Doctor.1384

> @"narcx.3570" said:

> > @"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:

> > I want to be a good rev, but atm i'm a beginner rev. Lotsa work ahead.

> > That being said even i can see that this is messed up as the general rule of thumb is - weapon skills cheap as dirt but on regular cooldowns, utilities expensive, but very small cooldowns.

> >

> > The very idea of legends (and energy system) is that as long as you can afford it you can use your legend skills frequently. To have any legend skill on a 15s cooldown is crippling the legend and saying "sorry this guy has only two utilities!".

> >

> > If you want to give it low energy cost but high cooldown then you should make it a weapon skill. If it's to stay as legend skill, you should find a different way of balancing it, though tbh i have no idea why would you. Single target, blockable, destroyable by projectile hate skills, and a taunt (one of least potent cc types out there).

> >

> > I don't hear anyone kitten about Shiro's Jade Winds, so why the sudden "concern" about forced engagement?

>

> Because Jade Winds costs 50 energy, which is effectively giving it a 10 second cooldown anyways... And not just a 10 second cooldown, but a 10 second MEGA cooldown where you can only be auto attacking if you want to use it again.

>

> If Forced Engagement didn't have a cooldown, you could keep somebody taunted literally forever--it costs 10 energy and is a 2 second (with zero expertise) cc and you generate 5 energy per second. While being able to swap to Jalis and keep somebody taunted forever while you have 50 energy and auto attacks to kill them with might actually make Jalis worth playing, it'd clearly be beyond broken. They might as well just make Vengeful Hammers apply a taunting aura at that point.

>

> If you think in terms of 10 second legends (which you should be doing), the change to forced engagement is clearly a buff... You still get to use it once per Jalis rotation, but now you have an extra 5 energy (1 second) to use on securing a kill.

Well first Not everyone swaps legends after 10 seconds. No one is saying that fe should have a 10 ec and no cd, the point im trying to make is that legend skills should be balanced around having a low cd and then at the same time largely decreasing or removing the cd, rather than having cd removed and then seeing what happens.

I would want any armor skins I can get that are in the form of individual pieces rather than these tacky outfits.

Forced Engagement: Reduced the energy cost from 25 to 10. Increased the cooldown from 10 seconds to 15 seconds in PvP and WvW

Alright so this is the chanage planned for fe in the upcoming wvw/pvp splits. The first iteration of this proposition had an even longer cooldown and that seems to have been shot down, but we still need for their not to be an increased cooldown on this skill to compensate for the reduction in the energy cost.

This seems like a small change but this sets the precident that increasing cooldowns and decreasing energy costs is an acceptable way to balance rev. This cannot be allowed.

If a revenant util or elite cannot have an extremely low (< 3 seconds) cooldown than the skill itself needs to be reexamined rather than have its casting cost and cd (which should not exist) manipulated.

If we continue to have cooldowns increased than eventually rev skills will be like regular ele weapon skills except they would have a resource attached to them that when depleted prevents you from using revs weapon skills, and this is a bad design.

About the forced engagement change

We still need to not have more cooldowns for rev. It seems like a small change but if we keep getting small cd increases eventually we will lose our class mechanic and just have a resource attached to generic skills. Forced engagement would be perfectly fine on a 10 second cooldown with a 10 energy cost or even a 15 energy cost. If a rev skill cant have a low cd than the skill needs to be reexamined rather then have its cost and cd manipulated.

> @"videoboy.4162" said:

> > @"Doctor.1384" said:

> > I dont see why we cant have unique skins and effects for legendary wvw/pvp armor and trinkets

>

> I got the impression that they think all Legendary Armor needs to be animated like the Envoy Armor. I think most people would be happy just having cool skins without animation.

They wouldnt even need to be much of an upgrade from the current fancy wvw/pvp armours, theyd just need to make them distinguished from those armours enough so that players recognize that they are wearing the legendary set

I dont see why we cant have unique skins and effects for legendary wvw/pvp armor and trinkets

For asura the 2nd attack in the chain is the worst since it is completely disconnected from the first and third attacks

not enough events. Also disconnected from other maps, there should at least be a boat or something setup in amnoon that will ferry you from there to the new maps and old maps.

> @"Exalted Quality.8534" said:

> > @"Doctor.1384" said:

> > Rev is NOT a support class. Power rev is definately not a support build, It is best described as a cross between a warrior and a thief. It also has a very high skill cap which is why so many people say its bad. You can fight mirages and scourges but you must use your dodges and blocks effectively. To be effective in skirmishes you want to preassure their squishier classes and finnish downs.

>

> If Rev is not a support class, how do you explain BOTH herald and renegade being extremely weak specs for solo, but stronger in groups? How do you explain Revs being the 1st or 2nd best class at providing alacrity, but not being able to benefit from it in a significant way (utilities are not supposed to have cooldowns and you can never use all of your weapon skills because of the bad energy system).

>

> That said, most of the advice people gave above is accurate. Pick your fights and use your dodges wisely. If you have a support class to keep you alive, you can be somewhat effective at mid point. If you’re getting focused at mid (and you don’t have a dd, mirage, sb, or druid already filling the decapping role) play sides.

>

> After gimping power revs into nonexistence, A-net gifted us with the worst espec ever in the game in Renegade. Not only is it simply just terrible in everything outside of PvE, but it doesn’t bring any unique play style to the profession as especs are supposed to do.

>

> I’m less confident than others that the upcoming patch will put revs in a better spot. History always repeats itself...

Herald is perfectly fine solo, you can look on youtube for proof of that, however renegade is utter trash because the spec has no idea what it is supposed to be doing.

Rev is NOT a support class. Power rev is definately not a support build, It is best described as a cross between a warrior and a thief. It also has a very high skill cap which is why so many people say its bad. You can fight mirages and scourges but you must use your dodges and blocks effectively. To be effective in skirmishes you want to preassure their squishier classes and finnish downs.

If the design goal of the PoF maps was to be more in line with central tyria maps then there needs to be 3 or 4 times the amount of events and many of these should be event chains. Compare the amount of events in any central Tyria map with the amount of events in the PoF maps. Events shouldnt be substituted with bountys. The problem with bountys is that since they are initiated by players they make the world less dense and alive. Also world bosses, not on every map but there should be about 1 good one for every 3 or 4 new maps. Things like Amalla dont count as world bosses either, world bosses are things like tequatl. I dont have to search for events in a central tyria map, but this problem exists in PoF maps. Id rather have a map feel too busy than not busy enough. We also need more connections between old and new maps, I want to be able to walk from bloodstone fen all the way to istan. Also istan is not nearly as dense as it needs to be, and is not a good model for future lw4 maps. Having a dedicated area where a big meta happens only worked in HoT because HoT populated those areas with other events (namely auric basin and td, ds is good but ds type maps should only be made on occasion if the concept is really solid)

> @"Justine.6351" said:

> In small scale its mainly only good for pug stomping.

> In 1v1 scenarios its good if you out skill and also is acceptable vs a few select builds otherwise but tbh replacing hammer with s/s would be better in these occasions anyhow (I run it hammer/staff).

>

> Hammers main novelty is the ability to safe play on power rev from range and to bait players into thinking you are a free kill. This ironically makes hammer kind of good, in a twisted way.

I think playing from range and baiting players into charging into you is what you do anyways on power rev (s/x staff). 4/5 s/s/axe skills can already be used at 450 range or more

> @"Justine.6351" said:

> I use both jade winds and phase traversal on my hammer rev.

>

> If you are always at 1200 range you are only being half as effective as you could be. There are other skills beyond CoR.

5 and 1 are 1200 range, even if it should remain a solely ranged weapon I dont see why 3 shouldnt be reworked as I previously mentioned.

> @"Kaiser.9873" said:

> > @"Doctor.1384" said:

> > This weapon has no synergy with any of the rev legends since all of the legends are designed for melee. The only legend where it sort of works is shiro because of the back step, but even here you have no need for phase traversal and will rarely be in range for jade winds.

> > What I propose is for hammer 1 to be a melee attack chain, and for hammer 3 to be a leap which chains into a skill that lets you return to your original position. 2 is fine, 5 is fine. I think this would combo well because you can use 5->2->3 and then maybe vengeful hammers or something.

> > For the auto attack chain we could have 2 slow attacks and then on the third hit you slam your hammer into the ground and attack in a 2 or 300 aoe around you.

>

> So then all of our weapons except terrible shortbow can be melee? No ty.

Alright, I understand needing a core ranged weapon, but I still think it should have some sort of melee functionality so it can work better with the melee oriented design of the class.

This weapon has no synergy with any of the rev legends since all of the legends are designed for melee. The only legend where it sort of works is shiro because of the back step, but even here you have no need for phase traversal and will rarely be in range for jade winds.

What I propose is for hammer 1 to be a melee attack chain, and for hammer 3 to be a leap which chains into a skill that lets you return to your original position. 2 is fine, 5 is fine. I think this would combo well because you can use 5->2->3 and then maybe vengeful hammers or something.

For the auto attack chain we could have 2 slow attacks and then on the third hit you slam your hammer into the ground and attack in a 2 or 300 aoe around you.

The revenant changes are mostly good, they are trying to make frontline dwarf/demon more viable. This is good since revs are a soldier proffession and should exist in frontlines. The changes to forced engangement are bad, rev legends need as few and as low cooldowns as possible. Itd be fine if they just remove the cd and have an energy cost of 25. Mallyx and shiro are good examples of how a legend should play.

Most of these are good changes, however I dont like the changes to forced engagement, legend skills need as few and as low cooldowns as possible if any. Mallyx and shiro are good examples of this. The prior forced engagement was better and would have been balanced if there was no energy cost at all.

These changes are trying to make the dwarf/demon frontline rev build more viable. this is good since as a soldier profession we should be able to hold our own in front lines in wvw.

This is copy and pasted from the post in the pvp forum

PvP/WvW Skill Split

Hi folks! The Competitive team and the Skills & Balance team have been working together closely on a future balance release that focuses almost entirely on PvP and WvW skill splits. As part of this, we wanted to switch things up and approach this release similar to how we approached the PvP sigil changes we did a while back, when we released our first draft of the proposed changes.

With this set of proposed changes, we'd like to get your thoughts and ideas on both our high level goals and how we're going about accomplishing them. You guys may bring up concerns or thoughts we didn't consider. While reviewing these changes, please consider them as a whole rather than focusing on individual classes.

We're looking forward to a productive discussion!

High Level Goals

Reduce influence of passive traits. (PvP not WvW)

Passive skills make the game less skillful.

The prevalence of passives is a common competitive player complaint. (PvP only)

Increase build diversity

By decreasing the power of some of the more dominant builds, we hope to give increased viability to builds that previously were pushed out by these dominant specs. We're also increasing power levels in some targeted areas that previously were underperforming.

Reduce effectiveness of offensive instant cast skills/traits

Instant cast spells don't give players an opportunity to respond. While we don't want to remove combos utilizing instant cast abilities, we wanted to reduce the impact they have.

General

Rune of Surging has been removed from the PvP build panel

Magi Amulet has been removed from the PvP build panel

Revenant

Skills

Coalescence of Ruin: Reduced the power coefficient of the second impact from 1.75 to 1.5 (-14%) in WvW only. Reduced the power coefficient of the third impact from 2.25 to 1.75 (-22%) in WvW only.

Razorclaw's Rage: Increased the Bleeding duration from 2 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP and WvW

Icerazor's Ire: Increased the Power coefficient from 3.7 to 4.6 (+24%) in PvP and WvW

Soothing Stone: Increased the number of conditions cleansed from 3 to 5 in PvP and WvW

Vengeful Hammers: Reduced the upkeep cost from 7 to 6 in PvP and WvW

Forced Engagement: Reduced the energy cost from 25 to 10. Increased the cooldown from 10 seconds to 20 seconds in PvP and WvW

Embrace the Darkness: Increased the attribute bonus from 10% to 15% in PvP and WvW

Banish Enchantments: Increased the number of boons removed from 2 to 3 in PvP and WvW

Pain Absorption: Reduced the energy cost from 35 to 30 in PvP and WvW

Traits

Eye for an Eye: Increased the cooldown from 45 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP only

Versed in Stone: Increased the cooldown from 60 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP only

Soothing Bastion: Increased the cooldown from 25 seconds to 60 seconds in PvP only

F2-4 skills that function as slotable utililitys. These fSkills would be things like evades , leaps and stun breaks that pertain to revs ability to manipulate the mists but do not necessarily relate to a legend. Facet of nature and renegade fSkills would be added to the selection of fSkills you can choose from when the elite spec is slotted in.

If we cant get something like that then we should at least get passive effects while a legend is invoked. I have ideas for these below.

Shiro - you get a third evade bar, or if this is outrageous you get increased endurance regeneration and the current IO additional attack effect and IO gets reverted to give quickness.

Glint - Your energy regenerates 1.2 times faster, or we could have facets give unique effects rather then just boons

mallyx - remove a boon(s?) from nearby enemies when you are afflicted with a condition, icd of 2 or 3

dwarf - incoming damage reduced by 10 percent, gain retaliation when struck, icd of some sort

ventauri - heal yourself for a percentage of outgoing healing, or perhaps remove a condition when you heal a certain amount

kalla - already has kallas fervor, but you probably want to totally redesign the concept of this elite spec.

Also give us equilibrium back and make versed in stone condi reduction standard to rite of the great dwarf.

I got gold in all of these things can I get a title for doing that without having to do them again before they get nerfed?

> @"Canakun.8031" said:

> In my view, there are two main things that contribute to Revenant being impractical in PvP and to a lesser extent WvW.

> First is the energy system. Thief works with their similar system because it's only their weapon skills that use energy. Their utilities are on cooldowns (like revs) but aren't restricted to the use of energy. Making this change for revenant would be the first step, in my opinion.

> Upkeep skills don't need to change (impossible odds, embrace the darkness, etc.) Leave those as upkeep skills because it plays into the class in a good way. But all the other utility skills should be free from any energy cost, as they already have a cooldown.

>

> Second is the legend system. It's far, far too restrictive in PvP. Any semblance of a build right now needs to take Mallyx for the condition management. I tried power herald in PvP for a couple of hours, and the only games I won I was taking glint/mallyx, because the resistance was far too important.

> I don't know how it would be changed, but there needs to be some system put in place where our legend skills can be swapped in and out regardless of what legend we're using. Whether that means we turn our legends into passive effects, or what, I don't know. But currently the legend system is the most restrictive aspect of the class and IMO contributes a lot to why this class is so underpowered.

It makes more sense to have the utility and elite skills have only energy costs and for the weapon skills to only have cooldowns since legends are our proffession mechanic.

> @"Arzurag.7506" said:

> I like it when people have to get out of their comfort-zone.

> Anet should keep the HUD as it is, maybe only with the possiblity to delete and add elements, not changing them.

I do not understand this first statement, are you implying that circles make me uncomfortable? We can already move the chatbox and minimap I dont see why we shouldnt have the option to move the skill ui in a similar way and also be able to have a rectangular health bar.

I would like to have the option to have a health and stamina bar(meaning a square/rectangle) that is depleted from the right to the left. Id also like to be able to move it to the right of the utility skills or to the left of the weapon skills rather than between them. Basically I want to have a more customizable health and skill UI.

I would be fine with them removong jade wins, making io our elite, and giving us some sort of damage avoidance in ios slot.

I think it would be worth it to make a poll to see if the portion of the player base that actually cares about these types of pc changes is a really loud minority, but at the same time I dont want to set the forums on fire.