Einlanzer.1627

This was another one of Colin's very questionable decisions that has been maintained for no good reason, and it's long past time it be reversed. Dungeons are really a very important part of the MMORPG experience, and neither FoTM nor raids can fully compensate for a lack of regular in-world dungeons because the latter lacks the accessibility and the small-team camaraderie and the former lacks context-based immersion with the ability to add real depth to the world.

HoT and PoF were both hurt by the fact that they had no dungeons whatsoever. Think about how cool something like a Cave of Wonders style dungeon somewhere in the crystal desert would have been. I actually think they put too much effort into open world at this point, and need to shift some resources to instance content. Having 2-3 new full size zones with fun metas and 2 new dungeons in a LW season would make a lot more sense than having 6 small zones with competing metas - some of which are much better than others.

Yeah - wasn't surprised in the slightest when they said they were reworking Herald instead of core Rev since the team seems to be incapable of making the right decisions with these things. The chief criticism of Herald was always that it felt like it "completed" the class rather than providing an alternate way to play it since core Rev was so lacking. That's at odds with how every other class is designed.

These changes just reinforce that more when they should mitigated it by fixing core Revenant.

I think they still need to refine their expansion model. While i loved what PoF did have, it was fairly light on new content for an expansion - we need new dungeons, weapons, classes/races, and lots of system updates. Masteries need more refinement; the elite spec system has practical limits (though I think one more for each class would be ideal before they try something new), and we need a bit of renewed focus on guilds. We should probably start seeing some form of phasing, allowing for story-based updates to old zones, and a real effort to restore at least the meat of LW1 back into the game so there's not such a jarring disconnect in the game's narrative.

So, I'm okay with more focus on LW for the short term while they work through those things and figure out what direction they're going in. Especially if it means getting more robust content and system updates in the next expansion compared to what was in HoT and PoF.

Staffs were barely touched, and control is still too weak for how squishy Ele is. They don't really need damage, they need better control.

A change has been needed for a long time, so I'm excited to see it happen. A couple of questions/thoughts I have surrounding the balancing paradigms -

there's been a lot of power creep in the game with virtually no improvements to active or passive defense. I think most of the culprit revolves around the gradual buffing of conditions and boon sharing. IMO, it's too easy/reliable to get 25 stacks of might and 100% uptime on boons like fury and alacrity. Defensive boons as well as defensive stats and/or baseline health need to be improved, or offensive buffs and damage needs to be nerfed.

conditions being given longer duration was IMO the wrong way to balance them. With GW2's active combat system, they really should have short durations and just do less base damage considering a.) they are improved dramatically by a single attribute, and b.) they ignore armor. I think that the game is too dependent on condi cleanse due to conditions being overbuffed, and it makes the whole balance feel sort of unstable.

Core Rev needs changes more than either Herald or Renegade, IMO.

It doesn't really matter. They need to do it. Spears are too iconic a fantasy weapon to not have them available on land, and the skins already exist for God's sake. We need new weapons at this point anyway.

New animations are a non-issue since those have to be created anyway for new skills gained by new elite specs.

I actually think Harpoon guns should be converted to Crossbows for land use and Tridents could just be an alternate staff type for casters.

To be honest, it kind of blows my mind that this hasn't already been done given how limited UW content in the game is.

I don't main Ele, but even as a casual observer I can see a number of problems, most of which apply to both PvE and PvP -

They have worst armor and health and, unlike a number of other classes, have very few ways of mitigating damage. Every time I play my Ele solo all I do is die constantly, which is not really a problem I have with other classes. The thief is pretty similar but is saved by things like SoM, Invigorating Precision, and lots of dodges. Eles are desperately in need of better evading, stealth, barrier, or (my favorite option) **much more potent control effects built into their toolset to offset their terrible natural attrition.** This would also help give them a more specialized group role instead of just "damage", which I don't think is the right way to design the Ele.

Another very obvious issue is that the staff autos (other than fire) have always felt way too weak for their effects. Fire is basically the only worthwhile fallback attunement unless you are in a specialized role in a group. I don't see the point of that, especially since it becomes so thematically limiting. Air, Earth, and Water autos along with Lightning Surge all need significant buffs or to just be redesigned IMO. The animations on them are pretty weaksauce anyway.

I would complain about condition removal, but I honestly think it's more an issue with the design of conditions than it is with the design of Eles (the balance team has messed up making conditions both too strong and too easy to get rid of, which just wrecks the game's balance in a lot of ways). Although, if that isn't going to change, they need better access to it.

> @"starlinvf.1358" said:

> > @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > > @"Gihn.1043" said:

> > > thats true, rev shouldnt get ahead of itself before fixing bugs like this first. but since its starting to do so well (damage/support wise) in pve, and terrain is more a pvp/wvw issue, it may not get the attention it needs

> >

> > I think it's worth pushing for a redesign **before** addressing issues like that, honestly, otherwise, the redesign will probably never happen.

>

> The argument is whether or not a Rework would be needed if those skills actually functioned correctly (aka reliably). If a skill is unreliable, but highly effective when it does work, then you one would assume the problem isn't with the skill's effects. Consider how they been balancing meteor show on Ele. The hit probability of individual meteors is fairly low, and window of opportunity small for mobile targets (pvp/wvw). So to make up for that each meteor does high damage to maintain it as a serious threat. But then you have immobile targets, and large hit boxes, which greatly increases the probability of multiple strikes.... and with it, the damage potential skyrockets. Its the only skill in the game that relies both damage AND probability to accomplish its goal of Area Denial (NOT dps); and exemplifies why trying to balance around probability in a game as fast, and on such a tight margin as this game, is riddled with problems.

>

> If they were to change the reliability and role of meteor shower to make it a damage tool, suddenly a whole different set of logic starts to apply to it. If it isn't clear at this point, "why put the effort into a total rework, which may not even address the real problem (see Deadeye Marks), if you can't even gauge the effectiveness of the skill due to an inconsistency?".

> The argument is whether or not a Rework would be needed if those skills actually functioned correctly (aka reliably). >

The answer is unequivocally yes, because it's not an issue of individual skills not working well, it's an issue of the class being hamstrung and pigeonholed by odd design choices that can't be fixed by reworking individual skills - for example, providing very limited build customization in a game designed around horizontal progression, and having legend swapping and then giving each legend a highly specific role with limited synergy with other legends.

> @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> > > @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > > > @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> > > > > @"Jski.6180" said:

> > > > > > @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> > > > > > Stats are ok. Its the power creep that is the problem.

> > > > >

> > > > > Saying that not going to make it go away what should be done is to use stats update as a means of dealing with power creep.

> > > > >

> > > > > The ideal of "its power creep" being the end all be all argument used is not going to fix any thing nor will it move the talk forward at all. At best its just a means of trying to end a talk. There IS no going back from power creep once its added at best you can only work with the power creep. Updating stats is the end all be all to making power creep both attk and def not as bad.

> > > > >

> > > > > You need to update all of the stats numbers to make this work.

> > > >

> > > > But there is nothing wrong with them. I really don't understand how is this a problem.

> > > >

> > > > Defensive stats should not matter as much as offensive ones. Period. As I said earlier:

> > > > **There is no alternative to offence, you either damage the foe, or you don't. But you can avoid the damage, if you don't you have toughness or vitality to soak up some of it.**

> > >

> > > If they don't matter as much, then they should be removed. Period. Even then, we'd still have a lot of other problems to address.

> >

> > What? Why? In PvE, people going full glass are usually confident with their reflexes, so they go full glass. If somebody thinks they can't dodge/block/invuln/evade mobs in HoT for example, the game offers you Marauder's gear, Soldier's gear, Rabid gear, Carrion gear, Trailblazer gear... there are tons of them. You are exaggerating.

>

> Exactly. The OP is making a mistake common to complaints on the forums about stats. The mistake is in assuming that every stat needs to be useful in every context, and to a wide range of players. The truth is that as long as a stat -- or a stat prefix -- is useful to some players in some context, its existence is justified.

Wrong. I am asserting that _basic offense and defense stats_ should be useful in the most common context, which is open world PvE. Everything else should be balanced from there.

I don't see how it's anything but common sense that offense should have a higher floor and a lower ceiling than defensive in terms of how it is affected by stats due to the nature of offense vs defense - specifically how offensive helps your defense while defense undermines your offense. If anything, the mechanics of the game are designed in way that makes the opposite is true, which makes zero sense and leads to a meta that is way over-heavily skewed toward sacrificing defense for more offense.

By this reasoning, most if not all offensive stats and boons are overtuned while most if not all defensive stats are undertuned.

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > Just because you don't think there's anything wrong with them doesn't mean there's not anything wrong with them. I profoundly disagree with you. If they were fine, Celestial would be the most desired set for solo play due to its versatility. But it sucks.

> Celestial _was_ one of the most important stats in SPvP, up to the point it was used in almost every build, remember? That's why it got removed from there. And in PvE, it is indeed the most versatile. Only, you don't _need_ versatile. You need builds that are very good at something, and celestial, while not the worst at anything, isn't good at anything specific either. For every role there is a better stat combination - and in game where it's easy to respec, you don't need gearsets for _everything_. It's far better to carry few specialized sets for different occasions.

>

> > @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> >

> > If they don't matter as much, then they should be removed. Period. Even then, we'd still have a lot of other problems to address.

> They matter a lot in PvP. And in PvE are useful in some types of content where you _need_ that tanking/damage sponge role (great for hand kiting at Deimos, for example). The truth (which you refuse to acknowledge) is that both toughness and vitality are actually _very good_ at what they do. It's just what they do is not needed in 90% of PvE content.

>

> But no, they shouldn't be removed, because there's always that remaining 10%.

>

> Unless of course you overhaul the whole stat system and remove _all_ of them, going back to the original design idea from GW1.

> (but that one just isn't going to happen, it would be just way too massive amount of work for Anet to ever decide to do it, short of GW3)

I don't PvP that much, but other people in this thread have noted they are undertuned in PvP as well.

> @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> > @"Jski.6180" said:

> > > @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> > > Stats are ok. Its the power creep that is the problem.

> >

> > Saying that not going to make it go away what should be done is to use stats update as a means of dealing with power creep.

> >

> > The ideal of "its power creep" being the end all be all argument used is not going to fix any thing nor will it move the talk forward at all. At best its just a means of trying to end a talk. There IS no going back from power creep once its added at best you can only work with the power creep. Updating stats is the end all be all to making power creep both attk and def not as bad.

> >

> > You need to update all of the stats numbers to make this work.

>

> But there is nothing wrong with them. I really don't understand how is this a problem.

>

> Defensive stats should not matter as much as offensive ones. Period. As I said earlier:

> **There is no alternative to offence, you either damage the foe, or you don't. But you can avoid the damage, if you don't you have toughness or vitality to soak up some of it.**

If they don't matter as much, then they should be removed. Period. Even then, we'd still have a lot of other problems to address.

Yep. This is solid.

Considering you can't get duplicates, I think the random skins and the mount bundle skins are pretty reasonably priced and probably sell a lot. Buying a specific skin for 3x or buying a "premium" skin for 2000 gems is very much overpriced, and I can't imagine they sell that many of them. I consider them overpriced for the following reasons:

a.) there are now 6 different mounts, and umpteen different buyable skins for each mount. Charging a premium for a mount skin only really works if it's the minority of skins available and you're able to use that mount pretty exclusively if you want.

b.) no additional skins are available through in-game rewards. Charging a premium for a mount skin really only works if they are a supplemental rather than a primary way of obtaining new skins.

c.) even though the game's business model is based on microtransactions, the BLS already monetizes so much crap that it's getting a little ridiculous even if you dismiss mount skins. The more different things they try to monetize, the more it's likely to undermine their gem sales as people do not have unlimited money to spend on a game and will eventually get frustrated enough to stop buying anything.

Now, I'm familiar with O'Brien's explanation for the pricing, but, honestly, I just don't really buy it. I think to some extent they are self-sabotaging by charging more than they should.

Axe used to be more useful than OH Sword, but since they reworked OH Sword there's little reason to use Axe instead. Axe synergizes with Mace/Mallyx much more than with Shiro/Sword. #4 and #5 are both better on OH Sword than on Axe since the rework.

While I really like OH Sword now, it kind of sucks how much Rev weapons are lacking in versatility. Like I've mentioned in other threads, I'd love to see MH Axe get added to core so Revs have a hybrid power/condi option that could work as an alternative for either build type or, optimally, for a hybrid Viper setup.

> @"Haishao.6851" said:

> How many time a year do you repeat this thread?

>

a. Once maybe, and usually with a lot of variation

b. I will continue doing it as long as I see fit to do it

c. What does it matter?

d. Maybe if you don't have anything helpful to contribute, just don't bother posting.

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > > > Attributes are very poorly balanced, and we've seen very few changes to any of them for a long time. Why things like this are never changed or discussed for ONCE PER QUARTER balance patches is beyond me, and shows the work of the balance team is far, far too myopic for the game's good.

> > >

> > > Because there's nothing wrong with the attributes.

> > >

> > > Defensive attributes are *never* going to be important in the solo PvE aspect of any decent game. Why? because they slow down the pace of the game and make it feel stale. This could work as a design principle for a game, but it would make it niche. And this isn't something that you want for your MMO. Hence offensive attributes will always reign supreme. Again, in solo PvE.

> > >

> > > In group PvE you see Healing Power being part of the meta and in the PvP modes pretty much every defensive stat is quite essential. In fact, it is the offensive stats that start to lose value. Namely, Expertise becomes a lot less important because of the number of cleanses being thrown about. Different environments.

> >

> > Just because you don't think there's anything wrong with them doesn't mean there's not anything wrong with them. I profoundly disagree with you. If they were fine, Celestial would be the most desired set for solo play due to its versatility. But it sucks.

>

> And if the game pushed you to make cele the best set for solo, it would suck. Because its pacing would be too slow. Difference in opinion is something normal, however I have actual arguments for my opinion.

Really? I'm not really seeing any. Furthermore, it seems to me like you're not understanding my arguments. You literally responded to my thread about why attributes are imbalanced and how to fix them with "offense is better than defense."

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > Attributes are very poorly balanced, and we've seen very few changes to any of them for a long time. Why things like this are never changed or discussed for ONCE PER QUARTER balance patches is beyond me, and shows the work of the balance team is far, far too myopic for the game's good.

>

> Because there's nothing wrong with the attributes.

>

> Defensive attributes are *never* going to be important in the solo PvE aspect of any decent game. Why? because they slow down the pace of the game and make it feel stale. This could work as a design principle for a game, but it would make it niche. And this isn't something that you want for your MMO. Hence offensive attributes will always reign supreme. Again, in solo PvE.

>

> In group PvE you see Healing Power being part of the meta and in the PvP modes pretty much every defensive stat is quite essential. In fact, it is the offensive stats that start to lose value. Namely, Expertise becomes a lot less important because of the number of cleanses being thrown about. Different environments.

Just because you don't think there's anything wrong with them doesn't mean there's not anything wrong with them. I profoundly disagree with you. If they were fine, Celestial would be the most desired set for solo play due to its versatility. But it sucks.

You understand the problem correctly, but your solution is bad. Chronos and Druids just needed to be nerfed. There's simply too much boon sharing too easily in the game now.

> @"Dante.1763" said:

> > @"Khisanth.2948" said:

> > > @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > > Power appears to be overtuned and matters way too much to your offensive potential, which is why it's a primary stat on way too many combos and why everyone recommends avoiding sinkhole stats like Toughness, Vitality, and HP that are supposed to be defensive but actually undermine your defense by crippling your offense too much. Unless maybe, just maybe you are a dedicated group support/healer, which is viable for one or two people in raid content, which most people don't do.

> > >

> >

> > Power is on everything because most content requires things to die. There are only a handful of times in the game where the end goal isn't to kill something. Power is also more reliable than conditions since there are some things that are either partially or completely immune to conditions.

> >

> > Everyone recommends avoiding toughness and vitality because all those people giving recommendations assumes the person asking for advice has a reasonable level of skill to use dodges(presumably anyone who would even as ask that question is above "completely oblivious to everything" level of casualness that they are either at the required level of skill or trying to get there), avoids standing in red circles/getting punched in the face, etc. unless otherwise stated. If there are other restrictions stated then whoever is giving the advice should take that into account *if they are any good at giving advice*. Glass cannon isn't actually appropriate for everyone.

> >

> > > The power of condition builds is too heavily weighted toward a single stat (Condition Damage), and this was made even worse by their bizarre and misguided decision to "balance" condi by making the durations last longer (it needs to be balanced through armor ratings, not duration), helping to reduce the need for Expertise on condition builds. This bad weighting is unfair to other builds since it leaves more strategic flexibility to have "suboptimal" extra points in other areas that you want. If you doubt me, try running a Condi build with dire stats and then a power build with soldier stats and observe the difference in efficacy.

> > >

> >

> > You have managed to missed the elephant in the room on those condition changes. They increased duration but decreased stacks by the same percent. The total damage for any given condition application remained mostly the same, there were a few that gained or loss a tick's worth of damage. The end result is a longer ramp up time. That means having stay alive lower to allow the conditions to do their damage.

>

> And even then power is still meta in most content in part due to the fact that it doesnt have a ramp up time(like 65% of it) and the other is that now you lose all your tics and have to start over should a boss go invuln(15%) and the other 15% of is the fact that in almost all of PVE things *DIE* so quickly you cant get max stacks by the time its dead.

Which is a problem. This is why condi needed to be balanced around armor rating and not around "ramp up time". The overall mechanics of the game mean that condi should have short duration and fast ramp up time. It needed to be balanced around the fact that it penetrates armor.

It's a prime example of how the balance just isn't focused in the right way.

> @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > > @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > > I tend to think of defensive stats as training wheels. They provide a safety net of sorts while players learn game mechanics and builds. I dont think that the fact that bikes with training wheels are slower than those without means that non training wheel bikes need to be slowed down or that training wheels need to be sped up.

> >

> > I disagree that this is the right approach, but they aren't even that. They do more to kitten you than they do to help you in the vast majority of situations precisely because of what I describe in the OP - the baselines and scaling for the attributes and how they affect your skills is way off in numerous cases.

>

> I disagree. Someone who has not yet learned how to dodge appropriately, how to maneuver for best defense, or how to build effectively has more time to live with PVT than zerker gear.

And you are just wrong. I have brought people into this game and coached them on at least four separate occasions, and they universally do better with offensive gear than they do with defensive gear because TTL is benefited the most by being able to kill enemies quickly. They also enjoy the game more because they kill things faster, and using offensive gear helps them get better faster than using defensive gear.

The simple truth is that defensive stats just aren't well balanced with offensive ones. Offensive ones matter too much, and defensive ones don't matter enough. The floor-ceiling disparity needs to be lowered with stats like power and condition damage, and it needs to be raised with stats like toughness and vitality.

> @"Ashen.2907" said:

> I tend to think of defensive stats as training wheels. They provide a safety net of sorts while players learn game mechanics and builds. I dont think that the fact that bikes with training wheels are slower than those without means that non training wheel bikes need to be slowed down or that training wheels need to be sped up.

I disagree that this is the right approach, but they aren't even that. They do more to gimp you than they do to help you in the vast majority of situations precisely because of what I describe in the OP - the baselines and scaling for the attributes and how they affect your skills is way off in numerous cases.

What I proposed in a thread a while back is turning Mace into more of a midrange condi focused weapon, then adding MH Axe to core Revenant to be a hybrid melee weapon.

I still think that's what makes the most sense. I don't think that core Rev necessarily needs a condi-heavy ranged weapon, but they definitely need some kind of option there.

> @"Arzurag.7506" said:

> > @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> > Stats are ok. Its the power creep that is the problem.

>

> ^this^

If this was the case, the problems I'm describing above wouldn't have predated HoT, but they very much did.

Power creep is a problem, but it's not the whole problem.

> @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

> Stats are ok. Its the power creep that is the problem.

I disagree.