Balance with a Sledge Hammer

[Slayer.7318]

> @Aetatis.5418 said:

> changing the counters to boon heavy enemies, wont change much.

> chronos will remove boons on AA sword - warriors could be tweaked to do everything they do now and using the new e-spec with winds of disenchantment. (just an example and not entirely on a spread-sheet basis).

> the idea however isn't as bad as mentioned.

> i played aion for quite a while - and while the "spiritmaster" was all but best dmg (only in the top ranks when played exceptionally (!!) good). many encounters or single bosses in dungeons were adjusted to give space for that class anyway (that boon stripped aswell - one of two classes that could strip boons) by adding reflects or other annoying buffs such as 100% more dmg on the boss. either the grp waited and stopped dpsing or some super annoying mechanic got involved to negate the reflect (e.g. reflect had 2 states "blue" and "red" and the group had to manually pull the boss into a blue or red brazier in order to get a buff that negated most of the dmg - which still required a lot more healing).

> for the dmg buff on the boss, the grp had two possibilities, either dps the boss down as fast as possible + throw every defensive buff available OR bring boon strips.

>

> however i am not saying aion was some good grp-pve-game, but every class could go "raid" pve content. some could stack better (assassin, mage, cleric) and some were only needed once in a 12 man setting (templar/tank, spiritmaster/strips/dots(that dont stack), bard/12people dmg buff) -

> tl;dr

> every class in aion got something that was desirable for the given content. its "more" of bring the player, not the class. give it to gw2 too.

>

> gw2 and its specializations is more complex, i know that.

> but after so many posts popping up on the forums (necro-forums is eceptionally bloated with posts every day, compared to the other professions) some official guy MUST HAVE noticed and should have said something useful.

> instead everything mentioned is shady, vague and keeps every possible speculation open - while the community rages onanet, each other and the world. yay!

> why is it so hard for this company to talk to their players? (good) reasoning, explanation, communication.

> conspiracy dude, i swear!

 

while the other classes do indeed have boon stripping mechanics more so the spellbreaker and the mesmer one thing is the necromancer is the only class in the game that can turn a boon into a condition aka a positive effect to a negative on a foe (idk if there is traits for any classes that does this too but it seemed like only necro/scourge had these) . if bosses had conditions such as retaliation , regen, a multi block aegis ,resistance or vigor a necro being able to turn such conditions into harmful conditions could help boost their DPS in the condition field of things . it is also with the exception of null field which removes 1 from each pulse . has some that can remove up to 3 boons , can run all utilities and elite with boon stripping effects and even could have up to 2 weapon set that have access to 2 boon stripping/converting effects (1 on scepter , 1 on focus , and 1 on main hand and 1 on offhand daggers) if raid bosses possibly had a long line of buffs that could make the boss weaker (eg boss naturally has buffs that boost its stats like power, toughness and such) buffs that can be removed or converted unqiue raid buffs or buffs in game atm i feel would warrent a spot for necros more so scourge with all its options to convert such boons to harmful conditions.

[Klaeljanus.7695]

Well, let us consider what the complainants have to say:

The chief complaint from the PVP forums is that Scourge *has* an effective role as area denial, very effective boon hate, and has always been a strong source of soft-CCs that help make targets considerably less dangerous(Weakness, Crippled).

 

The last bit, along with the complete lack of immunity defences(block/invul/vigor+endurance boots) has been the main reason necro has always been focused. Not because it can kill things once it gets LF, that is just a bald faced lie, but that particularly as Reaper, it can supply a lot of weakness, cripple and freezing to enemies, and then share that love around to all nearby enemies.

 

The issue here is that in PVE, none of those roles matter at all. Bosses have no reason to care about area denial, very few use any boons, and almost all have little to no effect to being hit with weakness or cripple, and the long-standing force multiplication of Epidemic is nigh useless because most of the conditions transferred have no effect on the mobs they hit.

 

The first answer would be to remove all soft-CCs from necro, and put party boons in their place.

 

The problem now is that the last thing the game needs is yet more boons.

 

 

So the only final answer is that PVE would have to be adjusted such that all mobs are fully affected by the soft CCs that necro, and other non-PVE classes provide.

[Maunzi.3764]

> @"Exalted Quality.8534" said:

> Necros have always been and are even more so now very strong for how easy they are to play. You got one of the two strongest PvP/WvW classes at PoF launch. Be happy and deal with the nerfs.

 

Please keep your PVP QQ elsewhere. We understand that you have a hard time leaving the obvious AOE shades. It's okay. But this is not the thread for that.

 

Not that anyone cares for PVP/WVW anyway.

 

>You realize that even slight tweaks to the very approach of how the boss even moves around can shatter metas without directly biasing the fight towards a given profession, right?

 

You do realize that this would hurt us more than most other classes, right? That's why I'm saying it'd cement the meta even more than it already is. Your idea sounds good in a vacuum, but we know from other MMOs that in practice, the result is the opposite of what you think it'll be.

 

[mygamingid.5816]

> @Klaeljanus.7695 said:

> The issue here is that in PVE, none of those roles matter at all. Bosses have no reason to care about area denial, very few use any boons, and almost all have little to no effect to being hit with weakness or cripple, and the long-standing force multiplication of Epidemic is nigh useless because most of the conditions transferred have no effect on the mobs they hit.

 

It’d help a lot if people stopped confusing PvE with Raids. Everything you list there is raid-only (and raid-like fractals), not the PvE that dominates gameplay. The solution isn’t making Necro fit a dated half-kitten game mode (DPS Check Theater!).

 

1) Make raids more like today’s best PvE encounters. The more players have to account for direct damage and enemy boons, the more value Necro has.

 

2) Reduce the strength of the boon meta. Drop Alacrity & Quickness to a 33% or 25% bump. Halve the impact of spirits and GotL. Make Might +25 or +20 power instead of +30. All of those combine to make the boon meta a choice, rather than a mandate.

[Aetatis.5418]

> @mygamingid.5816 said:

> > @Klaeljanus.7695 said:

> > The issue here is that in PVE, none of those roles matter at all. Bosses have no reason to care about area denial, very few use any boons, and almost all have little to no effect to being hit with weakness or cripple, and the long-standing force multiplication of Epidemic is nigh useless because most of the conditions transferred have no effect on the mobs they hit.

>

> It’d help a lot if people stopped confusing PvE with Raids. Everything you list there is raid-only (and raid-like fractals), not the PvE that dominates gameplay. The solution isn’t making Necro fit a dated half-kitten game mode (DPS Check Theater!).

>

> 1) Make raids more like today’s best PvE encounters. The more players have to account for direct damage and enemy boons, the more value Necro has.

>

> 2) Reduce the strength of the boon meta. Drop Alacrity & Quickness to a 33% or 25% bump. Halve the impact of spirits and GotL. Make Might +25 or +20 power instead of +30. All of those combine to make the boon meta a choice, rather than a mandate.

 

while it could change the stacking of boon/support heavy classes. it doesnt change the fact, that necro stays at the bottom of dps. when the support gets dropped, the dps matters even more. yay, stacking weaver then.

its not like without boons/support a weaver does the same dmg as a necro all of a sudden. necro would not contribute more after all.

there is just one scenario i could imagine: the self-buff ability of necros ADDS on top of support provided by other allies - which is a whole different story

 

 

[Dadnir.5038]

> @mygamingid.5816 said:

> > @Klaeljanus.7695 said:

> > The issue here is that in PVE, none of those roles matter at all. Bosses have no reason to care about area denial, very few use any boons, and almost all have little to no effect to being hit with weakness or cripple, and the long-standing force multiplication of Epidemic is nigh useless because most of the conditions transferred have no effect on the mobs they hit.

>

> It’d help a lot if people stopped confusing PvE with Raids. Everything you list there is raid-only (and raid-like fractals), not the PvE that dominates gameplay. The solution isn’t making Necro fit a dated half-kitten game mode (DPS Check Theater!).

>

> 1) Make raids more like today’s best PvE encounters. The more players have to account for direct damage and enemy boons, the more value Necro has.

>

> 2) Reduce the strength of the boon meta. Drop Alacrity & Quickness to a 33% or 25% bump. Halve the impact of spirits and GotL. Make Might +25 or +20 power instead of +30. All of those combine to make the boon meta a choice, rather than a mandate.

 

This would change nothing for the necromancer, the ones that distribute the boons, even if they are less potent will still be highly favoured especially since the encounter threaten to last longer hatever happen and the one that deal the most damage or at least have the potential to do so will still be taken before any necromancer.

 

The best way to fix any imbalance between profession would be to force player to use environment tools to deal with the bosses in raids. If the life and death of the boss do not depend on any personal dps but on the mastery of the fight mechanism, then there is not reason to take someone over another. Except that no player is ready for such preposterous kind of raid.

 

What if sloth have been made so that he is your only way to cross the poisonous area and you had to keep agro and hope that you don't die against attacks a bit more vicious until your party finish creating a path?

 

Such raid encounters instead of the slaughter path that are raid allow all profession to stand on an equal ground. But no, the encounters are timed and made in such a way that you'd rather sacrifice survivability and be full dps just because being full dps allow you to bypass fight mechanism that reduce your survivability to zero even in full tank build.

 

The necromancer's support is just aimed at PvP. Well is it good design? For PvPer, yes. For PvEer, it would be ok if the necromancer was competitive in another area. The point is that it's not and that why the necromancer's community boil since years. We, as GW2's necromancers, want to be balanced. Balanced so that we have tools that are as effective in PvE as they are in PvP. We do not ant Anet to break the game for other professions in order to give us niche encounters, we just want to have some tools, even if they are useless in PvP, that are effective and unique enough for the necromancer to be valued in high end PvE. We do not ask for a huge dps, we ask for a competitive dps. We do not ask for a better support than any other professions, we ask for competitive support. You'd remove our shroud ability to soak up damage and give us instead some of the juicy block, dodge or other delicacy that the other professions have we would be more than happy and probably survive way longer than we are now (not because we have more health but because are used to deal with it).

[mygamingid.5816]

> @Dadnir.5038 said:

> > @mygamingid.5816 said:

> > > @Klaeljanus.7695 said:

> > > The issue here is that in PVE, none of those roles matter at all. Bosses have no reason to care about area denial, very few use any boons, and almost all have little to no effect to being hit with weakness or cripple, and the long-standing force multiplication of Epidemic is nigh useless because most of the conditions transferred have no effect on the mobs they hit.

> >

> > It’d help a lot if people stopped confusing PvE with Raids. Everything you list there is raid-only (and raid-like fractals), not the PvE that dominates gameplay. The solution isn’t making Necro fit a dated half-kitten game mode (DPS Check Theater!).

> >

> > 1) Make raids more like today’s best PvE encounters. The more players have to account for direct damage and enemy boons, the more value Necro has.

> >

> > 2) Reduce the strength of the boon meta. Drop Alacrity & Quickness to a 33% or 25% bump. Halve the impact of spirits and GotL. Make Might +25 or +20 power instead of +30. All of those combine to make the boon meta a choice, rather than a mandate.

>

> This would change nothing for the necromancer, the ones that distribute the boons, even if they are less potent will still be highly favoured especially since the encounter threaten to last longer hatever happen and the one that deal the most damage or at least have the potential to do so will still be taken before any necromancer.

 

The first would do a lot for Necro, as boon corruption would be great and barriers/heals would be more important. The second does a lot for everyone who isn’t a boonbot.

 

> The best way to fix any imbalance between profession would be to force player to use environment tools to deal with the bosses in raids. If the life and death of the boss do not depend on any personal dps but on the mastery of the fight mechanism, then there is not reason to take someone over another. Except that no player is ready for such preposterous kind of raid.

 

They already do for the defensive side of raiding. Stand in that glowing shape. Don’t stand in that glowing shape. It’s all environmental and telegraphed, which is the only reason glass builds are in the meta.

 

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

> @mygamingid.5816 said:

> > @Dadnir.5038 said:

> > > @mygamingid.5816 said:

> > > > @Klaeljanus.7695 said:

> > > > The issue here is that in PVE, none of those roles matter at all. Bosses have no reason to care about area denial, very few use any boons, and almost all have little to no effect to being hit with weakness or cripple, and the long-standing force multiplication of Epidemic is nigh useless because most of the conditions transferred have no effect on the mobs they hit.

> > >

> > > It’d help a lot if people stopped confusing PvE with Raids. Everything you list there is raid-only (and raid-like fractals), not the PvE that dominates gameplay. The solution isn’t making Necro fit a dated half-kitten game mode (DPS Check Theater!).

> > >

> > > 1) Make raids more like today’s best PvE encounters. The more players have to account for direct damage and enemy boons, the more value Necro has.

> > >

> > > 2) Reduce the strength of the boon meta. Drop Alacrity & Quickness to a 33% or 25% bump. Halve the impact of spirits and GotL. Make Might +25 or +20 power instead of +30. All of those combine to make the boon meta a choice, rather than a mandate.

> >

> > This would change nothing for the necromancer, the ones that distribute the boons, even if they are less potent will still be highly favoured especially since the encounter threaten to last longer hatever happen and the one that deal the most damage or at least have the potential to do so will still be taken before any necromancer.

>

> The first would do a lot for Necro, as boon corruption would be great and barriers/heals would be more important. The second does a lot for everyone who isn’t a boonbot.

>

> > The best way to fix any imbalance between profession would be to force player to use environment tools to deal with the bosses in raids. If the life and death of the boss do not depend on any personal dps but on the mastery of the fight mechanism, then there is not reason to take someone over another. Except that no player is ready for such preposterous kind of raid.

>

> They already do for the defensive side of raiding. Stand in that glowing shape. Don’t stand in that glowing shape. It’s all environmental and telegraphed, which is the only reason glass builds are in the meta.

>

 

Didn't we establish before that you don't raid? At all?

[mygamingid.5816]

> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> > @mygamingid.5816 said:

> > > @Dadnir.5038 said:

> > > > @mygamingid.5816 said:

> > > > > @Klaeljanus.7695 said:

> > > > > The issue here is that in PVE, none of those roles matter at all. Bosses have no reason to care about area denial, very few use any boons, and almost all have little to no effect to being hit with weakness or cripple, and the long-standing force multiplication of Epidemic is nigh useless because most of the conditions transferred have no effect on the mobs they hit.

> > > >

> > > > It’d help a lot if people stopped confusing PvE with Raids. Everything you list there is raid-only (and raid-like fractals), not the PvE that dominates gameplay. The solution isn’t making Necro fit a dated half-kitten game mode (DPS Check Theater!).

> > > >

> > > > 1) Make raids more like today’s best PvE encounters. The more players have to account for direct damage and enemy boons, the more value Necro has.

> > > >

> > > > 2) Reduce the strength of the boon meta. Drop Alacrity & Quickness to a 33% or 25% bump. Halve the impact of spirits and GotL. Make Might +25 or +20 power instead of +30. All of those combine to make the boon meta a choice, rather than a mandate.

> > >

> > > This would change nothing for the necromancer, the ones that distribute the boons, even if they are less potent will still be highly favoured especially since the encounter threaten to last longer hatever happen and the one that deal the most damage or at least have the potential to do so will still be taken before any necromancer.

> >

> > The first would do a lot for Necro, as boon corruption would be great and barriers/heals would be more important. The second does a lot for everyone who isn’t a boonbot.

> >

> > > The best way to fix any imbalance between profession would be to force player to use environment tools to deal with the bosses in raids. If the life and death of the boss do not depend on any personal dps but on the mastery of the fight mechanism, then there is not reason to take someone over another. Except that no player is ready for such preposterous kind of raid.

> >

> > They already do for the defensive side of raiding. Stand in that glowing shape. Don’t stand in that glowing shape. It’s all environmental and telegraphed, which is the only reason glass builds are in the meta.

> >

>

> Didn't we establish before that you don't raid? At all?

 

I have, but I’m not a fan.