Anet, what is your actual intention with Manifest Sand Shade?

[Lucifirius.3196]

> @Zefiris.8297 said:

> > @mygamingid.5816 said:

> > In open world events, barriers have been great.

>

> Open world events are so easy that you do not NEED barriers in the first place. Balancing around the open world and ignoring raid balance would be insane.

 

Barrier is largely garbage for most uses. It doesn't last long enough or have enough strength for it to be worth more than direct healing.

[Aktium.9506]

> @Sublimatio.6981 said:

> - **Necromancer**: 1 projectile defense, boon corrupt, condi removal, barrier, minor might sharing on extremely small radius

vampiric auro tho

gotta get that sick 1% party dps

[mygamingid.5816]

> @Zefiris.8297 said:

> > @mygamingid.5816 said:

> > In open world events, barriers have been great.

>

> Open world events are so easy that you do not NEED barriers in the first place. Balancing around the open world and ignoring raid balance would be insane.

 

Under all PoF and almost all HoT events, the bosses at least move around and even trash mobs get out of AOEs. That's a lot more than can be said of raids.

 

That said, core events were pretty easy as long as enough people show up. HoT & PoF see a lot more fails in major events, even with large groups. One PoF encounter in particular has a breakbar requirement that prevents a health reset and the creature often enters a phased state when the breakbar is up. That leaves a tiny window where everyone has to be on their game with CCs ready. The creature moves a lot, too, mitigating the mindless stack mechanics that you can get away with in raids.

[Jaya.2760]

> @dzeRnumbrd.6129 said:

> > @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

>

> > Keep in mind that the specialization probably won't hit previous DPS potential (as it has heavy support built in), but we do intend for it to go *up* from where it's currently at.

>

 

>

> I really think it would be best if you make Sand Savant baseline across Scourge which would cut back on the target cap and make it easier to balance Scourge (without the worst case scenario of 3 shades).

>

> Once Sand Savant becomes baseline you then create a new Barrier related GM trait (see below) that actually buffs Barrier into being relevant and actually gives us some of this "heavy support".

>

> Barrier related Grandmaster trait:

> * Baseline barrier HP increased by 33% (6671 HP on Desert Shroud instead of 5016 HP)

> * 100% longer duration before Barrier HP starts decaying (lasts longer before decaying)

> * Barrier HP decays 100% slower (decays much slower)

>

>

>

 

Although i like your idea, i'm afraight it wouldn't solve the problem of "being in the meta", because necro would still not give any of the buffs to a group which are "must have", like GotL, Banners, Spirits etc. So why not:

 

Barrier related Grandmaster trait:

Baseline barrier HP increased by 33%

Whenever you grant Barrier, you also grant 1 stack of Grace of the Land

and/or

while under the effect of Barrier allies have a 75%chance to cause 3s burning on hit 8sec cd (simulating sunspirit)

 

Greatest problem with this would be that "Grace of the land" thematically doesn't fit to a sand-themed Elite-spec like Scourge.

[Zefiris.8297]

> @mygamingid.5816 said:

> > @Zefiris.8297 said:

> > > @mygamingid.5816 said:

> > > In open world events, barriers have been great.

> >

> > Open world events are so easy that you do not NEED barriers in the first place. Balancing around the open world and ignoring raid balance would be insane.

>

> Under all PoF and almost all HoT events, the bosses at least move around and even trash mobs get out of AOEs. That's a lot more than can be said of raids.

 

That's cute, but it's still completely irrelevant to what I said: Barriers are not needed or useful in open world events. You don't get hit in the first place.

 

>Greatest problem with this would be that "Grace of the land" thematically doesn't fit to a sand-themed Elite-spec like Scourge.

 

There is an extremely thematic group support ability that would fit necromancer to a T:

**An actual armor debuff**. Buffs group damage as a whole, has different utility depending on the boss, and can help all necro specs while fitting all of them, with us corrupting our foe's defenses.

[borrok.9267]

> @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> > @kKagari.6804 said:

> > What I'm saying is:

> > **If the interaction between MSS and DS is fixed, there should be no reason for the striking component on MSS to not stack.**

>

> If these interactions stack together, then we have to assume that the maximum damage potential is with three shades stacked on top of one-another. This is not the intent of the specialization, as the design is for it to 'play the field', where each shade delivers the maximum potential without needing to be stacked. Now that the stacking bug has been fixed, we've got potential to bring the single-shade interaction to a more respectable level. Keep in mind that the specialization probably won't hit previous DPS potential (as it has heavy support built in), but we do intend for it to go *up* from where it's currently at.

 

Heavy support? Where? I see some, but heavy? Nope, not here in necroville.

[Tobias.8632]

> @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> Manifest Sand Shade is not expected to activate on each pulse of Desert Shroud, but instead activate on each activation of a shade ability. The previous functionality, while strong, was unintentional. We'll be looking to add some power back into the kit in the next balance iteration (which was *not* today :P ), but needed to fix this bug as soon as possible. We'll also probably remove the 'spend some of your life force' from the description of MSS.

> Thanks for the well-worded question!

>

> -Karl

 

So, scourge being a viable DPS class was completely unintentional, and the balance team might get around to fixing it later, just like they were going to fix reaper damage after the nerf to jagged horrors, because that happened and didn't leave necromancer in a worthless space for raids for the better part of 2 years, right?

 

How about next time if something isn't working as intended but is performing reasonably, you wait until you can deliver a complete fix to change anything, instead of putting a significant portion of the playerbase back "on the table" for the next few weeks? months? years? How long is it going to be before I can play my main in raids again?

[Tobias.8632]

> @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

>Keep in mind that the specialization probably won't hit previous DPS potential (as it has heavy support built in)

 

What support? You need to come to terms with the fact that nobody, ever, in any game mode, gives a shit about barrier. It is completely worthless and scourge brings nothing else to the group.

 

Why is warrior allowed to have extreme damage support with might output and banners, and have insane personal DPS potential at the same time, but necro is not allowed to combine support and dps?

[Swiftwynd.1685]

> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

 

> Ventari Revenant, Tempest, and Druid all do a vastly better job than Scourge on that front.

 

Actually, I play all four, and Scourge is in fact the best at keeping a group alive, full stop. Ventari's healing per second is superior, but Scourge can apply it in a wider area and has the burst damage prevention and superior condition removal/conversion, and better might stacking while doing so. Tempest is the best HPS across a wide area, but doesnt remove condis as well and does not revive as easily, and if it does, it doesnt have access to the earth traits for protection on auras. Druid is the worst at keeping their group alive but obviously is meta due to its damage enhancements.

 

AoE 5 target reviving on a low recharge along with solid, consistent, area healing over time is extremely potent on raid support Scourge, and if their Greater Sand Shroud gets fixed and they can actually 10-target like advertised, then it will be just that more solid of a pick.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

So, with baddies, Scourge out-does Revenant, Tempest, and Druid, because you're falling back on the rez power of Scourge to make your argument. With players that know how to dodge, that's a lot of power that's irrelevant.

 

Revenant, Tempest, and Druid are all capable of removing large amounts of conditions. Yes, Scourge does more, but you know how many conditions need to be removed in PvE? Aside from a particular Fractal instability, the answer is "not much."

 

High healing/second > Barrier. "but you can't overheal Barrier" It's less likely to, but an "overheal" isn't wasted. That's called a top-off. Writs and Scholar runes are now online with healing. Barrier doesn't help with that: you will still need to use healing after the barrier gets obliterated to re-activate those.

[Zefiris.8297]

> @Swiftwynd.1685 said:>

> AoE 5 target reviving on a low recharge along with solid, consistent, area healing over time is extremely potent on raid support Scourge, and if their Greater Sand Shroud gets fixed and they can actually 10-target like advertised, then it will be just that more solid of a pick.

 

Yes, it's all fine for training runs. But what if you want to do more than that? You still haven't answered that :/ You're saying scourge has better might stacking than other healers, but even training runs take two cPS for that instead, so might stacking isn't even a factor.

 

Take your own server that you're running. Are you telling me that any run that happens there would happily take a scourge in support gear instead of a druid or a cps? Sounds quite paradisic! I'm on two training discords myself, and just a quick look at raid signups shows those asking for cPS quite specifically, so might stacking on scourges isn't a thing. Would they really accept a scourge for the Healer spot? I wonder.

 

>Yes, Scourge does more, but you know how many conditions need to be removed in PvE? Aside from a particular Fractal instability, the answer is "not much."

 

Well, there's always Sloth, that one has a lot of conditions. Matthias too.

[SidewayS.3789]

Karl's comment show how incompetent devs are in this game.LOL at Scourge being HEAVY SUPPORT. No wonder the balance in this game sux so so bad.Wanna an advice Karl? Just delete this class and move on. It will the best thing for you guys, and for us, will be the mark to change our mains. Simple as that.

[Swiftwynd.1685]

> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> So, with baddies, Scourge out-does Revenant, Tempest, and Druid, because you're falling back on the rez power of Scourge to make your argument. With players that know how to dodge, that's a lot of power that's irrelevant.

>

> Revenant, Tempest, and Druid are all capable of removing large amounts of conditions. Yes, Scourge does more, but you know how many conditions need to be removed in PvE? Aside from a particular Fractal instability, the answer is "not much."

>

> High healing/second > Barrier. "but you can't overheal Barrier" It's less likely to, but an "overheal" isn't wasted. That's called a top-off. Writs and Scholar runes are now online with healing. Barrier doesn't help with that: you will still need to use healing after the barrier gets obliterated to re-activate those.

 

*shrug* call them baddies if you want, but I'd much rather have a support Scourge on Mathias/Sloth than a Druid. It just makes the runs go that much smoother if someone (yes, even experienced people in legendary armor) has a momentary laps of focus or something.

 

But what do I know, I'm just speaking from experience is all :open_mouth:

 

All I know is a kill is a kill, and a Support Scourge secures a kill against almost any kind of failure on most fights (barring KC/Gorse of course.)

 

Actual situations I've saved raids:

 

Wing 1: Good Use.

Vale Guardian: In a training run, lasted forever after several bad greens, and ended up finishing it after timer with 5 players alive. (still faster than resetting the fight and trying again).

 

Gorse the druid is worth it for damage since its just a dps dummy and entangle is handy.

 

Sabatha is a joke with this build, plenty of easy sustain, can ignore bombs out or recover fast if someone's asleep at the keyboard, and if someone is downed during flame wall you can easily pop them to safety. Easy to flack kite if needed.

 

Wing 2: Extremely High Use.

Sloth: Dear. God. The number of revives I've had on this fight that would have otherwise simply died during the poison drop off ... reviving people last second to pull their bodies off of the ground smash triple bolders ... removing stacks of condis due to a bad shake call ... removing fear if druid wasn't on point with their protect me.

 

Bandi Trio: Final bandit is a joke with this build, easily keeps everyone up during the chaos.

 

Mathias: had 3 downed players mid-Haduken targeted, F4'ed them to safety, we fished off the last 15% (was a training/mix experienced run). Great CC as well for breaks. Constant cleanse for Frost and Rain phases is super handy, and since im Minstrels, it actually results in a lot of nice, free boons. Using the portal for the Fire Phase or corruption drop offs / to get allies back in faster is a direct damage enhancement. Its really just such a good fight for this build that we use it every run now.

 

Wing 3: - Low use.

Escort is just Escort, handy on towers with fear, easily can solo hold towers of course.

 

KC - Druid preferred here since, again, a simple dps check boss, though Scourge's sustain is fine if your group has competent DPS to hit the 33% during burn phase. Being able to emergency revive people and providing solid break bar was handy on one kill though.

 

Xera - Very strong build here if people are newer. Its not really a gigantic dps race anyway on this unless doing middle only strat, which doesnt really save much time in the long run anyway.

 

Wing 4: Good Use.

 

Cairn - An absolute joy to use this build here. Sustain + easy revives if people fail mechanics, and I've had some cluuuutch saves reviving downed people AS they start to get knocked off the edge, you can prevent that :)

 

Overseer - no healing needed her usually so I just run damage and Epidemic

 

Samarog - same, very limited healing ever needed here, but if its a new group, the support build works great to give them time to learn the visual tells.

 

Deimos - not a very healing intensive fight really so not particularly useful here. That said, I've survived some very bad oil spreads using this if people make mistakes during trainings.

 

 

Long story short ... if you are wanting "speed runs" obviously it offers little there, but other than wing 3, it has strong uses on many fights.

 

Guess what? People, in general, aren't that good. They just aren't. Quantify and Snow Crows are not your standard raiders. They are exceptional. With average to decent raiders, a support Scourge actually offers a significantly amazing amount of utility and "anti screw-up" potential, and on the actual "hard boss" (Mathias) its Meta in our runs.

 

If the new wings are more "Mathias" type fights, in which surviving is of prime importance, then support Scourge will really be able to shine.

[Zefiris.8297]

So, would your server take a Scourge for a druid spot in general?

Would they do this for non-training runs?

 

I am not keeping on asking you this to be mean, it's a serious question based on my own experiences that suggested less so. I am one of the scourge players that originally wanted to support on the class (i am not even a fan of the DPS role!), yet never had the chance to try, because "not druid", that's why I am asking.

[silverdevilboy.3261]

> @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> > @kKagari.6804 said:

> > What I'm saying is:

> > **If the interaction between MSS and DS is fixed, there should be no reason for the striking component on MSS to not stack.**

>

> If these interactions stack together, then we have to assume that the maximum damage potential is with three shades stacked on top of one-another. This is not the intent of the specialization, as the design is for it to 'play the field', where each shade delivers the maximum potential without needing to be stacked. Now that the stacking bug has been fixed, we've got potential to bring the single-shade interaction to a more respectable level. Keep in mind that the specialization probably won't hit previous DPS potential (as it has heavy support built in), but we do intend for it to go *up* from where it's currently at.

 

But you don't get both. Ever. The support potential is competing with utilities and traits for DPS. The DPS scourge build provides almost no support at all, and you can't compromise nicely, because the best support traits compete with the best DPS traits.

 

That's like saying soulbeast is overtuned because it does top level DPS, but ranger has so much healing if you take druid.

 

You cannot hit close to those numbers and meaningfully generate might or barriers. If you're generating might you're doing less damage than warrior, if you're generating barriers you're generating less than druid heals and doing less damage than druid does.

 

I don't understand the logic behind needing to make necro do less DPS than other classes because it doesn't have to DPS. You can't change mid fight.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

Everyone is about "stacking 3 shades dps, hurr-durr", but no one says it can at best happen once every 45s because there's a vicious recharge on each shade you burn that way. No sand savant = 15s recharge per single shade. Not to mention that by doing this (3 shades stack) the enemy can just walk away and then you're really boned.

 

I'm totally for killing 3 shade stacking. Not because it's so OP, but because it's giving false sense of power and luring players into suicidal tactics.

 

> @Swiftwynd.1685 said:

 

> AoE 5 target reviving on a low recharge along with solid, consistent, area healing over time is extremely potent on raid support Scourge, and if their Greater Sand Shroud gets fixed and they can actually 10-target like advertised, then it will be just that more solid of a pick.

 

That would do nothing for transfusion which is a trait, not a shade skill. You'd need transfution to work both off yourself and greater shade, each cast being able to affect 5 ppl (so 10 in total) and with mechanic to avoid double stacking the heals on one player, while other that's still in range would get none.

 

[Kanto.1659]

When balance is done in Spreadsheet City instead of using actual game metrics.

[hoellenphoenix.1592]

We wont stay on the Top or the Best 3 DPS nope but to stand on the DPS list with 8k DPS from the first Place, is fail. You can nerf all classes that they do 30k-33k DPS or you must bring the Necro to 34k-36k. Or you buff the Reaper that he does enough DMG and build the Scouge for SUpport. i hope you know what i mean, sry for the bad english.

[felincyriac.5981]

The support aspect is there for scourge, but it's just that druid is too OP in that field. Also rip anyone that bought pof for scourge.

[Asukai.4507]

Hmm another nerf I see the people on reddit are upset hmm looks like the Scourge and the Reaper always see the nerfs someone must not like them.

[Maunzi.3764]

> @Swiftwynd.1685 said:

> Actually, and I know people will hate this, as a "real support keeping people alive in a raid setting using supportive runes/statsets/gear" and not in the "im going to speedclear this boss," Scourge is currently top Tier. The problem is, with Greater Sand Shade from Sand Savant, you arent hitting the entire raid like it advertises.

 

Are you seriously saying that Scourge is fine being useless for groups that are good at the content, and only being useful while groups are terrible at the content?

 

I'm sorry, but some of us want to play the game at a level higher than "train with the newbies". If an entire profession solely exists for that, and has no alternative specs that can be used for serious raiding, the entire balance is terrible. And no amount of your "well, the groups I am running with have people getting downed constantly" will change that. That's your group's problem. Even bad pugs don't have that problem.

[Geminx.3789]

> @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> > @kKagari.6804 said:

> > What I'm saying is:

> > **If the interaction between MSS and DS is fixed, there should be no reason for the striking component on MSS to not stack.**

>

> If these interactions stack together, then we have to assume that the maximum damage potential is with three shades stacked on top of one-another. This is not the intent of the specialization, as the design is for it to 'play the field', where each shade delivers the maximum potential without needing to be stacked. Now that the stacking bug has been fixed, we've got potential to bring the single-shade interaction to a more respectable level. Keep in mind that the specialization probably won't hit previous DPS potential (as it has heavy support built in), but we do intend for it to go *up* from where it's currently at.

 

Hello Karl, thanks for the info!

I get the idea that the team has for the scourge, but I fear that this may limit you more and more going forward. What I mean with this is that before, you had the increased damage only taking the middle trait, so the supportive builds were not affected (in all of them you will take the single, bigger shade). They were separated by this. Now, if every single shade has the full potential, every buff you're going to give to dps scourge, it will happen on the support scourge too, that was already in a good spot for what it did, and might easily become a problem (pvp, wvw, fractals). What you had before was the choice to play the field spreading your damage, gathering it in one single point, or renouncing this possibility by getting a better support.

 

I hope this doesn't sound presumptuous, I thought it might be useful to share, thanks for your work.

[kKagari.6804]

> @ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

> Everyone is about "stacking 3 shades dps, hurr-durr", but no one says it can at best happen once every 45s because there's a vicious recharge on each shade you burn that way. No sand savant = 15s recharge per single shade. Not to mention that by doing this (3 shades stack) the enemy can just walk away and then you're really boned.

>

> I'm totally for killing 3 shade stacking. Not because it's so OP, but because it's giving false sense of power and luring players into suicidal tactics.

>

> > @Swiftwynd.1685 said:

>

> > AoE 5 target reviving on a low recharge along with solid, consistent, area healing over time is extremely potent on raid support Scourge, and if their Greater Sand Shroud gets fixed and they can actually 10-target like advertised, then it will be just that more solid of a pick.

>

> That would do nothing for transfusion which is a trait, not a shade skill. You'd need transfution to work both off yourself and greater shade, each cast being able to affect 5 ppl (so 10 in total) and with mechanic to avoid double stacking the heals on one player, while other that's still in range would get none.

>

 

That's what i mean when i asked Karl and got a second response. I can't agree with them balancing around an extremely avoidable 45s scenario. But the good thing about the patching today is that finally we get some consistency. And i actually like that i need to put in. But more effort now. Can only hope we get buffed a bit, currently the spec is extremely pigeonholed

[Flumek.9043]

heavy support....

 

i wont write any dissrespectfull jokes this time but you should seriously look at the power levels.

druid (healing, dmg boost, 1v1 and 1v2 pvp capabilities)

firebrand (busted boonbot)

ele, engie (speedrun duo, can buff and blast every combo field in existance, heal each other in zerker gear)

 

necro cant even support himself in most 1v1s

[Walhalla.5473]

> @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> > @kKagari.6804 said:

> > What I'm saying is:

> > **If the interaction between MSS and DS is fixed, there should be no reason for the striking component on MSS to not stack.**

>

> If these interactions stack together, then we have to assume that the maximum damage potential is with three shades stacked on top of one-another. This is not the intent of the specialization, as the design is for it to 'play the field', where each shade delivers the maximum potential without needing to be stacked. Now that the stacking bug has been fixed, we've got potential to bring the single-shade interaction to a more respectable level. Keep in mind that the specialization probably won't hit previous DPS potential (as it has heavy support built in), but we do intend for it to go *up* from where it's currently at.

 

Sorry but where does the heavy support come from? Barriers decay way too fast to be of any use in PvE especially high end PvE, so thats not what I call heavy support. Most other classes have more and better support built into them and I don't see the "heavy support" argument being used there.