Some possible reworks to Scourge that will define its "support" and increase its "dps" potential

[Rudra.6932]

Hey guys,

 

Like many people in the necro community, I was disappointed with how dhuumfire's damage got removed after the bug fix patch. At the beginning I had hoped that it was an unintentional effect but as we are all aware by now, that is the way it is intended to work. I am fine with that, as long as some compensation is done towards increasing the dps. As one of the devs said that Scourge damage will be increased in future balance patches (but not upto the previous level), I thought about putting some ideas forward. Please go through them and let us have a constructive discussion on how Scourge dps or support can be enhanced and please let's try to not turn this thread into another complain/toxic thread.

 

1. Making Sand Savant Baseline - if you look at the top line of scourge, the first 2 traits deals with barrier and yet the third trait modifies the shade itself. Going by the design principle the devs have followed for most PoF specs, each line defines a particular role or style. Sand Savant, by itself, doesn't fit that description in the top line (or any line for that matter). Additionally, managing 2-3 shades is often a chore, rather than a gameplay feature. Since, stacking is no longer a thing, the only reason to get more shades out in PvE would either be to dps on very widely separated targets (only makes sense in open world PvE) or more importantly, to manage the buffs from the shades - damage reduction and boost to expertise and concentration. Baselining Sand Savant will remove the chore part from the spec, and make all this easier to manage still while providing large "battle field control".

 

2. Replacing Sand Savant trait with either of the following -

a. Shrouded by Sand - "Providing barrier to ally now let's them get reduced damage from all sources by x%"

b. Bountiful Sand - "Sand shade buffs are now shared with allies (Sand Sage, Blood as Sand)" (can be modified to Ally affected by barrier)

This trait will work excellently for a support oriented Scourge, giving them a place. As of it's current state, Support scourge does not provide any meaningful support.

 

3. Reducing ICD of demonic lore to 1 or 2 second - This will allow a dps oriented scourge to put out more burn damage (even though not at the level of dhuumfire before). Desert shroud pulse will gain back some of its potency while not being as destructive as before.

 

4. Updating Desert Empowerment trait with an addition to barrier decay reduction on top of its previous effects. I would not mind having a higher base barrier from this trait either but that's up to testing and debate.

 

I believe that these changes will push scourge more towards the support vision that developers might have for it while retaining its dps alter ego providing something good for both play styles.

[Rudra.6932]

Reserved for consolidating good ideas.

[Dadnir.5038]

Or they could seriously look at core necromancer and fix everything from there...

 

The idea of multiple shades to boost coverage is interresting in itself, the issues are differents.

- The first issue was the stacking effect which seem resolved. (at a high price yes)

- The second issue is the fact that there is no tell on shades skills. (which is an issue that will still make a lot of players cry)

- The third issue is that the necromancer's support tools just aren't good for PvE. (It's always been the case, more inappropriate tools don't make those tools more usefull)

- The forth issue is the pathetic inate dps of the necromancer. (Remove unintended feature and the necromancer always underperform)

 

Scourge only need better tells on the shades skills. There is a need to reinforce the core necromancer in regard of sheer dps and support. Doing this would benefit the necromancer as a whole not just one e-spec.

 

[ZDragon.3046]

Making Sand Savant Baseline

If this was a baseline thing I personally might actually like scourge more but it feels like you are forced into taking it regardless of how you want to play scourge which is part of why I dont like it.

 

Im a total fan of the trait "Feed from Corruption" Because it gives necros access to other boons which we have needed for years but not for free as it requires you to land corrupts and rips for the boons you want how ever you cant run this and truly be an effective in anyway with such small shades.

 

I wish "Feed from Corruption" was some sort of baseline trait or mechanics of it were attached to certain boon corrupting skills at baseline. I would love for something like this to get moved down to core as a necro feature but i know thats not gonna happen :cold_sweat:

 

But outside of that a bigger barrier on desert shroud would be nice too. I like your ideas for scourge. Maybe a a change of trait that slows / delays / stops barrier decay in combat would be good to.

[nekretaal.6485]

Scourge's problems are not really scourge problems: they are core necromancer problems. Until Core Necromancer is fixed, Scourge is going to suck & Reaper is going to suck.

 

Core Necromancer needs damage, especially power damage, put on its weapon skills. At least a 30% buff to power damage of all skills across the board, including scepter. Specific skills like focus 4 need additional work done so they actually hit if you aren't directly on top of the enemy.

 

Scourge actually still needs a "nerf" of putting up some sort of visual tell on the shade when it is activated so that counterplay is available. It didn't need a damage nerf.

[Rudra.6932]

I am aware that core necromancer is riddled with problems which is why it does not have a place in competitive play. There are many changes that are needed to the core necromancer so that it would have a viable role as it currently doesn't serve any purpose other than to face tank some damage. However, let us try to focus on one thing at a time, as I am sure there are plenty of other discussions about how core necro can be fixed. The goal here is to try to figure out how Scourge can have a better identities as support and dps.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @Rudra.6932 said:

> I am aware that core necromancer is riddled with problems which is why it does not have a place in competitive play. There are many changes that are needed to the core necromancer so that it would have a viable role as it currently doesn't serve any purpose other than to face tank some damage. However, let us try to focus on one thing at a time, as I am sure there are plenty of other discussions about how core necro can be fixed. The goal here is to try to figure out how Scourge can have a better identities as support and dps.

 

The scourge offer atm support via condi control:

- defensive support: Condi conversion and barrier.

- offensive support: Boon corruption.

 

There is no way to make it clearer. The scourge don't need more than that to be already a strong support in WvW where you swim in boons and conditions.

 

As for DPS, the scourge have, like we said, the same issue than the reaper, the core necromancer is to weak.

 

That's why we answer by: "Fix core necromancer and scourge will be fixed at the same time".

 

[Rudra.6932]

> @Dadnir.5038 said:

> > @Rudra.6932 said:

> > I am aware that core necromancer is riddled with problems which is why it does not have a place in competitive play. There are many changes that are needed to the core necromancer so that it would have a viable role as it currently doesn't serve any purpose other than to face tank some damage. However, let us try to focus on one thing at a time, as I am sure there are plenty of other discussions about how core necro can be fixed. The goal here is to try to figure out how Scourge can have a better identities as support and dps.

>

> The scourge offer atm support via condi control:

> - defensive support: Condi conversion and barrier.

> - offensive support: Boon corruption.

>

> There is no way to make it clearer. The scourge don't need more than that to be already a strong support in WvW where you swim in boons and conditions.

>

> As for DPS, the scourge have, like we said, the same issue than the reaper, the core necromancer is to weak.

>

> That's why we answer by: "Fix core necromancer and scourge will be fixed at the same time".

>

 

What you are pointing at is just 1 of 3 game modes. Additionally, firebrand defensive support in WvW is stronger (and purely in my opinion, more important) than scourge support. The barrier acts mostly as band-aid on top of Firebrand's stitches (metaphorically).

 

If you look at sPvP, the only support scourge can provide is via blood magic and that is not a play style unique to Scourge. Prior to PoF wells power reaper could do the same and provide speed rez support while doing very good damage.

In PvE, neither boon corruption nor condi conversion can be considered to be powerful enough to justify the term "offensive/defensive support" because they are useful in very specific scenarios, not universally.

The offensive support that is utilized in PvE come in the form of buffs that empower the whole group's damage output and defensive support comes from group invulnerabilities, aegis,stability, reflect, blocks, etc. The damage reduction trait from my suggested change would provide a passive defensive support with barriers, reduction in barrier decay and offensive support by boosting ally concentration and expertise.

[Dragoth.7153]

Why we have to tell devs what to do? I want to see full dev run clears of raids incliding scourge or reapers and see how they think we should play it.

 

 

[nintama.9436]

There are ways to improve scourge "support" role without increasing dps. For example, instead of giving buff for team, scourge shade (maybe F5) can give debuff to enemy standing in it like ignore armor for 2 sec each pulse or reduce toughness / hp (like lich 5).... those do not make scourge become top dps himself but still a significant increase damage for the team. I don't mind if these also scale and trait with supporting start to prevent necro being op himself and quite fit well with the dark theme of necromancer overall.