Dace.8173

> @"Catchyfx.5768" said:

> > @"Dace.8173" said:

>

> -To be fair. All weapons are made like this. some have block , some gap closer,.. You always find similarities in all weapon sets.

> -Hybrid GS is(was) Reapers GS. You can actually still play it as condi.

> -I can't say that Precision Strike is something good for cleave. Because you can hit 1 target with all 3 attacks if you get near the hitbox.SW3 you cannat really control. So no cleave from this one but with other spells I will agree with you. Guy maybe means that Guard can deal massive AoE. yea we can autoattack ˘˘

>

> Im kinda OK with every weapon. If it will be usefull. I believe if devs decide to go for GS it will be visualy awesome and it gets some nice skills. All Rev weapons are really different from other classes weapons so im not worry about it.

>

>

Not all weapons. Some have worse overlap than others. Weapons like Scepter, staff, rifle, and pistol have a lot more variety. Even sword tends to have a bit more variety than what we see from greatsword. ANet clearly puts more thought into some weapon types than they do others. I expect some overalp between weapons. Just when it comes to greatsword ANet has too much overlap in how they go about it. Considering how imaginative they get with some weapons, such as your mention of Revenant weapons, its a shame that ANet takes a weapon like greatsword and just copy and pastes so much. I'm not arguing that other weapons don't overlap, just that greatsword overlaps more than most.

Precision Strike would count because the skill says it can cleave. Lack of actual control doesn't change that it can do it. That's more an argument for whether or not it's a good cleave skill. I was arguing that we had cleave weapons already, not really evaluating the individual skills. But to be fair, how much control do you really have with most cleave attacks? It's not like you are choosing the specific targets to cleave. Typically its just the three people that are in the weapons arc. This really comes down to whether or not you enjoy the way in which Precision Strike chooses targets opting to dart about as opposed to hitting the three closest people.

> @"Lonewolf Kai.3682" said:

>

> Wow, you’re really passionate about making sure Gs doesn’t get to Rev.

Meh, not really. This is just something that passes the time when I'm bored. It's not like I would stop playing the game if they gave Revenant a greatsword.

> Anyways, it sounds like you’re arguing with yourself about functionality. If you’re unwilling to see the differences in class functionality that are observable, that’s on you and the argument is just opinion.

Well no. You're not really using opinion correct in these instances. The statements about the moves I made are observable facts, not opinions. Unless you want to argue that it is only an opinion that an attack that clearly spins should be called a spin attack the specific arguments I made are fact-based. Whether or not it matters to you would be an opinion (though whether or not something is an opinion is immaterial. The statement that something is an opinion is not an actual argument or a point. It's like saying the sky is blue). Also, class functionality is still an argument about functionality.

> On cleaving, you’re arguing semantics, so I’ll clarify my point a bit. Revenant needs a proper, dps cleaving weapon that has a wide area of attack. One could argue that there is staff, but that’s a support weapon with not so great dps.

This too is a semantic argument.

> On hybrid skills, well you got me on that one. I should have explained my point a bit more but was trying to avoid a wall of text, and I say that while glaring at your post. A hybrid power/condi weapon is missing from the Rev arsenal.

>

> Thus the above is why IMO, Gs makes sense as the next weapon.

The two do not follow. The act of needing a hybrid power/condi weapon does not follow that the greatsword makes the most sense for that weapon. Any weapon can be a hybrid weapon and because of that reason there no logical link between that need and that need being filled by another weapon. The logical weapon would really come down to the nature of the Elite spec in question.

> Also, please don’t stereotype me with “folks” that are amusing you with the Mes throw back. I said nothing of the sort in my post to you. If you’re going to go down that road, I find it equally amusing how you and another poster on this thread feel the need to regurgitate your anti-Gs rhetoric on every thread that asks for Gs.

That doesn't bother me one bit. Feel free to do so. 100% ok with what you find amusing. I wasn't talking about you (so being placed in that category is all on you) but if you feel the need to place me into a category of people then, by all means, have at it. It's not like I'm oblivious to this or such a statement would change anything I've said or will say. The same group of people tend to push having a greatsword. Is that something that we should care about too?

> @"narcx.3570" said:

> > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > @"Ryou.2398" said:

> > > Your facts, whatever you say buddy have a good life though.

> >

> > Well, Youtube facts. There is no such thing as "your facts" and "my facts." There are only facts. I find it silly that people engage in the whole "your facts" when if you go to Youtube and actually do a search on Herald builds you'd see that most of what is on Youtube is out of meta. Why pretend otherwise?

> >

> >

>

> How could anything Herald related be out of meta...? The meta Herald build hasn't really changed for 2 years, lol.

>

> Just for fun, I went and youtube searched "gw2 Herald pvp" and there's about 8 or so videos posted after the Herald rework, and they're basically exactly the same as all the ones before the herald rework.

>

> This is because--as everyone keeps saying on this thread--there is only one real, viable Rev pvp spec. It's not because top players are squirreling away their builds... It's because if you're not using Shiro/Glint, you're being a straight-up liability to your team.

We get posts from folks who talk about non Shiro/Glint builds that they get into platinum with, despite the fact that you only see one build posted. Players do create their own builds and don't bother to share them unless specifically asked. Are we going to deny that those threads exist and all those folks were really just playing Herald (Shiro/Glint)? [Here's one from an EU player](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/68254/renegade-build-for-pvp-last-season-legend#latest "Here's one from an EU player"). Sure it's the EU and so that specific build only helps EU players but that doesn't change the fact that this guy made a build that he did very well with and just sat on it for a while before bothering to do anything with it.

I'm not making an argument that a lot of such builds exist. Just that they do and they aren't being shared with any form of regularity. Unless you're going to deny that threads like the one I just linked don't exist there is no way around the fact that while Shiro/Glint is the only posted build for most people to rely on there are folks out there who make their own build and get very far with it but don't really share that information.

> @"Ruufio.1496" said:

>Which then beg the question... why even play such a build when you can build full glass on warrior, soulbeast, mesmer, thief, guardian, etc. and have none of these issues?

>

Because Engineer is fun? Just because someone can do something easier or do something with fewer issues doesn't suddenly mean that Engineer isn't playable. Part of playing Engineer is in the challenge it presents. The inherent appeal of Engineer more relies on the playstyle it generates and the challenge it presents. People who don't want to deal with those issues do in fact pick up Warrior or Mesmer etc etc. Engineer was never going to appeal to those types. People who stick it out with Engineer are doing so because they enjoy what the profession is, not what it is not.

If we wanted easy we wouldn't be playing it.

Also @"Shadowcat.2680" is likely right, I don't see ANet placing a stunbreak on a healing skill.

> @"Skotlex.7580" said:

> > @"coro.3176" said:

> > I don't think there's anything wrong with the skill itself. It is a bit "boring", but it's a toolbelt skill. It's not really any more boring than surprise shot, for example.

>

> I guess that's true, many toolbelt skills are hardly anything to feel good about, though a few of them are pretty good.

>

> that's.... sort of disappointing actually, considering that the toolbelt is the profession mechanic of engineers.

>

> Hmm, may as well just delete the toolbelt and let engineers use kits on their F slots. :/ (since kits are probably 500% more impactful in builds than the toolbelt abilities).

Toolbelt skills are fine. "Boring" isn't as important as function and so long as they work I don't care if they excite me or not. Many of the toolbelt skills can be useful and as such, I have no problem with them. Replacing them kits is just a bad idea that would make kits even worse than they are now. Instead of having to give up a utility slot they would all be an always-on thing and that would just nerf them further than they already are. Part of what keeps many kits from being as strong as they could be is the fact that you can carry more weapons than pretty much anyone else. If you could carry ALL of them and then have more Utility skills on top of that they would suffer further. If they were to work them into an F slot it should only be one so that Kits would formally be weapon swap and that would give them the freedom to be stronger.

Not everything needs to WOW. It just needs to work. I would push ANet more towards the useful function of them as opposed to something as subjective as boring.

> @"EnderzShadow.2506" said:

> > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > @"EnderzShadow.2506" said:

> > > Yeah, I'm way too tired to read that amazing wall of text.

> > > Get concise.

> > >

> >

> > Ok, your question is intellectually dishonest and this is a stupid thing to make a big deal out of. Anything further and I'll refer you to the post you don't want to read.

> >

> > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > just roll necro and corrupt boon them lol

> >

> > Scourge is such a pain.

>

> Lol , you called me intellectually dishonest twice.

> Only once is shown.. hmm, scratching my head. I wonder why that is.

> There is no telling.

>

> Anyways, telling someone to git gud or L2p without actually explaining what it means to doesn't help anyone.

It was removed by the moderators so I think that's an indication that they want the conversation dropped.

> @"Hoodie.1045" said:

> No amount of buffing will ever make the turrets viable, but that doesn't mean that they can't be improved. The low health, long cooldowns and slow rate of fire is what makes them not viable, even in open world PvE. Usually buildings are immune to critical hits and conditions, but the engineer's turrets are not.

>

> The most ArenaNet can do to improve the turrets, even though it won't make them viable especially in non PvE builds, is to make all of them have a 20 seconds cooldown, 15 seconds when picked up, reduce the long rates of fire and either increase their health or make them immune to critical hits and conditions like other buildings in the game.

+1

I do think that giving overcharge control back to the player would be a huge improvement.

> @"Detergente Ariel.8147" said:

> What if turrets were no longer independent and worked more like weapons emplacements you need to use. With that change you can make turrets stronger with the tradeoff of the user being static and the "experimental turrets" trait become more valuable.

>

> Just look the healing and rifle turrets. They have levers (i lack a better term because english is not my language and traductor is not helping).

mmmmm, no. I'm not about to plop myself down and make myself a sitting duck for all kinds of attacks. The risk vs reward just does not work out in your favor with that.

I don't mind the lack of damage. But the delay created by the animation is problematic as far as I'm concerned. I wish it was a bit faster or it lasted a bit longer as most of the time if I catch someone they are gone shortly after I stop them.

> @"Ryou.2398" said:

> Your facts, whatever you say buddy have a good life though.

Well, Youtube facts. There is no such thing as "your facts" and "my facts." There are only facts. I find it silly that people engage in the whole "your facts" when if you go to Youtube and actually do a search on Herald builds you'd see that most of what is on Youtube is out of meta. Why pretend otherwise?

> @"Blackfish.7349" said:

> Mate, we do not need a description of the rocket boots skill...we know the range, and how it works. I think that you are totally missing the point. This debate is not about damage or range, is about blast combo effect and its area of application. But if you want to talk about damage, you are incorrect: rocket boots do damage as you jump, like jump shot, the difference is that jump shot also does damage at landing spot and rocket boots does not.

>

I describe the skills in order to make my point about the benefits of one set of skills over another set of skills. I've learned that not everyone actually knows all of what a skill does, only part of what a skill does (typically the just the part they want to change). Thus, in order to have a proper conversation, I describe what I see is good or bad about a skill. Damage and range have bearing on this discussion as they play into why a skill works the way it does. You can't answer the question you asked by isolating the skills and looking at them in a vacuum. The lack of a blast field is due, in part, to all the extra stuff that this skill does over Jump Shot. We have a point of comparison from which to judge what ANet considers balanced for having a blast finisher on a skill. Thus, if we are talking about adding a blast finisher we also need to consider what we would be willing to give up in order to have the blast finisher.

> So where are your credentials to talk in the name of Anet? So this poll is not a poll for you because you said so? Mate, this forum has the option to introduce polls and I think Anet appreciates such feature because they have allowed to used it here. The results of the poll are quite conclusive in the sense that most people participating want a change in the rocket boots "field blast mechanics". Do you want a mega poll with all the guild wars community participating to be valid? Engineer is the least popular class in GW2 and the rocket boots blast mechanics are quite complex to understand (even you do not understand) so do not expect a lot of people participating here.

>

No, it's not a real poll with real data points (and I do have the credentials to state that). It's logic dude. Your poll has 35 votes. There are hundreds of players who play Engineer. Your poll doesn't reflect what the entire Engineer community wants. Just 35 people. If ANet actually cared about these polls you'd see a lot more changes there is always a poll that says this or wants that and it doesn't get done. The result are not conclusive in the least (another thing I have the credentials to say). A conclusive poll results would have a larger sample size. The fact that Engineer is the least popular profession has no bearing on this because the Engineer population is much much much larger than 35 people. At present, we know that there are at least 161,533 characters, which gives us a rough idea on the number of players. Your 35 people is a drop in the bucket in regards to that.

Not conclusive, in the least (again, I have the credentials to make a statement like that).

>

> You insist talking about the damage of the skill, and I insist you again that this discussion is not about damage...

Damage is a factor in this. Look at the other skills with blast finishers.

> You again talk in the name of Anet...

Look at the number of the polls on this forums and then look at the number of changes based on those polls. That tells you all you need to know on how ANet feels about user polls. If they paid attention to the polls that show up on this forum the game would be radically different, a chaotic mess. We know this from the various polls on this forum. We know this from the number of polls that show conflicting player desires.

Read the polls. Look at the changes in the game. You will see that the two do not line up. Magnify that by six years worth of polls and six years worth of changes and again, you will see, they don't line up. There is no logical reason why you would be the one poll they suddenly listen to. As a matter of fact, swing on down to the Necromancer forums. Look at the number of polls they have and then ask them how responsive ANet is to those polls. They'll tell you, ANet doesn't really seem to care about their polls. You don't have to take my word for how unimportant these things are in the grand scope of things. There are plenty of other people who can tell you. Most folks make use of polls for fun. However, they are not representive of the Engineer community as a whole and are an extremely horrible measure for what Engineer players really want (again, got the creditentals to back a statement like that).

>

> If we are a hadful of folks and the skill is unimportant...why you take so much time and writing to reply us with this totally nonsense description of rocket boots ?(you have no idea how they work, even in the superimportant aspect of the damage, which is not the object of this discussion). Please, go deeper in the study on rocket boots blast field location mechanics and come again to give a constructive opinion.

>

Me taking the time to refute the logic of the poll doesn't somehow mean this is important (though it does amuse me that you seem to think that if I comment then the matter must be important). A thread doesn't need to be important for me to want to give my input. In the grand scope of things, most of the threads on the forums are unimportant. I comment on all sorts of threads. Just because I comment here doesn't mean its important or meaningful. Additionally, getting one aspect wrong does not mean I don't understand the skill. There are tons of skills in the game, everyone is bound to get something wrong about them. It was a minor mistake, one you cannot use to dodge the questions I possed to you. My analysis of the situation isn't dependent on which end the damage is given (the part I got wrong). It changes nothing on the matter of balance, what ANet considers balanced for this skill or the fact that Engineer already has the skill you want. Engineer has the skill you want in Jump Shot. We know what ANet considers a balanced skill for what you are requesting. Rocket Boots does more than Jump Shot. This means they will rebalance the skill to compensate for the new interaction. This rebalance will take something away from Rocket Boots. So what are you willing to give up to get two Jump Shots? Why should it be given up? You asked me to go deeper but I went deeper than you had gone as I not only considered the skill you wanted but the implication of the changes, IE balance. A balance discussion is much deeper than what you were attempting to do, which was find out who supports your idea.

Also, asking about balance is a constructive opinion. It's an important part of any discussion. The fact that it disagrees with yours doesn't make it any less constructive. How do you intend to rebalance the skill? It will be rebalanced, I can promise you that. We have a skill that does exactly what you want so they are going to change it and remove things to pull it in line with the other ability.

No, not really. Both Scrapper and Holosmith are fun to play. They bring something new to the table. They modify and change my experience as an Engineer player. There is room for improvement in the realm of Scrapper but overall, I don't miss the days before the expansion. You can still play a build that rotates through various kits to adapt to the current situation. Most of what you mention isn't necessarily gone.

Changed some, but not completely gone.

> @"MrForz.1953" said:

> > @"Dace.8173" said:

> >-snip-

>

> Whether "L2P" is hard to hear or not is irrelevant. The term itself is useless if there's no other indication beyond that. If someone went all the way to this forum to express difficulties it's because he may be in need of a personalized answer. It's obvious that he needs to "git gud" or whatever makes the poster feel good these days but he'd welcome more details on holosmiths such as:

>

> -The source of all these dodges (probably the sigil of energy with the ease of weapon swapping).

> -The main source of stability, the traited Corona Burst that lands.

> -The means to cleanse conditions (which are various depending of the build, but I'd wager it's through the use and abuse of anticorrosion plating with shield skills and hardlight arena + healing turret on this one)

> -And various things such as the photon forge's cooldown in an attempt to capitalize on.

>

> With these informations, he can do some homework on his own side with his guardian and come up with a potential solution, and this, without being an kitten. It's magic. Maybe you're quite familiar with all these kind of informations on all specs and classes but many people don't, I certainly am clueless on some specs though I'd rather make my own tests or go for trial and error, some others simply write a post on the concerned forum. You might aswell be the better person and help not only with 'what', but also 'how'.

All of that is fine, but providing the additional information that traps are not your heavy hitters makes all the information on Holosmith more likely to succeed. Again, no matter how good the advice is on how to take on a Holosmith if you don't realize that you're also using the wrong attacks it won't get you anywhere. Everyone else had already provided information on how to deal with the Holosmith. No one was addressing the other half of the issue. He did. It's not like he just said "git gud newb hahaha" or just "L2P." He pointed out that if you think traps are your hardest hitting attacks then you need to get better at playing Dragonhunter.

You guys are making a big deal out of nothing.

I never really have any problem with Unrelenting Assualt. Additionally, the skill not following someone who moves out of range is how a skill should work.

> @"Lonewolf Kai.3682" said:>

> You’ve got some highly opinionated arguments here. I personally find most of the GS usage different from class to class. For example, the warrior GS is centered around movement. The guardian GS is centered around local area cleave/aoe. The ranger GS is a hybrid defensive weapon, with a movement and power burst move in it.

>

> You may not like it, but what makes the most sense for the Revenant is having a cleaving weapon, and it being a hybrid power/condi skill set and GS makes the most sense here.

>

> And to go back to the actual topic discussion, if Jora is it, the skill set for the utilities need to be transformations akin to the Norn racials, but with actual use!

The fact that the attacks are the same is not an opinion. It's an observable fact. The experience of them may be different but a spin attack is still a spin attack. That isn't an opinion, that's an observable fact. A gap closer is still a gap closer. That's not an opinion, that's an observable fact. An attack that draws your opponent to you is still an attack that draws your opponent to you. These are all observable facts, not opinions. What you are discussing with Warrior, Guardian, and Ranger are what they do with the weapon. What I was discussing was how they go about doing that and how they copy the same basic move sets in order to do that. They could have gone down the road of making the Warrior's movement based greatsword attacks different from Ranger and Guardian, but they didn't.

As for cleave, Revenant already has cleaving attacks. The following attacks are cleave attacks for Revenant; sword: Rift Slash, Precision Strike, and Unrelenting Assualt; Mace: Misery Swipe, Anguish wipe, Manifest Toxin; Staff: Rapid Strike, Forceful Bash, Rejuvenating Assualt. You may not like it but Revenant actually has cleave attacks so an argument based around _NEEDING_ a cleaving weapon is built on sand. Additionally, any weapon can be a hybrid power/condi weapon. There is no weapon that inherently makes more sense for that role. Especially if we consider that the majority of greatsword move sets are not hybrid power/condi skill sets. Across the board, greatsword has pretty much been a power weapon. So while any weapon can be a hybrid weapon one cannot make the argument that the greatsword is logically the best choice for this because its use for other professions/Elites has been power. One can not also argue for cleave attacks in a fashion, such as yours, that implies that Revenant lacks cleave attacks. Revenant has three cleaving weapons. Those three weapons are actually staples of most Revenant builds anyway.

It simply cannot be argued that greatsword makes the most sense. Revenant already has cleave attacks. Most power builds run with sword/staff providing a player with 6 cleave attacks and condi builds run with Mace which provides 3 (possibly more if you take staff as your backup weapon). There is nothing inherent about the greatsword that says its the best weapon for hybrid builds, more so when you consider it is more a power weapon in most builds that use it. Thus you can argue that you want great sword because you feel that Revenant needs more cleave attacks and you want those cleave attacks to come from great sword. But there is no logic that supports greatsword being a natural choice for hybrid weapons.

Though the whole cleave thing amuses me since folks keep insisting that greatsword doesn't have to be a physical weapon and that it could play more like Mesmer.

> @"kasoki.5180" said:

> > @"Skotlex.7580" said:

> > Uhm, ranged isn't supposed to deal more DPS than melee. Complains about dragonhunter longbow damage should probably be in comparing it to another power ranged set, sceptre + focus.

> >

>

> I dont understand this dogma that ranged weapons cannot be stronger than melee weapons. Especially in a game that has skill splitting for different game modes and on top of that is very oriented towards forcing people into short range stacking due to boon sharing and aoe nature of heals

>

> What would be the downside if Longbow had same dps output as greatsword in PvE only? It would actually give us some much needed refreshment in my opinion

>

Higher melee damage is the reward for putting yourself in more direct danger than you would be at range. The underlying logic here applies even in PvE as melee combat is still putting you in more direct harm's way.

> @"Roam.5208" said:

> I unwisely wasted one of my Luminous skins on the longbow, hoping it would be semi decent in PvE. Now I have to wait several more months to get a greatsword skin, because it's pretty much the only good weapon for Guardian :'(

You should be doing fine with it in PvE.

> @"Susy.7529" said:

> > @"Wukie.1794" said:

> > Maybe I am wrong, but I feel like the weapon that an elite specialization unlocks shouldn't be garbage to use. I was so excited to finish unlocking Dragon Hunter, turns out I am yet ANOTHER profession using a greatsword. Starting to feel like no matter what I choose I end up with a kitten greatsword.

>

> Renegade's shortbow says HI.

Indeed.

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> Well... 99% of the DH longbow's issues come from the cast time, like most of the issues you find on weapon kits. Reducing _puncture shot_ cast time to 1/2 would make the AA a lot more pleasant to use. _Symbole of energy_ already need to be targeted, reducing the cast time shouldn't be an issue. _Hunter ward_ is a copy of the ranger's LB 5th skill but somehow end up being worst, there is a need for improvement here.

Yeah, I think a handful of QoL improvements would make the weapon great. I love using it, much like I love using Renegade shortbow, it is just so sad that you take a hit to your overall efficiency to use something so fun.

> @"Tormod.5018" said:

> You guys realize that most HoT specs were made for PvP right? I mean League Season 1-3 was when they were pushing for esports...

>

> The only other reason LB sucks on DH is that it's burst damage vs constant damage, and the fact of AoE vs single target.

>

> This is completely just balancing issues though, so gl with that.

Really?

Yeah, I find Mirage to be the bain of my existence. In a more general sense, Mirage embodies a lot of what's wrong with the current meta in regards to the PoF Elites.

> @"Ryou.2398" said:

>

> Sigh, agree to disagree in your response to me, I have experience in countless mmos that say otherwise, and stop assuming I only look at metabattle please.

Facts don't lie. Go to Youtube and look at the builds posted there and see how old they are. Most of what you'll find is not in the current meta which indicates that people are not sharing their builds nearly as often as you want to say. You'd have a point if the videos posted were current, but they aren't. Out of date builds is a clear indication that people are not sharing what they have.

Also, I did not assume anything. If you'll notice, what I actually said was "Metabattle, and sites like it" which is a clear indication that I am not making any assumptions of what you are using and a clear indication that I am discussing a general theme in the types of websites relevant to the discussion. Which I reinforce by stating meta sites, again not an indication of a specific site you go to. The only other time I mention Metabattle specifically is in relation to its usefulness to new players, again not an indication of a specific site you go to. So I'm not sure why you think I assumed you use Metabattle since my argument is very specific about the fact that I am discussing a type of web page that players at large go to. Hell, there is nothing in my argument that is framed specifically around you. My argument is clearly a discussion about the community at large and not you. The only person who made an assumption was you as you assumed my argument was about you as opposed to what it was clearly about.

> @"Buran.3796" said:

> > @"Dace.8173" said:

>

> > However, the idea that all of the best pvpers make videos and discuss what they are doing simply isn't true. There would be more videos on Youtube discussing builds than they currently are. Especially in terms of how recent they are. There are far too many vidoes that are 6+ months older, and thus discussing an entirely different meta, than there are builds that are created more recently discussing this meta for it to be the case that the best pvpers all share and talk about their builds. I did a search for Herald PvP vidoes and the most recent one I found (though I didn't spend a lot of time on this) is 4 months old. Then there are a handful of 5 month old videos and then we start hitting a year old which indicates that there was a fairly large gap in video production for Herald PvP tips. There simply is not enough video evidence to support the idea that the best PvPers share their build unless we are going to assume that Sindrener is the only good Revenant player out there.

>

> >

> I would say that theres not much videos largely due the lack of interest. Even at peak of its popularity GW2's PvP was niche at best, and that was before the end of the big tournaments, the ESL and the extinction of almost every regular YouTube/streaming channel devoted to the competitive aspects of the game. I used to follow a lot of them, but lately just ignore most of the remainers. Metabattle was always weak in the PvP following due lagging behind what was currentle happening, but in the case of the Revenant doesn't matter that much because there's a single good build which from time to time changes the off hand weapon... And that's all.

I would say that plays a role. The level to which how popular the competitive scene will most certainly have bearing on the number of videos and the frequency at which they are produced. However, even at the height of its popularity, I have some serious doubts that all the possible meta builds were being shared. Some were shared by the more generous players but the folks who placed a higher premium on their win record would spend less time making videos to help other people and more time fine tuning their own work and not bothering to share with others so that people don't figure out its weaknesses. And yeah, Metabattle is not the worlds most current meta build site out there. This is a common problem for player run meta sites as opposed to sites run by the game in question which publishes winning builds from their major tournaments on their web pages.

The other aspect that I haven't really touched upon is metabuilds that are basically good because of the player piloting it as opposed to it being super strong. Things that experiment with meta elements and things that make a build meta but putting their own unique spin on it that wouldn't really work for anyone else who isn't at that level of who don't think along the same lines as the author.

There are always more viable builds than what meta sites imply for numerous reasons and I find it sad that people think that if you don't see it on a meta site then it must not be possible. Slaves to the meta I suppose.

> @"ROMANG.1903" said:

>

>

> You missed my point entirely. I'm not saying that toolbelt is a new mechanic, I'm saying that the fact that the new scrapper utilities also bring new toolbet skills increase the amount of "new stuff", which mitigates the disappointment of the mechanic (it should be noted that this mechanic is useful in PvE group content). And I'm sorry, but I'd take literally any gyro over any tempest shout (yes, including the elite one).

Yeah, no, I didn't. I stand by my point. Also, the amount of new stuff has no bearing on the quality of new stuff. Players desire quality over quanity. An Elite could give you 50 new toys and if all 50 them sucked hard then no one would care about the fact that it got 50 new things since they are never going to be used. Additionally, you can't bring up toolbelt skills in a discussion about Elite specialization mechanics. Toolbelt is not a Scrapper mechanic. It's an Engineer mechanic. If we give weight to toolbelt then we should give weight to attunements too. But we don't. We are judging Tempest solely on the grounds of the Elite mechanic introduces, Overloads. For that reason, we need to judge Scrapper on the grounds of the Elite mechanic it introduces, Function Gyro (I'm going to put aside the argument many Scrapper players make about not actually having an Elite mechanic). You can't judge Tempest on the grounds of its Elite mechanic and then not do the same for others and instead bring in the mechanics of the Core profession as mitigating factors for why they aren't bad. Otherwise, Tempest should be considered in terms of the Core mechanics too. But you are clearly not evaluating Tempest that way. You are evaluating it based on the grounds of Overload. Thus Scrapper needs to be evaluated on the grounds of Function Gyro.

Plus, if we were to include toolbelt skills then we would need to include all the various attacks that Tempest gets from switching attunements with warhorn. You clearly are not doing that. You are clearly choosing to integrate general Core mechanics of other professions to evaluate them and then narrowly looking at Tempest and declaring it bad. Your analysis needs to be consistent in approach or it has no meaning. Either we are evaluating Elite spec mechanics, Overload v Function Gyro, or we are evaluating the Elite + Core, Tempest and Elementalist abilities v Scrapper and Engineer abilities. You can't mix and match though Overlad v Scrapper and Engineer mechanics. Comparing like things is an essential part of any discussion meant to evaluate the usefulness of mechanics.

As for the toolbelt skills themselves, you clearly have not played Scrapper so I'll break this down, the toolbelts skills do not mitigate the disappointment of the mechanic for Scrapper players in any way. Most of them are bad. And in order to even have access to them, you would need to run the Scrapper utility skills too, which are also bad. Both Gyros and the toolbelts skills they have have undergone heavy nerfs, with some pretty strong ones having occurred within the past few months. You might have a point on toolbelt mitigation if toolbelt skills were selected separately from utility skills. So even if the Scrapper toolbelt skills were good, the fact that the Gyros are useless means that in order to get access to the toolbelt skill you would have to give up a utility slot to a bad skill that could otherwise be used for a better skill. Most of the good utility skills also have good toolbelt skills. So basically means that I could take a non-Gyro and get a good utility and toolbelt skill or I could pick a Gyro and just get maybe a good toolbelt skill (under the assumption that they are good, which they are not). This isn't mitigation. There was a time when Gyros were more useful and their toolbelt skills were useful but all of the nerfs it has undergone, even going as recently as early December, has crushed their viability.

You may choose to take a Gyro over a Shout but you are purposely choosing to run with subpar skills. Shouts actually are better than Gyros. They don't depend on a very weak AI to work. Shouts have a very solid effect. Gyros fall prey to the same issues that all pets in this game suffer from. Worst yet, they actually aren't good. If you were to compare Tempest builds to Scrapper builds on meta sites you would see that there is a general consensus with folks who theorycraft and build meta builds that Shouts are useful. Hands down you will find more builds employing Shouts than you will Gyros. So sure, run with the Gyro. However, you are not making a good point by being willing to take skills that are deemed worse than Shouts by the meta build theorycrafting community.

> @"Ryou.2398" said:

>

> Yes I was wrong its been a long time since I touched my rev, but lets be honest here if these builds really did exist then why do I hardly ever see any? The only builds ive seen here are on the metabattle.com that people talked about, yes its possible there are builds that no one makes public, but the chances of that are kind of slim people share those most of the time and it would have been on youtube or something, sorry but thats just something that needs more proof really. Also I am not just talking about pve btw, and those non meta builds are unpredictable but many are also severely flawed and do not always work in pvp.

*sighs* As I stated in my post, not everyone actually shares their builds. As I said in my post, metabattle is a fraction of the possible builds out there. Metabattle, and sites like it, are populated by people who want to share what they have with others, maybe even getting feedback on a larger scale than what a forum would provide for. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It just means that if it does exist the person who made it doesn't feel like sharing. As I stated, one of the reasons top players in faction-based games hold back builds is the fear that if others knew their build they would also know its weaknesses and how to counter it.

This is also, inherently, why you shouldn't rely just on meta builds from meta sites but experiment with your own stuff. Developing your own build that is fine-tuned to your own unique style can get you further than just relying on metabattle. Metabattle is great, especially for new people and especially for trying to get a general idea of what is considered good. It, however, is not the end. It is the beginning.

If you think the chances are slim then you underestimate high-end competitive play. I can promise you that most people do not share their builds. If that were the case there would be 50% more builds on that site. Considering the overall small amount of builds there, it's clear that not a lot of folks are sharing. Read the comments. Read the authors. You'll notice that there isn't this huge list of individuals but often a fairly stable set of players invested in sharing. That set is infinitely small compared to the size of this games playerbase. If you think it would have been on Youtube then you clearly haven't spent a lot of time in high-end competitive play for most games. Yes, people share. However, not to degree that you think they do.

> @"Justine.6351" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"narcx.3570" said:

> > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > On the flip side, this is what makes Revenant a bit of a wild card in PVP. It's more difficult to predict because the philosophy behind the builds is completely different than all the other classes.

> > >

> > > As far as PvP goes, Revenant is basically shackled to one build tho... And this is because you literally need Glint and you absolutely need Shiro, or you *will* die fast. The second you see a Rev swap to a stance that isn't one of those two, you know that you can easily immob/focus/+5points them all game long. And if a Rev is running something goofy like a tanky Jalis wvw zerg setup, hoping to not die so fast--they still will--but as a bonus, you don't even have to kill them as they no longer have the mobility or burst to apply any kind of pressure.

> > >

> > > I mean, maybe in Bronze or something you'll torment bomb some people with Mallyx, or be able to heal through a fight with Ventari, or even cleave up some team fights with Ren/SB, but those are so easily countered and played around that any off-meta success from a rev build drops off hard once you win a few games in a row and get your mmr up a bit.

> > >

> > > To be fair though, most classes only have one or two meta builds... Thats the sort of definition of something being Most Effective At. They have the illusion of a bunch of choices, but realistically everyone is using one or two builds with slight variations, and if they aren't, their team is just as kittened at them as yours would be at you if you were playing Mallyx/Kalla.

> >

> > There are other ways to get tools you don't have. PVP isn't just a duel. People ignore the strategic. I mean, there is a balance between the unpredictable and the fundamental. As was mentioned, the best PVPers don't tell you their builds or their ideas on how to fight. The basic message is that if you only play meta in PVP, you're going to hit a ceiling.

>

> ? The best pvpers do tell builds and talk about decisions they make. Some of them stream. Sindrener for example likes to talk about what is happening and why he is doing what he is doing.

Some do. Not all. The idea that all the best players share their build and talk about them is just silly. Not everyone is generous and high-end competitive play is one of the more toxic aspects in any faction based game. Part of this toxicity derives from just how jealously people guard their secrets so that they can win. I've seen this across multiple games and Guild Wars is not some kind of outlier.

This is one of the reasons why when you watch videos from some competitive players you don't always hear the in-game commentary as it happens. Folks like to cover up the strategies their teams are employing. I've watched a lot of those videos where folks are showing off their build and how powerful what they are doing is. I've seen far more videos that are just showing off what is going on than I do ones that lay it out step by step and in which you hear the in-game team speak. Some people do give you pointers and tell you what they are doing. However, far more just show you what is going on and kinda sorta leaves it to you to figure out how to actually replicate what is going on.

However, the idea that all of the best pvpers make videos and discuss what they are doing simply isn't true. There would be more videos on Youtube discussing builds than they currently are. Especially in terms of how recent they are. There are far too many vidoes that are 6+ months older, and thus discussing an entirely different meta, than there are builds that are created more recently discussing this meta for it to be the case that the best pvpers all share and talk about their builds. I did a search for Herald PvP vidoes and the most recent one I found (though I didn't spend a lot of time on this) is 4 months old. Then there are a handful of 5 month old videos and then we start hitting a year old which indicates that there was a fairly large gap in video production for Herald PvP tips. There simply is not enough video evidence to support the idea that the best PvPers share their build unless we are going to assume that Sindrener is the only good Revenant player out there.

> @"narcx.3570" said:

>

> I mean, with Rev specifically in mind, that's just not true. Especially the higher tier you're playing at and especially outside of duels. In duels, off-meta specs like hybrid mallyx/glint can actually win certain matchups because it comes down to the players. But like, once you're in an actual game, you're either going to be team fighting, or you're going to be decapping/+1'ing. If you're team fighting, you should expect to have target called on you and face a barrage of immobspam, hard cc, and focus fire and there's simply no way to recreate the tools given to you by Glint/Shiro to survive. You can't simply change some traits and run a secret runeset to get back the mobility of Shiro, the window of safety given by Infused Light, or having a useable stunbreak in both stances. Like, the only thing you can even attempt to recreate is a Sigil of Escape to counter one immob/chill/cripple, but that is way not enough. And if you're trying to decap or roam without them... You'll not only be super ineffective at it (no mobility), but you'll also lack the escape tools to avoid getting picked off and left to slowly bleed out between points.

>

> Maybe one day anet will bring back the Rune of Surging and we'll actually have another "build" option again--lulz.

To be clear, the argument being advanced is that Metabattle does not show us ALL of the potential builds that you could run with Revenant and do well in with PvP. While the number of additional builds may be small considering the limitations placed on Revenant via its mechanics Metabattle, and sites like it, are not giving us a 100% full picture on the potential Revenant has.

> @"Ryou.2398" said:

>

> Ummm yes it does because the utilities come with the weapons and you cannot simply change them so anyone can easily see how something like that is harder to balance only a few builds is still not as good as spot as other classes. I already know the mechanics and things about rev but thanks? I do not see lack of builds as advantage seems to me your trying to make it sound better then it is for some odd reason oh well.

Utilities come with the weapons? Are you sure you got that right? Utilities come with the Legends. Still, you are mistaken on the balance front. The issue with Revenant builds is not balance related, so to speak. It's mechanic restricted. Revenant will never have the number of metabuilds that most other professions get. This isn't due to balance. This isn't due to weaker skills. This is due to how skills are chosen in this profession. If Revenant worked like everyone else it would have a higher metabuild count. It doesn't though. 100% we are not dealing with a balance problem here. If you think Revenant is not in as good spot as the other professions due to build count then you really aren't understanding Revenant.

All things considered, Revenant is still in a nice spot. Comparing it to other professions is pointless. Most Revenant players play the profession because they like what it does, not how many meta builds it has. You may not see a lack of builds as an advantage but it can be. Like I said, for people who are good at theorycraft they are capable of using the lack of builds against other people. For a person tied to metabuilds from other sites then yeah, it sucks. The lack of meta builds is only a disadvantage for people who rely on sites like metabattle to do build craft. For anyone else, it's an advantage as it makes them unpredictable. Why do you think the higher people get in PvP the more closely they guard their build? Because they don't want others duplicating what they can do and thus making people familiar on how to counter it. The builds you see on sites like metabattle are not an exhaustive list. It's a snapshot. There are plenty of builds capable of doing well in the meta that don't get posted online. If somoene thinks they've figured out a way to win that no one else has they may not be inclined to share it with others for fear that, as I said, people will figure out how to beat it. Having a lot of metabuilds is great and all but all those metabuilds that are posted online also means people can study how to counter them.

I actually don't need to make Revenant sound better. Hands down it is better than you are implying.

> @"ROMANG.1903" said:

> Thinking about it, Tempest might indeed change the way you play elementalist. I think the real issue I have with it is that in order to use that mechanic, you need to adobt an incredibly boring and slow gameplay, that doesn't offer any flexibility. Yes, now that I'm writing it, I think that flexibility is what really bothers me: Overloads always do the same thing with the same restrictions, as opposed to most others specs. The Daredevil and Mirage can use their dodges mutch more creatively than the Tempest can use their overloads.

>

Mirage is more useful in part because it's a PoF Elite and just about all of them are more powerful and go a lot further in changing how you play. Daredevil dodge is nothing compared to Mirage dodge. Daredevil just gets an extra dodge. Mirage literally changes the nature of dodging itseful.

> On the topic of the Scrapper, it is indeed hard not to agree that the new mechanic is rather laughable. I see 2 main reasons why this doesn't bother me as mutch as for Tempest: First, that new mechanic doesn't have any combat usefulness. Put it simply, you don't have to make room for it in your rotation, while the Tempest needs to wait for very long Overload cooldowns in order to make use of their class mechanic.

> The other reason I see is that the Scrapper, with the toolbelt, effectively has twice as many additional utility skills than others elite specs. This eases the feeling of having a lackluster mechanic.

>

Toolbelts don't count as that is an Engineer-mechanic, not a Scrapper mechanic. Saying that toolbelt mitigates is like saying changing elements mitigates for Tempest. If we were to take toolbelt into account then we would have to take all the possible weapon combinations Elementalist gets from switching elements and the new ones warhorn adds. Scrapper, itself, doesn't change the nature of toolbelt. Core Engineer and Holosmith use toolbelt too and that is just as normal of a function for Engineer as switching elements is for an Elementalist. If toolbelts counts, changing elements does too. As for effectively having twice as many utility skills .... do you actually play Engineer? Toolbelt skills are useful but there are not a replacement or an addition to utility skills.

Function Gyro is the mechanic here. It is not only lackluster, it is useless in several cases. Nothing about toolbelt changes that for Scrapper. The only time you can use Function Gyro is in competitive modes when someone goes down, either to stomp them or to revive them. So basically the Scrapper mechanic doesn't work until someone is ready to die. Overloads have an effect at all times. Function Gyro is useless in PvE. Overload is useful in PvE. The fact that it doesn't have a combat usefulness makes it worse than Overload. Yeah, you have to make rotation adjustments, but every Elite that is actually worth talking about does this. In order to use Function Gyro you have to interrupt your rotation. 100% if you intend to actually use Function Gyro you are going to have to make room for it in your rotation, only unlike a normal rotation change it's an unplanned rotation move. You can plan your use of Overload into your rotation. Can't do that with Function Gyro. Overload changes your rotation but it changes it in a positive way. People who are good with Scrapper can make great use of Function Gyro. There is some strength to being able to rez someone without putting yourself in harms way or stomping someone without putting yourself in harms way. But outside of that, you don't use it. Overload has far more uses and far more frequent uses, and doesn't require people to be in downed state before you get a chance to use it. Really the whole rotation argument is pointless. If you don't like changes to your rotation then you aren't really going to like much about this game as all new mechanics affect your rotation in some form or fashion. Skill buffs and nerfs changes your rotation. Weapon buffs and nerfs changes your rotation. Changes to runes and sigils changes your rotation. All changes to a profession change rotation. Rotations are meant to be updated to take into account new conditions.

> That makes me think about the fact that the Tempest also has ridiculously miserable utility skills compared to any other elite spec... Compared to any other core spec actually. I don't feel like I have anything to compensate for my disappointment in the new mechanic. I wouldn't even use Rebound as a utility skill if it had half the cooldown, that's how miserable the elite feels. The fact that core Elementalist elite skills don't fall very far behind on the scale of miserability doesn't help either.

You clearly have not played Scrapper. Gyros are useless. More useless than Tempest Shouts. They have been hit with so many nerfs that I can't think of a metabuild that makes use of them. The only useful Gyro is Stealth Gyro, the elite. That's it. Recent changes to Gyros made taking them to make use of their toolbelt skill even pointless. Hands down, in almost every way, Tempest is better than Scrapper in terms of Elite mechanic and new utility. What makes Scrapper any good these days are all related to how well you can pair the Scrapper trait line with the rest of Engineer. But most Scrapper players get little to no use out of Scrapper's mechanic and utilities. I run Scrapper as my WvW condi build because I like the barriers it generates and I only make use of Stealth Gyro for moving across the map and attempting escapes. A lot of people who are good with Scrapper are just good Engineer players in general and are relying on the strength of Core Engineer to carry what they enjoy about Scrapper.

I have trouble with the idea that Tempest is a failed design but somehow the other HoT Elites are not failed designs for pretty much the same thing.

Dragonhunter changes your virtues but doesn't really change your play. This is really apparent when we look at Firebrand and we see what it really means to change how Guardian is played by giving it 15 new attacks from the tomes alone. Daredevil gets a third dodge and if you consider Tempest's Overloads as not enough of a change then Daredevil fits that too. Glint doesn't change much of anything in regards to Revenant play. You pop your True Nature to extend boons. Seriously? That's a change in playstyle? Berserker gets Primal Burst which is just a powered up super attack. Kinda like an extra elite skill. Reaper is core Necromancer with a stronger death theme and a really cool new shroud mode. Scourge shows us what truly changing a Necromancer looks like. Chronomancer blows up clones to change time itself but that's just a new application for the destruction of your clones. Oh and Scrapper ....... oooooooooooooohhhhhh Scrapper. Function Gyro is more useless than what the Tempest has. At least what the Tempest can do with Overload can be useful at any time, anywhere. Function Gyro is only useful in competitive modes under specific circumstances. It is unusable in most PvE play. Tempest is nowhere near as bad as Scrapper. The only two that really change how you play in the way that the OP seems to indicate are Druid, Celestial Avatar truly is different, and ...... hmmm that's it.

Now, I say that to highlight that outside of Ranger most of the professions don't see any true change to how they are played until PoF. All of the HoT Elites are kinda like baby steps as ANet tried to figure out what exactly they were going to do. Most of the PoF Elites actually do change the way you play. I say most because ..... you know .... Deadeye isn't a biiiiiggg change. What I think the other HoT Elites do better than Tempest, well some of them anyway, is have the small changes that are made be more useful. Daredevil's third dodge is not a change to mechanics. While it gets new skill combinations the same is true for Tempest. What separates Daredevil from Tempest is not that Daredevil changed Thief but that it made it more powerful and that the changes synergize very well. The same is true of Chronomancer. The basic mechanic for Chronmancer is "break clones to do something." Conceptional this is no different than Overload. In practice, though Chronomancer is more powerful. I see a lot of responses, especially in regards to Daredevil, confuse changes that made the profession more powerful with changes that actually changed the profession itself.

Simply put, most of the Elites in HoT don't actually change the profession mechanic. When you compare HoT Elites to PoF Elites it becomes clear that they don't actually change the profession. HoT Elite just opens up new player options. What happens with a lot of the HoT Elites is that some of them are more useful than Tempest. One could argue that Tempest is not that useful. But one cannot argue that Tempest is the only failed Elite on the grounds that Overload doesn't change how it players. This is a critique that HoT faces in general and I think it would be safer to assume that Tempest is not failed but underpowered.

> @"ROMANG.1903" said:

> > @"Patty.3268" said:

> > I feel this thread is kind of running in circles, so I will post a last time and be happy with whatever comes out of this thread.

> >

> > > @"ROMANG.1903" said:

> > >Tempest doesn't change your rotation, you just add an AOE here and there. Mirage and Daredevil allow different skill combinations depending on what you're using as a weapon or utility skills. It allows you to adapt your gameplay in many ways. There again, Tempest always does the same thing no matter what: Wait 4 seconds for an AOE, then continue your rotation...

> >

> > I will rephrase this and explain why afterwards: Daredevil doesn't change your rotation, you just add a dodge here and there. Tempest allows different skill combinations depending on what you're using as a weapon or utility skills. It allows you to adapt your gameplay in many ways. There again, Daredevil always does the same thing no matter what: Wait a few seconds for a dodge, the continue your rotation...

>

> Daredevil has options to customize their dodges on top of having a 3rd one. It allows repositioning and risktaking that wouldn't be possible otherwise, which do have effect on how you use your others abilities. It's also less restrictive and niche to use than an overload. And no, I'm sorry but you'll have to explain me exactly how "Tempest allows different skill combinations depending on what you're using as a weapon or utility skills" instead of simply copy/pasting what I said... Overloading doesn't offer more opportunities. It only deals damage, with a few short buffs here and there.

Tempest has options to customize and otherwise change what their Overloads do. Yes, Daredevil allows for repositioning and risk-taking but it's not because the Daredevil changed the profession. It just gave it a new toy to play with. Tempest and Overloads change the way you play Elementalist too, just not in the fashion that it changes Daredevil. Overload 100% effects how you use other abilities and their use will change the timing of when you switch elements and how long you remain in one. If you consider a third dodge as changing Thief then Overload changes Elementalist too. I find the idea that Tempest doesn't change your rotation laughable as making use of Overloads means you have to remain in your element longer and rotation is not just about the buttons you press but the timing of attacks too. Overload changes timing and thus changes rotation. What you are arguing about is whether or not those changes are useful. Daredevil being less restrictive or niche does not mean that its mechanics changed it and Overload doesn't. This is an argument for the usefulness of a change, not on whether or not the change actually occurred. Complaining about dealing damage and short buffs is an argument about the usefulness of it, not one that about whether or not Tempest constitutes a change.

100% Tempest is a change. All of your arguments are basically about whether or not that change is actually useful or competitive. If the changes that Daredevil makes actually counts as changing game play then 100% Tempest counts too. If you argue that Tempest doesn't then that also means that Daredevil's aren't either. The difference between the two is not about the act of change, as they both do, but whether or not that change is good or useful.

Also, hands down, Scrapper got it worse than Tempest in terms of the new changes actually being useful.

> @"Ryou.2398" said:

> Thanks all I forget they have to balance around those utilities but hopefully something will change for the better soon.

Change for the better? The utilities thing is not a balance issue. It's merely a design aspect/choice. Revenant really isn't in that bad of a spot. There are aspects that need to be changed, such as Renegade needs some love to be viable in PvP. Weapon performance needs to be improved across the board so that staff stops being the Revenant workhorse that it is. Shortbow needs some love, such as a mobility move. And there need to be some synergy improvements between traits and Legends that allows for Ventari to be more viable than it currently is. Aside from that though, in terms of more builds, there isn't much that can be done to make that better other than introducing new Legends (which we would get in an expansion) or a Revenant player finding a way to make a previously unknown combination of Legends + Traits that works. If you are coming at Revenant expecting to have a lot of builds to chose from then you'll be disappointed. The best that could be done in that instance is to make your own build and attempt to come up with a combination of Legends + Traits you enjoy. But I wouldn't expect ANet to specifically change the situation since it is all the result of how Revenant is constructed and there is no way around that aside from a rewrite or a redo of the profession, which many of us would oppose as we actually like what we have.

Revenant is loads of fun. Focus less on the number of builds and more on simply enjoy the profession and the challenge of making the resources you are given work for you. However, if you are looking for Jack-of-all-Trades with lots of builds to choose from then you need to head over to Engineer or Elementalist as those two are JoT professions with a normal way of selecting utilities thus allow for greater build diversity.

Honestly, I see the lack of builds as an advantage. For people who are good at making their own builds, they're able to surprise folks who are expecting a very cookie cutter, well-known build that most folks know of right now. Revenant players that are good at making their own builds are unpredictable and most people will not be able to adjust in the time frame of a single match against what you are doing.

> @"DonArkanio.6419" said:

> Well I think that GS _could_ be interesting for me if they actually went crazy with it. I'd love to see attacka that look similar to Irelia in League. FB's Axe attempts to do this but it still doesn't feel like it.

>

It took a LOOOOOONG time before I could finally accept the Firebrand axe animations.

> @"Ryou.2398" said:

> Can I play it to the jack of all trades design I thought this to be yet? I heard shortbow got the shaft so I guess no renegade? Thanks all!

Renegade is a lot of fun. There is more to an Elite than the specialty weapon and plenty of folks roll with the Elite and leave its weapon behind. Overall, I find it to be a lot of fun and can do a fair amount in the right hands.

> @"Ryou.2398" said:

> > @"ScottBroChill.3254" said:

> > It fits better in todays meta than it did in yesterdays meta. Not much change to the revenant itself.

>

> Oh I see, I cannot believe its still only two builds but I do love doni I really enjoyed mal is that part of the renegade build by any chance?

The thing about build diversity you have to remember is that you aren't picking your utilities. You pick a Legend and he provides your utilities and so there are fewer moving parts when creating a new build. New builds tend to be based out of the traits selected since skill selection isn't a thing. For other professions, they can generate more builds because they can mix and match utility skills to their heart's content. Revenant isn't doing that so it will naturally have fewer build options since there are only so many good combinations of Legends you can go with.

However, lack of builds does not mean it is bad or isn't fun and there is a fair amount of wiggle room when it comes to the traits you roll with. As for Mallyx, he fits into a lot of condi Renegade builds. Just go over to metabattle and see for yourself. You'll get most of your build questions answered there.