ZDragon.3046

> @"Kuma.1503" said: > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > > > > > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > > > > > > > The forums: "That does too much damage. .9 is too much. Nerf it so it doesn't do so much damage" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also the fourms: "kitten, why won't these bunkers die. It's obviously the passive sustain" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *Another build pops up that does relevant damage* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Forums: "Quick nerf that too!" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's a minor passive trait, we can all agree that things like Reckless Dodge did too much damage pre Feb so why is only one able to do those levels of damage? It's not just damage but what's doing it that's the issue, and this is without the absolute ridiculousness that is Flashbang. We were all joking before the last nerf to Flashbang that it would just be a blind duration nerf and that's exactly what happened. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Standing in Spirit Sword and dying is one thing, being hit for 3k from any hit, including CC, because somebody dodged is a bit much. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3k damage (.9 power coeff) Is less damage than a mortar kit auto. Which an engineer can spam on node safely from 1500 range. It's a bit of icing on the cake on top of their burst, but nothing rediculous. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The existance of passive damage isn't a problem in itself. I reckon a ranger does far more with their pet (reminder, smokescale can passively knockdown), and a guardian does far more over time with their passive burns, neither of which requires any trait investment. Why is this so much worse? Because it requires endurance to activate? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is not the best comparison to be honest if anet has any kind of balancing standard EE shouldnt be anywhere near as strong as it is in pvp. > > > > > > Keep in mind a rangers pet more kin to the f skills which would be more like comparing it to extra damage that comes from engi's tool bet skills (many which are instant and can be combo'ed with other skills) > > > > > > > > > > > > EE should be based closer to other traits that grant passive damage from doing an action or on hit passive procs. > > > > > > Ergo > > > > > > EE should ideally be looking closer to traits like > > > > > > Reckless dodge (Warrior) > > > > > > Mark of Evasion (Necro) > > > > > > Evasive Arcana (Ele) > > > > > > > > > > > > We could even say it could be closer to traits like > > > > > > Power Block (Mesmer) > > > > > > Chill of Death (Necro) > > > > > > Chilling Nova (Necro/Reaper) > > > > > > Wrath of Justice (Guardian) > > > > > > > > > > > > Keep in mind most of these examples do not do critical damage (many of them hardly do damage at all) and are selectable adept, master, or grandmaster examples while EE is the first Minor trait in the explosive line. > > > > > > The fact that EE refreshes on dodge, does critical damage, and can be made to blind without reducing its damage makes it considerably stronger than other traits that easily fit into a similar (on hit proc or on hit of certain action) options on other professions. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats just how I look at the situation. Other professions have had their passive on hit proc triats reduced to basically tickle damage while EE basically acts like a proper extra skill. This is why people still say it needs a nerf. They want their on hit passives to have their damage back and be able to critically hit or they want EE in the same tier. Even more so because its a minor and many of the things I listed above are as i said Adept, Master, and Grand master options. > > > > > > > > > > EE is different than the traits you mentioned for two major reasons > > > > > > > > > > 1. It is also the only trait listed here to be a **major focus in an entire traitline**. It's given similar treatment to effects like **Invoke torment**. A passive effect which is focused on heavily throughout the Corruption traitline. It can be traited to deal massive damage (even more than EE) with traits like Diabolic Inferno, or transfer conditions. I'd argue this is the best comparison because these two traits were both results of traitline reworks, they were introduced in the same patch. Both are passive effects which play a central role through out their respective traitlines. Both can be further augmented with additional effects. > > > > > > > > I would still say that EE is over performing a good bit even with this example. Invoke torment is a 1 off every 10s at best. EE has really only 2 extra traits that modify it. I personally would not call this a whole trainline heavily focusing on it I wouldnt say the same for Invoke torment either. Its not necessary focused through the entire line more like it has a few traits that modify it or boost it to be even stronger which is likely a warrant for its base to not be as strong as it is to be frank with you. > > > > > > > > Even if we look at examples like Invoke torment with like the most extremes there are only 3 traits that effect it and all 3 of them are grand master options. EE has 1 master trait and 1 grand master trait. The other minors in-between i would not consider a direct focus to EE because they effect skills throughout all of Engi's damage options as a whole that happen to be classed as explosions. I personally wouldn't consider this heavy focus for EE but if we still must classify it like that its likely still warranted for nerfs in the eyes of others based on trait lines like invoke torment with a cd of some kind instead of just refreshing on roll. > > > > > > > > > 2. The traits you listed are generally utility focused in nature. Power Block, for example, increases skill cooldowns by 15 seconds. This is a massive effect, and arguably much more important than the damage it deals. Similarly you could completely remove the damage from Evasive Arcana, and it would still be useful for the heal/cleanse in water, or the blast finisher/cripple in earth. EE's only purpose (baseline) is to deal damage. > > > > > > > > Power block is an of a stretch and its fair that you call out its other utility. However even if we remove that one example there are still others that are lesser utility based and more damage focused. > > > > Some of the others are not and by far are closer to simply put extra damage on hit for example **Chilling nova** which has several combos with several other chill inspired traits in the reaper line does not do anywhere near the damage of EE and has a cooldown. I suppose you could consider that "Utility" in the idea of "Well it extends chill uptime", but then we have to look at a traits like **Blast Shield/Flashbang** and question if taking such traits should considerably reduce EE's damage to be non existent as they add considerable utility to EE procs. > > > > > > > > Even if we look at it as a baseline to "deal damage" i still argue personally that, maybe... just maybe, the damage should not be able to critically hit like many other passive damage traits. It is an outlier from my and many others perspectives and its no surprise people continue to complain about it. Regardless of how you class EE it sits in its own tier above other similar trait options. While I wont exactly demand EE be nerfed to the floor myself (if anet does nerf it i wont argue against it) I easily understand why people want it nerfed more because it stands far above other similar options. > > > > > > > > Basically EE is by far one of the best traits of its passive damage type because its does good damage, can do critical damage, is not limited by a cooldown, and can be modified to grant utility via its traits. I might even argue that EE is not directly in need of a nerf, however the traits that modify and grant it utility should be changed so that when they are taken EE's damage becomes less effective as they add considerable utility to EE. I only say this because other professions have similar traits that are stand alone adept/master/grand masters with questionably equal or lesser utility that also do less damage, cannot critically hit, and have internal cds. > > > > > > > > As i said im not going to demand for EE nerfs but at the very least I would propose that taits that add utility to EE change the base skill of EE reducing its damage in some way either removing the ability to critically strike or giving it a flat icd. > > > > > > > > > > I'm just going to make one observation. Considering EE is a power focused trait, and Invoke Torment is a condition focused trait which do you think deals more **power damage**? > > > > > > If you guessed, EE, you'd be incorrect. Invoke torment does more power damage than EE **on top of the conditions in inflicts**. Even if you granted that it's effect cannot be accessed as frequently, it more than makes up for it in how powerful the effect is per application. > > > > I will have to test in game (incase the wiki tool tip is off) but I dont think you are correct here. (unless it really is off) > > base 121 with a .33 cof strike damage on Inv.Torment > > vs > > base 239 with a .90 cof strike damage on EE > > You would be lucky to see Inv. Torment do half as much as EE with base numbers like these to be honest with you. > > Based on the pvp only scaling incase you peeked at the wrong thing but that does not seems like a mistake you would make so I'll assume there is a high chance the wiki tool tip is wrong and give it a look in game later. > > > > In total damage yes Inv. Torment will do more as it also applies a torment stack (assuming it sticks for the full duration) > > How ever its also limited to the 10s cool down and basically a small area outside of melee range. > > > > > > > > To pair off the benefits of both > > > > > > Invoke Torment > > > - Does more power damage > > Will have to confirm this later. > > > - Has more powerful (traited) effects. It can apply hard hitting conditions, transfer conditions, and/or grant resistance. > > You can only pick 1 of these not all 3. > > 1 just adds damage which is fine for a grandmaster > > 2 grants 1s of resistance the utility here is basically does not exists which is why its not often used. > > 3 grants decent utility as a transfer but based on what im told can be clunky at times > > > - Is generally used on cooldown. Rev's are incintevised to legend swap as close to on CD as possible to gain the maximum amount of energy regeneration. > > > > This is kind of situational while you are correct its not always the case that they can swap ontop of you and then there is still the matter of the cd using it as often as posible does not make the cd not exists I personally view EE being an auto refresh on 10s cd as more balanced than it currently is right now. I wont demand the idea but im also not against it i just think it would be more fair by comparison of other trait standards throughout the game. > > > > > Explosive Entrance > > > - Has a shorter cooldown (Variable based on how close to on CD the engineer dodges) > > > - With Flashbang, has a CC effect attatched (above 90% health). Blinds below 90% health > > > - Applies weak barrier (traited) > > > > Unlike the pervious both can be taken at the same time regardless of how strong one views the benefits of adding the utility it still adds utility. > > Especially in the case of flashbang triggering a cc which the majority of which should not be dealing damage at this point. That trait in itself does make EE an outlier among many things as anets goal was to basically not have instant cc attacks doing 3-5k damage or more which EE was doing it can probably still hit close to 5k on light armors. > > Yes I understand the cc only triggers on basically max health targets but this is still not a fact to be ignored. > > > > My question is still why do other traits that have damage procing effects not have anywhere near close to the damage of EE with its utility trait addons or why adding utility to EE does not reduce its damage similarly to other traits. > > > > Anet, allegedly, standardized them to not be both on hit proc damage and utility in pvp. This is why people want EE nerfed more because it breaks the standard for most of the skills they have that do act in a similar way. > > While not all those traits have an entire line or 2-3 parts of trait line pointing at a minor trait like EE does, this is only because EE is still for the most part is new in the game from the explosives rework so its been a sore spot for people for while as it was doing far higher numbers than what it is now and many people still consider 3-5k too high for a on hit proc. > > > > I would argue the same for Inv. torment to be honest if it was bursting people for more than 3-5k instantly while transferring conditions for example. > > (I will do more research on inv. torment next time i log on just to see what kind of raw numbers it can hit) > > I'm just saying... > > I understand the "why" people want it toned down more still because in comparison to many other things its still hitting hard even with the minor/major utilities attached onto it. > > > > Hold up a second, you are right. I wasn't aware of the skill split. This puts EE comfortably ahead of it in terms of power damage. Factoring that in, EE should be the strongest trait of it's type in terms of raw dps. > > With this in mind EE is (objectively) overperforming as far as on hit procs go. It still lags behind in utility in comparison to traits like Power Block, but it's leagues ahead in damage. > I was literally in game testing this not too long ago and yea on assassin ammulet with no rune and no might stacks i was getting raw crit strike numbers like 700 on light, 650 on medium and 590 on heavy for invoke torment 1.3k on light, 1.1k on medium and 900ish on heavy for EE If Invoke torment had been doing more or equal raw damage i would have came back here and said "Yeah thats doing way too much too" > It's worth asking why traits like IT and Power Block are considered acceptable while EE is not. It could have its power damage reduced in exchange for a bit of utility, ideally proccing in a way that is more active in nature. Well invoke torment may also need another looking into but part of my suspicion as to why its ok is because - its got a 10s cd no matter how you spin it - its basically only gonna hit in near melee range When considering power block its had lots of changes over time and it use to be BEYOND BUSTED how ever while it does provide considerable utility advantage to the caster if they interrupt by locking out interrupted skills. - it cant deal critical damage That one factor alone makes a massive difference in how people view a skill if something can crit its damage can be amplified many times over vs a skill that cannot crit. Skills that cant crit basically do damage just to confirm you got hit at this point in my opinion. Damage wise i think powerblock is fine personally I dont have issues with it. Its super annoying to fight against but I dont take issue with the strike damage it deals. A better outlier to ask why its ok is a trait like Lightning rod which basically acts very similar to powre block but wit ha twist. Instead of locking out the skills for a longer period it it just deals damage and applies weakness but can actually critically hit so it can often do good chunks of damage while a player is being cc'ed back to back. It also does not specifically require a interrupt its just any time a cc successfully disables the target. While it is limtied by the cd's of the cc's themselves its one that probably stands as a close second place to EE in terms of "why is this hitting so hard so frequently." I would argue that if EE was already weaker than it currently is you would see people talking more about it instead of EE. > > This is something I'll have to think on, but for now, you can I can both agree that it is a problem in it's current iteration. In the interest of not gutting core engi further It is worth looking into re allocating that power into healthier areas, but solutions will need to be simple and easy to execute, given how Anet has been approaching balance lately. If no easy solution can be found, the most easiest solution is to standardize it at a 0.5 coeff. When factoring in the explosive synergy it has with the rest of the line, this would put it in line with Reckless Dodge. Yes we can agree its a bit problematic.... its one of those traits that's fun by design but a bit hard to control and keep it fun to use. Anet often comes up with amazing skills and traits but they end up being problems later on after the player base gets their hands on them. This usually leads to the destruction of those skills and traits so players just wont use them outside of memeing. Standardizing effectively would help but not when things get missed like this or the standards are a bit mixed and matched all over the place. I do however think its a minor problem at the moment and not the biggest on the list for sure there are far more broken things at the moment than EE in my personal opinion. There should be, technically, many ways anet can standardize it they could reduce the coeff like you suggested, simply not allow it to crit and keep its higher coeff or even increase it back to what it was previously, apply a cd instead of letting it refresh on dodge roll, or look at increasing the utility traits that stack on top of it in exchange for having the added utility reduce its damage base on the utility gained (when you opt to take those traits only). I have always had a problem with how anet tends to try to standardize things and often misses one or two things which stand out especially when they are things that tend to act some what similar like on hit proc or dodge roll traits being the examples in this case. The things they miss tend to often be the things people want nerfed some times the people are justified in their opinions. I've been on the receiving end of EE dazing and blinding me and knocking off 5k or more of my hp from just an auto attack and thats playing a profession with higher base vitality even on glass amulets. That happening to other professions with base 11k hp is gonna be even more painful.

> @"Kuma.1503" said: > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > > > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > > > > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > > > > > The forums: "That does too much damage. .9 is too much. Nerf it so it doesn't do so much damage" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also the fourms: "kitten, why won't these bunkers die. It's obviously the passive sustain" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *Another build pops up that does relevant damage* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Forums: "Quick nerf that too!" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's a minor passive trait, we can all agree that things like Reckless Dodge did too much damage pre Feb so why is only one able to do those levels of damage? It's not just damage but what's doing it that's the issue, and this is without the absolute ridiculousness that is Flashbang. We were all joking before the last nerf to Flashbang that it would just be a blind duration nerf and that's exactly what happened. > > > > > > > > > > > > Standing in Spirit Sword and dying is one thing, being hit for 3k from any hit, including CC, because somebody dodged is a bit much. > > > > > > > > > > 3k damage (.9 power coeff) Is less damage than a mortar kit auto. Which an engineer can spam on node safely from 1500 range. It's a bit of icing on the cake on top of their burst, but nothing rediculous. > > > > > > > > > > The existance of passive damage isn't a problem in itself. I reckon a ranger does far more with their pet (reminder, smokescale can passively knockdown), and a guardian does far more over time with their passive burns, neither of which requires any trait investment. Why is this so much worse? Because it requires endurance to activate? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is not the best comparison to be honest if anet has any kind of balancing standard EE shouldnt be anywhere near as strong as it is in pvp. > > > > Keep in mind a rangers pet more kin to the f skills which would be more like comparing it to extra damage that comes from engi's tool bet skills (many which are instant and can be combo'ed with other skills) > > > > > > > > EE should be based closer to other traits that grant passive damage from doing an action or on hit passive procs. > > > > Ergo > > > > EE should ideally be looking closer to traits like > > > > Reckless dodge (Warrior) > > > > Mark of Evasion (Necro) > > > > Evasive Arcana (Ele) > > > > > > > > We could even say it could be closer to traits like > > > > Power Block (Mesmer) > > > > Chill of Death (Necro) > > > > Chilling Nova (Necro/Reaper) > > > > Wrath of Justice (Guardian) > > > > > > > > Keep in mind most of these examples do not do critical damage (many of them hardly do damage at all) and are selectable adept, master, or grandmaster examples while EE is the first Minor trait in the explosive line. > > > > The fact that EE refreshes on dodge, does critical damage, and can be made to blind without reducing its damage makes it considerably stronger than other traits that easily fit into a similar (on hit proc or on hit of certain action) options on other professions. > > > > > > > > Thats just how I look at the situation. Other professions have had their passive on hit proc triats reduced to basically tickle damage while EE basically acts like a proper extra skill. This is why people still say it needs a nerf. They want their on hit passives to have their damage back and be able to critically hit or they want EE in the same tier. Even more so because its a minor and many of the things I listed above are as i said Adept, Master, and Grand master options. > > > > > > EE is different than the traits you mentioned for two major reasons > > > > > > 1. It is also the only trait listed here to be a **major focus in an entire traitline**. It's given similar treatment to effects like **Invoke torment**. A passive effect which is focused on heavily throughout the Corruption traitline. It can be traited to deal massive damage (even more than EE) with traits like Diabolic Inferno, or transfer conditions. I'd argue this is the best comparison because these two traits were both results of traitline reworks, they were introduced in the same patch. Both are passive effects which play a central role through out their respective traitlines. Both can be further augmented with additional effects. > > > > I would still say that EE is over performing a good bit even with this example. Invoke torment is a 1 off every 10s at best. EE has really only 2 extra traits that modify it. I personally would not call this a whole trainline heavily focusing on it I wouldnt say the same for Invoke torment either. Its not necessary focused through the entire line more like it has a few traits that modify it or boost it to be even stronger which is likely a warrant for its base to not be as strong as it is to be frank with you. > > > > Even if we look at examples like Invoke torment with like the most extremes there are only 3 traits that effect it and all 3 of them are grand master options. EE has 1 master trait and 1 grand master trait. The other minors in-between i would not consider a direct focus to EE because they effect skills throughout all of Engi's damage options as a whole that happen to be classed as explosions. I personally wouldn't consider this heavy focus for EE but if we still must classify it like that its likely still warranted for nerfs in the eyes of others based on trait lines like invoke torment with a cd of some kind instead of just refreshing on roll. > > > > > 2. The traits you listed are generally utility focused in nature. Power Block, for example, increases skill cooldowns by 15 seconds. This is a massive effect, and arguably much more important than the damage it deals. Similarly you could completely remove the damage from Evasive Arcana, and it would still be useful for the heal/cleanse in water, or the blast finisher/cripple in earth. EE's only purpose (baseline) is to deal damage. > > > > Power block is an of a stretch and its fair that you call out its other utility. However even if we remove that one example there are still others that are lesser utility based and more damage focused. > > Some of the others are not and by far are closer to simply put extra damage on hit for example **Chilling nova** which has several combos with several other chill inspired traits in the reaper line does not do anywhere near the damage of EE and has a cooldown. I suppose you could consider that "Utility" in the idea of "Well it extends chill uptime", but then we have to look at a traits like **Blast Shield/Flashbang** and question if taking such traits should considerably reduce EE's damage to be non existent as they add considerable utility to EE procs. > > > > Even if we look at it as a baseline to "deal damage" i still argue personally that, maybe... just maybe, the damage should not be able to critically hit like many other passive damage traits. It is an outlier from my and many others perspectives and its no surprise people continue to complain about it. Regardless of how you class EE it sits in its own tier above other similar trait options. While I wont exactly demand EE be nerfed to the floor myself (if anet does nerf it i wont argue against it) I easily understand why people want it nerfed more because it stands far above other similar options. > > > > Basically EE is by far one of the best traits of its passive damage type because its does good damage, can do critical damage, is not limited by a cooldown, and can be modified to grant utility via its traits. I might even argue that EE is not directly in need of a nerf, however the traits that modify and grant it utility should be changed so that when they are taken EE's damage becomes less effective as they add considerable utility to EE. I only say this because other professions have similar traits that are stand alone adept/master/grand masters with questionably equal or lesser utility that also do less damage, cannot critically hit, and have internal cds. > > > > As i said im not going to demand for EE nerfs but at the very least I would propose that taits that add utility to EE change the base skill of EE reducing its damage in some way either removing the ability to critically strike or giving it a flat icd. > > > > I'm just going to make one observation. Considering EE is a power focused trait, and Invoke Torment is a condition focused trait which do you think deals more **power damage**? > > If you guessed, EE, you'd be incorrect. Invoke torment does more power damage than EE **on top of the conditions in inflicts**. Even if you granted that it's effect cannot be accessed as frequently, it more than makes up for it in how powerful the effect is per application. I will have to test in game (incase the wiki tool tip is off) but I dont think you are correct here. (unless it really is off) base 121 with a .33 cof strike damage on Inv.Torment vs base 239 with a .90 cof strike damage on EE You would be lucky to see Inv. Torment do half as much as EE with base numbers like these to be honest with you. Based on the pvp only scaling incase you peeked at the wrong thing but that does not seems like a mistake you would make so I'll assume there is a high chance the wiki tool tip is wrong and give it a look in game later. In total damage yes Inv. Torment will do more as it also applies a torment stack (assuming it sticks for the full duration) How ever its also limited to the 10s cool down and basically a small area outside of melee range. > > To pair off the benefits of both > > Invoke Torment > - Does more power damage Will have to confirm this later. > - Has more powerful (traited) effects. It can apply hard hitting conditions, transfer conditions, and/or grant resistance. You can only pick 1 of these not all 3. 1 just adds damage which is fine for a grandmaster 2 grants 1s of resistance the utility here is basically does not exists which is why its not often used. 3 grants decent utility as a transfer but based on what im told can be clunky at times > - Is generally used on cooldown. Rev's are incintevised to legend swap as close to on CD as possible to gain the maximum amount of energy regeneration. This is kind of situational while you are correct its not always the case that they can swap ontop of you and then there is still the matter of the cd using it as often as posible does not make the cd not exists I personally view EE being an auto refresh on 10s cd as more balanced than it currently is right now. I wont demand the idea but im also not against it i just think it would be more fair by comparison of other trait standards throughout the game. > Explosive Entrance > - Has a shorter cooldown (Variable based on how close to on CD the engineer dodges) > - With Flashbang, has a CC effect attatched (above 90% health). Blinds below 90% health > - Applies weak barrier (traited) Unlike the pervious both can be taken at the same time regardless of how strong one views the benefits of adding the utility it still adds utility. Especially in the case of flashbang triggering a cc which the majority of which should not be dealing damage at this point. That trait in itself does make EE an outlier among many things as anets goal was to basically not have instant cc attacks doing 3-5k damage or more which EE was doing it can probably still hit close to 5k on light armors. Yes I understand the cc only triggers on basically max health targets but this is still not a fact to be ignored. My question is still why do other traits that have damage procing effects not have anywhere near close to the damage of EE with its utility trait addons or why adding utility to EE does not reduce its damage similarly to other traits. Anet, allegedly, standardized them to not be both on hit proc damage and utility in pvp. This is why people want EE nerfed more because it breaks the standard for most of the skills they have that do act in a similar way. While not all those traits have an entire line or 2-3 parts of trait line pointing at a minor trait like EE does, this is only because EE is still for the most part is new in the game from the explosives rework so its been a sore spot for people for while as it was doing far higher numbers than what it is now and many people still consider 3-5k too high for a on hit proc. I would argue the same for Inv. torment to be honest if it was bursting people for more than 3-5k instantly while transferring conditions for example. (I will do more research on inv. torment next time i log on just to see what kind of raw numbers it can hit) I'm just saying... I understand the "why" people want it toned down more still because in comparison to many other things its still hitting hard even with the minor/major utilities attached onto it.

> @"Kuma.1503" said: > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > > > The forums: "That does too much damage. .9 is too much. Nerf it so it doesn't do so much damage" > > > > > > > > > > Also the fourms: "kitten, why won't these bunkers die. It's obviously the passive sustain" > > > > > > > > > > *Another build pops up that does relevant damage* > > > > > > > > > > The Forums: "Quick nerf that too!" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's a minor passive trait, we can all agree that things like Reckless Dodge did too much damage pre Feb so why is only one able to do those levels of damage? It's not just damage but what's doing it that's the issue, and this is without the absolute ridiculousness that is Flashbang. We were all joking before the last nerf to Flashbang that it would just be a blind duration nerf and that's exactly what happened. > > > > > > > > Standing in Spirit Sword and dying is one thing, being hit for 3k from any hit, including CC, because somebody dodged is a bit much. > > > > > > 3k damage (.9 power coeff) Is less damage than a mortar kit auto. Which an engineer can spam on node safely from 1500 range. It's a bit of icing on the cake on top of their burst, but nothing rediculous. > > > > > > The existance of passive damage isn't a problem in itself. I reckon a ranger does far more with their pet (reminder, smokescale can passively knockdown), and a guardian does far more over time with their passive burns, neither of which requires any trait investment. Why is this so much worse? Because it requires endurance to activate? > > > > > > > > > > This is not the best comparison to be honest if anet has any kind of balancing standard EE shouldnt be anywhere near as strong as it is in pvp. > > Keep in mind a rangers pet more kin to the f skills which would be more like comparing it to extra damage that comes from engi's tool bet skills (many which are instant and can be combo'ed with other skills) > > > > EE should be based closer to other traits that grant passive damage from doing an action or on hit passive procs. > > Ergo > > EE should ideally be looking closer to traits like > > Reckless dodge (Warrior) > > Mark of Evasion (Necro) > > Evasive Arcana (Ele) > > > > We could even say it could be closer to traits like > > Power Block (Mesmer) > > Chill of Death (Necro) > > Chilling Nova (Necro/Reaper) > > Wrath of Justice (Guardian) > > > > Keep in mind most of these examples do not do critical damage (many of them hardly do damage at all) and are selectable adept, master, or grandmaster examples while EE is the first Minor trait in the explosive line. > > The fact that EE refreshes on dodge, does critical damage, and can be made to blind without reducing its damage makes it considerably stronger than other traits that easily fit into a similar (on hit proc or on hit of certain action) options on other professions. > > > > Thats just how I look at the situation. Other professions have had their passive on hit proc triats reduced to basically tickle damage while EE basically acts like a proper extra skill. This is why people still say it needs a nerf. They want their on hit passives to have their damage back and be able to critically hit or they want EE in the same tier. Even more so because its a minor and many of the things I listed above are as i said Adept, Master, and Grand master options. > > EE is different than the traits you mentioned for two major reasons > > 1. It is also the only trait listed here to be a **major focus in an entire traitline**. It's given similar treatment to effects like **Invoke torment**. A passive effect which is focused on heavily throughout the Corruption traitline. It can be traited to deal massive damage (even more than EE) with traits like Diabolic Inferno, or transfer conditions. I'd argue this is the best comparison because these two traits were both results of traitline reworks, they were introduced in the same patch. Both are passive effects which play a central role through out their respective traitlines. Both can be further augmented with additional effects. I would still say that EE is over performing a good bit even with this example. Invoke torment is a 1 off every 10s at best. EE has really only 2 extra traits that modify it. I personally would not call this a whole trainline heavily focusing on it I wouldnt say the same for Invoke torment either. Its not necessary focused through the entire line more like it has a few traits that modify it or boost it to be even stronger which is likely a warrant for its base to not be as strong as it is to be frank with you. Even if we look at examples like Invoke torment with like the most extremes there are only 3 traits that effect it and all 3 of them are grand master options. EE has 1 master trait and 1 grand master trait. The other minors in-between i would not consider a direct focus to EE because they effect skills throughout all of Engi's damage options as a whole that happen to be classed as explosions. I personally wouldn't consider this heavy focus for EE but if we still must classify it like that its likely still warranted for nerfs in the eyes of others based on trait lines like invoke torment with a cd of some kind instead of just refreshing on roll. > 2. The traits you listed are generally utility focused in nature. Power Block, for example, increases skill cooldowns by 15 seconds. This is a massive effect, and arguably much more important than the damage it deals. Similarly you could completely remove the damage from Evasive Arcana, and it would still be useful for the heal/cleanse in water, or the blast finisher/cripple in earth. EE's only purpose (baseline) is to deal damage. Power block is an of a stretch and its fair that you call out its other utility. However even if we remove that one example there are still others that are lesser utility based and more damage focused. Some of the others are not and by far are closer to simply put extra damage on hit for example **Chilling nova** which has several combos with several other chill inspired traits in the reaper line does not do anywhere near the damage of EE and has a cooldown. I suppose you could consider that "Utility" in the idea of "Well it extends chill uptime", but then we have to look at a traits like **Blast Shield/Flashbang** and question if taking such traits should considerably reduce EE's damage to be non existent as they add considerable utility to EE procs. Even if we look at it as a baseline to "deal damage" i still argue personally that, maybe... just maybe, the damage should not be able to critically hit like many other passive damage traits. It is an outlier from my and many others perspectives and its no surprise people continue to complain about it. Regardless of how you class EE it sits in its own tier above other similar trait options. While I wont exactly demand EE be nerfed to the floor myself (if anet does nerf it i wont argue against it) I easily understand why people want it nerfed more because it stands far above other similar options. Basically EE is by far one of the best traits of its passive damage type because its does good damage, can do critical damage, is not limited by a cooldown, and can be modified to grant utility via its traits. I might even argue that EE is not directly in need of a nerf, however the traits that modify and grant it utility should be changed so that when they are taken EE's damage becomes less effective as they add considerable utility to EE. I only say this because other professions have similar traits that are stand alone adept/master/grand masters with questionably equal or lesser utility that also do less damage, cannot critically hit, and have internal cds. As i said im not going to demand for EE nerfs but at the very least I would propose that taits that add utility to EE change the base skill of EE reducing its damage in some way either removing the ability to critically strike or giving it a flat icd.

> @"Kuma.1503" said: > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > The forums: "That does too much damage. .9 is too much. Nerf it so it doesn't do so much damage" > > > > > > Also the fourms: "kitten, why won't these bunkers die. It's obviously the passive sustain" > > > > > > *Another build pops up that does relevant damage* > > > > > > The Forums: "Quick nerf that too!" > > > > > > > > > > It's a minor passive trait, we can all agree that things like Reckless Dodge did too much damage pre Feb so why is only one able to do those levels of damage? It's not just damage but what's doing it that's the issue, and this is without the absolute ridiculousness that is Flashbang. We were all joking before the last nerf to Flashbang that it would just be a blind duration nerf and that's exactly what happened. > > > > Standing in Spirit Sword and dying is one thing, being hit for 3k from any hit, including CC, because somebody dodged is a bit much. > > 3k damage (.9 power coeff) Is less damage than a mortar kit auto. Which an engineer can spam on node safely from 1500 range. It's a bit of icing on the cake on top of their burst, but nothing rediculous. > > The existance of passive damage isn't a problem in itself. I reckon a ranger does far more with their pet (reminder, smokescale can passively knockdown), and a guardian does far more over time with their passive burns, neither of which requires any trait investment. Why is this so much worse? Because it requires endurance to activate? > > This is not the best comparison to be honest if anet has any kind of balancing standard EE shouldnt be anywhere near as strong as it is in pvp. Keep in mind a rangers pet more kin to the f skills which would be more like comparing it to extra damage that comes from engi's tool bet skills (many which are instant and can be combo'ed with other skills) EE should be based closer to other traits that grant passive damage from doing an action or on hit passive procs. Ergo EE should ideally be looking closer to traits like Reckless dodge (Warrior) Mark of Evasion (Necro) Evasive Arcana (Ele) We could even say it could be closer to traits like Power Block (Mesmer) Chill of Death (Necro) Chilling Nova (Necro/Reaper) Wrath of Justice (Guardian) Keep in mind most of these examples do not do critical damage (many of them hardly do damage at all) and are selectable adept, master, or grandmaster examples while EE is the first Minor trait in the explosive line. The fact that EE refreshes on dodge, does critical damage, and can be made to blind without reducing its damage makes it considerably stronger than other traits that easily fit into a similar (on hit proc or on hit of certain action) options on other professions. Thats just how I look at the situation. Other professions have had their passive on hit proc triats reduced to basically tickle damage while EE basically acts like a proper extra skill. This is why people still say it needs a nerf. They want their on hit passives to have their damage back and be able to critically hit or they want EE in the same tier. Even more so because its a minor and many of the things I listed above are as i said Adept, Master, and Grand master options.

> @"Shao.7236" said: > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > @"Shao.7236" said: > > > If that's to be taken seriously, core rev has already been nerfed in a broken way which did not affect Renegade because people don't actually play like it. > > > > > > They seriously need to consider the real issue on Renegade which is speed rune, legitimately the only reason why the build is so strong and that doesn't account other builds that exploits the 66% as well which could use it also instead of having their class changed in anyway. > > > > Generally dont agree. > > Renegade was untouched for months LITTERALLY until they reworked seven shot to make shortbow a decent weapon in pvp. Speed rune has been in the game far longer and if the main issue was speed rune and only speed rune then renegade would have been ideally just as strong before the changes to the shortbow weapon which was certainly not the case as almost none was playing renegade at that time. > > > > In my opinion the reasoning why renegade is as strong as it is is because of how safe it can be while now pushing out above average dps from ranged even with seven shot alone (A skill initially designed to not have all 7 arrows hit the single target, that had very high power scaling and condition cover out put.) This along with other small tweaks to shortbow which made its ability to hit much more consistent made renegade viable as a pvp option. > > > > The idea that suddenly speed rune makes it overperform when there were several other factors that are being over looked makes me disagree with you on this. > > - Multiple changes that considerably improved the shortbow's ease of use and performance possibly putting it above swords effectiveness with less risk as a ranged weapon. > > - New combo potential with jails legend providing more sustain and defense which most players did not touch in the past because everyone was too busy playing glint/shiro standard. > > > > You dont have to agree but i think speed rune is a bit too basic to be the main factor to blame in that case. Its a good rune option but one that everyone can more or less use evenly and can even be negated entirely by using the rune yourself or stripping the foe's swiftness. Its not restrictive while also be super advantageous as something like Trapper (on Ranger or DH) or Resistance (more effective professions that have low cd elites like rev) > > > > The build is not optimally played like Rev should be, it's campy and easy to survive on because nothing can catch up to it while the user can sit back and relax on upkeep, reason being speed runes exclusively. Tbh this statement seems very subjective as each person could have a different vision of how "It should be" played so im not sure that has value here. Part of it is also having a valid ranged weapon speed rune or not rev DID NOT have this before because hammer is not viable in spvp. The difference in having a viable ranged weapon and not having one extremely changes how a class can be played regardless of its movement speed options. If they made rifle less clunky on warrior you would find them harder to chase down too because they would have reliable source of ranged damage to pressure with when you kite them or when they need to kite you. Ignoring this fact makes me less faithful in the claim you are making that "oh speed runes makes the build an issue." We still also have to consider how jails fits into the picture providing a no stun zone, damage reduction, and a taunt which people literally chose not to use because everyone ran glint/shiro. obviously Jails has proven to provide a nice chunk of sustain when used properly especially with damage nerfed. Truth is its likely not just the speed rune its a combo of everything above all together. I get you dont want core rev skills changed or shortbow nerfed when it just became viable but I'm not willing to blame a rune for making the build perform well alone too many factors mixed in for me to just out right say that at this point. > Without it, it's a complete different game to play the build. I could also say this if you take away the now viable shortbow though. > Because every professions can use it doesn't mean it's balanced, values are too high and to tell people they should use it is not solving the issue. If more professions can use it more or less equally its more balanced than many of the other rune options in the game. Again telling someone to use it is an option to negate the bonus if you have trouble catching your targets. Right now i dont see the rune as an issue globally. There are also other options that work like stripping the swiftness from the user. We will just have to agree to disagree.

> @"Shao.7236" said: > If that's to be taken seriously, core rev has already been nerfed in a broken way which did not affect Renegade because people don't actually play like it. > > They seriously need to consider the real issue on Renegade which is speed rune, legitimately the only reason why the build is so strong and that doesn't account other builds that exploits the 66% as well which could use it also instead of having their class changed in anyway. Generally dont agree. Renegade was untouched for months LITTERALLY until they reworked seven shot to make shortbow a decent weapon in pvp. Speed rune has been in the game far longer and if the main issue was speed rune and only speed rune then renegade would have been ideally just as strong before the changes to the shortbow weapon which was certainly not the case as almost none was playing renegade at that time. In my opinion the reasoning why renegade is as strong as it is is because of how safe it can be while now pushing out above average dps from ranged even with seven shot alone (A skill initially designed to not have all 7 arrows hit the single target, that had very high power scaling and condition cover out put.) This along with other small tweaks to shortbow which made its ability to hit much more consistent made renegade viable as a pvp option. The idea that suddenly speed rune makes it overperform when there were several other factors that are being over looked makes me disagree with you on this. - Multiple changes that considerably improved the shortbow's ease of use and performance possibly putting it above swords effectiveness with less risk as a ranged weapon. - New combo potential with jails legend providing more sustain and defense which most players did not touch in the past because everyone was too busy playing glint/shiro standard. You dont have to agree but i think speed rune is a bit too basic to be the main factor to blame in that case. Its a good rune option but one that everyone can more or less use evenly and can even be negated entirely by using the rune yourself or stripping the foe's swiftness. Its not restrictive while also be super advantageous as something like Trapper (on Ranger or DH) or Resistance (more effective professions that have low cd elites like rev)

> @"Shao.7236" said: > As long as it's not bugged depending on movement speed, it can't really be an issue. Clearly Rush not just one skill but two depending if the target is reached or not hence why it's not comparable to Swoop or Leap of Faith in practice. Best they can do is fix the tool tip with the proper info about it so that's it's better understood, such as; > > Damage: 686 (1.7) > Attack Range: 300 > Range:1200 > > They've done something similar with Deathstrike which is mostly how Warrior Rush feels like anyway, a sequence. > > @"Yasai.3549" People actually retarget with Rush, so nah. It's seeking property is never really lost. Remember when cripple and chill countered gap closing skills that were not blinks or shadow steps..... Gone are those days of simply being able to cripple someone to reduce their effectiveness in chasing you with skills like that ;) Not gonna say rush should be nerfed but i just wanted to point out at one point there were things you could do to help in getting away from skills like that. In truth i take rush as one of those skills you have to plan to eat, block, or dodge. Its just that good of a skill mechanically it rarely fails to reach the target if its in range and tracks extremely well. Last thing I want to see anet do is take a decent skill and break it mechanically trying to mess with it tbh. The better option would be to give warriors better options by making their other weapons less clunky *cough* rifle (screaming) *Cough* hammer *COUGH* off hand mace (skill 5 particularly) Right now i dont see almost every power based warrior build not including a GS in it because there really is not much else to use that does not feel oddly clunk. GS go BRRRRRRRRRR

> @"Shao.7236" said: > When you accept the queue, the profession should be locked. > > If having to switch to your PvP character is something you need, they can increase ready time by a minute before you can press it, the current system allows it. > > Being able to fall back on whatever people want based on what they've been paired against is one of the biggest reason why the meta is so stale and barely with any innovation. > > Forcing people to stick to their guns will emerge new builds of greater or lesser tiers to fullfill needed roles in their team. Having them to work at any degree is the only part that matters. > > This would EASILY force players to improve and know their profession better as well, including AT's. Allowing strategies to shift at a limited extend is what conquest really needs. > > If everyone wants to play meta, then should their team be stacked with it and end up with the weakness multiplied, knowing what the other team will play is already a big thing, adjusting the locked profession builds to meet the demand is how you'll see different things show up. Something ive been hoping they would change for a long time now. Its kinda gross to see people swap right before match starts because they peeked at the enemy team comp. Another simple solution is to hide the professions and names on the score board till the match starts.

If you want the builds to be less braindead remove or rework rune of the trapper its the real thing that makes the build braindead. If you can add stealth to any class on utility useage you would find that any of them would become much harder to defeat simply because the stealth mechanic provides such a large advantage without enough tools that properly counterplay it without having to put a special skill on your bar or you traits that would do it.

Reads combat log... Hmmm interesting..... [Me](http://www.court-records.net/animation/edgeworth-document(b).gif "")

> @"trixantea.1230" said: > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > There are so many reason you really dont want to do this at least in pvp in pve it would be less of an issue. > > > > Generally its better off not being an auto that repeats for a few reasons. > > 1: To use other skills you would often end up interrupting it which means canceling the auto to cast another skill which waste a tiny mount, but not alot, of lich duration time. > > 2: The bigger reason is for more control so you dont end up spamming those powerful hands into reflects believe it or not even in pve there are tiny few situations where you wouldnt want to be doing autos as lich. In pvp you certainly dont want to be doing that. > > > > If you need max dps from lich autos just hold down the 1 key when you want to cast it only its the same as having the skill be auto repeat. You dont need to tap it over and over just hold it down and the skill will cast as fast as possible without gaps between unless you chose to do another action. > > > this is situational and subjective. anet could simply fix this and let everyone decide for themselves if autoattack OFF or ON is best for them. So long as its optional i would be fine with that but i certainly wouldnt want it to be always default auto attack on is all im saying. That said i dont think this would be something on a priority fix.

There are so many reason you really dont want to do this at least in pvp in pve it would be less of an issue. Generally its better off not being an auto that repeats for a few reasons. 1: To use other skills you would often end up interrupting it which means canceling the auto to cast another skill which waste a tiny mount, but not alot, of lich duration time. 2: The bigger reason is for more control so you dont end up spamming those powerful hands into reflects believe it or not even in pve there are tiny few situations where you wouldnt want to be doing autos as lich. In pvp you certainly dont want to be doing that. If you need max dps from lich autos just hold down the 1 key when you want to cast it only its the same as having the skill be auto repeat. You dont need to tap it over and over just hold it down and the skill will cast as fast as possible without gaps between unless you chose to do another action.

> @"Vallun.2071" said: > > @"KrHome.1920" said: > > In my posting there is not a single word stating he is a bad player. The posting is about the situations he uses as examples for the builds to work. These are low skill level situations on the opponents side. The only thing I could criticize here regarding him is why you would pick bad players as opponents to demonstrate a build. That doesn't make sense and to me this would be wasted time for the production of the video. > > > > Sure the tone is harsh, but think about the bigger picture: tons of bronze division skill level players jumped on the nerf train after he made that minion master video, even though minion master is trash - without any doubt. He was basically provoking nerf demands for things that are already trash on necro. Now it's the same with scepter/dagger and power core necro (both is not viable). S/D is the worst you can run on necro and producing videos that cherrypick situations where it worked somehow, sends the wrong message to the devs and the community. If you honestly care about necro, then you don't do this. > > It's not cherrypicking if this is how most of the PvP matches are. If I want to find a good match I have to play for many hours or only at prime time. I don't really invest that much time into a simple build video. I kinda get where KrHome is coming from truth be told while I doubt its intentional Vallun many of the videos you have made or builds you have played often quickly get picked up by a large portion of players which then anet, in a good number of cases, had to considerably nerf just because of the sheer amount of people using those tools which were deemed op or very frustrating by the wider majority of players even if the top or more experienced players do not agree with said statements. I doubt its your intentions for that to happen, but it does happen so I can understand where he is coming from with this perspective of thinking. As a necro main myself I hate the minion master trope that so many players have taken too lately (while i cant really say i would blame you for it in this case) there are already rumors going around that its going to be nerfed despite it being counterable by a good number of builds and professions. Power core on the other hand has always been one of my personal fav builds for core necro however its considerably harder to find success with against more experienced players so i doubt anyone will just pick that up and think its free wins.... they are welcome to try though lol. (granted i take a bolder trait setup in my core power build) I guess my point is. If enough people play something they think will get them easy results it will become obnoxious to those who are not playing it especially when they start to come across more and more of that same play style and build. Those people are the ones who often ended up asking anet to do something about it because its "not fun" to play against which anet has to take into consideration because there is no point in playing a video game if its not fun right... Still not a bad basic video for people who want to play core necro.

In dragon response missions there is an option to make enemies harder and it gives them a pretty nasty boon table i was actually surprised at how much stronger the trash mobs became when they attack all at the same time with those boons on. I then i have to ask why they were not like that from the start in general. Other mechanics like killing one empowers the others were also in effect if i recall which is a good mechanic generally. I actually had to take a bit of boon strip/ boon converts for the first time for good reason in pve (outside of fractals) That said the most important balance i want them to do in pve is opening more options for support and not letting firebrand and renegade always be the only meta acceptable requirement for 90% of groups. i was in a fractal group who wait 30 mins for an alac. the other night and because no one switched the group just dissolved after waiting 30 mins. Like realistically we could have done 1 or 2 of the 3 dailies in that amount of time without an alac but people are so hard stuck on the meta they would rather sit there for half an hour only to make no progress than shift off meta a lil bit. As for me on my main necro i run mostly 2 builds my raid setup when i want to do serious damage and my lazy unlimited shroud setup where i want to feel all powerful with minimal effort on my part. This lets me turn my brain off and just play. I also just started playing other classes a lil more just for the heck of it.

> @"Kachros.4751" said: > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > @"Kachros.4751" said: > > > Im too lazy to read through and see if anyone agrees with what i think but. Nerfing or removing the rune is absurdly stupid and shouldnt be done, the main issue is that it has too much damage regardless if it uses that rune or not. If you want to make it still playable (even though its not the best because people are learning how to counter it) then just nerf the f1 passive and possibly the spirit sword vulnerability stacks or how many hits it has. There we go, less damage but still good node pressure and decent survability alone and you dont kill the class because of a rune that you dislike. Im not justifying that trapper rune is perfectly fine but its only used for burn dh and nothing else thats remotely useful. So why change the rune when there are multiple other possibilities? > > > > I dont agree > > Because having damage is fine so long as you are squishy for having that damage > > However stealth and superspeed provide a means of sustain that it should not have even if that stealth only drops traget for a second or two. A second or two with super speed can make a massive difference in positioning which can provide sustain that it otherwise wouldnt have. > > > > High damage but squishy is fine > > Low damage but more sustain is fine > > High damage and high sustain is not fine unless you are a snail. > > I do count mechanics like stealth as added sustain because its a drop target and assuming nothin walks into the traps and you dont get revealed its time you have to take the advantage or wait for cds. > > > > Needs to be changed for a few reasons. > > No class should be able to add stealth + superspeed to its near its entire utility kit if this existed for something that only worked on necro or warrior skills you wouldnt agree with it and would say the rune should be removed because broken bonuses and only works with one two other classes. > > Secondly it only works for 2 classes DH and Ranger so saying that DH is the only one that uses it really has no value in your point. Other classes dont use it because other classes dont have traps to activate the strongest part of the rune. > > > > DH at a base level likely needs very few changes and nerfs to traps are not one of them. > > The constant burn when speared maybe could be looked into because there is no way to avoid 12k incoming condi damage once speared unless you go invuln or have the power to spam clears our the wazooo. True shot could maybe get a slight shave too. Other than that imo DH would be fine imo. > > > > But as it sits right now you are generally fighting the runes mechanics and not the traps or other DH skills and thats not a good thing. Its similar to the Mad king rune situation which was nerfed a while back. Only like 2 classes were making use of it but it was super powerful when used with their low cd elite skills > > Yet this class is squishy and dies to even a thief in about 4 seconds. Most of the traps does damage and can instnatly reveal them from stealth. actually casting f1 is the most stupid thing a burn dh can do unless they take the virtues traitline (to allow passives constantly) but should they use f1 its easily dodged. I mean its not like you see trap rangers being viable... and its because NO ONE stands in the aoes and so they dont die... literally just do that with guardian and there wouldnt be an issue but most people cant press W out of the aoes. If you try to argue that it has good damage offnode then its because of the f1 passive again which is why i say it should be nerfed and not the rune itself. Its dodged easily if its not thrown from stealth if thrown from stealth you are dodging on rng which is not really feasible but again thats a rune mechanic making it stronger than what it is. Actually no casting the F1 and leaving it in a target who cant get out of range actually deals alot of unavoidable damage as the only thing that stops those conditions from being applied at taht point is to clear them or be invuln. Evades dont stop the incoming burn or cripple which can actually kill alot of builds on its own. Granted you shouldn't use the pull unless the spear is about to expire or you are about to make a big play but literally go spear a player and just watch them melt i do it all the time. There are a few builds that strat wont work on but a large portion of them it does work on. Its less about the aoes and more about the extra sustain trapper rune provides by adding strong effects on trap use that dragon hunter or really any class should not have period. Again its less about dealing with the traps or the dragon hunter skills and more dealing with the mechanics of the rune. While yes you can take damage from the traps to force reveal the caster why would anyone want to take free damage depending on the situation thats not a good thing or does it make a difference the break target for a second or two with super speed provides and advantage thats pretty massive. I would rather see the root of the issue go so then people have less to complain about, people are less bothered by DH and more bothered by the rune mechanics which says enough. Lets not nerf the class because a rune is making it stronger than it should be just fix the issue by changing the rune or removing it. Thats what they did for mad king rune.

> @"Kuma.1503" said: > ## Sasuke Uchiha I laughed way too hard omg

> @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said: > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > Edit: This is also only possible because Thief is forever jailed to Trickery. If we were trying to run with only 12 ini again, then LOL have fun never being able to cast anything. > > You mean 10 Ini...but ya basically. We're only allowed to play one build...that is the build that anet wants us to play....do as you are told! you make a point but imo most skills these days should be designed closer to p/p #3 Use a skill with high cost > get some cost refunded if your hits land That would help offset the cost increases anet is doing around the board. Wile you cant do that in examples of skills like IA Many of the point cost increases on some skills are due to the play style of push x button to win or avoid. When the skills were not in check the play style of just button mashing was effective enough to annoy players at just about any skill level. Unload might not be the best example cause it requires all your hits to land to get a refund but in the case of many skills that only have one strike it would have made more sense to rebalance the cost with a on hit return system. You do bring up a very good point though that they are only further locking down the idea that you must run trickery which is not exactly a good thing. At the same time the moment something gets out of line people just default to press x button for reward. Thief is in a tough spot. Keep in mind what im saying applies to general thief skills not specifically IA I have mixed feelings about the cost increase on IA. But from what i can read so far alot of people want mobility lowered so... ehhh i cant really say too much.

> @"foste.3098" said: > Now we just need to wait 8 more months for them to actually balance the class around not having as much mobility and we will get to what the thief was advertised as to begin with: a glassy and slippery duelist. almost had that with daredevil but initially but oops.... here is hoping to a evasive balanced duelist thats not heavily dependent on ez stealth access in xpack 3

People play core engi in pvp? I think i know like one person who seriously play it in pvp and they dont hinge on the things that were nerfed.....

> @"Kachros.4751" said: > Im too lazy to read through and see if anyone agrees with what i think but. Nerfing or removing the rune is absurdly stupid and shouldnt be done, the main issue is that it has too much damage regardless if it uses that rune or not. If you want to make it still playable (even though its not the best because people are learning how to counter it) then just nerf the f1 passive and possibly the spirit sword vulnerability stacks or how many hits it has. There we go, less damage but still good node pressure and decent survability alone and you dont kill the class because of a rune that you dislike. Im not justifying that trapper rune is perfectly fine but its only used for burn dh and nothing else thats remotely useful. So why change the rune when there are multiple other possibilities? I dont agree Because having damage is fine so long as you are squishy for having that damage However stealth and superspeed provide a means of sustain that it should not have even if that stealth only drops traget for a second or two. A second or two with super speed can make a massive difference in positioning which can provide sustain that it otherwise wouldnt have. High damage but squishy is fine Low damage but more sustain is fine High damage and high sustain is not fine unless you are a snail. I do count mechanics like stealth as added sustain because its a drop target and assuming nothin walks into the traps and you dont get revealed its time you have to take the advantage or wait for cds. Needs to be changed for a few reasons. No class should be able to add stealth + superspeed to its near its entire utility kit if this existed for something that only worked on necro or warrior skills you wouldnt agree with it and would say the rune should be removed because broken bonuses and only works with one two other classes. Secondly it only works for 2 classes DH and Ranger so saying that DH is the only one that uses it really has no value in your point. Other classes dont use it because other classes dont have traps to activate the strongest part of the rune. DH at a base level likely needs very few changes and nerfs to traps are not one of them. The constant burn when speared maybe could be looked into because there is no way to avoid 12k incoming condi damage once speared unless you go invuln or have the power to spam clears our the wazooo. True shot could maybe get a slight shave too. Other than that imo DH would be fine imo. But as it sits right now you are generally fighting the runes mechanics and not the traps or other DH skills and thats not a good thing. Its similar to the Mad king rune situation which was nerfed a while back. Only like 2 classes were making use of it but it was super powerful when used with their low cd elite skills

adding skill modifiers built into base skills that deal more damage to cc'ed targets would be the better way to make up dps loss from taking damage away from cc skills. Especially on warrior who got hurt the most from the cc loss. Warriors hammer skill 2 is a prime example of what i mean. They would have to be careful what skills got the damage increase against cc'ed targets though. IT also still does not address some of the slower big cc skills that probably deserve their damage back or a total rework/buff though.

> @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > > > In order to actually apply any meaningful damage, a DH's target has to stand still for at least 3 seconds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Therefore, there are only 2 circumstances under which a burn-DH can actually get a kill: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) Enemy is brain-dead and stands still in middle of traps, symbols, SoJ > > > > > > > 2) Enemy is trapped in Dragon's Maw > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Assuming you aren't brain-dead, kill-condition 1) is not viable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Therefore the ONLY kill-condition for a burn-DH is 2), i.e., Dragon's Maw. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you save a durational block, a durational evade, an invuln or a teleport for Dragon's Maw, the DH simply cannot kill you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The current "fashion" for burn-DH's comes down to this very basic lack of knowledge from those playing against it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nevermind the fact that the current build runs 0 stunbreak, 0 stability, 0 insta-cast saves, which means it can be chain-CC'd from 100 to 0 with absolutely no way of doing anything about it, and has only 1 cleanse on 25s CD which is easily interrupted. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As soon as people start learning how to counter this, it'll disappear as quickly as it appeared. > > > > > > > > > > > > I would agree but thats not really a thing anymore. > > > > > > The only way you really hard counter it is by having AI's that can tank the traps for you in many cases its less about the traps and more about the stealth/ superspeed on multiple buttons anyways. > > > > > > Those runs grant a unhealthy level of sustain to any build that can use them simply due to the fact that they can vanish better than a core thief can with a better movement bonus. Ideally you could force a reveal by stepping into the trap on purpose but when ever is that a good idea. > > > > > > Keep in mind not all classes have the tools you listed. (invulns) > > > > > > Evades do not get you out of dragon maw if you dodge into a horrible position. > > > > > > Teleports dont always promise your safety either if you get chained by spear of justice while the DH is invis which gives it no tell. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ideally the runes are unhealthy > > > > > > Reworking it to be on heal or on elite skill only (perform x action) would be much more balanced at least that would make it fair to all professions and not exclusive to DH and Ranger which is another issue i have with it currently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, every class does have a tool to deal with Dragon's Maw. > > > > > > > > > > Warrior: Shield Stance, Full Counter, Warhorn #5 > > > > > Rev: Shield Block, Staff Block, Infuse Light, the various damage reduction stuff from Jalis > > > > > Guard: Shelter, RF, DH F3, porting out with sword or JI > > > > > Ranger: GS Block > > > > > Thief: Shadowstep, Steal, Daggerstorm > > > > > Engi: Shield Block, Hammer Block, Elixir S > > > > > Mesmer: Distort, various Blinks > > > > > Ele: Obsidian Flesh, a whole array of evades and teleports > > > > > Necro: Flesh Worm, or just face-tank it all with shroud and then transfer all of the burning right back at them. > > > > > > > > > > I haven't even mentioned cleanses here, just stuff to negate Maw. > > > > > > > > > > It simply comes down to discipline of when you know there's a burnDH about of keeping track of Maw usage and making sure you have 1 of these available when you reckon the DH has Maw ready to use. > > > > > > > > > > People will eventually build this discipline, but they haven't yet. It's like learning to pressure a Reaper when it's out of shroud and kiting during, once you've got that mentality locked in then Reaper goes from looking OMGWTFBROKENOP to being entirely manageable. > > > > Generally its unhealthy and not all of those tools are super effective at dealing with DH traps ontop of trapper rune. Some of the tools are effective during the activation and during the lasting duration some of them are not effective during the activation at all as trap activations are UNBLOCKABLE. Evasive skills will get interrupted for trying to leave dragons maw as well and it last much longer than those skills do. > > > > > > You don't need to block the trap activation. Once it has activated, stand still and block for the duration. > > > > > > You don't need to evade out of the trap. Once it has activated, stand still and evade for the duration. > > > > > > See, this is the problem I'm highlighting. People panic and start going "omg omg what do I do" and they keep face-planting into the sides of the trap. Just stay cool, stand still, block or use a non-directional evade, and if you have nothing else then just wait 2 seconds before hitting your cleanse (i.e. wait for most of the burns to be applied) rather than mashing it instantly (when you only have 2 burn on you). > > > > When you are pressed for time in a match its hard to tell people to keep a cool head > > Regardless you are correct and i agree with what you are saying here but you are still missing my point as well. > > Try to keep an open mind about the other things i pointed and why people have a bad taste about the rune. > > TBH, I don't care much if Trapper Rune gets nerfed or removed, or if Burn-DH gets nerfed out of viability. I don't play it (I dabble in unranked, but not in ranked/AT). > > But what I am concerned about is that people who don't understand how to play or play against the build will cry for all sorts of nerfs which are actually nothing to do with the problem. > > You see it so many times on so many builds, people entirely failing to understand the root problem, and calling for nerfs on x/y/z which really are unrelated. > > Symbols, Traps, Permeating Wrath, Sword of Justice, none of these are major issues on other builds. The root cause of any issue with Burn DH comes down to Dragon's Maw out of stealth. No Maw, No Kills. I dont think the traps need to be nerfed cause they are less of the problem like you said there are methods to out play the traps which most people should be fine with learning against but adding high stealth uptime to a class that was not generally designed to have it gives a edge that it really shouldnt have its less people not understanding the traps and more so the fact that the runes cover up alot of weaknesses that the DH should have. While thats my opinion im sure many others might see that from similar perspective. Tell some one to learn how to fight dragon hunter and the might say "ok" Tell them to also learn how to fight the mechanics of trapper rune and its a bit dumb. Its less about the dh builds and more about the runes strong effects going off so constantly when used and the fact that other classes dont have runes that provide such powerful effects its less about knowing how to fight base dragon hunter and more about how frustrating fighting the rune mechanics are.

> @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > In order to actually apply any meaningful damage, a DH's target has to stand still for at least 3 seconds. > > > > > > > > > > Therefore, there are only 2 circumstances under which a burn-DH can actually get a kill: > > > > > > > > > > 1) Enemy is brain-dead and stands still in middle of traps, symbols, SoJ > > > > > 2) Enemy is trapped in Dragon's Maw > > > > > > > > > > Assuming you aren't brain-dead, kill-condition 1) is not viable. > > > > > > > > > > Therefore the ONLY kill-condition for a burn-DH is 2), i.e., Dragon's Maw. > > > > > > > > > > If you save a durational block, a durational evade, an invuln or a teleport for Dragon's Maw, the DH simply cannot kill you. > > > > > > > > > > The current "fashion" for burn-DH's comes down to this very basic lack of knowledge from those playing against it. > > > > > > > > > > Nevermind the fact that the current build runs 0 stunbreak, 0 stability, 0 insta-cast saves, which means it can be chain-CC'd from 100 to 0 with absolutely no way of doing anything about it, and has only 1 cleanse on 25s CD which is easily interrupted. > > > > > > > > > > As soon as people start learning how to counter this, it'll disappear as quickly as it appeared. > > > > > > > > I would agree but thats not really a thing anymore. > > > > The only way you really hard counter it is by having AI's that can tank the traps for you in many cases its less about the traps and more about the stealth/ superspeed on multiple buttons anyways. > > > > Those runs grant a unhealthy level of sustain to any build that can use them simply due to the fact that they can vanish better than a core thief can with a better movement bonus. Ideally you could force a reveal by stepping into the trap on purpose but when ever is that a good idea. > > > > Keep in mind not all classes have the tools you listed. (invulns) > > > > Evades do not get you out of dragon maw if you dodge into a horrible position. > > > > Teleports dont always promise your safety either if you get chained by spear of justice while the DH is invis which gives it no tell. > > > > > > > > Ideally the runes are unhealthy > > > > Reworking it to be on heal or on elite skill only (perform x action) would be much more balanced at least that would make it fair to all professions and not exclusive to DH and Ranger which is another issue i have with it currently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, every class does have a tool to deal with Dragon's Maw. > > > > > > Warrior: Shield Stance, Full Counter, Warhorn #5 > > > Rev: Shield Block, Staff Block, Infuse Light, the various damage reduction stuff from Jalis > > > Guard: Shelter, RF, DH F3, porting out with sword or JI > > > Ranger: GS Block > > > Thief: Shadowstep, Steal, Daggerstorm > > > Engi: Shield Block, Hammer Block, Elixir S > > > Mesmer: Distort, various Blinks > > > Ele: Obsidian Flesh, a whole array of evades and teleports > > > Necro: Flesh Worm, or just face-tank it all with shroud and then transfer all of the burning right back at them. > > > > > > I haven't even mentioned cleanses here, just stuff to negate Maw. > > > > > > It simply comes down to discipline of when you know there's a burnDH about of keeping track of Maw usage and making sure you have 1 of these available when you reckon the DH has Maw ready to use. > > > > > > People will eventually build this discipline, but they haven't yet. It's like learning to pressure a Reaper when it's out of shroud and kiting during, once you've got that mentality locked in then Reaper goes from looking OMGWTFBROKENOP to being entirely manageable. > > Generally its unhealthy and not all of those tools are super effective at dealing with DH traps ontop of trapper rune. Some of the tools are effective during the activation and during the lasting duration some of them are not effective during the activation at all as trap activations are UNBLOCKABLE. Evasive skills will get interrupted for trying to leave dragons maw as well and it last much longer than those skills do. > > You don't need to block the trap activation. Once it has activated, stand still and block for the duration. > > You don't need to evade out of the trap. Once it has activated, stand still and evade for the duration. > > See, this is the problem I'm highlighting. People panic and start going "omg omg what do I do" and they keep face-planting into the sides of the trap. Just stay cool, stand still, block or use a non-directional evade, and if you have nothing else then just wait 2 seconds before hitting your cleanse (i.e. wait for most of the burns to be applied) rather than mashing it instantly (when you only have 2 burn on you). When you are pressed for time in a match its hard to tell people to keep a cool head Regardless you are correct and i agree with what you are saying here but you are still missing my point as well. Try to keep an open mind about the other things i pointed and why people have a bad taste about the rune.

> @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > I strongly suggest you **to actually play elementalist** , because right now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing without a single "shred" of evidence...... ive played it (im not that good at it but ive played it) im sure if i put 5-6k hours into it like i did on necro i would be great at it too. But thematically its not as fun as i had hoped it would be. It gets boring for me very quickly. > > >Ele = takes more effort to play offensively and less to play defensively as it has hard defenses and good access to things like vigor, extra evade skills, better movement skills, and depending on the elite superior access to stability when compared to necromancer > > Like.....**where are these hard defenses?** > -https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Obsidian_Flesh > -https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Arcane_Shield > -https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mist_Form > > Are these the "hard defenses" you referring to?... Yes those are examples of hard defenses they stop/block/avoid damage all together Blocking/avoiding damage is always better than soaking damage there is no argument you could make that will make this statement untrue. > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tornado > > Is this your "superior Elite"?.....sad....a strawman argument Lol its must be pretty good if anet is still nerfing it just saying bro... > > >Just deal with the fact that your counter is necro and always has been probably always will be > I will remind you of this sentence every time you'll pop out on the forum asking for nerfs.......we should start from these fresh "nerf ranger" threads every necro likes to pop in, where is your....."deal with the fact that your counter is X" argument? What is it? Can't deal with the idea of a counter to necro? > Necro has many counters and i accept it when i lose to them. Ele unfortunately is not one of them in most build situations. Necro is most easily countered by Thief Warrior And Rangers (usually with a longbow setup) Generally over time you learn to get better at dealing with them and it feels great when you beat them. Sometimes you get outplayed and sometimes you cant do a darn thing about it and you will just lose. Thief has one build in-particular right now thats not popular that kills me every single time. Necro does not have enough of an open window to be able to outplay it but this is also the case for most other professions and high skilled players (far above my level of skill) agree with that most professions cant do anything about that specific build which means it is warranted for a nerf if it ever becomes meta. THANKFULLY ITS NOT POPULAR YET. If you spent as much time practicing and experimenting against the common necro/reaper builds as you do arguing on here with me you would have found by now that some way of dealing with them i bet.

> @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > In order to actually apply any meaningful damage, a DH's target has to stand still for at least 3 seconds. > > > > > > Therefore, there are only 2 circumstances under which a burn-DH can actually get a kill: > > > > > > 1) Enemy is brain-dead and stands still in middle of traps, symbols, SoJ > > > 2) Enemy is trapped in Dragon's Maw > > > > > > Assuming you aren't brain-dead, kill-condition 1) is not viable. > > > > > > Therefore the ONLY kill-condition for a burn-DH is 2), i.e., Dragon's Maw. > > > > > > If you save a durational block, a durational evade, an invuln or a teleport for Dragon's Maw, the DH simply cannot kill you. > > > > > > The current "fashion" for burn-DH's comes down to this very basic lack of knowledge from those playing against it. > > > > > > Nevermind the fact that the current build runs 0 stunbreak, 0 stability, 0 insta-cast saves, which means it can be chain-CC'd from 100 to 0 with absolutely no way of doing anything about it, and has only 1 cleanse on 25s CD which is easily interrupted. > > > > > > As soon as people start learning how to counter this, it'll disappear as quickly as it appeared. > > > > I would agree but thats not really a thing anymore. > > The only way you really hard counter it is by having AI's that can tank the traps for you in many cases its less about the traps and more about the stealth/ superspeed on multiple buttons anyways. > > Those runs grant a unhealthy level of sustain to any build that can use them simply due to the fact that they can vanish better than a core thief can with a better movement bonus. Ideally you could force a reveal by stepping into the trap on purpose but when ever is that a good idea. > > Keep in mind not all classes have the tools you listed. (invulns) > > Evades do not get you out of dragon maw if you dodge into a horrible position. > > Teleports dont always promise your safety either if you get chained by spear of justice while the DH is invis which gives it no tell. > > > > Ideally the runes are unhealthy > > Reworking it to be on heal or on elite skill only (perform x action) would be much more balanced at least that would make it fair to all professions and not exclusive to DH and Ranger which is another issue i have with it currently. > > > > > > No, every class does have a tool to deal with Dragon's Maw. > > Warrior: Shield Stance, Full Counter, Warhorn #5 > Rev: Shield Block, Staff Block, Infuse Light, the various damage reduction stuff from Jalis > Guard: Shelter, RF, DH F3, porting out with sword or JI > Ranger: GS Block > Thief: Shadowstep, Steal, Daggerstorm > Engi: Shield Block, Hammer Block, Elixir S > Mesmer: Distort, various Blinks > Ele: Obsidian Flesh, a whole array of evades and teleports > Necro: Flesh Worm, or just face-tank it all with shroud and then transfer all of the burning right back at them. > > I haven't even mentioned cleanses here, just stuff to negate Maw. > > It simply comes down to discipline of when you know there's a burnDH about of keeping track of Maw usage and making sure you have 1 of these available when you reckon the DH has Maw ready to use. > > People will eventually build this discipline, but they haven't yet. It's like learning to pressure a Reaper when it's out of shroud and kiting during, once you've got that mentality locked in then Reaper goes from looking OMGWTFBROKENOP to being entirely manageable. This is not a comparable example You compared fighting a elite spec which cannot add powerful mechanics it shouldnt have to its kit to a rune that specifically does that. Imagine how it would be if there was a rune that said every time you used a spectral skill you got stealth and super speed if you think that people wouldn't be upset about necro using it and suddenly having stealth+ super speed on multiple buttons you would be dead wrong. Its one thing to learn how to fight a class but giving broad access to mechanics that class shouldnt have that only it and one other class can make use of is not particularly a good thing. People dont even like the fact that necros have the option to a rune like rune of speed EVEN THOUGH EVERYONE CAN USE IT FOR THE SAME BENEFIT which makes it light years more balanced than trapper at a base level. While part of the issue is how stealth works in this game in generally i think you should understand my point. Generally its unhealthy and not all of those tools are super effective at dealing with DH traps ontop of trapper rune. Some of the tools are effective during the activation and during the lasting duration some of them are not effective during the activation at all as trap activations are UNBLOCKABLE. Evasive skills will get interrupted for trying to leave dragons maw as well and it last much longer than those skills do. I think a rune that only 2 classes can use that provide a big effects like stealth + superspeed both being very powerful tools in generally probably shouldn't be in the game. IF it was one or the other i doubt people would care, if it had a icd i doubt people would care, if it was on elite skill or heal skill only i doubt people would care. Im not saying its the only busted thing in the game as of right now but its certainly unhealthy. For many people its degenerate and unfun to play against i get the point you are coming from basically saying. Just learn to counter and to some extent you can but how much extra ease should a rune like that really provide to only 2 classes out of the 9 in the entire game. Im fine with learning to play around it but im also fine with it being reworked so its at least a little less effective or usable by all professions and not just 2.