Solori.6025

> @"Levetty.1279" said:

> > @"ThomasC.1056" said:

> >and it's [currently being looked at](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/91447/potential-future-balance-changes-pvp/p1) in PvP, and in WvW. Namely :

> Mechanic changes don't get split. It is going to be nerfed in PvE too due to PvP whine.

> > Two things are to be considered here : mirage cloak offers a big evade uptime,

> It has less evade then the normal dodge it replaces.

>

> If you got those two things wrong why should I read the paragraphs of nerfs you want to slap on the class?

I agree. If you think mirage has big evade uptime I immediately stop taking you seriously. Because you are parroting a talking point that is A LIE. To then make a list of nerfs to a class you don't understand is honestly disrespectful to the people that have been putting forth reasonable well thought post on the same issue. Please understand the class before trying next time.

> @"Cal Cohen.2358" said:

> Hi Everyone,

>

> We’ve done some work on the next balance update and wanted to share some of the potential changes for discussion and feedback. As a reminder, this update is intended to be smaller but more targeted to address major issues within the game mode as we work toward some major changes in a future update. This is also not the full list of changes for the update, just the ones targeted at PvP.

>

> The goal of this update on the competitive side is not to nerf everything that deserves a nerf, but to bring overperforming builds back in line. There are aspects of every meta build (and even some non-meta builds) that could reasonably be nerfed, but since we’re already looking ahead to a major shakeup we’re more focused on balancing around the current power level for now.

>

> In particular we’re looking at:

> * Condi Thief

> * Holosmith

> * Condi Mirage

> * Rampage

> * Warrior’s Cunning

> * Revisiting Staff Thief

>

> **General**

>

> * Sigil of Agility has been removed from the PvP build panel

>

> This came up again as we were looking at holosmith quickness but is something we’ve been considering for a long time. Quickness in general is something that we’re looking at for the future update, but in the short-term we feel that this sigil is too easily accessible for the power it provides.

>

> **Condi Thief**

> The main issue we’re looking to address with condi thief is the initial burst potential. Long term there are definitely questions about how this build is applying conditions, but for now we want to push it more toward a grindy build than a bursty one.

>

> * Spider Venom: Reduced poison duration from 6 seconds to 3 seconds in PvP only

> * Serpent's Touch: Reduced poison stacks from 2 to 1 in PvP only

>

> **Holosmith**

> Holosmith quickness has been a big point of feedback and we’re planning to make some adjustments there. Removing Sigil of Agility was part of this, and we’re also looking at a minor nerf to Kinetic Battery.

>

> This leaves Elixir U. We’re considering a quickness reduction here as well, but are currently leaning toward an interesting change that’s worth discussing. That change being a heavy reduction of the stability granted. The goal of this change is to leave U as the big quickness skill, but also open the door for more counterplay. This would give opportunity to avoid Corona Burst and then CC the holosmith instead of just getting run over by quickness.

>

> * Kinetic Battery: Reduced quickness duration from 5 seconds to 3 seconds in PvP only

> * Elixir U: Reduced stability duration from 6 seconds to 1 second in PvP only

>

>

> **Condi Mirage**

> We understand that Mirage Cloak is a big point of contention and we’ve been having discussions internally, but it isn’t something that we’ll be ready to action for this update. As we get closer to our desired solution we’ll start to talk about it more with you all, but in the meantime we’re looking at some more general changes. Primarily toning down clone generation and reducing some damage potential of staff, pushing it more toward a utility kit.

>

> * Illusionary Counter: Reduced the number of clones spawned on block from 2 to 1 in PvP only

> * Phantasmal Warlock:

> + Reduced the number of warlocks spawned from 2 to 1 in PvP only.

> + Increased the vulnerability applied per hit from 2 stacks to 4 stacks in PvP only

> * Chaos Vortex:

> + Reduced bleed duration from 8 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP only.

> + Reduced burn duration from 2 seconds to 1 second in PvP only.

> + Reduced Torment duration from 8 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP only

>

> **Rampage**

> Rampage has been overperforming since the initial change that brought its cooldown to 90 seconds, and continues to with the cooldown at 120 seconds. Rather than just bumping up the cooldown again, we’re looking to address an underlying issue: hard CC skills also doing large amounts of damage. This is something that we’re looking to do across the board for the future update, and we see Rampage as a good opportunity to see the idea in action.

>

> * Rampage skills have been adjusted as follows

> + Kick: Power coefficient reduced from 1.2 to 0.01 in PvP only

> + Throw Boulder: Power coefficient reduced from 2.0 to 0.01 in PvP only

> + Seismic Leap: Power coefficient reduced from 1.6 to 0.01 in PvP only

>

> **Warrior’s Cunning**

> We’re making an adjustment to bring Warrior’s Cunning more in-line with other damage traits.

>

> * Warrior's Cunning: Reduced damage bonus against targets above 90% health from 25% to 7% in PvP only. Reduced damage bonus against targets with barrier from 50% to 10% in PvP only.

>

> **Staff Thief**

> As mentioned the other day, we want to revisit the recent change to Debilitating Arc for the next balance update. There are still concerns about putting it back to 4 initiative, but it doesn’t really make sense for it to coexist with Vault at 6. We’re reducing the cost to 5 while making some minor adjustments to Quick Pockets and Staff Master.

>

> * Quick Pockets: Reduced initiative gained on weapon swap from 3 to 2 in PvP only

> * Staff Master: Reduced endurance gain per initiative spent from 2 to 1 in PvP only

> * Debilitating Arc: Reduced initiative cost from 6 to 5 in PvP only

>

> Remember that these changes are not locked down and we still have time to iterate. We look forward to your thoughts and feedback.

>

> -The Systems Team

>

...Did you guys test these changes and make sure you didn't completely kill a build, ability, or weapon?

> @"Cal Cohen.2358" said:

Maybe first.

Devs should have an intimate understanding of what EVERY class is capable of.

When I say intimate, I mean like this class shows up in your dreams intimate.

Too often we have seen knee jerk fixes or changes to a class that don't make sense to the people playing, and sometimes these changes are contradictory to the way the class functions or even what the balancing "idea" for that patch tried to achieve.

The Devs first and foremost need to play this game, and understand it to the level that people who have been playing since launch do.

Secondly,

We need to know what a class and spec are supposed to do, down to the trait line, and what the elite specs are supposed to offer.

We then need to know what you want each class to excel at.

Are mesmers supposed to be good at 1v1 but struggle in Xv1?

Are warriors supposed to be good at Xv1 but struggle in a 1v1?

What is your vision for each class in it's role here? What should a class be strong in.

What is a class going to be weak in?

Then lastly,

Uniformity.

Make sure every class fit's in a grand picture, where one class is not dominate on all the others in those roles. That classes sharing a role in pvp have the tools to contest each other fairly. ( so we dont have the issue like we did at launch where matchups with like mesmer v thief was heavily weighted in the thieves favor) and that every role has a weakness.

Every class should be able to be viable. Every class should be able to compete. Every class should be and have meta builds.

Not for one season these 4 classes are good, then the next season these 3 classes are good.

This is a 7 year old MMO, balance and the ability for every class to perform on relatively the same levels across the board should not be a main concern at this point.

TLDR: Devs need to play the game and get intimate with what classes can and can not do ( When devs are able to understand this the hyperbole influence we see in the forums immediately becomes irrelevent because the people gathering feedback will know, it's hyperbole and ignore it)

Devs need to have a clear vision on the strengths and weaknesses for every class and every role. This way when you do change or add something you don't have horrible launch day OP classes like you have had every expansion OR when you destroy a spec like Chrono and make it a horrible shell of awkward mechanics . You can design classes with the bounds they are given and keep them balanced.

Devs need to make sure every class, with additions and nerfs, stay relevant, and fair.

I don't think this is too much to ask, and in my opinion this would and should be the first thing the pvp (and WvW) team considers when making changes.

P.S. Edit:

I want to stress the importance of the first thing.

The devs MUST know these classes, and what they can actually do. They MUST know what is possible and what isn't.

Hopefully this isn't too offensive to get removed again

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > @"Exedore.6320" said:

> > > > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > > It's why a wonder, why would a dev ask for subjective feedback instead of forming more non biased opinions through metrics,statistics, and knowledge of how the classes work.

> > > Because metrics can't tell you whether it's fun to play.

> > >

> > > Players are very good at identifying what frustrates them. They're not as good at identifying why and even less so at fixing it. But the devs first need to know what isn't fun so they can figure out where to start looking for changes.

> >

> > ........" Metrics, statistics, and **knowledge of how the classes work.**"

> > Fun is subjective, and by asking players to identify what they like and dont you are creating an outlook that is mostly biased.

> This is only true until a certain majority of people say that something is or is not fun at which point it starts to become less subjective and more factual. Fun is a part of the game. Some people play for fun for some people fun is winning or having a well fought match win or lose. Fun is indeed subjective and it can be a driving force of what keeps people playing the game.

I stand by what I said then. Since you also acknowledge "fun" being subjective. That you can't use that feedback then as a starting point in balancing talks .

> > That's not how you achieve balance, and I covered most of that in the first post I made in this thread.

> Its not always how you achieve balance but some times its a good place to start. If some one says something is not fun and some one say something is super fun which do you believe? If a majority of people who main many different professions also start to say similar things do you think all of them are just subjective or does it mean that something is clearly an issue. Do you think that a large number of people would make false accusations on the subject of how fun something is? I would say its its very unlikely.

>

> Simply saying its subjective so your statement does not apply to the input of something is not a good way of really looking at it.

> What happens if someone says you telling someone something is subjective is also subjective should we just void out your statement too?

>

> As i told some one else its half and half

> When possible metrics and statistics should be part of it but the other half should consist of client feedback data. Thats why businesses and companies often ask you how a service was to you.

> Say you order a package.

> Looking at metrics data tells the sender that the box got from point A to B.

> It might say how fast it got there and which route it took.

>

> But it does not tell them in the condition of how the box was when it got there or how pleased you were with how fast it got there. Maybe it got there at a bad time leaving your product to sit out all day exposed or maybe it got there quick but not quick enough to your liking.

>

> Subjective feedback is rather important one cannot simply dismiss it as it is a part of balance.

>

>

And once again, I covered this in my first post, people seem to gloss over the bolded part of "Knowledge of how the game works"....Or from my first post in this thread

"Devs should have an intimate understanding of what EVERY class is capable of.

When I say intimate, I mean like this class shows up in your dreams intimate.

Too often we have seen knee jerk fixes or changes to a class that don't make sense to the people playing, and sometimes these changes are contradictory to the way the class functions or even what the balancing "idea" for that patch tried to achieve.

The Devs first and foremost need to play this game, and understand it to the level that people who have been playing since launch do."

If you are relying on players to identify, **WITHOUT BIAS** the things that make a class over-perform you have set the ground for failure. Plain and simple. Even in this thread, you have evidence of that. No one want's to be nerfed further and everyone is pointing fingers at everything BUT what they have.

This is why I said those 3 things are needed.

Too many times player X throws out hyperbole to get player Y's class nerfed.

It always goes like this " Bob plays a class (We'll call it class X) and wants to feel powerful, and be powerful, but bob gets killed by Tim on class Y. Bob could either, go into the game and make class Y and figure out what the strengths and weaknesses are, OR, he could complain about the class. Clearly Bob is a pro and class Y is just broken. So he makes a thread ( OR post in a thread with a dev asking what's fun or not) and decides to complain about everything he doesn't like. Citing that other people don't like it either. For added effect, Bob wiki's every skill and throws them all in, complaining about every effect Class Y has , then going through all the traits and doing the same. Bob creates a franken build that realistically CAN NOT EXIST. Then to put the final touches he creates scenarios in which no class could actually perform. Bob writes this as fact, and everyone that plays class X like bob agree's. This franken build to them exist in reality, and it does exactly what bob says.

Tim and the other people playing class Y try and tell bob what actually happened but then it devolves into a shouting match where insults like " you main the class so you don't get a say" come in.

This entire scenario, if we just stuck with player feedback. Would end up ( and has ended up) with a class being stripped of multiple tools it needs to function at a competitive level across multiple builds. It generates dead builds because they have been cried about repeatedly.

This can not continue, and is unhealthy.

The Devs MUST know how to pull apart fiction from fact.

The devs need to play this game first, **The devs must understand this system and game first**, the devs need have to have every statistic, and metric first, before gathering feedback where players can't even be bothered to complain about specific aspects of a class and create these out of reality things and then complain about it.

Edit: ALSO if they devs understood how this game worked, how classes worked, and how they fit in the grand picture of this game. We wouldn't have things like Launch day scourge, deadeye, mirage, spellbreaker, holosmith, weaver, renegade, etc. This is more than a numbers game, I acknowledge that. But changes like these tell me that in a grand picture for balance their was little or no vision. That needs to change like yesteryear.

> @"Exedore.6320" said:

> > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > It's why a wonder, why would a dev ask for subjective feedback instead of forming more non biased opinions through metrics,statistics, and knowledge of how the classes work.

> Because metrics can't tell you whether it's fun to play.

>

> Players are very good at identifying what frustrates them. They're not as good at identifying why and even less so at fixing it. But the devs first need to know what isn't fun so they can figure out where to start looking for changes.

........" Metrics, statistics, and **knowledge of how the classes work.**"

Fun is subjective, and by asking players to identify what they like and dont you are creating an outlook that is mostly biased.

That's not how you achieve balance, and I covered most of that in the first post I made in this thread.

> @"NorthernRedStar.3054" said:

> It's truly rich.

>

> Warriors, mesmers, thieves, engineers and guardians all pointing fingers at one another.

>

> "You're the one playing the anti-fun spec, not me!"

>

> When in reality, everything - on top of some fundamental changes - needs nerfs.

It's why a wonder, why would a dev ask for subjective feedback instead of forming more non biased opinions through metrics,statistics, and knowledge of how the classes work. This thread is basically people acting like that old meme " Rock is OP, Paper is fine..sincerely Scissors"

> @"ROMANG.1903" said:

> You can't just repeat the post for others classes mechanics and act like you've made a point.

When suggestions are super terrible people parody that post. Hence why people are taking your post and applying it to other classes.

In parody.

> @"Ragnar.4257" said:

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > @"NorthernRedStar.3054" said:

> > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > > 1) Condi Mirage

> > > > 2) Rampage sb/core/tactics war

> > > > 3) Reaper/Core necro

> > > >

> > > > 2 and 3 have easy access to 25 might and can often win fights by landing some lucky crit of 7k+ regardless of level of toughness

> > > >

> > > > 1...does not need introduction

> > > >

> > > > Core necro...the fear/boon rip chain can be extremely hard to deal with, close to impossible in some case, you just get condi bombed/feared to death

> > >

> > > Idk fam, despite all their boon rip and might and quickness uptime, it'd take me much more to list necromancer or any of its specs here. Too telegraphed, lacks mobility to hang with thieves, holo and mesmers.

> >

> > where did the meme of mirage having good mobility came from ? very curious I am

>

> You don't think that Blink, Phase Retreat, Illusionary Ambush and 2x Jaunt counts as good mobility? In terms of vertical mobility, only thief can hope to keep up.

In terms of horizontal mobility (which is where you fight most classes) no...

Basically. If you want to have fun in this game and not have to worry about changing your gear and spec every balance patch.

Play Guardian, Warrior, or Engineer. The rate of changes that these specs have is far less than others and they are nerfed (historically) far less. Mesmer and thief are usually specs that see more changes due to QQ. Classes that see really bad changes (often) because the devs don't know what they are doing 90% of the time - Mesmer,Thief, Ranger, Necro and (IIRC) Rev

TLDR: You are better off on a Warrior or Guardian. Save yourself a headache down the line.

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> > > > @"Jables.4659" said:

> > > > > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > > > Honestly OP, people would rather not have to think when they pvp. If it cant be button mashed to death then it is too good.

> > > > > Like as soon as a profession makes you have to think, it's immediately OP and needs to be gutted. It's why in 2019 we still have people complaining about clones.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > This is kind of hilarious coming from someone with a scourge avatar.

> > >

> > > And this is why conclusions should not be made based on avatars. Solori isn't a Scourge "main". He was meming.

> >

> > I'm just happy people are still falling for it :D. Says a lot about people that do

>

> Bruh, are you still lurking in... in dis dead gaem?:D

I check the forums every now and then hoping that something changes for the better (and my fiance and I do story stuff when it is released).

I'm usually disappointed or amused. In this case I was more amused :D

> @"kraai.7265" said:

> because the gw2 we loved was made by a whole different group of people, the ones who took their places don't even understand how this game works, and how to make it better, it's like if you build a house for someone, later you get fired, and a new constructor gets to finish it, only your language was english and this new constructor speaks french, forget it gw2 as we loved it will never come back

>

> want proof? check wvw dev streams, see how those guys play, they are horrible at it, look at arenanet vs streamers pvp matches, they don't even know how to properly play a game they are balancing...

>

This. Even M.Obrien jumped ship. If you expect meaningful and impactful balance that makes sense. This is the wrong game now.

> @"Dante.1508" said:

> I've just returned after 4 years and well Mesmers are now terrible? Isn't the whole point of being a mesmer to have your illusions defend you as you are so squishy you don't die?... Well somewhere in this last 4 years Mesmers illusions have become useless.

>

> The illusions do nothing to stop enemies attacking you, they do so little damage and the hold no agro, so what exactly is their point these days, i can be the furthest away from an enemy and it will instantly attack me totally ignore my illusions and after what seems like an age maybe one illusion might! take an enemy off me.. chances are extremely slim though..

>

> Back 4 years ago mesmers illusions were working perfectly! What happened?

Phantasm's were reworked and now work differently.

But immediately afterwards many things that made mesmer viable were quickly nerfed due to the non-stop whining that plagued the forums.

Raiders thought chrono was too strong, chrono was nerfed.

PvP'ers thought Mesmer as a whole was too strong, The entire class including especs were nerfed.

The new game is whine until it gets nerfed. If enough people do it everyday, you'll see something change.

> @"breno.5423" said:

> > @"Redead.3016" said:

> > 4.) Listen to your player base and stop trying to be the the next E-Sports. More focus on fun and less focus on E-Sports would improve the game.

>

> I had liked your post, but gave up after read this 4th topic.

> What the kitten you trying to say there? "Stop focusing on competitiveness and make pvp casual"? It simply contradicted the rest of the post.

Yea I was for everything until I got here as well.

Arenanet should take most feedback from players with a grain of salt in regards to balancing decisions.

Because everyone has an agenda, and everything that people don't like they complain about it. It's why pvp balance is in this garbage state now.

Yes they should focus on Esports, or at least balance like they are still in it. Making things accessible to the lowest rank of pvp doesnt promote it. It makes things worse.

Like every time they launch a new E-spec. Those changes weren't made with pvp in mind, and they certainly weren't made to make pvp competitive or fun.

Then we have the post launch crybabies.

How many times has a class seen nerfs in all the wrong places?

You can thank the "Knowledgeable Community" for those.

Arena-net needs to play the game, balance like they are trying to make a *Competitive* pvp environment ( not this casual cryfest we have now where people go " Whaaaa, the thief hit me with condi it OP" or " WHaaaaAAa the mesmer has clones my head hurts it OP" or "WHAAAaAA I got hit by a skill that is countered by me not spamming one" and then Anet nerfs based on those cry post) and stop balancing based on the lowest and most casual denominator of skill.

> @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> > @"Jables.4659" said:

> > > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > Honestly OP, people would rather not have to think when they pvp. If it cant be button mashed to death then it is too good.

> > > Like as soon as a profession makes you have to think, it's immediately OP and needs to be gutted. It's why in 2019 we still have people complaining about clones.

> > >

> >

> > This is kind of hilarious coming from someone with a scourge avatar.

>

> And this is why conclusions should not be made based on avatars. Solori isn't a Scourge "main". He was meming.

I'm just happy people are still falling for it :D. Says a lot about people that do

> @"Multicolorhipster.9751" said:

> > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > > > @"Multicolorhipster.9751" said:

> > >

> > > > This is some serious _Miragesplaining™_. To call their vigor uptime low and compare their evades to necro is beyond ludicrous. Makes me question the legitimacy, even.

> > > > 5s from False Oasis

> > > > 5s From critical infusion(Here we've already matched bountiful theft in duration, and this comes from two different sources rather than just one)

> > > > 5s With Chaotic Interruption RNG(No internal CD btw) or 8s Guaranteed with Bountiful Disillusionment

> > > > 12s max with Nomad's Endurance

> > > >

> > > > They actually have some of, if not the very highest vigor uptime in the current meta, surpassed only by Holo/Engi(Maybe? Probably not, in all honesty.)

> > > >

> > > > Scepter 2 not only blocks, but has evade frames as well.

> > > > I'll be modest and go along with you not counting Distortion, even though at one point in the game's history it literally counted as evades rather than invulns.

> > > >

> > > > On top of all that, they get mirrors like you say; which essentially act as an extra dodge, because even if it's being used offensively; it still grants evades to you and the other 3 yous. They also, as mentioned before; can use their evades in situations where DD's couldn't. And personally I don't see the use in dodges being "more mobile" when they are being used offensively as well as defensively. That seems like a completely contrived excuse.

> > > >

> > > > **So yeah, even with DD's 3 endurance bars, crazy refill, and evades tied to skills, i'm no less convinced they can't not manage to evade more than CI Mirages.**

> > >

> > > Bold statement is flat out wrong. Back around season 9 - 12 players calculated the evasion/block/invuln uptime between mirage and DD including vigor.

> > > DD had more, and this was BEFORE the nerfs. Even if DD was to lose out, DD still had more on demand evasion compared to Mirage's uptime, a lot of it btw being tied to things like Mirrors, which I'll get to. Try to remember that was with the increased evade duration on mirage cloak

> > >

> > > I'm not going to count random instances of RNG, you could hypotethically steal a boon and get it. Besides power builds don't typically go down Chaos line.

> > >

> > > so 5s from False Oasis

> > > 5s from Critical infusion

> > Because this tells me you went to the wiki and didn't bother to actually read the skill.

> >

> > Critical infusion gives 3 seconds of vigor not 5

>

> Actually that's my bad. I'm the one who told them it was 5 seconds first.

>

> Honest mistake, yeah?

I don't buy that line anymore. Sorry.

There are too many resources that you can double check your numbers from. Even the game itself.

If you are going to complain about something and paint it in the most negative light that you can ( like in your first post) then you need to be accurate.

No other class main would accept inaccuracies when someone is complaining about their class.

Especially when they try and make a detailed argument as to why a class is or is not too strong.

And people do it continually to the mesmer. As if mesmer mains don't already have to prove that all the hyperbole and misinformation surrounding the class is just that.

Please don't add to the problem.

*Research- Articulate- Then hit the post button.*

I swear I'm not asking too much.

>The CI Mirage build on Metabattle is where you go to find what skills/traits they're using,

Trusting meta battle is your first mistake.

I remember when for one of the power mirage builds it listed a mirage as having both the blind on shatter trait AND the reflect on dodge trait.

And people honestly thought you could have both of those at the same time.

They both shared the same master tier.

Having them both was literally impossible.

>then you go to the wiki and without seeing the patch notes, you're immediately shown the same number.

In a big pink box at the top of that traits page

" This trait is split between game modes — select one to view:"

You literally cant miss that.

> I don't imagine they'd take it very seriously to begin with.

Has it not been proven enough.

This dev team in charge of balance is incompetent. Period.

They cave to forum QQ.

They have been doing so for over a year.

Most recent victim of that was Soulbeast with the Sic' Em QQ.

Scrapper as well.

So don't think you hold no weight here. Especially dealing with a dev team that has never touched half of the classes and balances with a dart board.

> @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > @"Multicolorhipster.9751" said:

>

> > This is some serious _Miragesplaining™_. To call their vigor uptime low and compare their evades to necro is beyond ludicrous. Makes me question the legitimacy, even.

> > 5s from False Oasis

> > 5s From critical infusion(Here we've already matched bountiful theft in duration, and this comes from two different sources rather than just one)

> > 5s With Chaotic Interruption RNG(No internal CD btw) or 8s Guaranteed with Bountiful Disillusionment

> > 12s max with Nomad's Endurance

> >

> > They actually have some of, if not the very highest vigor uptime in the current meta, surpassed only by Holo/Engi(Maybe? Probably not, in all honesty.)

> >

> > Scepter 2 not only blocks, but has evade frames as well.

> > I'll be modest and go along with you not counting Distortion, even though at one point in the game's history it literally counted as evades rather than invulns.

> >

> > On top of all that, they get mirrors like you say; which essentially act as an extra dodge, because even if it's being used offensively; it still grants evades to you and the other 3 yous. They also, as mentioned before; can use their evades in situations where DD's couldn't. And personally I don't see the use in dodges being "more mobile" when they are being used offensively as well as defensively. That seems like a completely contrived excuse.

> >

> > **So yeah, even with DD's 3 endurance bars, crazy refill, and evades tied to skills, i'm no less convinced they can't not manage to evade more than CI Mirages.**

>

> Bold statement is flat out wrong. Back around season 9 - 12 players calculated the evasion/block/invuln uptime between mirage and DD including vigor.

> DD had more, and this was BEFORE the nerfs. Even if DD was to lose out, DD still had more on demand evasion compared to Mirage's uptime, a lot of it btw being tied to things like Mirrors, which I'll get to. Try to remember that was with the increased evade duration on mirage cloak

>

> I'm not going to count random instances of RNG, you could hypotethically steal a boon and get it. Besides power builds don't typically go down Chaos line.

>

> so 5s from False Oasis

> 5s from Critical infusion

Because this tells me you went to the wiki and didn't bother to actually read the skill.

Critical infusion gives 3 seconds of vigor not 5

> @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> Critical Infusion is 3sec

> Nomads is 1.5 sec per shatter

> CI random proc is 5sec

> False oasis 5sec

>

> Most importantly, you've to spec 3 traits dedicated to vigor.

> More than half of professions can attain perma-vigor with 1 or 2 traits.

>

> So yeah, complaining about "evade spam" on mirage is dumb. But whatever, still the same tactic as ever, tell a lie 1000 times so it becomes a truth.

^ Quoting pve numbers to paint a false picture, like lincoln said. it's dumb, and we have had this conversation 1000 times over where we have had to correct the blatant lie because people just hate mesmer.

This is why nothing that needs fixing ever gets fixed. Because of people that just cry for no reason, quote misinformation, then try and defend lies as facts.

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> Holosmith hasn't received any serious nerfs since December of last year. All is right with the world.

>

> There's a lot of confusing patch notes in here though.

>

> Engineer

> Overload: Overloading now disables all toolbelt skills for its duration.

>

> What is an Overload? Does this mean Overheat?

>

> Mesmer

> Illusions: The illusion counter that tracks clones now decrements immediately when a shatter is cast rather than waiting for the clones to be destroyed.

> Speed of Sand: Instead of granting superspeed when dodging, this trait instead causes Mirage Cloak to grant +66% movement speed.

>

> Does this mean Mirage loses out on the distance it can travel in mirage cloak if suffering cripple or chilled?

Yes.

For the mirage question. Superspeed gave mirage a brief immunity to those effects,that immunity is now gone.

And those effects are still spammable on some classes. It also nerfs the distance a mirage can dodge since superspeed gave 100% (?) and now it's down to 66. Soooooo

Yea.. Good luck trying to get out of any AoE

> @"LadyKitty.6120" said:

> > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > Yet another huge nerf to Mesmer in removing the Chronomancer as one of the clones.

> >

> > Portal for thieves? There is no longer a **SINGLE THING** that makes the Mesmer class unique... every single unique skill and ability has been removed.

>

> Except that scourges already have had Sand Swell-portal since PoF, though it had much more limited range, it wasn't as visible and it was also limited to valid paths. Portal for thieves is actually a rather good thing when it comes to raiding as thief will become a viable alternative to chrono for portaling in escort (and possibly other bosses where it could be useful). And though there will now be 3 classes with portal-ability, mesmer still has lots of hardly replaceable utilities that other classes would need to be special-built for, like Feedback (FB's Courage-tome has too long CD in comparison), quickness+alacrity output in same class, some of the best tanking abilities (as convenient combo of channeled evasions and blocks which require some niche builds to be even remotely achieveable by other classes), massive amounts of CC, accurate pulls with largest radius, boonstrip, aegis-share, boon extension, stealths...and there's more. Only herald and firebrand get even half of these things while mesmer/chrono gets most of them in one build if needed.

> And ofc mirage doesn't get any major damage nerfs and thus continues its supreme dps sovereignty at 4-5 raid bosses and since everyone still wants chronos as the supports (very few accept firebrigade even now), it's not uncommon to see 6/10 of the squad being mesmers at those bosses.

>

> So please tell how mesmer has been nerfed a lot and how it now can be replaced by other classes since it doesn't have unique skills and abilities.

LMAO

I never thought I would see the day where someone actually hates mesmer because it pve's too good

HAHAHAHAHA

> @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:

>the defense-focused Elusive Mind.

>

Proving once again that you either are clueless as to the state of this trait, or you know how useless it is now and just want to rub salt on the wound.

Either way.

Not cool, and I'm glad this game is no longer on my radar for pvp

> @"ZhouX.8742" said:

> > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > @"ZhouX.8742" said:

> > > > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > > > @"Chorazin.4107" said:

> > > > > How the kitten did this thread arise with Holosmiths running around?

> > > >

> > > > A soulbeast main got mad that someone said his 2 shot pew pew build was doing too much unblockable damage so he made a thread targeting mes and Rev to distract from the fact soulbeast globals someone from 1800r.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Except he's actually a good player with valid points lol

> > >

> > > I mean let's be real he would probably kitten on you with most classes regardless of the class he mains so what's your point?

> >

> > If the point was too hard for you to understand they have online english classes for you.

> > I stated what the point of the thread was. I don't care if he was a World Tournament player. He made the thread in spite. It's pretty obvious given the OP and the unranked screen shot to try and prove a point.

> > If you wish to debate the points he made. Go back to page 1 and reply to any of the counter points.

> > If you wish to sit here and make pointless attacks on my person for calling out why the thread is made without giving any actual feedback then be my guest. Reply and continue.

> > I don't have the energy to go back and forth with some random whose first response is " Nah ah he'll beat you he better" like some kind of neanderthal.

>

> The point is he's a much better player explaining valid points to you that you want to fail to understand because you're too blinded by ... what? That scourge was nerfed repeatedly?

>

Mhmm...still riding that horse yea?

Also ,Yay someone was dumb enough to make an assumption based on an avatar

It's why I changed it, so thanks for that :D

> **_Let's take class bias out of the equation here and focus on the facts._**

>

Go to page 1-5 then. People pretty much presented facts even through the outrageous claims made by the OP..

Since you obviously failed to read the thread in its entirety let me quote the summary for you.

> @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> So we began with all mesmers who can't land the burst are bad, burst is easy to land 100% of times, mesmers should get nerfed.

> And now we are with only mur can one shot me if I don't see him coming because I'm awesome rank 2 and trash all those op mesmers, nerf mesmers still.

> @"praqtos.9035" said:

> So we came to a source of this rant... Finally ... A perfectly executed burst by a very good player... IF YOU DONT KNOW HE IS COMING.....

> So basically admit all your "cant LoS,cant dodge,cant block and only invul saves you" is nothing but to make your "agument" looks better? While also 100% confirmed my first post of the thread.

> You just buried yourself with your own words

> @"ZhouX.8742" said:

> > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > @"Chorazin.4107" said:

> > > How the kitten did this thread arise with Holosmiths running around?

> >

> > A soulbeast main got mad that someone said his 2 shot pew pew build was doing too much unblockable damage so he made a thread targeting mes and Rev to distract from the fact soulbeast globals someone from 1800r.

> >

>

> Except he's actually a good player with valid points lol

>

> I mean let's be real he would probably kitten on you with most classes regardless of the class he mains so what's your point?

If the point was too hard for you to understand they have online english classes for you.

I stated what the point of the thread was. I don't care if he was a World Tournament player. He made the thread in spite. It's pretty obvious given the OP and the unranked screen shot to try and prove a point.

If you wish to debate the points he made. Go back to page 1 and reply to any of the counter points.

If you wish to sit here and make pointless attacks on my person for calling out why the thread is made without giving any actual feedback then be my guest. Reply and continue.

I don't have the energy to go back and forth with some random whose first response is " Nah ah he'll beat you he better" like some kind of neanderthal.

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > > @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > > @"Chorazin.4107" said:

> > > > > > How the kitten did this thread arise with Holosmiths running around?

> > > > >

> > > > > Holo can't be OP because Holo loses to Holo depending on who has stab.

> > > > Holo loses to a lot of matchups... Fire weaver...and ....emm...holo vs holo depends on who has the stab © - Guess who said that on previous monthly

> > > > Okay thats not really about the mesmer now :D

> > >

> > > Holosmith: Being an easy spec means that all kind of players will abuse it.....**skill level in a matchup is a thing**

> > You must be genius! /s

> > Lets assume holo facerollers by default are way more skilled than others ?:D

> > Justify spec being broken asf because in mirror matchup it wins itself?

>

> The more I read the forum...the more I realize how lost is its userbase, I was not referring to holo vs holo but..whatever. ....I still don't understand how people can spend all day on the forum asking for nerfs left and right....do people think that Anet will sit and say : "ok let's nerf to the ground everything so that Mister X can win always 1v1 and against everything from now till the end of times"....lol ridiculous as it sounds I am starting to think that's the case.

>

> One thing I have always wished to see is those asking for nerfs being forced to play the target of their cries...and except them to reach top positions in all modes within months, with videos showcases of them facing skilled players on other professions...would they fail to do so...I would punish them, **may they stop believe to be all knowing masters of the universe** lol

.....Arent you the same person who made " nerf mirage and holo" threads? And a scourge complaint thread? Pot calling kettle.

> @"Chorazin.4107" said:

> How the kitten did this thread arise with Holosmiths running around?

A soulbeast main got mad that someone said his 2 shot pew pew build was doing too much unblockable damage so he made a thread targeting mes and Rev to distract from the fact soulbeast globals someone from 1800r.

> @"Xstein.2187" said:

> > @"Hylo.1968" said:

> > > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > > @"Hylo.1968" said:

> > > > > @"Sampson.2403" said:

> > > > > Technically the full burstis 9 cooldowns which is why it's a total bummer if you miss it:

> > > > >

> > > > > The Prestige -> Blink -> Mirror Blade -> Diversion -> Power Spike-> Jaunt -> Mind Wrack -> Mind Stab

> > > >

> > > > not every build uses torch off hand, also why would you use jaunt after blink? ?

> > >

> > > ......for the clone. ....and not using torch means this build is as predictable as a GS warrior.

> >

> > wasting cds to burst just for a clone... just no

>

> Against good opponents, you need to cover your burst or make sure they don't know of you. If you do this, you are using basically all your good great sword skills, your whole secondary off hand weapon since torch since phantasmal mage is a condi skill, your 'special action' keys that come with your profession, and 2 of your utility skills.

>

> At this point, if your opponent dodges most of the damage, you are already at a **HUGE** cool down disadvantage to the point where you need to know you can fully outplay them or simply move on to a different spot on the map. You are already at a massive cool down disadvantage and know the opponent is at the very least going to control the point until your cool downs come back again, giving the other team points.

>

> This is why using one of your Jaunts has been used to gain an extra clone in mirage burst builds.

> There are even guides posted on youtube showing this strategy.

> (disclaimer: the focus build shorts used is NOT a burst build)

>

> The reason is simple, at that point, its better to take the risk. Unless they are low on health or cool downs to begin with, you are likely not going to kill them without using an additional clone in your burst. The reason is simple: on one clone mind wrack, the clone does 306 damage if it explodes on you. In a two clone mind wrack, each clone does 426 damage, and there are two of them. 306 is much smaller than 852.

>

> What is actually more of a disadvantage in this situation isn't that you are using another cool down. It is that you are adding at least 1/2 a second to your burst since jaunt has a 1/2 sec activation time alone. This is just another reason why you either have to cover your burst or make sure the opponent doesn't know you are there because if they do dodge, they now DO know you are there and they have a massive advantage on you in terms of cool downs.

>

>

Thank you for explaining this, cause I wasn't. I was just going to link video guides and tell him/her to self educate. Especially if they are going to give an opinion about a subject they ( now obviously) don't know about.

> @"Hylo.1968" said:

> > @"Sampson.2403" said:

> > Technically the full burstis 9 cooldowns which is why it's a total bummer if you miss it:

> >

> > The Prestige -> Blink -> Mirror Blade -> Diversion -> Power Spike-> Jaunt -> Mind Wrack -> Mind Stab

>

> not every build uses torch off hand, also why would you use jaunt after blink? ?

......for the clone. ....and not using torch means this build is as predictable as a GS warrior.