even for Mirage. Deceptive Evasion is fine, but they shouldn't ambush until the Mirage Cloak after they spawn.

>

>

> 2. Cry of Pain.

>

> I think a lot of people really missed how much this trait impacted Mesmer in PvP. Just a refresher, it used to be Illusionary Retribution, which had all shatter skills apply confusion on shatter. The end result is that a 3 Clone Mind Wrack or Distraction would both apply 4 stacks of confusion, and a three clone Cry of Frustration would apply 8 stacks of confusion. However, during the Phantasm rework last February they switched it so that it now gives Cry of Frustration 2 additional stacks of confusion, front loading ALL of the Mesmer's potential Confusion output into just one shatter. Now Cry of Frustration on it's own if it lands is 12 stacks of confusion just right there and that doesn't even count Blinding Disipation+Ineptitude. This made Illusions condi mirage FAR burstier than it had been previously.

>

> While Illusions has fallen out of the meta in favor of Chaos, I do think this trait might be better off being reverted back to 1 additional confusion stack per shatter, giving mesmer more value for all their shatters long term rather than just Cry of Frustration.

Explain how it would gut PvE DPS.

If the 3 clone empowered ambush did the same damage as an ambush + 3 clone ambushes through Infinite Horizon does now, how would the dps be gutted?

Nerfing the mirage damage was not my intention, as stated in the list of issues and what my suggestions aim to accomplish section.

The suggested change to Infinite Horizon aims for:

* reducing visual clutter

* making it easier to anticipate and deal with in PvP

* Maintaining the current damage and clone control

* Giving developers a way to balance and play with the skills without affecting the base ambush skill itself

> @"SteepledHat.1345" said:

> TL:DR - Everything that makes mirage mirage must be deleted.

Please, elaborate.

There are currently several issues with the mirage elite specialisation that make it hard to balance out and frustrating to face in a PvP scenario. As a result, we are getting some questionable changes (making Elusive Mind a harmful trait, nerfing core traits and skills, hurting core mesmer and chronomancer in an attempt to nerf mirage) and people avoiding a fight and complaining about mirages, making them give up trying rather than persisting through the (rather unrewarding) fighting experience and learning from it. the way I see it, the main culprit is the way Mirage Cloak works at the moment.

_____

Perceived issues with the design:

* Dodge during hard CC is too forgiving, allowing for careless playstyle while still being effective. From opponent's perspective, landing a hard CC on mirage is not rewarding, making the fight frustrating and confusing.

* When combined with Infinite Horizon major grandmaster trait and good supply of clone spawning abilities, the fight gets flooded with too much visual clutter (clones, their attacks, animations, particles from ambush skills).

* Mirage Cloak gives a player too many options at once. It allows him to safecast an ability, dodge incoming attacks, avoid damage when hard CCed, deal damage directly through ambush skills and (when combined with Infinite Horizon) deal damage through clone ambush skills. This allows for utilizing the dodge both defensively and offensively at the same time (without the need to choose from one option or other at the given situation) and more effectively than any other dodge in the game.

* There's a reason some challenging games are enjoyable - when you make a mistake and you die, the game gives you enough information on what mistake you made and what should be done in order to avoid it. In this way, you learn from the mistake, you try again, and even if you die in the same way again, you have a motivation to keep trying, learning and seeing the fruits of your progress. When handled correctly, difficult gameplay and constant dying it rewarding, not frustrating.

The forgiving gameplay, unrewarding counterplay, visual clutter and many options during invulnerability make the fight difficult to read for an opponent. The mesmer is a trickster profession and as such should have an access to tools meant to confuse his opponents, with the current design however, the mirage achieves confusion not through clever use of his tools, but through visual clutter and confusing mechanics. Especially in case of new players, when they fight a mirage, they get lost in the fight and when they die, they have no clue what their mistake was and how to learn from it. The fight gets chaotic, confusing, unrewarding and ultimately frustrating.

* When combined with core skills and mechanics, Mirage Cloak in it's current state allows for previously high risk/high reward strategies to be easy and safe to execute, making them low risk/high reward. From balance standpoint, nerfing the strategy without adressing the mirage mechanic itself changes it to low risk/medium reward for mirage and high risk/medium reward for mesmer and chronomancer, hurting these specialisations more than the mirage itself. Even if nerfed to the ground, without any high reward options for the mesmer, the mirage gameplay would still suffer from the problems listed above, rendering this balancing strategy ineffective.

* There is no real personality and choice based on gameplay in the Major Grandmaster traits. Elusive Mind was overperforming and nerfed to a state that I myself consider harmful. Dune Cloak is fine, but generally not worth taking over Infinite Horizon. Infinite Horizon is generally worth taking over the other options regardless of the playstyle the player chose to pursue. The "good for too many options" issue listed above is present even without taking any of these traits.

* The usual "don't get hit" strategy for dealing with condition dealing skills is difficult to execute against mirage, since Infinite Horizon allows the conditions to be applied frequently, in both offensive and defensive situations and from numerous directions and sources while causing visual clutter, making it hard to anticipate and avoid.

* In it's current state, Infinite Horizon's power is dependant on the nature of equipped weapon's ambush skill, rendering it either strong or weak without the option to balance it out without changing the nature of any weapon's ambush skill.

_____

The suggested Mirage Cloak and Major Grandmaster traits rework aims to fix the issues listed above. It aims to make the mirage gameplay less forgiving and more about careful timing, reduce the amount of visual clutter, introduce more personified choices dependant on the playstyle/trait/situation the mirage player finds himself in, while also making it easier for an opponent to read the situation and differentiate between different playstyles/traits/courses of actions in given situations, allowing him to learn from his mistakes and enjoy the game, and also to make the mirage profession playstyle more personified according to chosen Major Grandmaster trait, allowing for easier balancing without affecting the mesmer profession (or other trait choices) as a whole.

_____

Suggested Changes:

**Mirage Cloak**

_Gain Mirage Cloak instead of dodge rolling. Ambush skills become available for a short time whenever you gain Mirage Cloak. Gain access to Deception skills._

* Allows for casting during invulnerability uptime and dodging while immobilized

* No longer usable during hard control.

_____

**Infinite Horizon (offensive clone playstyle)**

_When you gain Mirage Cloak, your illusions also gain it. Your Ambush skills are empowered by the number of illusions you curently have._

* Illusions no longer use Ambush skill during their Mirage Cloak, they only get invulnerability and stop attacking for it's duration instead.

* The ambush skill used is empowered by the current amount of your illusions (basically Malice system after the deadeye rework, only with clones instead of malice stacks).

This allows for drastically reducing the amount of visual clutter and having more control over the damage component of this trait, while simultaneously maintaining the current amount of damage. It also makes it less chaotic for the opponent, allowing him to read the situation and react accordingly while allowing the mirage to deal damage with the trait only when he's not doing anything else at the moment (covering heal/another offensive skill cast with Mirage Cloak or dodging in hard CC while the clones apply damage through their ambush skill). Furthermore, it makes for easier balancing and some more creative options for the developers, since the way and rate the an ambush skill gets empowered can be changed for each weapon separately and regardless of it's non-empowered nature (making an Infinite Horizon traited mirage deal more/less damage by affecting the empowered damage without touching the base damage of an ambush skill, making the final 3rd clone empower more significant than the previous 2 (making it more profitable for the mirage to maintain 3 clones up while also adding a counterplay strategy for the opponent by trying to limit the amount of clones), adding an effect (like teleporting the illusions to the target after successfuly landing a 3 clone sword ambush) and distinct animation/particle according to the empower level (allowing both for distinct and rewarding feeling from playing the spec and counterplay by allowing the opponent to see an empowered ambush is coming his way),.. the possibilities are endless)

* Trait is worth taking when utilizing a playstyle focused on maximizing offense by maintaining a high amount of clones or by spawning them rapidly after each use. Offers the maximum offense with 3 clones up and allows for better control of illusions (invulnerability and no attacking during the Mirage Cloak).

_____

**Elusive Mind (defensive choice)**

_Allows dodging during stun and removes conditions_

* No longer gives an ability to break stun with dodge, no longer gives Exhaustion.

* Player can dodge during hard CC, as was the case before the rework. Clears 1 condition.

* Trait is worth taking when playing defensively and/or lacking in condi clear options. Allows for more forgiving gameplay, while not giving any offensive capabilities.

_____

**Dune Cloak (offensive trickster playstyle)**

_Use Sand Shards when you gain Mirage Cloak. Conditions applied to bleeding foes have increased duration. Reduces the cooldown of Deception skills._

* The power and condition damage of Sand Shards is increased, allowing the trait to be damage-wise preferred over Infinite Horizon when fighting groups of weaker enemies, where maintaining 3 clones is impractical.

* Sand Shards is used 1/2 into Mirage Cloak rather than from the start. Has a distinct "charging-up" animation, making the opponent know something is coming, effectively baiting a dodge while also making him know what trait he is facing.

* Reduced cooldown allows for more frequent use of Deception skills.

* Trait worth taking when utilizing a playstyle focused on mobility, rotating clones through shatters and confusing foes with target breaking, juking, teleporting and hit and run strategy. Also for clearing trash mobs in-between bosses in PvE.

_____

Feel free to give me any feedback.. Whether it's positive, negative or somewhere in between (like: "good concept but half-baked, here's why:").

Cheers

What if:

**Decoy**

Gain stealth and summon an illusion to attack your foe.

_Enemies targeting you instantly retarget the illusion instead._

> @"Anela.3867" said:

> > @"HisRoyalDudeness.8637" said:

> > Playing a Frash Air Weaver sure is a lot of fun nowadays.

> >

>

> That looks like fun. What build do you use?

Basically a standard power shatter mirage, only switched for scepter and Mantra of Pain for the fun and giggles.

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Mirage_-_Shatter_Mirage

Quickness through Duelling (on phantasm cast) or Chronomancer (on shatter) might be a nice addition (using Arcane Thievery might be a nasty tell-off on opening from stealth).. Dunno if losing the stun+vulnerability from Domination or the overall utility of the Mirage would be worth it though.

Playing a Frash Air Weaver sure is a lot of fun nowadays.

> @"reddie.5861" said:

> > @"HisRoyalDudeness.8637" said:

> > I think I'll just put this right here - my best backstab (was on the receiving end, but oh well..).

> > [

>

> dunno what the kitten you run but jesus 20k hits from everything xD i have full zerk mesmer but people arent unloading this dmg on me

As a Trve mesmer©, I run cloaked not in real clothes but in a mere illusion of clothes.. Basically, I am naked, so there is nothing at all to protect me from those sneaky sneaky thieves.