Asum.4960

> @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > Even IF raids are hard, wouldn't having that kind of group content be a good thing? You know for having people play the game long term?

>

> What the point of spending 10% to 15% of your resources on content less than 1% of the player will ever attempt?

> Those resources would better be spent on content that more people might play.

>

Except Raids were made by ~1% of the company, and had Efficiency completion rates as high as 30% early on when Raids where still properly supported with frequent releases and promised a future for players to get into that content. Which also happens to be a higher rate than what some later LW story completions had on Efficiency.

And sure, Raids dropped to <5% participation later on (which while still reasonable for high end content, especially one produced by just a handful people, isn't fantastic), but that's not really surprising with maybe one Raid Wing a year just not being enough to sustain that community.

Plus, if 2019 revenue and it's staggering record drops has shown us anything, it's that LW and Story, which they almost entirely focused on that year, is absolutely not what is carrying the game.

That's why designing by statistics is a sure way to fail at making games. Just because most people play something like LW, simply because hey it's there and it takes about nothing to do so, doesn't mean that it's what most people are actually there for.

Just because something like Raids isn't played by the majority, because it does take "a lot" to do so, doesn't mean that it doesn't attract a great deal of players to the game and can serve as motivation for long term engagement for players to get to and experience some day.

So not only are your stats backwards, they are also largely useless or at the very least deceptive in how they more often than not go counter to good game design.

Sure you can have 0.01% of the company (one dev) make some really, really poor and unfun content that is incredibly rewarding and get absolutely fantastic engagement numbers of >80% as everybody wants the quick easy rewards, but if that's all you release then because stats tell you it's a great idea, you are going to kill your game quicker than you can blink with bored players who got everything and have nothing to do.

Endgame content doesn't need to boast majority numbers to be healthy for a game, be it for advertisement, carrot/inspiration for existing players wishing to get there, or for trickle down of innovative and engaging design and tech to the more generic and basic content, at least adding some variety to that and keeping the rest of the game fresh as well, as we've seen with Raids in GW2 repeatedly.

I actually currently have a very different opinion on this from what I've seen reading this thread, and that's that I think every profession should have some minor boon strip somewhere. Why? because that's really the only way I see Anet ever being able to make boons a fundamental part of PvE design.

Retaliation on mobs for example, which can kill a player in literally (3-5) seconds in PvE if they have a couple of rolling damage effects stacked (like Guardian Symbols, Ele Fields), could be a really interesting tool for Anet to play with to make open world, story and such a lot less brainless - having to watch out for such effects and react quickly with counterplay, while also really only being punishing for already proficient players with good damage rotations, aka the players most bored and not catered to by that content currently.

But as long as some professions just don't have any counterplay available to that and simply won't be able to fight those mobs (and no, I don't think expecting people to swap to a weapon with a Sigil of Nullification for every mob with a vital boon to remove that they might encounter is reasonable), that can't be done well.

I do think Necro's (Spellbreakers, etc.), somewhat themed around that with Corruptions, should be one of the few specs actually benefitting from boon removal beyond just removing the boon, as well as be needed for sustained/heavy boon removal needs, but unless every class at least very sporadically has access to some/one, boons can't ever be that staple feature in PvE that they are imo supposed to be.

PvE could be drastically more interesting if some mobs just had certain boons, or skills applying certain boons, but right now facing a mob with perma Protection for example would just be a spongy annoyance for most classes, rather than an interesting mechanical interaction rewarding players for build craft and awareness.

I want to see some mobs going into a rage, applying 25 Might and Quickness and being genuinely dangerous unless quickly stripped of that, other's shield themselves or just come with Protection, others's taking on a defensive stance, or with creative mob design - covering themselves in spikes or such and getting Retaliation, some mob types that keep running around while having Swiftness, but become snared once removed etc.

Clear visual cues with interesting and rewarding counterplay, and the systems for that are all in place since launch to never be properly utilised.

As for concerns about "theme", that's imo the weakest argument imaginable, as just about everything can be themed right with some creativity, be it a Guardian smiting boons off enemies with holy wrath or cleansing fire, a Elementalist burning them off or draining them with arcane energies, a Revenant eating them as Mallyx, a Mesmer disenchanting, a Necro corrupting, a Warrior Spellbreaking, a Thief stealing, an Engineer using alchemical concoctions, or a Ranger taming a boon eating pet, or enchanting one to do so with cleansing nature magic, theme really never should or needs to stay in the way of interesting gameplay and mechanics, if done reasonably.

To reiterate though, I do not wish everything to be loaded with Boon removal, absolutely not, and I do think boon strip on auto attacks, like is the case for Mesmer, absolutely needs to go for this mechanic to ever be remotely interesting as active mechanical choice, along with most if not all accidental/passive sources.

But I truly think that with every profession having some active boonstrip in their core kit, no matter how minor, that could have allowed Anet to straight up revolutionize PvE in terms of mob design, enemy distinction as well as player interaction and engagement.

Even if done in the laziest/easiest way possible, like a uniquely themed per profession PvE-only Utility skill, I still think it could go far in improving the game, but for that Anet would have to go back and look at all of the swing a sword and swing it again boring and barely interactive OW and Story PvE content done previously as well (same with breakbars, in addition to boons), and we all know that's not going to happen anyway.

> @"Chyanne Waters.8719" said:

> Quite a few people say because I want mastery points in the gem store that takes away from game play. Well to some that may be true, but to me it doesn't. I played Guildwars since 2005 in which I ended up o my sin 35 maxed titles (that's 5 titles over god walking amongst mere mortals title), Got GWAMM on my Rit, and Mesmer too.

> In the Hall of Monuments I have four fully maxed out halls for four different characters. So in that game I did the extra stuff and enjoyed doing it while playing.

> GW2 on the other hand does not have that system it has achievements which I am not interested in maxing out like titles in GW. If I get them I get them. The mastery points in the story are the same I do not want to go out of my way to get them while trying to get through the story to complete it.

> We should not have to play the way we don't want too to max our masteries, and not be able compete all the mastery lines in the game. So putting the points in the gem store is not pay to win, but a quality of life thing. You still have to get the exp. to use them. It will not break the game at all.

Something doesn't have to be technically "Pay to Win" to take away from the game and it's systems, also I don't quite understand this constant "We should not have to play the way we don't want to" be all end all argument in this community, against any form of interesting, challenging, group, diverse or new content, completely stagnating the game.

These systems, be it meta achievements, mastery points, gear acquisition, legendary crafting, etc., are in place for a reason and are supposed to drive long term engagement, expose players to different types of content and build up emotional investment to the game by giving players a sense of accomplishment.

All of those things could be sold in the Gemstore without being "pay to win", from legendaries to ascended gear to mastery points or achievements, since really, what is winning in PvE? Especially in a game as easy as this, but also where gear is far and wide outweighed by skill for the few challenging aspects of it.

Yet, it would completely invalidate actually playing the game and any prestige, recognition or sense of accomplishment attached to anything.

It's already hard enough to care about any cosmetic rewards when something better is always just a click away for real money.

Same concept of how Raid sellers pretty much completely invalidated any prestige and sense of accomplishment from any Raid CM titles and such.

Sure, I don't have to buy them, I can legitimately earn them.. but even if I do I'm then just indistinguishable from someone who did, so what's the point in having them if everything is just a matter of money.

Do I still feel good about putting time and effort into a game when all I can accomplish can just as well be bought? Let alone if I bought it myself?

For Mastery Points the point about being "forced" to play a certain way or thing (even if we accept that being universally bad, which I disagree with) is especially mute though.

There are 83 Central Tyria Mastery points available, for a 49 needed to max out everything.

198 HoT Points for 144 needed.

130 PoF Points for 110 needed.

And the only remotely close (so far) 58 Ice Brood Saga Points for 46 needed.

If you can't find enough points without having to do things you hate too much to do them in that case, maybe you are just not enjoying the game, and that's fine.

You don't have to max out everything if you don't actually care to do so.

Invalidating the whole system even further for anyone who does care and pushes through some inconveniences and stuff they don't like to max out everything by just adding a credit card cheat option is, imo, not an apt solution just for some who do not actually want to engage with the game and it's systems though.

And sure, the mastery system already isn't peak game design and ultimately doesn't matter or show anything because there are so many point to get anyway, but where is the line there with adding things to the Gemstore?

And if players can just buy level 80, all masteries, hero points, ascended/legendary gear and so on, what's actually left to do and the point in having much of a game beyond the store, beyond "niche" content like PvP, Raids and Fractal's, which are satisfying for their own sake due to the challenge they provide?

People really don't seem to understand how damaging MTX are to games and their design with making such requests.

As soon as things like ingame progression are normalised to be on sale for MTX (and that includes even cosmetics to some extend), it heavily incentivizes the developer to keep making the natural progression (through gameplay) more and more obtuse, annoying and grindy, in order to funnel people into the store for the much more "convenient" credit card alternative they so kindly offer, propping up their "value" by making the actual game a chore.

Besides, even if you want to argue for it supporting game development with purchases, it's just as likely to be short term gains as it can also undermine the long term engagement and emotional investment of players, even harming the game population wise and therefor financially long term. If anything and everything is just a RL money purchase away, what's the point of actually keeping playing to "earn" anything, when every ingame achievement, accomplishment or reward has been devalued by just being a purchase without any prestige or proof of effort and dedication attached to it. Motivation to keep playing, and with that engagement with the overbearing store, plummets.

MTX in large parts are just monetized cheat codes, be it for (in previous generations of games earn able ingame) cosmetic or mechanical progression, and anybody who ever cheated in a single player game for fun knows how quickly that'll burn you out, since non of the actually ingame systems matter anymore.

Seriously, if you don't want to play the game, just don't. You don't have to get all the mastery points and masteries if you don't wish to do so (and there is plenty surplus of them to give players some choice in what to go for), but the game is already more than enough of a platform for monetization as it is.

If you'd rather just go shopping than play the game, go play Amazon Store or smth.

> @"ATMAvatar.5749" said:

> > @"Infusion.7149" said:

> > I'd suggest you make a LFG squad group and just look for firebrand+alacrity renegade+banner berserker/warrior.

>

> I won't disagree with the efficacy of this group setup, but it is a rather sad indictment of the current game balance that you have to construct groups around a few very specific builds of specific professions.

Really doesn't have anything to do with game balance whatsoever, Chronomancer, Firebrand and Renegade are just literally the only specs in the game capable of upkeeping group Quickness and Alacrity, and Warrior the only profession capable of providing those multiple unique 10 man buffs, each of those boons/buffs adds drastically more value than anything else you could bring to an absurd degree, making them essentially mandatory.

If anything your complaint would be, understandably so, about game design, unless you are critiquing the efficacy of Quickness/Alacrity and Banners itself ofc.

It's certainly not "dead", and depending on what you enjoy in a ~~MMO~~ Game it's still a fantastic game to get into with loads of content to experience.

Where the accusation of dead game comes from, and imo validly so, is once you've been there and done that in terms of incredibly easy and often bland single player and story content and actually want to play an MMO and really get and stay engaged with the game and communities.

It doesn't really matter whether you enjoy small scale PvP, large scale PvP, casual instanced PvE, hardcore instanced PvE, small friend group content (casual or hc), large guild group content (c/h), etc. it's a sad matter of fact that pretty much all of that is dead and abandoned content at this point, with only a few people/communities in those remaining on life support due to lack of new content, in favour of ~2h worth of single player story patches and play alone together OW content every couple months.

Now if you are new and somehow can still find groups regularly for that content, it being all "dead" ofc doesn't matter as much as it's a huge amount for newer players to catch up on still, but once you get bored of the same few Dungeons, Raids, Fractals, Guild Halls, Guild Missions, Strikes, WvW gameloop, PvP maps and meta, and on, there is just nothing in sight to ever rectify that at this point.

If you enjoy eternally walking around mostly alone (and even if not, never actually engaging with anyone) in a tutorial like OW oneshotting mobs, the game has you covered though.

> @"Linken.6345" said:

> > @"Dark Red Killian.3946" said:

> > Instead of removing them why not add a spot in the novelty button where you can use them in battle using that button? It doesn’t get use in battle anyway right now and just takes up space in your skill bar, and if you need to use it quickly you hit “u” and bam it’s done.

>

> So anet says we dont want you to use these in instanced battle and your solution is to give it a special inventory slot that you can bind a hotkey to?

Isn't that what Anet essentially already did for OW and Strikes with the Icebrood Saga Masteries?

Clearly they don't want the people who desperately still need to learn the game mechanics the most to play "as intended by adjusting their build".

Even worse, they don't even need to learn when and why to use that special action key for uber CC, bc it just conveniently lights up and comes available when needed.

Still worse, I remember some Strike bosses being better not CC'ed, providing larger DPS windows, yet no matter how many times told not to, people would still hit that button every time, bc hey, shiny new button to press - who cares why and what it does.

Now in theory I 100% agree with the overcoming by adjusting build philosophy, I'm just not entirely sure why they keep dumbing down the game foundation at the lowest level where people apparently are supposed to learn the game by constantly giving them more tools which invalidate combat mechanics (be it provide CC, give boons, etc.), but then at the same timer go after the very small remaining niche of hardcore players who have mastered the game and are looking for/using even more niche extra tools to further elevate their gameplay and to keep things interesting instead, and by doing so just keep furthering the gap between both players and the content.

UI wise no special inventory slot would have been needed to fix the "iventory open issue", they could have just made the CC consumables Novelties, which already have a hotkey.

> @"Lily.1935" said:

> > @"Asum.4960" said:

> > Good ideas and a lot of same conclusions I've come to and posted in the past on what could work.

> >

> > As for Sand Savant, I still think Scourge and this Trait would be a good spot for 10 man Alac, in addition to the pulsing barrier or healing in place of the base damage, making it a purely supportive option.

> >

> > Scourge is imo one of the easiest options to make compete with Renegade for the Alacrity, CC, off-DPS and Boon Strip role in Fractal's and Raid's (or Alac Heal Scourge + Quickbrand) to start increasing the variety of support specs/combinations.

>

> I'm on the other end thinking quickness should be the boon but I'd be happy with Alacrity for sure. Either would be great.

Both works ofc, and I've played with the idea of party Quickness on Necro in the past as well, namely when the Death Magic Rework was announced, hoping for something like a "Frenzy of the Dead" GM which increases Minion Attack Speed and provides Quickness to nearby allies and such, making the whole minion DM Trait line tailored around Minion **and** party boon support to broaden it's usefulness.

Since that didn't happen and we got Carapace instead, now for Scourge I suppose both Alacrity and Quickness could work well for a Sands of Time theme, but in terms of making supports somewhat interchangeable to make compositions more fluid, Scourge aligns a lot more with Renegade (Alacrity) than FB (Quickness) with the rest of it's toolset.

Also in terms of internal consistency (for solo play and such), Scourge is a spec that is very CD dependant, but doesn't scale that much with Quickness compared to others, so I'm personally leaning more towards Alacrity Scourge, and maybe Quickness for Tempest to compete with FB.

(Although I'm pretty sure neither is ever going to happen ofc., and it's more likely they will put everything into the next set of specs which will likely unfortunately just creep up so much in power that they will just replace the current specs, rather than compete with them offering variety)

And yea, that **Serpent Siphon** still exists in it's current form and has never been touched (by Anet or players) is almost funny at this point.

Good ideas and a lot of same conclusions I've come to and posted in the past on what could work.

As for Sand Savant, I still think Scourge and this Trait would be a good spot for 10 man Alac, in addition to the pulsing barrier or healing in place of the base damage, making it a purely supportive option.

Scourge is imo one of the easiest options to make compete with Renegade for the Alacrity, CC, off-DPS and Boon Strip role in Fractal's and Raid's (or Alac Heal Scourge + Quickbrand) to start increasing the variety of support specs/combinations.

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Asum.4960" said:

> > Yea, the 3-5 people who made Raids

> The number we heard was 5-6 people. Working full-time on single wing. At the same time when there were still 2 more wings in production (wings 1-3 were developed pretty much concurrently, from what we heard, development on wing 3 started before wing 1 was finished). And there were also people that were working on raids part-time, in addition to other work (like Maclaine Diemer and his music team, who were working on raid music even though they weren't part of the raid team at all). The number of people involved in raid production was way, way bigger than just those 5-6 people.

> If 3-5 people were truly what raids needed for development, you can bet they would still be as actively developed as in the beginning. But it seems that Anet did eventually agree that they were, indeed, a waste of development resources compared to the gain they brought. Which is why at this moment they _are_ abandoned.

Fine, 5-6 out of ~300-400 Devs at the time.

And ofc there was some part time overlap like with music production, but I find it hard to imagine that those departments didn't just mostly hop in when they had time anyway to some extend (likely contributing to various further delays on Raids and such), rather than taking away from other gamemodes etc., it's not like the game is constantly getting updated with new assets, music, etc. since or before Raids were a thing.

Also Anet abandoning/barely life supporting content and systems isn't really indicative of anything at this point, since clearly they have some severe company management and game vision issues, with there being vastly more content avenues and systems being dead or on life support than actually ones still supported.

It's not that Dungeons, Raids, PvP, WvW, Fractals for the most part, meaningful Masteries, seemingly now Strikes, Guild Halls, Guild Missions, Bounties and on and on and on all inherently didn't work or "weren't worth it".

Anet just did as Anet does and on a whim abandons systems and content, chasing something new which they no doubt will abandon next shortly after before ever giving it a real chance with proper funding, development and iterations.

Then after many months if not years without updates, engagement with that part of the game naturally continuously drops due to lack of new content, excitement and a feeling of having a future in that content to get new people in, and then people go, "ah, yes, see - no one plays it, Anet was right to abandon it", which is just silly.

Just like barely anyone would care about or play the game for Living World if Anet just released one LW patch every 1-3 years, ofc so barely anyone plays the game for or gets into Raids, Fractal CM's etc., let alone Dungeons, Guild Missions and such, if Anet barely supports it.

If Anet isn't willing to put anything into Raids, they ofc aren't going to get anything out of it either. That doesn't say anything about Raids itself though.

There is no doubt in my mind that if Anet had put in the resources to continuously drop a Raid and Fractal every 3-4 months, they would not only be alive and well but actually be a staple of GW2.

I'm also fairly certain the game would be doing much better financially and population wise if they had focused more on general community building group content like Guild Missions, WvW and possibly even more intricate Bounties, along with things like Fractal and Raids, rather than just the high effort low return ~2h of non-repeatable single player (or "play alone together" OW) content every 3 months, which likely takes more resources than supporting all those abandoned repeatable community building modes combined would have taken.

It's fairly easily observable that what keeps MMO's healthy longterm is facilitating player connections and communities which then keep each other engaged, rather than some more or less single player Story DLC's now and then, and the more exclusively Anet chased that model (simply bc due to being the most supported aspect of the game it was by far the most populated), in favour of abandoned group content, the more rapidly revenue dropped.

Hardly seems like a coincidence.

And btw, I'm not saying LW as a whole was/is a waste or that it instead should have been abandoned, at all. There is some great stuff in there and it absolutely has it's place as easily digestible content and filler for the masses. Putting all eggs into that basket though was imo a grave mistake, and it's no wonder everything else suffered in turn.

> @"Linken.6345" said:

> > @"Asum.4960" said:

> > > @"sorudo.9054" said:

> > > Raids are the wasted hole within PvE that used up way to much time for little use, i rather see Anet turn raids into something more friendly for the majority of the PvE crowd so the time wasted isn't lost completely.

> >

> > Yea, the 3-5 people who made Raids really burned a hole into the almost 400 people large company at the time, especially since those people constantly had to step away from that content and help out elsewhere (LW, expansions, etc.). They also brought a lot of what they learned with that content back into other aspects of the game, making Raids some of the highest value addition for dev time in the game.

> > But them being spread so thin on that content front is also what caused their release to slow down and the following rapid drops in playerbase in the first place, for which they then were deemed unsustainable to no fault of that content.

> >

> > Meanwhile the massive rescourge hog LW, which sure, is played by more people (although early Raids, when they were still properly supported with a reasonable release cadence, actually had higher efficiency completion rates than some later LW episodes, so there is that), has also just a large amount of people not actually caring about the content at all and just play it because it's all there is, as filler.

> >

> > Something like a LW episode takes a tremendous amount of resources, from creating large maps to writing, voice acting etc., then a large amount of players plays through it once in an hour or two and that's it, yet another soon to be ghost town.

> > Something like a Raid or Fractal at least brings a minority hundreds of hours of high quality, highly repeatable entertainment each, while being much less to produce.

> >

> > If you want to talk about a content hole that wasted way to many dev hours for way too little return, and where content design by "engagement" metrics went wrong, LW is far and wide in the lead there, as something many play but few care about.

> > In 2019 Anet did nothing but release super easy mostly non repeatable OW content with LW, and at the same time saw record revenue drops to the game (over -25%), leading them to hastily announce another far off expansion because they realised LW, which they going by the metrics apparently wanted to entirely focus on, was just not at all carrying the game and playerbase.

> >

> > As for the topic at hand, theoretically Reward Tracks are a good idea for all content at this point imo.

> > This community has been highly trained to only really care about loot through years of highly rewarding low (gameplay) quality content (LW and such), so having that extra bar that fills up with shinies for whatever a player chooses to do could go a long way to keep people motivated.

> > PvE tracks (be it OW, Raids, Fractals, Dungeons, etc.) would have to fill very, very slowly though or give much reduced/more minor rewards compared to PvP/WvW, as that aspect of the game already is fairly rewarding generally.

> > Also opting into them should probably work similarly to masteries, in which case Reward Track progress then replaces Mastery or Spirit Shard progress for the time/until disabled.

>

> A nice post, so basically map rewards we have no but a easily visible track like in wvw and spvp?

Yea, it would probably be a good idea to replace the Map Bonus Reward system (which I honestly forgot existed, which maybe says something) for the more visible and easier to track and understand Reward Track system.

The Pact Scout's Mapping Materials could then also serve as PvE Reward Track "Potions" for dailies, similarly to what PvP and WvW have, which would likely make them a lot more appealing.

Reward tracks give people some agency in what goal/track they want to pursue and provide an easily trackable interface for it. In design I find them vastly superior to things like the Map Bonus Reward system or the Drizzlewood Achievement tracks.

UI wise I suppose they could be situated under the Mastery Tab in the Hero Panel, possibly locked until after reaching level 80 - serving as alternative/additional "endgame" system along the Mastery System.

> @"sorudo.9054" said:

> Raids are the wasted hole within PvE that used up way to much time for little use, i rather see Anet turn raids into something more friendly for the majority of the PvE crowd so the time wasted isn't lost completely.

Yea, the 3-5 people who made Raids really burned a hole into the almost 400 people large company at the time, especially since those people constantly had to step away from that content and help out elsewhere (LW, expansions, etc.). They also brought a lot of what they learned with that content back into other aspects of the game, making Raids some of the highest value addition for dev time in the game.

But them being spread so thin on that content front is also what caused their release to slow down and the following rapid drops in playerbase in the first place, for which they then were deemed unsustainable to no fault of that content.

Meanwhile the massive rescourge hog LW, which sure, is played by more people (although early Raids, when they were still properly supported with a reasonable release cadence, actually had higher efficiency completion rates than some later LW episodes, so there is that), has also just a large amount of people not actually caring about the content at all and just play it because it's all there is, as filler.

Something like a LW episode takes a tremendous amount of resources, from creating large maps to writing, voice acting etc., then a large amount of players plays through it once in an hour or two and that's it, yet another soon to be ghost town.

Something like a Raid or Fractal at least brings a minority hundreds of hours of high quality, highly repeatable entertainment each, while being much less to produce.

If you want to talk about a content hole that wasted way to many dev hours for way too little return, and where content design by "engagement" metrics went wrong, LW is far and wide in the lead there, as something many play but few care about.

In 2019 Anet did nothing but release super easy mostly non repeatable OW content with LW, and at the same time saw record revenue drops to the game (over -25%), leading them to hastily announce another far off expansion because they realised LW, which they going by the metrics apparently wanted to entirely focus on, was just not at all carrying the game and playerbase.

As for the topic at hand, theoretically Reward Tracks are a good idea for all content at this point imo.

This community has been highly trained to only really care about loot through years of highly rewarding low (gameplay) quality content (LW and such), so having that extra bar that fills up with shinies for whatever a player chooses to do could go a long way to keep people motivated.

PvE tracks (be it OW, Raids, Fractals, Dungeons, etc.) would have to fill very, very slowly though or give much reduced/more minor rewards compared to PvP/WvW, as that aspect of the game already is fairly rewarding generally.

Also opting into them should probably work similarly to masteries, in which case Reward Track progress then replaces Mastery or Spirit Shard progress for the time/until disabled.

> @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

> I want Doom reworked, that's all I personally care.

>

> Though I appreciate the thought behind your frequent balancing and rework suggestions, I don't think everything needs to be good in every area of the game. Some things have their niche. Core Necro is a strong 1v1/X in PvP and a good small scale boon hate tank. It doesn't need to have good DPS because it has other utility that makes it worth taking over the elites in the right circumstances.

>

> Also in regard to Tainted Shackles, this skill has a high Power co-efficient so it works nicely as a burst if timed properly with a Life Blast. It is a hybrid skill that works with either type of build and can be used in a variety of ways.

>

> As a long time core Necro player I couldn't disagree that it has its share of problems. To an extent I agree with the people that say it is a poorly designed mechanic, but I don't think it is entirely bad either. As balance patches have come and gone it has become a lot more viable and for the most part continues to improve. My only complaint about any changes to core in recent times is Doom, and I'm still mad about it. Otherwise I think core Shroud is plenty strong and useful, just not in all content.

I do agree that not everything needs to be good everywhere, but Core Necro really is exceptionally lacklustre in PvE. Being decent in PvP is an increasingly small niche, and even there it's frequently outperformed by either Reaper or Scourge or both, depending on Anet's random patch cycles.

Going into limited resource Shroud and blasting out all your abilities shouldn't do less damage than literally just Auto Attacking on almost every other spec/profession/weapon set.

Also, personally I always found Life Blast really fun, reminding me a lot of DnD's Warlock with Eldritch Blast spamming, and it's imo a shame that it's just so downright terrible, because it's actually fun running around in Shroud blasting things.. if it just did anything.

Core AA ofc shouldn't have the damage of Reaper AA, due to multiple reasons (ranged, lower Shroud decay etc.), but the fact that it's less than 50% of the damage of Reaper is imo silly. And that's only if we consider perma Quickness on both, which Reaper gets for "free" and Core only has limited access to with Dread (giving up another damage modifier in Close to Death).

Even if Core Necro won't ever be meta for anything (outside of some PvP presence now and then), it imo shouldn't be over 50% behind Reaper, which has also cleave going for it.

Even if they don't rework anything at all, even a literally 100% damage buff/50% cast time reduction to Life Blast, at least in PvE only, would still leave Core Necro in a fairly lacklustre/awful place, so I don't see why not.

That said, Lily's idea of at least partially merging Life Transfer and Tainted Shackles isn't a bad idea, and the Direct Damage + Torment wouldn't necessarily be out of line compared to Reaper's (almost double) Direct Damage + Poison on Soul Spiral, with the Life Force Generation and Immob at the end as tradeoff for the still much lower damage.

Plus having two very similar AoE Channel(like) Abilities in Core Shroud, both of which don't really do all too much always felt a little bit lacklustre. Merging them into one proper Skill and giving it another 5 imo would be a pretty solid move.

Doom is actually the only Core Shroud Ability I like as is (and Doom + Dread + Fear of Death - Blaster would probably be my favourite silly OW build, if Life Blast just wasn't so terrible).

One thing they could do to Doom as compromise between the current and old version though would be to make it instant cast again, but instead make it apply a Pulmonary Impact like debuff on the enemy (say, Impending Doom), which triggers the Fear after ~0.75 seconds, still giving enemies a chance to react upon seeing the animation, without the skill having to be clunky to get off, especially as defensive mechanic.

> @"Jilora.9524" said:

> You seem to have huge issues with a game and expect perfect play everytime because you are so bored and used to the content you can't adjust at all to anything but perfection and to be quite honest why are you still playing w pugs instead of when you get that perfect run you go hay guys same time tomorrow night or add 50 players you had these runs with a friends instead of rolling the dice since it upsets you so much. And if you need to muster up energy to do something like play a game walk away from the content.

Not perfect play, by far, but I will admit that I just don't have the patience anymore for 1h30m+ runs, wiping, people leaving, going back to LFG etc. and that when I play that content I just want to have a smooth and fun run without all that frustration.

As for the group thing that you suggested, I used to do that for a very long time - basically forming semi statics, swapping out members as people came and went.

The problem with that eventually was just that people were quitting the game at such rapid rates (including me for times with things like the "Template" patch and other missteps by Anet) that it just wasn't fun or possible to replace them anymore at that same rate by getting to know new somewhat competent players.

Ultimately I did walk away from it, yea.

I'm currently playing extremely casually (mostly just PvP/dailies at times), really just waiting for new developments. But it is disappointing that everytime I check in with a new patch it's Anet taking yet another thing out of the game, rather than adding to it and bringing players back in.

> @"Jilora.9524" said:

> You just can't see that insane reqs like 250 exclude everyone from bads to guys who converted to guys who even vendered this kitten. It also scares players off if that's all that's in lfg so why 250 and 216 isn't enough or 199. Did those last 12-25 runs now put me over the hump to elite. Anets mistake was not force converting all on log in into wallet cause ya this is worse now for anyone new not the dude who ran kitten 500 times unless of course he gambles everynight on pugs. Like why? That is by far the most baffling thing about you. It's like going to the dmv everyday expecting no line and getting upset when there is one.

First of all, for the majority of groups that I have been a part of, those requirements really are just meant as experience/confidence check, not a hard gate.

Pretty much every KP gated group I have been part of was more than welcoming of people with less KP joining who were upfront about it and confident in their skill, as long as the KP they had was still somewhat in a reasonable realm.

So for a majority of 250 KP groups, 216 or 199 would, in my experience, actually be more than fine still.

Also I didn't gamble every night on pugs as I had several (semi)statics for the majority of time playing. I started the content pugging and then again towards the end as more and more often 1-2 slots had to be filled as there were simply not enough players interested in statics left, until eventually the whole thing fell apart completely with a huge exodus of entire Guilds like my whole Raid static/community etc. quitting due to lack of content and dwindling interest.

After taking some break myself I tried to make pugging work again which worked fine for a time, but now with this whole new mess of the weird KP situation you describe and Anet further chipping away at the content rather than adding to it, it just doesn't feel like the endgame- content and community has much future anymore.

> @"Jilora.9524" said:

> I'm not asking anyone to carry anyone but why in harder than raid content is there no training runs to increase the pool. No guilds etc advertising except of course today. Looking for CM runners must have dwd and lnhb. Join that guild dude. Then you can never stress again.

> As for wasted time I bet you wasted more time in lfg with reqs then the time you lost kicking bads but tbh we all waste time playing mmos because we have time to waste otherwise I'd do something that's actually productive.

> And the driving you out of the game is funny. I can't and won't play with you types anyway so no we won't miss you if your gone because we never could qualify to play with you in the first place. You need a new game. That's my suggestion to you other then arguing with me and projecting this issues w GW2 and GW2 players who caused you stress onto me. If im just an outlet for you I don't mind.

> It is fun watching t4 lfg

> guard guard guard rev

> guard guard guard rev

> Guard guard rev sb

> Guard guard guard sb

> You don't get to see the 5th as it disappears

> Throw in a few odd classes every 5 lfgs but the guard guard rev is almost static

> That is skill stacking and playing the exact same classes the exact same way as everyone else. That isn't a fun game to me and I will never conform to that garbo

Training for Fractals/CM's usually happen within Guilds and communities, at least that's how we have almost always done it.

I also generally ran at ~100KP and was more than accepting of people with 50+KP, as well as giving new people a shot and training others on top of always preferring more casual and smooth runs with a healer, not that you think just because I defend KP or have 1k myself I'm necessarily of the 800+KP no heal super speed run crowd that no new player, no matter how skilled, can ever realistically reach anymore.

But even just that level of play is becoming increasingly difficult to maintain.

I agree it's time to move to something else or to at least take a prolonged break, but it ain't really my fault CDPR keeps delaying Cyberpunk 2077, and I'am, despite all, still very attached to this franchise, having played GW1-2 on and off, but mostly on, for 15 years now.

If that long term attachment wasn't there, I surely would have moved on from the game and community (incl. these forums) a long time ago with most everybody else of the more endgame focused community as that's clearly just not catered to.

I'm well aware we won't be missed. I do think it's a shame though to lose that aspect of the game since Anet fairly easily could have catered to more than just the ultra casual LW/Open World crowd with fairly minimal effort, and I'm baffled that they seem to actively work against retaining player groups who were even still playing very actively while getting no content or updates for years at a time by actively and repeatedly taking features away from them. That just seems fairly silly to me, especially since it comes with no positive trade off as every one of those changes just makes a bigger mess of things, especially for the more casual audience they are targeted at who wont ever engage with this content at large anyway, while ofc losing those who do and are.

What I wrote in that statement wasn't entirely directed towards you (as I tried to convey) but more as a general statement to people of the requirements are the issue crowd (when really they are just a flawed but necessary solution to the actual problem which remains unaddressed), but thank you regardless for letting me vent.

> @"Jilora.9524" said:

> Ya well explain the hoops in lfg. 250 kp kp.me dwd title ping consumables etc etc. Too any one not in that click it sure seems spiteful and impossible to crack.

Okay, here is the thing that I never got about that complaint/argument about requirements and how they lock people out of the content and that nobody who makes it ever attempts to explain:

How does anyone making a group on LFG asking for 250KP, DwD, Title, Consumables etc. affect you or anyone else negatively in any capacity?

What is at all the issue with that existing? How does it prevent anyone from just joining another group not asking for those things, or should no such group exist, making an own group/LFG not asking for those things?

And that's where the entitlement accusation comes from. Why does some vocal subset of this community just expect, or rather straight up demand, that other's make LFG's catering to them for them, when everybody has the power to just write their own LFG?

It's not like any of us who do have KP, titles, consumables etc. just had them fall from the sky. We all started out as beginners.

It's just some of us posted training LFG's, asked around in guilds, friend lists etc. until we had a group together and tackled and learned the content and earned those things, to then be able to ask for them in others who did as well to then clear the content together in a way that is satisfying to us with like minded players - and others just sit in LFG, watch the postings that aren't fit for them, and then go and cry to the devs that they are locked out of the content by evil elitists who don't want to play with them rather than putting in the work themselves, just expecting a carry.

How is that not pure entitlement? Why does it matter what other's demand in their LFG? And how does what they demand for their own groups in any way impact the ability of others to make their own groups according to their level of experience and play?

And tbh, I find it highly dismissive when you say something like, Oh big deal, you wasted 10 minutes of time giving some player not fullfilling the requirements a shot, what is the big deal.

The big deal comes from the fact that I over the years have played CM's roughly over 500 times.

If every other day I play with someone not fullfilling requirements, or would have had no system like KP at all to filter people, and every day would have had to notice 10 minutes in that one or two players simply aren't good enough to clear the content, then we are already just from that alone at over 80h wasted in pure frustration, not taking into consideration haveing to go back LFG and waiting for new players (who might just not work out again).

Now if I'm playing at reset, usually after the Reset time is over, you just can't find people anymore, so your run is just done and failed that day if a really bad player cheats themselves in and then can't perform, that's 30 minutes preclearing a Fractal and waiting for Reset is wasted, 10 minutes of trying the first CM and failing wasted, 20 minutes of sitting in LFG and trying to find a replacement wasted, and then often times just calling it a night, and either skipping that day or hoping to have time and energy to try again later that day. Now if that happens every day, playing the content 500 times over the years, we are talking about a whopping 500h+ wasted in frustration.

And even if you don't play at reset and do find a replacement, that's still a couple minutes on LFG again, and then maybe getting yet again another bad player, having to do the whole thing again of trying them out for an attempt or two, back to LFG, etc., which over doing Fractals 500 times still would accumulate to easily 300 hours, spent on wiping and LFG'ing over the years.

That is why people eventually just ramp up their requirements. Because it's not "just 10 minutes wasted", it's 10 minutes + having to go back to LFG, day after day after day, and after hours of doing that over time, everyone would eventually just get sick and tired of that and put some requirements in place to try to increase the chance of getting proficient players.

And yes, after having done Shattered Observatory and Nightmare about ~500 times, I genuinely can almost play it with my eyes closed, because proficient groups have a specific cadence to them. We know how much DPS our groups on average have, we know when the boss phases, we know what mechanics are skipped, we know how fast breakbars break, etc.

Playing CM's for me with a proficient group genuinely is a relaxing trance of efficient smooth gameplay in which I can just relax, almost like a well rehearsed dance you take pleasure in executing well/perfectly, that's what makes, or rather made, them still fun for me after all this time. That I could just "turn off" and watch high level play.

The problem is though when suddenly someone doesn't at all pull their weight, messes up all the phasing with low DPS, fails mechanics etc., and that whole relaxing run, that basically runs on muscle memory alone, completely falls apart.

Now I personally don't have any issue carrying and training new people that I know, guildies, friends, friends of friends or even complete strangers at times if they seem nice, and have done so many many times - when I knew what I was in for.

But when I just want to have a nice smooth and relaxing run and someone lies themselves into the group and then indeed ruins that whole fun and smooth experience, then yea, that's upsetting - especially when I'm not in the mood for it or simply don't have the time/energy for it that day.

If that then happens 10, 20, 50, a hundred plus times over time, it does indeed become grueling.

Even more so since usually those less proficient players causing these wipes and slowdowns, no matter how nicely you are trying to help and teach them (if they respond/communicate at all), are some of the most toxic and vile players in the community in my experience, easily rivaling any super hardcore elitist (whom I dislike and avoid just as much if not more).

If I sacrifice my time and patience helping out someone less experienced and half the time reap insults and harassment as reward when they ultimately fail to perform and get the slightest constructive criticism, then yes, I'm not going to that anymore, or at least try to avoid doing so daily - if I want to keep my mental health somewhat intact.

So no, asking for KP and such isn't because of "one guy wasting 10 minutes of my time once", it's about literally wasting up to hundreds of hours over the years wiping in content, staring at LFG, or getting insulted, in content which I myself can almost play with my eyes closed. That's not fun.

It's get's even worse as highly empathetic person who greatly dislikes having to kick people, that's just not a position I want to put myself in regularly if I can avoid it.

If you can't understand that and why such systems like KP or requirements in general were necessary and how they had nothing at all to do with spiting new players or trying to keep them out of the gamemode, then idk.

Once again, everybody has the ability to form their own groups. No one's other LFG and requirements, no matter how ridiculous they might seem (and in some cases are), impacts that in any shape or form.

You can't expect experienced players to just carry strangers in a grueling process every or every other day.

If you try Fractals once and wipe a group for 10 minutes and get kicked, sure, it's just 10 minutes wasted for you - and them in your eyes, no big deal - but that likely happened many, many, many times to them already before, so it's understandable that they are sick and tired of it.

That's not the same as active gatekeeping though, and if hardcore players actively didn't want new players in their gamemodes, it would be very strange for them to spend untold amounts of time and effort into guides, websites, videos, builds, training guilds, discords, etc.

But if you just sit on LFG expecting a no requirement, free carry without putting in any effort yourself (and I'm not saying you do that but as general statement to those who do), then I'm afraid you are the problem, not the people who don't let you join their advanced runs.

You are keeping yourself out of that content, to no fault of established hardcore players or systems like KP, and painting them as the boogeyman and driving them out of the game won't help you one bit, because even if they are all gone, you and your unwillingness to put in effort, start LFG's and groups and to learn the content will still remain the actual problem, keeping you from the content.

Take some responsibility, start a group/lfg yourself and put in the work, this is challenging content after all. No one else is keeping you from it.

**TL:DR;**

I know that got long and it's not really about consumables per se but the Fractal/endgame content LFG requirement situation as whole, but just read it if you are upset about LFG requirements and such, it's probably the last time I'm going to try to explain why it's not active malicious gatekeeping to spite new players, but pretty much a necessity to keep the mental health intact of those who play the content regularly.

The skill gaps in the community are just too high and tutorialisation of the game through too easy Story and OW content too bad to make this everybody welcome to all content utopia possible, and there is a very good reason why people resort to this type of "gating".

Taking the mechanisms out of the game by which that is done doesn't fix that underlying problem, while ultimately just taking out interesting mechanics and quirks out of the game and driving players away.

> @"Jilora.9524" said:

> The talent pool thing was more since more high end cm players have already gilded or formed a static the newer players pool of good players is much lower. That is the thing tho. Fractal CM and things like raids are for a small portion of the player base. The diff with fractals is the tiers of difficulty. I bet a ton more players do fractals then raid because of this. Now of course the end game fractals base is really small much smaller then raids I bet because it at times is just as hard or harder but there are no CM training runs or guilds out there(that I kno of) to train. It's just the cm runners who want to find other cm runners and try there best to block anyone newer from getting into the content. In fact go above and beyond to block and out anyone desperate enough to try and sneak in because there are no ways to crack this content unlike raids where you can join training runs etc so you get the toxic fakers just looking for carry

I really fundamentally disagree with that notion that established CM runners at large are actively and maliciously try to prevent other's from getting into the content. That's nonsense.

They are just wanting to have fun themselves, which means playing with likeminded and skilled players, since after doing this very limited set of same content over and over and over again for years, doing it efficiently and smooth really is the only thing that makes it still fun.

Pretty much no one wants to wipe and struggle for hours in content they have literally played 300+ times and know blind by muscle memory, to absolutely no fault of their own with no way to compensate or carry. Especially not daily.

That is very, very far from malicious intend and active gatekeeping.

Making ones own LFG with a requirement doesn't harm anyone else, nor block them from making their own without that requirement.

If people not fulfilling those requirements refuse to make their own groups and just want to piggyback on other's, that's entirely on them.

Blaming other's for making their own groups catering to their own interest and playstyle which they can't join, rather than just making their own, is imo incredibly entitled.

And sure, if you are an unproficient player trying to get in it looks rude when a group you are trying to join doesn't accept you, and you might think that you can carry your weight and that it's unfair. But just consider that this very same group you are trying to join already heard that 80+ times, and the vast majority of those times went absolutely horrible when they gave the person a shot, ruining their day and wasting their time, again and again.

Can anyone really blame them for just wanting to have a good time? Even more so now without things like consumables to carry for weaker players, and no KP to gauge rough experience levels, it's just a really bad deal to pug.

But to attribute malicious intend to that or to blame hardcore vets for that situation is imo really misguided and not helping anyone. Nor is driving those players out of the game going to make the content more populated or accessible for anyone.

It's just going to leave it dead.

> @"Jilora.9524" said:

> And if it's only .5 percent of the player base then this change doesn't affect many players at all except those who got clears but can't anymore because consumables are gone. And if you can't clear content w/o consumables then you shouldn't be doing that content anyway let alone locking others out

I mean, sure, you can just say that, but why? Why make the change in the first place then if it has such little effect (and the one it does have is mostly negative to the population)? Who is actually helped with that and what is the goal with that design decision?

"If you can't clear CM's without consumables, GTFO" doesn't seem like the inclusive welcoming effect Anet was going for, no?

Making the content harder, less flexible/interactive and interesting and increasing toxicity in that environment just, to me, doesn't seem what they were going for.

> @"Jilora.9524" said:

> > @"Asum.4960" said:

> > > @"Jilora.9524" said:

> > > > @"Nairolf.7024" said:

> > > > > @"Jilora.9524" said:

> > > > > Yes this change hurts newer players when they get up to CM but the newbies aren't bring rocks and planks in t1-t4. It would only be required later when they pass all the tests and get allowed into the high tier groups then they would be told hey you can't join unless you bring these rocks.

> > > > > It ain't hurting newbies and I doubt any of you CM players gaf about how this may hurt newbies in the future. You rock hoppas just want it reverted to easy mode but the fake concern is cute

> > > >

> > > > It's not a fake concern : I like to solo dungeons and cc cons where usefull for that. I like to help new players in lower fractals tier and cc cons where usefull there too.

> > > >

> > > > If it's OP then just balance it. Don't remove things nor make them useless...

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Ok maybe your concern was real but this was like the 5th but but new players will suffer. Maybe you while helping lower tiers bring these cons to help you help them but I doubt there's teams of pugs in lower levels throwing rocks. It affects the cm runners the most because it was easier with cons but they will adjust and new players w/o these cons will learn by progression and might get to a point when they hit 98 and just can't get over the hump to cms and won't have the but hey you can all buy 50 rocks to get over the hump which was really dumb anyway. Not all content is meant for everyone. They just closed a loophole that allowed some to do content higher then their skill and rightly so

> >

> > Theoretically I agree that people should just have to learn how to CC, and I also personally think consumables were a hassle to use in most scanarios.

> > That said, one thing to keep in mind is that maybe about <0.5% of the whole playerbase is skilled enough to clear this content, and even many of those have been carried by others with consumables and such.

> >

> > Out of (last I checked) 6000 people with DwD, how many are left being able to clear the content well without consumables? 1000-3000 players in the whole game across all regions who didn't just buy it or got carried by other's partially with consumables?

> > Good luck pugging that. This content just got a whole lot less accessible.

> >

> > Considering all my guilds, communities and statics quit as well, changes like this especially makes me not want to come back to the content myself, especially since it likely means having to be a kitten and repeatedly kick people who can't CC over and over in a grueling and fairly toxic process until finding some of the very few people who can clear the content well (or giving up in frustration), rather than just being able to bite the bullet and whipping out some consumables to carry and being able to move on.

> >

> > If you think (new and carried old) players will suddenly just learn how to do it and improve because they have to, rather than just butting their heads against a wall and wipe and give up, then you have a very different experience with pugging and trying to coach new players than I do.

> >

> > The amount of actual high end players who take pleasure in actually learning, adjusting and improving and can crush this content fairly easily like us is a lot smaller than you may think, which isn't surprising considering how little content catering to those players to attract or keep them around we had over the years.

> >

> > For people who still have their statics around, yea sure, who cares (on a personal level). But in terms of actually pugging and life of the content as a whole, these recent changes have been a pretty big oof.

>

> Yeah but should we really be able to easily pugs cms. I mean ya you need huge improvement from t2-t3 t3-t4 and them cms. Go run t2 or 3 with pugs trying for the fractal weekly and you see just how bad the population is. Now you can easily get carried thru t3 but once t4 hits then cms you basically can't play lol ima play any class for fun which you can thru those tiers you almost have to start swapping to the 4 or 5 carry type classes. So, new players will have to find decent players and start forming statics just like most of you have done. It's just the talent pool to chose from is lower. I like to play what I like not conform and many players are the same way but in order to go to cms you need t adjust improve join a guild maybe or start a static now which I see no issue in doing. Some players joining pugs throwing rocks to beat content again allowed players to not learn and get carried by consumables or consumable and better players. It thins the herd an already thin herd. Adjust or skip harder content. At least now theres no extra cheese involved.

> Next move to further separate skill level is anet will block mechanic skips so even if you 100-20 on the 1st mechanic it resets to 75 and you must do each mechanic not bypass stacking 7 sb or power chronos etc. That's raids tho.

Considering we are speaking about less than 0.5% of the playerbase (depending on how many people are not on efficiency likely much lower) being able to clear the content, I don't know if saying people can easily PuG CM's is applicable, even with things like CC consumables.

And while I absolutely recommend statics and communities, especially to newer players trying to learn, I don't think making LFG just pretty much useless and unviable to form groups with that can clear the content is a good idea. LFG, at least imo, shouldn't just be an advertising platform for sellers - but be a viable way to form groups regardless of skill level, with a proper way for each player to filter according to their own.

You are saying that "the talent pool to choose from just is lower" very flippantly, when it's already been critically low for years now and needed to go in the opposite direction, especially after literally years of no new content.

Imo what Fractals needed is a proper official KP system, like progressing Title achievements, giving out new Titles at something like 1-5-10-20 clears for people to matchmake with.

Things like the consumable "unintended clunky gameplay" could have much better been solved by making them a Novelty which players can slot in and use via hotkey without having to have the inventory open, etc.

There were so many options though to make this content more accessible, which was the goal with these changes and which the content desperately needs if it should warrant further development due to having a healthy population, without taking away all the fun intricacies that made Fractals unique and fun, and actually helped people to matchmake more accurately to avoid toxicity due to different players with different skill levels and expectations clashing.

Yet Anet instead is both dumbing the game down, making it less interesting for Veterans, continually taking away from the high end experience, while at the same time making the content far less accessible and more toxic for new and less proficient players.

That's just a bad move on all fronts, and the only ones celebrating or crying for those changes in the first place are those who have no idea about the community of that content and the content itself, which unfortunately somehow seems to include the devs.

Fractals where fun and unique because of all the cheese you could do in that content, it rewards player creativity, dedication, knowledge as well as proficiency and gives them agency.

Stripping all that away for a bland clinical experience that only 0.1% of the player base can do is helping no one, and I say that even as someone who is in that 0.1%.

It always goes: Anet introduces a problem -> players find an imperfect solution to the problem -> Anet takes away the solution because it's not perfect/is unintended -> players are stuck with the problem -> Anet never goes back to actually address the problem and players grow frustrated/leave due to not having access to any solutions anymore, no matter how good or bad.

That's just not sustainable, as the numbers show.

> @"Jilora.9524" said:

> > @"Nairolf.7024" said:

> > > @"Jilora.9524" said:

> > > Yes this change hurts newer players when they get up to CM but the newbies aren't bring rocks and planks in t1-t4. It would only be required later when they pass all the tests and get allowed into the high tier groups then they would be told hey you can't join unless you bring these rocks.

> > > It ain't hurting newbies and I doubt any of you CM players gaf about how this may hurt newbies in the future. You rock hoppas just want it reverted to easy mode but the fake concern is cute

> >

> > It's not a fake concern : I like to solo dungeons and cc cons where usefull for that. I like to help new players in lower fractals tier and cc cons where usefull there too.

> >

> > If it's OP then just balance it. Don't remove things nor make them useless...

> >

> >

>

> Ok maybe your concern was real but this was like the 5th but but new players will suffer. Maybe you while helping lower tiers bring these cons to help you help them but I doubt there's teams of pugs in lower levels throwing rocks. It affects the cm runners the most because it was easier with cons but they will adjust and new players w/o these cons will learn by progression and might get to a point when they hit 98 and just can't get over the hump to cms and won't have the but hey you can all buy 50 rocks to get over the hump which was really dumb anyway. Not all content is meant for everyone. They just closed a loophole that allowed some to do content higher then their skill and rightly so

Theoretically I agree that people should just have to learn how to CC, and I also personally think consumables were a hassle to use in most scanarios.

That said, one thing to keep in mind is that maybe about <0.5% of the whole playerbase is skilled enough to clear this content, and even many of those have been carried by others with consumables and such.

Out of (last I checked) 6000 people with DwD, how many are left being able to clear the content well without consumables? 1000-3000 players in the whole game across all regions who didn't just buy it or got carried by other's partially with consumables?

Good luck pugging that. This content just got a whole lot less accessible.

Considering all my guilds, communities and statics quit as well, changes like this especially makes me not want to come back to the content myself, especially since it likely means having to be a kitten and repeatedly kick people who can't CC over and over in a grueling and fairly toxic process until finding some of the very few people who can clear the content well (or giving up in frustration), rather than just being able to bite the bullet and whipping out some consumables to carry and being able to move on.

If you think (new and carried old) players will suddenly just learn how to do it and improve because they have to, rather than just butting their heads against a wall and wipe and give up, then you have a very different experience with pugging and trying to coach new players than I do.

The amount of actual high end players who take pleasure in actually learning, adjusting and improving and can crush this content fairly easily like us is a lot smaller than you may think, which isn't surprising considering how little content catering to those players to attract or keep them around we had over the years.

For people who still have their statics around, yea sure, who cares (on a personal level). But in terms of actually pugging and life of the content as a whole, these recent changes have been a pretty big oof.

> @"Jilora.9524" said:

> > @"Asum.4960" said:

> > > @"Jilora.9524" said:

> > > > @"Asum.4960" said:

> > > > > @"Jilora.9524" said:

> > > > > > @"Asum.4960" said:

> > > > > > > @"Jilora.9524" said:

> > > > > > > Do you honestly think a wooden plank or a rock should do more CC then actual skills. You cause this issues when you start demanding them in lfg which puts the usually oblivious anet to go hey wait these guys aren't passing content in a way we find legit. As always tho elitist tears are always the yummiest

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Do you think Pot's and Food should give a much greater damage boost than the majority of Traits? I hear those have been demanded almost universally in LFG too!

> > > > > > The Choya tonic also gives a greater speed boost than any skill, trait or boon in the game. Clearly that should be removed too.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Where is the line here, and how dumbed down does the game have to get before the people complaining about everything that makes them have to put in effort and make their own groups is removed before they are happy? And will there still anyone to play with at that point?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Is knowing your rotations, which drastically increases your DPS over randomly pressing buttons, the next "discriminatory" thing after all those which has to be removed by giving everybody just an auto attack or smth?

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm sure if everyone started writing bring yo Choya's anet might notice. Anet draws the line. And the food and pot comparison is just silly and is diff then requiring me to go buy out a vendor of planks and rocks

> > > >

> > > > So buying and demanding food consumables for a DPS boost is completely different to buying and demanding CC consumables for a CC boost. Got it.

> > >

> > > Do they sell effing rocks and planks in the fractal area?

> >

> > They don't sell food there either.

> >

> > > @"Jilora.9524" said:

> > > > @"Asum.4960" said:

> > > > > @"Jilora.9524" said:>

> > > > > @"Jilora.9524" said:

> > > > > As always tho elitist tears are always the yummiest

> > > >

> > > > Right, once all those "elitist" players who enjoy the game as originally designed and just want to play their way with like minded players, enjoying all the intricacies of the game without harming anyone else since they can just make their own groups, are gone, and only people like you who actively revel in the displeasure and disappointment of others, toxicity truly will have been defeated.

> > >

> > > The tears thing was a joke. Only an elitist would get offended so hard tho. Yeah anet put rocks and planks on vendors and they were designed to have 5 guys in their hardest content swinging away on end bosses with the best rewards. It's baffling to me how you think that any of what you just said can't be still accomplished w/o said rocks and planks. Now you are doomed to never play with like minded players again.

> >

> > Yea, no. I'm not offended, just deeply disappointed with the direction the game has been going for while now since I really enjoyed it, being with the franchise since Prophecies 15+ years ago.

> > And to reiterate, I'm personally not a fan of consumables and outside of things like Artsariiv, where without them you just have to stand around uselessly and wait for cooldowns, rarely used them.

> > I would rather join or make a group not requiring them than one that does, and personally rather just adjust my build to contain more or less CC depending on demand.

> > That doesn't mean that I can't defend them being valuable as option and added depth to the game on principle.

> >

> > Things is, this isn't just about purely optional CC consumables being removed - which were mostly used and nice to help out less proficient players, carrying CC for them to provide a smooth run, but a general trend Anet has being going down over the last year or two especially, in which we get to see next to no content added to the game, while pretty much every other patch takes things out of the game that people have been using and enjoying for years without issue, for incredibly poorly thought out reasons of increasing accessibility, which pretty much always, predictably, backfired.

> >

> > The game gets more simplified, less interactive and interesting by the patch, revenue and likely population is continuously dropping, and meanwhile the people who rather complain and want to take toys away from others rather than getting their own and making their own groups and play the way they like, in who's name this is all done, still just do that - forever moving the goalpost in complaining about what "toxic elitist" thing is barring their entry into content that just isn't for them, no matter what steps Anet takes, while overtime destroying the content for those who did actually enjoy and play it regularly or even daily.

> >

> > Anet is sacrificing the quality and complexity of the game and it's content, and the majority of the palyerbase which actually enjoyed it, for a vocal minority who was, is and never will be actually playing that content at large, and are just using everything hardcore as scapegoat.

> >

> > Players who complained about Arc Templates and celebrated their removal for Anet's native lacklustre solution at large stated they themselves didn't want or need Templates, ultimately they just didn't want other's to have something they didn't care to get. As a price, many players who relied on and enjoyed proper Templates quit.

> >

> > Players who complained about KP and celebrated their removal are now that they are gone not going hard on playing Fractals, they just didn't like the idea of it and something not super easily being accessible to them (if they are actually interested in it or not), and just wanted others not to have that option, while moving on to the next thing that apparently locks them out of the content (like doing a 5 minute heart event and buying a consumable CC item). As price, many players who enjoyed and relied on such a group finding tool quit.

> >

> > Now CC consumables, which were used since years, are gone too - once again taking something away from that content and how it was played and enjoyed by many for years.

> >

> > Is the world whole now? Is everybody playing Fractals en masse now? Ofc not, there's got to be another thing to complain about next that is apparently keeping people form that content.

> > Anet fails to realise that they can't please everybody. Hardcore content is always going to primarily for more hardcore players. By repeatedly dumbing down the game/content to appeal to those who aren't actually interested in it anyway and just don't like others having their fun that they can't or want to have, they are just gonna be left with dead content appealing to no one eventually.

>

> Well you seem to have a more in depth issue with gw2 as a whole. These changes which anet implemented don't help any newer players or those in t2-t3 and someday working up but it still was silly that 100cm were using items like those and again the spam in lfg probably caused anet to do this. You will be fine or anyone who's does t4 and cms everyday. You just might take longer. Some of you are way under 45m for a full run and the amount of loot for that time is high. Maybe that's the reason for the changes. Idk.

I mostly quit PvE since everybody I played with quit and I'm not satisfied with the amount (or rather lack of) new content and all the little changes like this, chipping away at all the little intricacies that made the content fun for me (from having highly specialised fun builds per encounter with Arc Templates, to fall damage trait skips, to consumables, to group finding, etc.), so I'm personally not really affected by these changes anymore, although they are still a shame to see.

Ofc I would still be completely fine playing the content, it's just progressively less interesting to do so, and I don't really blame all the ex players in old guild Discords just going "welp, I'm glad I already quit" upon seeing all these changes, taking stuff out of the game - rather than adding new stuff and winning players back.

> @"Jilora.9524" said:

> It's not that I agree with these last 2 fractal changes it kinda is they both make sense to try and stop this shady cc thing and try and stop players from be excluded from content. Both these changes probably won't help because speed clearers and so called elitists will adjust but pugs will be hurt more.

That's exactly the thing. Long term highly proficient players, especially those part of statics still, aren't really affected. They might quit over time bc the game just keeps getting less interesting, but in terms of being able to clear the content easily, they don't need KP, consumables or anything.

These things just used to make the content more fun and interactive and clears faster, but were never necessary.

The ones really being hurt by those changes are those who cry for them and then celebrate them the most. As more hardcore players quit or move into statics the content becomes less and less accessible and lively on the LFG, and I doubt anyone is helped if all that's left there eventually are sellers, and even those players who still are fine with carrying less proficient players on LFG won't have tools like CC consumables to do so anymore, eventually just giving up after repeated wipes which they simply cannot carry over alone anymore by digging deep into these optional systems.

> @"Jilora.9524" said:

> > @"Asum.4960" said:

> > > @"Jilora.9524" said:

> > > > @"Asum.4960" said:

> > > > > @"Jilora.9524" said:

> > > > > Do you honestly think a wooden plank or a rock should do more CC then actual skills. You cause this issues when you start demanding them in lfg which puts the usually oblivious anet to go hey wait these guys aren't passing content in a way we find legit. As always tho elitist tears are always the yummiest

> > > >

> > > > Do you think Pot's and Food should give a much greater damage boost than the majority of Traits? I hear those have been demanded almost universally in LFG too!

> > > > The Choya tonic also gives a greater speed boost than any skill, trait or boon in the game. Clearly that should be removed too.

> > > >

> > > > Where is the line here, and how dumbed down does the game have to get before the people complaining about everything that makes them have to put in effort and make their own groups is removed before they are happy? And will there still anyone to play with at that point?

> > > >

> > > > Is knowing your rotations, which drastically increases your DPS over randomly pressing buttons, the next "discriminatory" thing after all those which has to be removed by giving everybody just an auto attack or smth?

> > >

> > > I'm sure if everyone started writing bring yo Choya's anet might notice. Anet draws the line. And the food and pot comparison is just silly and is diff then requiring me to go buy out a vendor of planks and rocks

> >

> > So buying and demanding food consumables for a DPS boost is completely different to buying and demanding CC consumables for a CC boost. Got it.

>

> Do they sell effing rocks and planks in the fractal area?

They don't sell food there either.

> @"Jilora.9524" said:

> > @"Asum.4960" said:

> > > @"Jilora.9524" said:>

> > > @"Jilora.9524" said:

> > > As always tho elitist tears are always the yummiest

> >

> > Right, once all those "elitist" players who enjoy the game as originally designed and just want to play their way with like minded players, enjoying all the intricacies of the game without harming anyone else since they can just make their own groups, are gone, and only people like you who actively revel in the displeasure and disappointment of others, toxicity truly will have been defeated.

>

> The tears thing was a joke. Only an elitist would get offended so hard tho. Yeah anet put rocks and planks on vendors and they were designed to have 5 guys in their hardest content swinging away on end bosses with the best rewards. It's baffling to me how you think that any of what you just said can't be still accomplished w/o said rocks and planks. Now you are doomed to never play with like minded players again.

Yea, no. I'm not offended, just deeply disappointed with the direction the game has been going for while now since I really enjoyed it, being with the franchise since Prophecies 15+ years ago.

And to reiterate, I'm personally not a fan of consumables and outside of things like Artsariiv, where without them you just have to stand around uselessly and wait for cooldowns, rarely used them.

I would rather join or make a group not requiring them than one that does, and personally rather just adjust my build to contain more or less CC depending on demand.

That doesn't mean that I can't defend them being valuable as option and added depth to the game on principle.

Things is, this isn't just about purely optional CC consumables being removed - which were mostly used and nice to help out less proficient players, carrying CC for them to provide a smooth run, but a general trend Anet has being going down over the last year or two especially, in which we get to see next to no content added to the game, while pretty much every other patch takes things out of the game that people have been using and enjoying for years without issue, for incredibly poorly thought out reasons of increasing accessibility, which pretty much always, predictably, backfired.

The game gets more simplified, less interactive and interesting by the patch, revenue and likely population is continuously dropping, and meanwhile the people who rather complain and want to take toys away from others rather than getting their own and making their own groups and play the way they like, in who's name this is all done, still just do that - forever moving the goalpost in complaining about what "toxic elitist" thing is barring their entry into content that just isn't for them, no matter what steps Anet takes, while overtime destroying the content for those who did actually enjoy and play it regularly or even daily.

Anet is sacrificing the quality and complexity of the game and it's content, and the majority of the palyerbase which actually enjoyed it, for a vocal minority who was, is and never will be actually playing that content at large, and are just using everything hardcore as scapegoat.

Players who complained about Arc Templates and celebrated their removal for Anet's native lacklustre solution at large stated they themselves didn't want or need Templates, ultimately they just didn't want other's to have something they didn't care to get. As a price, many players who relied on and enjoyed proper Templates quit.

Players who complained about KP and celebrated their removal are now that they are gone not going hard on playing Fractals, they just didn't like the idea of it and something not super easily being accessible to them (if they are actually interested in it or not), and just wanted others not to have that option, while moving on to the next thing that apparently locks them out of the content (like doing a 5 minute heart event and buying a consumable CC item). As price, many players who enjoyed and relied on such a group finding tool quit.

Now CC consumables, which were used since years, are gone too - once again taking something away from that content and how it was played and enjoyed by many for years.

Is the world whole now? Is everybody playing Fractals en masse now? Ofc not, there's got to be another thing to complain about next that is apparently keeping people form that content.

Anet fails to realise that they can't please everybody. Hardcore content is always going to primarily for more hardcore players. By repeatedly dumbing down the game/content to appeal to those who aren't actually interested in it anyway and just don't like others having their fun that they can't or want to have, they are just gonna be left with dead content appealing to no one eventually.

> @"Jilora.9524" said:

> > @"Asum.4960" said:

> > > @"Jilora.9524" said:

> > > Do you honestly think a wooden plank or a rock should do more CC then actual skills. You cause this issues when you start demanding them in lfg which puts the usually oblivious anet to go hey wait these guys aren't passing content in a way we find legit. As always tho elitist tears are always the yummiest

> >

> > Do you think Pot's and Food should give a much greater damage boost than the majority of Traits? I hear those have been demanded almost universally in LFG too!

> > The Choya tonic also gives a greater speed boost than any skill, trait or boon in the game. Clearly that should be removed too.

> >

> > Where is the line here, and how dumbed down does the game have to get before the people complaining about everything that makes them have to put in effort and make their own groups is removed before they are happy? And will there still anyone to play with at that point?

> >

> > Is knowing your rotations, which drastically increases your DPS over randomly pressing buttons, the next "discriminatory" thing after all those which has to be removed by giving everybody just an auto attack or smth?

>

> I'm sure if everyone started writing bring yo Choya's anet might notice. Anet draws the line. And the food and pot comparison is just silly and is diff then requiring me to go buy out a vendor of planks and rocks

So buying and demanding food consumables for a DPS boost is completely different to buying and demanding CC consumables for a CC boost. Got it.

> @"Jilora.9524" said:

> Do you honestly think a wooden plank or a rock should do more CC then actual skills. You cause this issues when you start demanding them in lfg which puts the usually oblivious anet to go hey wait these guys aren't passing content in a way we find legit.

Do you think Pot's and Food should give a much greater damage boost than the majority of Traits? I hear those have been demanded almost universally in LFG too!

The Choya tonic also gives a greater speed boost than any skill, trait or boon in the game. Clearly that should be removed too.

Where is the line here, and how dumbed down does the game have to get before the people complaining about everything that makes them have to put in effort and make their own groups is removed before they are happy? And will there still anyone to play with at that point?

Is knowing your rotations, which drastically increases your DPS over randomly pressing buttons, the next "discriminatory" thing after all those which has to be removed by giving everybody just an auto attack or smth?

> @"Jilora.9524" said:

> As always tho elitist tears are always the yummiest

Right, once all those "elitist" players who enjoy the game as originally designed and just want to play their way with like minded players, enjoying all the intricacies of the game without harming anyone else since they can just make their own groups, are gone, and only people like you who actively revel in the displeasure and disappointment of others, toxicity truly will have been defeated.

> @"Saniyah.1984" said:

> > @"Asum.4960" said:

> > > @"Saniyah.1984" said:

> > > > @"Asum.4960" said:

> > > > No more proper templates to quickly adapt and play how you want, no more proper KP to find and join the players/groups you want to, and now more consumables as optional added depth to substitute builds and increase variety.

> > > >

> > > > I've never seen a company so hell bent on killing off their hardcore communities who love their game.

> > > >

> > > > Even as someone who generally didn't enjoy playing with consumables (save for some CC only exceptions like speeding up Artsariiv), this is just yet another patch taking ultimately optional things out of the game for really no proper reason, rather than adding anything of value to it. Something that's been a trend for quite some time now.

> > >

> > > I think, it's because people started demanding consumables in lfg. So its a bit their own fault. When they removed KP people should have guessed it was to prevented gate keeping yet they made worse gate keeping with forcing ppl to used consumables even alac and HB even tho they can just used staff 5 and sanctuary to do plenty of cc, but nope that 1K more dps was all that counted even if only few ppl in lfg even reack 20K dps that's totally carry

> >

> > Anyone is free not to join those groups or make their own ones, same with KP.

> >

> > Even as someone who long quit playing this game in any hardcore capacity, I just find it silly to repeatedly punish the few remaining hardcore players making their own groups with their own requirements, just because others are too lazy to make their own groups not demanding any KP or consumables.

> >

> > Not every group has to be for everybody, regardless of skill, experience or willingness to put in effort. That's such a silly utopia to push for. No one not wanting to play with consumables is harmed by someone else making a group demanding it, and the idea that everybody is just going to make "Everybody welcome, lets take 3h to clear this 45m daily content" groups once KP, Consumables, Tonics, Pot's, Food, AR, etc. is all removed from the game to make it more "accessible" is ridiculous and imo misguided.

> >

> > It's just going to leave the content dead after all those most invested players who enjoyed all those intricacies have left.

> The groups you talked about are statics(should be)

> The problem was it becme and lfg requirement. that meant no choice

> Also the groups i joined without consumables are ussually better than with and 3 hours is super rare for me.

The choice is to make your own group without those requirements, wait for a group not having those requirements, or to fullfill those requirements.

Consumables have been a part of Fractals for years and years now, clearly they were not the problem here, nor were KP before them, nor are Pot's and Food after them, and (Choya etc.)Tonics beyond that.

At this point Anet is just mandating what people are allowed to look for in their own LFG's or not like some authoritarian regime, in the most heavy handed way possible, by removing things they don't like being asked for from the game altogether. Everything further than playing at or asking for the lowest common denominator is outlawed.

That just doesn't seem reasonable to me.

If I don't want to play with consumables, I just make a group not asking for it. What's the issue with that?

For those who do want to play with consumables though, now there isn't any choice. Previously there was.

> @"Saniyah.1984" said:

> LFG groups are NOT hardcore lolol

Right, the ~30m , preclear, Reset 750KP+ LFG speedrunners and such are super casual ofc, and people aren't allowed to play the way they want and with whom they want outside of statics. Makes sense. That's why it's called the "Looking for casual group system", and not LFG, right?

I guess I didn't get the memo that hardcore players weren't allowed to utilise the LFG, or if they do, by definition aren't hardcore.

> @"Saniyah.1984" said:

> > @"Asum.4960" said:

> > No more proper templates to quickly adapt and play how you want, no more proper KP to find and join the players/groups you want to, and now more consumables as optional added depth to substitute builds and increase variety.

> >

> > I've never seen a company so hell bent on killing off their hardcore communities who love their game.

> >

> > Even as someone who generally didn't enjoy playing with consumables (save for some CC only exceptions like speeding up Artsariiv), this is just yet another patch taking ultimately optional things out of the game for really no proper reason, rather than adding anything of value to it. Something that's been a trend for quite some time now.

>

> I think, it's because people started demanding consumables in lfg. So its a bit their own fault. When they removed KP people should have guessed it was to prevented gate keeping yet they made worse gate keeping with forcing ppl to used consumables even alac and HB even tho they can just used staff 5 and sanctuary to do plenty of cc, but nope that 1K more dps was all that counted even if only few ppl in lfg even reack 20K dps that's totally carry

Anyone is free not to join those groups or make their own ones, same with KP.

Even as someone who long quit playing this game in any hardcore capacity, I just find it silly to repeatedly punish the few remaining hardcore players making their own groups with their own requirements, just because others are too lazy to make their own groups not demanding any KP or consumables.

Not every group has to be for everybody, regardless of skill, experience or willingness to put in effort. That's such a silly utopia to push for. No one not wanting to play with consumables is harmed by someone else making a group demanding it, and the idea that everybody is just going to make "Everybody welcome, lets take 3h to clear this 45m daily content" groups once KP, Consumables, Tonics, Pot's, Food, AR, etc. is all removed from the game to make it more "accessible" is ridiculous and imo misguided.

It's just going to leave the content dead after all those most invested players who enjoyed all those intricacies have left.

No more proper templates to quickly adapt and play how you want, no more proper KP to find and join the players/groups you want to, and now no more consumables as optional added depth to substitute builds and increase variety.

I've never seen a company so hell bent on killing off their hardcore communities who love their game.

Even as someone who generally didn't enjoy playing with consumables (save for some CC only exceptions like speeding up Artsariiv), this is just yet another patch taking ultimately optional things out of the game for really no proper reason, rather than adding anything of value to it. Something that's been a trend for quite some time now.