Dace.8173

> @"SWI.4127" said:

> It feels that way because skills are linked with legends, and traitlines are basically linked with legends too. Hell, the Rejuvenation traitline has baseline traits that are literally worthless if you don't use Ventari. I love Revenant, but it feels really restrictive sometimes. I really wish they'd create 1 or 2 extra skills for each legend and give us a bit of choice.

I actually don't mind the lack of skill choice and I don't think adding an extra 1 or 2 skills would actually fix anything, let alone the things people see as problematic. Unless they were to do away with the concept and how Legends work there really wouldn't be a real benefit to adding additional skills. I think it will be easier for them to address current issues if the profession remains the way it is and they just buff up the current skill set some. An additional skill or two would give you the illusion of choice as odds are strong that there would be one or two skills that most of the community would agree are weak anyway and thus not real choices. That and the inability to mix and match outside of your Legends would still keep the same issues that many people have.

Overall, Revenant is a love/hate profession. It is a really strong break from how the rest of the game works and that makes it hard to pick up. The lack of skill choice is not an easy adjustment. I think the biggest problem for the profession isn't how powerful it is but that people try to force themselves to like the profession (not directed at the person I quoted. I'm just branching off from the quote). A lot of people love the background for it but the way it actually works really isn't for them. But because they love the background so much they force themselves to like and play a profession that isn't for them. This, in turn, creates frustration and negative feelings which in turn bleeds into how powerful the profession feels (though I'm not saying that everyone who feels it is weak is forcing themselves to like the profession). I have a couple of folks in my guild who complain about how stressful and unfun the profession is for them but they won't give it up because they just love the background. Thus they keep saying that they are just missing something and that missing factor is why it's not fun. The reality though is that it likely isn't a missing factor. It's more likely that despite the profession having a relatively cool background it isn't for them. Not every profession is for everyone, no matter how cool you think it sounds.

I think that if the profession would be easier to address in regards to fixing it if people weren't forcing themselves to like it so much. Personally, I find the profession to be fun and challenging. There are definitely easier professions to do well with while playing WvW and PvP ( I rock PvP with my Weaver :) ). I don't see the profession as good as a few folks in this thread indicate. But flipside I also don't see it as bad. I feel Revenant is a work in progress. I think given enough time that the profession will make it to where it needs to be.

> @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > > > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > > > > > @"Phosphorite.6192" said:

> > > > > > So making those things just like any other skill with a cooldown? Sounds a lot less interesting to me. Personally, I enjoy variants in gameplay.

> > > > >

> > > > > That's great. I, however, enjoy just playing the game, not resource gate, and like the idea of more balance between professions in wvw. Profession skills are varied enough to appease my need for variants in gameplay.

> > > >

> > > > I prefer things the way they are. I find it hard to call such mechanics a gate. If I don't want to resource manage then I pick one of my toons that doesn't have to do that. I think the strength of the game is the fact that it's open to different playstyles. There's no sane reason why ALL the professions need to be on the same mechanic and that same mechanic be stances. Downplaying flavor and claiming it creates an imbalance in modes such as WvW is not a compelling argument. I play WvW mostly and I'm not convinced by your argument that resource management creates an imbalance there ( I also think your backhanded slight against PvE players isn't really necessary to make a point but that's me). There are numerous reasons that imbalances exist and I see little evidence that would suggest that switching to stances suddenly fixes those problems.

> > > >

> > > > However, the biggest thing you haven't considered is that it would be a nightmare to implement. You're pretty much suggesting that players relearn their professions because you don't like something. These are the kind of things a game considers in its design phase. Not 5 or 6 years into the life of the game. There is no material benefit for what you suggest aside from you not liking managing your resources.

> > > >

> > > > Frankly, some of us actually enjoy resource management (managing Photon Forge is fun and I enjoy the challenge of getting the most out of the time you're in Forge mode before you drop out or burn) and some of us who have played WvW and PvP really don't see it as a problem, despite your assertion that players would welcome such a change.

> > >

> > > So you’re saying that Druid and Shroud are not gated by resource?

> > >

> > > Why should a player play something else because they don’t like the mechanics of the profession? Someone could love playing a mage type Elementalist in games, but hate the design. So your answer of “play something else” doesn’t really cut it.

> > >

> > > So you’re aguing that the difference in 9 unique professions, with unique weapon skills across those professions, with unique slot skills and traits... are all basically the same, but what truly defines their “varied playstyle” is the resources on only some of the different professions?

> > >

> > > The “sane reason” is called a simple step toward balancing.

> > >

> > > Someone’s angle was “mostly pve”, as stated. My angle is mostly competitive play vs other players. There is a huge difference.

> > >

> > > Being “5 or 6 years into the lifecycle” is meaningless. Don’t act as if change isn’t possible. Games that have been around just as long, or longer, have made various changes from their original launch state. That’s a weak argument.

> > >

> >

> > Why should everyone who has been playing the game since release change how they play because you don't like something? You're whole "why should a player something else because they don’t like the mechanics of the profession?" is a faulty premise because I'm suggesting that if you don't like a particular mechanic then play a profession that suits your taste. There are plenty of professions that would suit your tastes. What you are suggesting is upending the entire game because YOU don't like something. You are suggesting that all the mechanics work the exact same way, stances, because you don't like it. I'm arguing that the current set up provides people who like resource management something to play with and people who don't like it something to play with it. If someone likes playing a mage type but hates the design then that's on them. Some people like the design. So should the rest of us suffer because of one person who doesn't like it? On no level can you argue against people playing different professions to avoid the resource mechanic when you are essentially arguing that the entire game be reworked to avoid having to use resources.

> >

> > So why should the rest of us be forced to change how we play the game just to suit you? I can use the entirety of your response to me to argue against your premise.

> >

> > And no, there is no sane reason. You have not effectively established that the game is not balanced due to resource-based mechanics. The only thing you've established is that you don't like it and that the rest of us should change our playstyles because of that. So no, I'm not arguing that resource is what defines their playstyle. There is a lot that defines a playstyle of which resource management is just one thing. Your entire argument from start to finish is fairly weak. So yeah, there is no sane or logical reasons to rework the entire game design six years into it's life to fix a balance issue you have not effectively established as being there.

> >

> > Also, you still opted to be insulting to an entire playstyle. You can't justify it by claiming you are talking about playing competitively. In case you missed it, several folks who have responded to you play competitively, myself included, who stand firmly against your suggestion.

> >

> >

>

> You can’t understand that requiring resources to access certain skills is gating skills. Some have stricter resources than other, and that’s an unnecessary design that contributes to 1, of many, balance issues.

>

> You’re acting as if having some design changes, on certain professions and elites, is somehow a catastrophic change. It’s not, sorry.

>

> Most play the class and role they like, not the mechanic they like... Time to differentiate between the two.

>

> Removing a resource gate in selective areas is somehow associated with “suffering”? Please explain more?

>

> You haven’t provided any rational, or “sane”, reason why things shouldn’t change. Your rebuttal was that the game in in a later lifecycle... Like other game companies haven’t made revamps from original designs...

>

> Spin doctoring my “pve” comment doesn’t really work. Try reading the entire exchange and my full sentences.

Yeah, no I'm not explaining anything about suffering. You have done ZERO work to establish an actual imbalance in gameplay or design. You've just told people that they don't understand or can't understand. I don't need to provide a rational or a reason for anything. I'm not the one arguing for a change. You are. The burden of proof is on you. You are the one that has to provide a sane and logical rational beyond you not liking gating mechanics. You have to illustrate exactly how an imbalance is created and why that imbalance is specifically related to resource management. You also need to establish why it's an actual imbalance and not a poor play style, inability to manage your resources properly, or the professions just not being suited to you.

You have yet to actually formulate an argument, true counterpoints or counter-arguments, or a sufficient rebuttal to anything anyone has said. You have continually deflected and attempted to shift the burden of proof from yourself to other people. However, that's not how a discussion works. The person who makes the claim must also provide the warrant for the proposed change. Claiming it fixes game imbalances in competitive play (while at the same time trying to slight PvE play) is not a sufficient warrant without you establishing to a reasonable degree that whatever game imbalance you talk of is related to resource management or that what you speak of is actually an imbalance. The closest you have gotten on that mark is complaining that a Druid is not being able to heal his buddies during combat, but that's not a game imbalance but improper management of your abilities. You have made the claim that it acts as a gate without even remotely establishing that gate as a bad thing or an imbalance. You have pretty much constructed an argument from ignorance. That may work with your group of friends but I'm actually trained in formal debate and discussions. You have done nothing to build a case, prove your case, or provide a reason why it's needed.

I actually don't have to do anything. I can opt to counter anything you say but I'm actually not required to do anything other than disagree. The burden of proof does not rest on me since I did not make the inherent claim that started this discussion. So spin all the tricks you wish but they aren't going to fly with me. I have consistently pointed out that you have not provided any evidence for your case, a point to which you have dodged and instead attempted to shift the conversation back onto what I haven't proven. That tactic may work with your group of friends, but it doesn't work on me.

So prove your case. Prove an actual imbalance. Prove how stances fix this imbalance. Illustrate how what you are complaining about is an actual gaming problem and not just your inability to manage your resources properly. At present no one has stood in agreement with you, despite your erroneous claim that people would welcome the change. Provide the sane and logical rational because at present all we have is you complaining about something you don't like and nothing else.

> @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > > > @"Phosphorite.6192" said:

> > > > So making those things just like any other skill with a cooldown? Sounds a lot less interesting to me. Personally, I enjoy variants in gameplay.

> > >

> > > That's great. I, however, enjoy just playing the game, not resource gate, and like the idea of more balance between professions in wvw. Profession skills are varied enough to appease my need for variants in gameplay.

> >

> > I prefer things the way they are. I find it hard to call such mechanics a gate. If I don't want to resource manage then I pick one of my toons that doesn't have to do that. I think the strength of the game is the fact that it's open to different playstyles. There's no sane reason why ALL the professions need to be on the same mechanic and that same mechanic be stances. Downplaying flavor and claiming it creates an imbalance in modes such as WvW is not a compelling argument. I play WvW mostly and I'm not convinced by your argument that resource management creates an imbalance there ( I also think your backhanded slight against PvE players isn't really necessary to make a point but that's me). There are numerous reasons that imbalances exist and I see little evidence that would suggest that switching to stances suddenly fixes those problems.

> >

> > However, the biggest thing you haven't considered is that it would be a nightmare to implement. You're pretty much suggesting that players relearn their professions because you don't like something. These are the kind of things a game considers in its design phase. Not 5 or 6 years into the life of the game. There is no material benefit for what you suggest aside from you not liking managing your resources.

> >

> > Frankly, some of us actually enjoy resource management (managing Photon Forge is fun and I enjoy the challenge of getting the most out of the time you're in Forge mode before you drop out or burn) and some of us who have played WvW and PvP really don't see it as a problem, despite your assertion that players would welcome such a change.

>

> So you’re saying that Druid and Shroud are not gated by resource?

>

> Why should a player play something else because they don’t like the mechanics of the profession? Someone could love playing a mage type Elementalist in games, but hate the design. So your answer of “play something else” doesn’t really cut it.

>

> So you’re aguing that the difference in 9 unique professions, with unique weapon skills across those professions, with unique slot skills and traits... are all basically the same, but what truly defines their “varied playstyle” is the resources on only some of the different professions?

>

> The “sane reason” is called a simple step toward balancing.

>

> Someone’s angle was “mostly pve”, as stated. My angle is mostly competitive play vs other players. There is a huge difference.

>

> Being “5 or 6 years into the lifecycle” is meaningless. Don’t act as if change isn’t possible. Games that have been around just as long, or longer, have made various changes from their original launch state. That’s a weak argument.

>

Why should everyone who has been playing the game since release change how they play because you don't like something? You're whole "why should a player something else because they don’t like the mechanics of the profession?" is a faulty premise because I'm suggesting that if you don't like a particular mechanic then play a profession that suits your taste. There are plenty of professions that would suit your tastes. What you are suggesting is upending the entire game because YOU don't like something. You are suggesting that all the mechanics work the exact same way, stances, because you don't like it. I'm arguing that the current set up provides people who like resource management something to play with and people who don't like it something to play with it. If someone likes playing a mage type but hates the design then that's on them. Some people like the design. So should the rest of us suffer because of one person who doesn't like it? On no level can you argue against people playing different professions to avoid the resource mechanic when you are essentially arguing that the entire game be reworked to avoid having to use resources.

So why should the rest of us be forced to change how we play the game just to suit you? I can use the entirety of your response to me to argue against your premise.

And no, there is no sane reason. You have not effectively established that the game is not balanced due to resource-based mechanics. The only thing you've established is that you don't like it and that the rest of us should change our playstyles because of that. So no, I'm not arguing that resource is what defines their playstyle. There is a lot that defines a playstyle of which resource management is just one thing. Your entire argument from start to finish is fairly weak. So yeah, there is no sane or logical reasons to rework the entire game design six years into it's life to fix a balance issue you have not effectively established as being there.

Also, you still opted to be insulting to an entire playstyle. You can't justify it by claiming you are talking about playing competitively. In case you missed it, several folks who have responded to you play competitively, myself included, who stand firmly against your suggestion.

This is something I say to a lot but, there is no one true path. No one best anything. More so in PvE. There are professions and Elites that may be easier or harder to learn or master but being easy or hard doesn't always equate to best. It all basically comes down to your build and your playstyle. While it may be true that there is no one true path and no best profession it is also the case that not every profession/elite is suited for everyone. Folks can advise you on what they find fun but what's fun for me may not be fun for you.

My best advice is to just build a bunch of toons and keep playing around with them to figure out which one is best for you.

> @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > @"Phosphorite.6192" said:

> > So making those things just like any other skill with a cooldown? Sounds a lot less interesting to me. Personally, I enjoy variants in gameplay.

>

> That's great. I, however, enjoy just playing the game, not resource gate, and like the idea of more balance between professions in wvw. Profession skills are varied enough to appease my need for variants in gameplay.

I prefer things the way they are. I find it hard to call such mechanics a gate. If I don't want to resource manage then I pick one of my toons that doesn't have to do that. I think the strength of the game is the fact that it's open to different playstyles. There's no sane reason why ALL the professions need to be on the same mechanic and that same mechanic be stances. Downplaying flavor and claiming it creates an imbalance in modes such as WvW is not a compelling argument. I play WvW mostly and I'm not convinced by your argument that resource management creates an imbalance there ( I also think your backhanded slight against PvE players isn't really necessary to make a point but that's me). There are numerous reasons that imbalances exist and I see little evidence that would suggest that switching to stances suddenly fixes those problems.

However, the biggest thing you haven't considered is that it would be a nightmare to implement. You're pretty much suggesting that players relearn their professions because you don't like something. These are the kind of things a game considers in its design phase. Not 5 or 6 years into the life of the game. There is no material benefit for what you suggest aside from you not liking managing your resources.

Frankly, some of us actually enjoy resource management (managing Photon Forge is fun and I enjoy the challenge of getting the most out of the time you're in Forge mode before you drop out or burn) and some of us who have played WvW and PvP really don't see it as a problem, despite your assertion that players would welcome such a change.

Holosmith is definitely easier to pick up than standard Engineer and Scrapper. That appears to be the general consensus at least. I know I find playing it a bit easier than when I opt to play a Scrapper build or a basic Engineer build. At some point you are going to want to learn kits to make yourself truly versatile, otherwise, you are basically playing half a profession and will be at a disadvantage in places like WvW. I've noticed in WvW that the basic Engineer players on kit build tear apart the Holosmiths they encounter.

The issue isn't really that you can't play an Engineer easily, as a lot of folks describe Holosmith as the easier way to play Engineer. It's always been that the learning curve is steep if you actually want to be good at playing the Engineer. But that's only important if you are a competive player in WvW or PvP. If you are more into PvE or you don't really care about how well you do in WvW or PvP then being good at it isn't required. I see a few folks who enter WvW just to have fun with their toon. The folks that want to be at the top of, being able to solo camps and take on 2 to 3 people at a time, those folks are going to face a bit of a harder learning curve than say someone who picks up Scourge and just surrounds themselves with AOEs.

Which is why I typically recommend folks level it to 80. You can boost it to 80 and pick Holosmith and do fine. But the profession is easier for most folks to master if they put in the time to learn all the kinks of it gradually.

> @"starlinvf.1358" said:

> Warrior is sustain, Guardian is support. Both are actually good DPS classes due to their designs, despite how they might be described. The faster you shake off classifications from other MMOs, the faster you can figure out what each profession in this game is good at.

>

> For instance.... we have 3 designated "tanky classes", but none of them were ever Meta qualified for the Tank role in Raids. That job landed up being dominated by Chrono Mesmer...... the most support heavy spec of a utility support class.

I agree. Just because something appears to be one thing doesn't mean it is that or more precisely the only thing it can do. You'd be surprised at what interesting things you can do with any given profession once you break away from the standard MMO thinking.

Engineer is a learning curve and it is something I don't recommend boosting. If you don't like meta then you will definitely want to level an Engineer the old way so that you can get a good feeling for how it works. I know you can do a trial run with the boost but that is a poor substitute for actually LEARNING the profession. Most folks will never play in the trial area enough to actually figure out if they would really like it. I think the boost trial is more a gimmick, a way to see what you think is cool but doesn't really do much to help folks actually figure out if a profession will work for them on a deeper level.

Thus Guardian or Necromancer would be the go to. I know you hate meta and stuff but they do have some of the stronger meta builds and while you may dislike it you will be playing against it in WvW and PvP.

I'm not entirely sure if this point was made but the druid being a healer doesn't break the whole "abandonment of the holy trinity trifecta." The druid is not a class but an Elite specialization. The Ranger profession is still capable of being DPS/Healer/Tank. The Elites can specialize in any of those areas or none of those and still keep with the original philosophy. An Elite is only one path, of many, that the Ranger can take. All of the core, basic specializations do the same thing, providing a more focused attention to different aspects of the profession. Elites are just more powerful versions of that with the added benefit of giving you a new weapon.

So while it may be true that the Druid is not what you hoped to be, the Druid itself did not violate the original design philosophy as all it did was allow players who wanted to focus on healing focus on healing. If you want to focus on DPS then you would build the Ranger a different way. They never promised that aspects of a profession wouldn't focus on different areas, only that the professions themselves would not be 100% any one thing. The Elites are honestly too small of a mechanic to make most of them generalist (being able to do all three roles) and be effective. I think the Elementalist and Engineer may be the only professions who can still be anything they want beyond the focus that an Elite brings due to the way kits and Attunements work (ie A Scrapper or Holo could still opt to focus on healing by equipping the Med Kit or hyper focus on DPS by equipping the grenade, explosive, or mortar kits. Flipside Attunements allow the Elementalist to switch roles on the fly in a way that the Druid would never be able to replicate).

In the long run, I think there is always going to be someone who is unhappy with how an Elite might focus any given profession. I saw someone complain a few days back about how Daredevil didn't allow you to wield two swords and how it should have been more of a ninja build (though I think they are waiting to give Thief the ninja build when they do an expansion focused on Cantha).

I bought this game at launch for two reasons, Sylvari and Engineer. I think it has awesome flavor and is great to play. I enjoy both the Holosmith and the Scrapper. I feel both fit the rp feel of the profession. Is it fast to level? That depends on how well you learn it. Engineer is one of the harder professions to master in the game. It's for that reason that I always recommend against boosting an Engineer. A level 80 Engineer is useless if you haven't taken the time to learn it. If you are trying to learn Elites on top of all the kits and toys that the Engineer gets to play with and you have a confusing set of skills that make for an unfun play experience outside of PvE where knowing the professions is critical in doing well in PvP and WvW. Of the two I would agree that Holosmith is the easier Elite to learn but even that would prove frustrating if you don't get the basics of the Engineer. For instance, Engineers don't swap weapons. Instead, they swap kits, very similar in concept to the Elementalist Attunement swapping. The other professions you can weapon swap to a more familiar set of weapons to back yourself up with. Add in remembering to make good use of your toolbelt and well .... frustration ensues at times.

If you seriously want to enjoy Engineer I highly recommend the standard level grind. 80 levels gives you plenty of time to learn how to work toolbelt skills into rotation, play with the kits (flamethrowers are fun but not always the best idea in WvW or PvP).

Though I do agree with starlinvf , posting your opinion upfront likely would have given better direction for discussion.

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I have always loved underwater combat it. It was one of the things that stood out to me when I first got this game after it's launch. It was the first MMO I played that attempted to do that and all things considered, it is one of the better underwater combats I've played in gaming. I mean ..... it's not Mario Brothers .... but what is? I have been hoping for some time that a future expansion or a future Living World episode or two added more underwater and underwater combat. I think I'm one of the few people who kept weapons and gear up to date when it came to underwater combat. All my lvl 80's have Exotic weapons and well .... there are no Exotic breathers but I've gotten the best I can find on TP.