Please make everyone's life easier and just remove small shades.

[Meetshield.1756]

The only reason to run small shades was the Shade overlap, which was clearly a bug. I believe player strike overlap with sand savant shade is not really all that broken. It gives Scourge decent dps at 900 range, and stronger dps at 300 range. The whole point of Necro is to be a space denial class. We can't chase or run, so we need to be able to hold our own inside our space. Small Shade overlap made it a broken class, cuz 4 strikes is clearly too much. The Developers should realize you will always have to balance Scourge for 4 shade max potential and essentially ruin large shades. Large shades are the only thing that makes sense for Scourge in WvW, or any game mode where a boss or enemy is moving, or that you have more than 3 targets to hit.

 

I believe the smaller shade idea was a good one, but is impossible to balance all the traits around two completely different play scenarios. Just simplify Scourge make Sand Savant default, so that you can properly balance the class. And Yes we need large shade + player overlap and our Dhumfire back when you get a chance.

 

Thank you for the previous changes you made which I agree with.

 

PPS: There is a bug with Sand Trail you did intend for Necros to have a stability option similar to Reaper 3 which applied several stacks. The way it works now we get only 1 stack while other people behind us can get up to 3 stacks if they walk in our trail. I believe your intention was to give the Scourge the same 3 stacks over time, and the game engine isn't applying them properly. So simply give the scourge 3 stacks up front or work out the engine problem so we get our stab please.

[Zoltreez.6435]

i NEVER gonna understand why some people take Sand Savant over the 33% dmg increase trait.......

 

im all for removing the 3 small shades and Make Savant the Baseline shade and give us a New Trait...

[Meetshield.1756]

Well its mostly from a WvW player perspective. The extra Burning is nice, but in PvP or WvW, small shades are just something you can walk around and avoid. Savant is required for both the higher target cap and the sustained fighting. As well as the reduced Cooldown on the shade counter. I could see in PVE where mobs are tanked and don't move that a small shade is pretty much the default option. If they implement the removal of small shades they could create a more support oriented Grand master, like Barrier has reduced dissipation rate or gives you toughness or something along those lines, and If you were more damage oriented you could chose the increase to torment dmg.

Big problem with Scourge / Necro however is that you have very limited options to apply torment. 3 shades that last 10 seconds and you burn through life force to apply 6-8 stacks of Torment that last 2 seconds? The 33% more dmg doesn't really benefit a Scourge much. So we /ignore that and look at the Fire which is gated by a once every 3 second proc per target.

So much is mis-understood about Scourge. It does really good power dmg actually or it did before the change, now it is a Bleed based class that has access to torment which is such terribly low duration to be mosty useless. Most of your dmg on scourge will come from condies applied by Scepter, and that does have 1 skill which can produce torment, and that skill alone might be worth the Torment 33% more dmg trait for a PVE player.

My Main concern is that they balance Scourge around 3 shades they Ruin the Large shade dmg. If they balance it around large shade then the small shade is way too strong on smaller number of targets. They need to fix the balance by removing the option, and giving the scourge a better choice on the grand master. Full support is top, Full Dmg is Middle, and Boon Rip / Utility is bottom. Large shade for WvW isn't even optional. We have 60 dudes to fight we can't play around with 3 target cap tiny shades that people can dodge roll through.

[Zoltreez.6435]

> @Meetshield.1756 said:

> Well its mostly from a WvW player perspective. The extra Burning is nice, but in PvP or WvW, small shades are just something you can walk around and avoid. Savant is required for both the higher target cap and the sustained fighting. As well as the reduced Cooldown on the shade counter. I could see in PVE where mobs are tanked and don't move that a small shade is pretty much the default option. If they implement the removal of small shades they could create a more support oriented Grand master, like Barrier has reduced dissipation rate or gives you toughness or something along those lines, and If you were more damage oriented you could chose the increase to torment dmg.

> Big problem with Scourge / Necro however is that you have very limited options to apply torment. 3 shades that last 10 seconds and you burn through life force to apply 6-8 stacks of Torment that last 2 seconds? The 33% more dmg doesn't really benefit a Scourge much. So we /ignore that and look at the Fire which is gated by a once every 3 second proc per target.

> So much is mis-understood about Scourge. It does really good power dmg actually or it did before the change, now it is a Bleed based class that has access to torment which is such terribly low duration to be mosty useless. Most of your dmg on scourge will come from condies applied by Scepter, and that does have 1 skill which can produce torment, and that skill alone might be worth the Torment 33% more dmg trait for a PVE player.

> My Main concern is that they balance Scourge around 3 shades they Ruin the Large shade dmg. If they balance it around large shade then the small shade is way too strong on smaller number of targets. They need to fix the balance by removing the option, and giving the scourge a better choice on the grand master. Full support is top, Full Dmg is Middle, and Boon Rip / Utility is bottom. Large shade for WvW isn't even optional. We have 60 dudes to fight we can't play around with 3 target cap tiny shades that people can dodge roll through.

 

i dont see this issue with 3 shades im using the 3 shades and people getting my conditions just as well as with the big shade.....

 

its WvW people dont see anything just zerging.... i have no issue at all keeping 3 shades inside zergs and overload them with conditions you just need to know where and when to put them not mindelesly throw around....

 

Also 3 shade is better for narow choke point at Keeps where they run in in a big zerg line through all 3 of my shades i put them as a line :P

 

3 shades can effect 9 people how much people 1 big shade effect ? i don't remember i stopped using it after i noticed the Huge dmg reduction i got for not chosing the DMG trait....

[Druitt.7629]

> @Zoltreez.6435 said:

> i NEVER gonna understand why some people take Sand Savant over the 33% dmg increase trait.......

 

I don't know all the numbers, and obviously things are in a state of flux with the latest patch and the upcoming patch, but there are advantages of Sand Savant: 1) you can maintain a larger radius for more targets or more consistent hits against a moving target, 2) you can sustain full 3x benefits (talents that decrease damage taken and increase duration of boons/corruptions), and 3) you have better LF management, which can allow you to reallocate skills/traits/stats for more damage or as otherwise your goal.

 

It's also physically easier to handle one rather than two or three. And you can also sustain damage against more targets with Sand Savant. With three shades, you can hit 12 targets total (3 for each, including you), while with Sand Savant you can hit 10 (5 each). So is a burst hitting 12 -- if you place things just right -- better than being able to fairly easily hit 10 for as long as you need? It's a subtle tradeoff that with the patches will tilt against non-Savant play, so I hope they either make Savant baseline or add some additional reward to having 2 or 3 shades up.

 

[ZDragon.3046]

Many people still enjoy the idea of being able to lock down 3 areas with semi perma staff marks essentially while I dislike the small range on 3 shades and with the duration going down to 10 seconds in pvp and wvw I think there is no reason to want 3 small shades anymore. I personally hate that if i even want to try to use scourge i feel forced into taking the big shade in order to have skills land other wise the range is simply to small. So make base shade range slightly bigger or make sand savant baseline there is no real reward for micro managing 3 small shades at this point.

 

While im not really fond of the 33% damage trait I do really want to test scourge with "Feed from corruption" (should be a base line thing for necro but what evsss) I just feel like having such a small range on shades and f skills by default is pointless it bothers me to much to really want to try it.

 

Hopefully in the balance patch they are already heavily considering this idea. To be honest your profession mechanic should have the default ability to hit 5 targets anyways without having to count 3 from shade and 3 from your self. A shroudless necro does not want to be in melee range of anything

[Meetshield.1756]

Well Necros if you want your damage back you will be much better off if they balance your dmg around a single placed shade on the ground, than if they give you some Theoretical max 3 shade burst which with cast time would never land on a moving target. Because once the Mechanics are set the dmg will be balanced on a Max Might Stack full buff Scourge with 3 shades bursting a stationary Golem. I'd rather have them balance it on a Single Shade, rather than on 3 because the Dmg will be more consistently available then on some cooldown.

[Zoltreez.6435]

> @Druitt.7629 said:

> > @Zoltreez.6435 said:

> > i NEVER gonna understand why some people take Sand Savant over the 33% dmg increase trait.......

>

> I don't know all the numbers, and obviously things are in a state of flux with the latest patch and the upcoming patch, but there are advantages of Sand Savant: 1) you can maintain a larger radius for more targets or more consistent hits against a moving target, 2) you can sustain full 3x benefits (talents that decrease damage taken and increase duration of boons/corruptions), and 3) you have better LF management, which can allow you to reallocate skills/traits/stats for more damage or as otherwise your goal.

>

> It's also physically easier to handle one rather than two or three. And you can also sustain damage against more targets with Sand Savant. With three shades, you can hit 12 targets total (3 for each, including you), while with Sand Savant you can hit 10 (5 each). So is a burst hitting 12 -- if you place things just right -- better than being able to fairly easily hit 10 for as long as you need? It's a subtle tradeoff that with the patches will tilt against non-Savant play, so I hope they either make Savant baseline or add some additional reward to having 2 or 3 shades up.

>

 

the Numbers are stupid....

 

i tell you why...

 

3 small shades 9 people + 33% dmg

1 big shade 5 people... with no extra dmg from trait

 

no you WON'T gonna run into an enemy Zerg with a Scourge 24/7 to get that extra 5 only if its reeeeeealy necesery or you have a death wish.... so the difference is waaaay bigger then people make it out to be.....

 

its bassicaly 4 more people and on top of it the 33% dmg......

 

Yes its easier to use but the Self Nerf not worth it....

[Meetshield.1756]

> @ZDragon.3046 said:

> Hopefully in the balance patch they are already heavily considering this idea. To be honest your profession mechanic should have the default ability to hit 5 targets anyways without having to count 3 from shade and 3 from your self. A shroudless necro does not want to be in melee range of anything

 

Right just like Reaper was forced to Pick Bitter Chill as the only option and forced to go into a Condi roll. Yeah sure the other traits were nice for reaper, but they just didn't compare to 3 Bleeds on chill.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @Zoltreez.6435 said:

> > @Meetshield.1756 said:

> > Well its mostly from a WvW player perspective. The extra Burning is nice, but in PvP or WvW, small shades are just something you can walk around and avoid. Savant is required for both the higher target cap and the sustained fighting. As well as the reduced Cooldown on the shade counter. I could see in PVE where mobs are tanked and don't move that a small shade is pretty much the default option. If they implement the removal of small shades they could create a more support oriented Grand master, like Barrier has reduced dissipation rate or gives you toughness or something along those lines, and If you were more damage oriented you could chose the increase to torment dmg.

> > Big problem with Scourge / Necro however is that you have very limited options to apply torment. 3 shades that last 10 seconds and you burn through life force to apply 6-8 stacks of Torment that last 2 seconds? The 33% more dmg doesn't really benefit a Scourge much. So we /ignore that and look at the Fire which is gated by a once every 3 second proc per target.

> > So much is mis-understood about Scourge. It does really good power dmg actually or it did before the change, now it is a Bleed based class that has access to torment which is such terribly low duration to be mosty useless. Most of your dmg on scourge will come from condies applied by Scepter, and that does have 1 skill which can produce torment, and that skill alone might be worth the Torment 33% more dmg trait for a PVE player.

> > My Main concern is that they balance Scourge around 3 shades they Ruin the Large shade dmg. If they balance it around large shade then the small shade is way too strong on smaller number of targets. They need to fix the balance by removing the option, and giving the scourge a better choice on the grand master. Full support is top, Full Dmg is Middle, and Boon Rip / Utility is bottom. Large shade for WvW isn't even optional. We have 60 dudes to fight we can't play around with 3 target cap tiny shades that people can dodge roll through.

>

> i dont see this issue with 3 shades im using the 3 shades and people getting my conditions just as well as with the big shade.....

>

> its WvW people dont see anything just zerging.... i have no issue at all keeping 3 shades inside zergs and overload them with conditions you just need to know where and when to put them not mindelesly throw around....

>

> Also 3 shade is better for narow choke point at Keeps where they run in in a big zerg line through all 3 of my shades i put them as a line :P

>

> 3 shades can effect 9 people how much people 1 big shade effect ? i don't remember i stopped using it after i noticed the Huge dmg reduction i got for not chosing the DMG trait....

 

that might be considered over performing then as you wont be hitting the same 9 people per second more importantly the time it takes you to locate and spawn all 3 wit the shades only lasting 10 seconds you would likely get full use out of 2 of them and an effective 4 seconds or less of use from the 3rd which means you really get the most effectiveness from only a max of 6 targets. 1 shade hitting 5 targets (wont be the same 5 targets if it a zerg) is more than plenty effective in zergs and wvw .

you are also looking at it from purely a wvw perspective. in pve where these things dont stack and choke points dont matter. A big shade can cover those areas or in spvp where you wont need to hit 9 people a big shade is likely a better choice.

 

Fact is you are not truly rewarded for attempting to use all 3 small shades at the same time with the duration only being 10 seconds 1 shade is less management and just as effective while giving you options that dont make you feel like you have to be locked into taking the bigger shade. Those other 2 traits really wont get any love because of it either. This also give them a chance to re make that trait into something that fits the top row of traits for heavy support.

[Zoltreez.6435]

> @ZDragon.3046 said:

> > @Zoltreez.6435 said:

> > > @Meetshield.1756 said:

> > > Well its mostly from a WvW player perspective. The extra Burning is nice, but in PvP or WvW, small shades are just something you can walk around and avoid. Savant is required for both the higher target cap and the sustained fighting. As well as the reduced Cooldown on the shade counter. I could see in PVE where mobs are tanked and don't move that a small shade is pretty much the default option. If they implement the removal of small shades they could create a more support oriented Grand master, like Barrier has reduced dissipation rate or gives you toughness or something along those lines, and If you were more damage oriented you could chose the increase to torment dmg.

> > > Big problem with Scourge / Necro however is that you have very limited options to apply torment. 3 shades that last 10 seconds and you burn through life force to apply 6-8 stacks of Torment that last 2 seconds? The 33% more dmg doesn't really benefit a Scourge much. So we /ignore that and look at the Fire which is gated by a once every 3 second proc per target.

> > > So much is mis-understood about Scourge. It does really good power dmg actually or it did before the change, now it is a Bleed based class that has access to torment which is such terribly low duration to be mosty useless. Most of your dmg on scourge will come from condies applied by Scepter, and that does have 1 skill which can produce torment, and that skill alone might be worth the Torment 33% more dmg trait for a PVE player.

> > > My Main concern is that they balance Scourge around 3 shades they Ruin the Large shade dmg. If they balance it around large shade then the small shade is way too strong on smaller number of targets. They need to fix the balance by removing the option, and giving the scourge a better choice on the grand master. Full support is top, Full Dmg is Middle, and Boon Rip / Utility is bottom. Large shade for WvW isn't even optional. We have 60 dudes to fight we can't play around with 3 target cap tiny shades that people can dodge roll through.

> >

> > i dont see this issue with 3 shades im using the 3 shades and people getting my conditions just as well as with the big shade.....

> >

> > its WvW people dont see anything just zerging.... i have no issue at all keeping 3 shades inside zergs and overload them with conditions you just need to know where and when to put them not mindelesly throw around....

> >

> > Also 3 shade is better for narow choke point at Keeps where they run in in a big zerg line through all 3 of my shades i put them as a line :P

> >

> > 3 shades can effect 9 people how much people 1 big shade effect ? i don't remember i stopped using it after i noticed the Huge dmg reduction i got for not chosing the DMG trait....

>

> that might be considered over performing then as you wont be hitting the same 9 people per second more importantly the time it takes you to locate and spawn all 3 wit the shades only lasting 10 seconds you would likely get full use out of 2 of them and an effective 4 seconds or less of use from the 3rd which means you really get the most effectiveness from only a max of 6 targets. 1 shade hitting 5 targets (wont be the same 5 targets if it a zerg) is more than plenty effective in zergs and wvw .

> you are also looking at it from purely a wvw perspective. in pve where these things dont stack and choke points dont matter. A big shade can cover those areas or in spvp where you wont need to hit 9 people a big shade is likely a better choice.

>

> Fact is you are not truly rewarded for attempting to use all 3 small shades at the same time with the duration only being 10 seconds 1 shade is less management and just as effective while giving you options that dont make you feel like you have to be locked into taking the bigger shade. Those other 2 traits really wont get any love because of it either. This also give them a chance to re make that trait into something that fits the top row of traits for heavy support.

 

Any necro who does not Bring the DMG increase trait into PvE where dmg is everything for endgame stuff is doing it wrong....

 

Especialy when dmg is the only thing we bring + mobs always are clumped up most of the times

[Meetshield.1756]

> 3 small shades 9 people + 33% dmg

> 1 big shade 5 people... with no extra dmg from trait

 

Hey man we all got our opinions. You said you didn't understand mine, so I explained it.

 

As to 33% more dmg, lets be real. Its 33% more torment dmg. Torment dmg according to my DPS meter is about 15% of my dmg? Before the Nerf I got about 60% from manifest Sand Shade, about 15% from Desert Shroud (The power sides of those), and about 50% from burning, on my Cele Scourge. After the Nerf seems Well of Suffering is top Dmg or Necrotic grasp, and I ask myself Why even Play scourge? Reaper is much higher burst, and Still has Shroud! Base Necro has a 1.4 power modifier on Life Blast that pierces at 1200 range, while Still having Shroud!

[Meetshield.1756]

For PVE sure you would take the dmg trait if you weren't required to have barrier up for your group. But, go play WvW, you realize there are like 3 game modes and only 1 of them fights androids that stand in place and don't clear conditions.

[Zoltreez.6435]

> @Meetshield.1756 said:

> > 3 small shades 9 people + 33% dmg

> > 1 big shade 5 people... with no extra dmg from trait

>

> Hey man we all got our opinions. You said you didn't understand mine, so I explained it.

>

> Cele Scourge.

 

aaaand there is your prob.....

 

Torment is on almost all your skills and some of them hit reeeealy hard so if your doing so low amounts of dmg in PvP with torment your doing something wrong.... realy wrong.....

 

also cele.... lol... do a Viper+Trail combo build then watch the difference in Torrment... remember Dmg increasing stuff Multiply each other.... that 33% dmg on Torment is HUGE the difference is waaaaay bigger when you have capped expertise and have Huge amount of Condition dmg..... compared to cele...

[Crinn.7864]

> @Zoltreez.6435 said:

> i NEVER gonna understand why some people take Sand Savant over the 33% dmg increase trait.......

>

> im all for removing the 3 small shades and Make Savant the Baseline shade and give us a New Trait...

 

The only place you should ever use Demonic Lore is PvE. If you use it in PvP or WvW you are doing it wrong.

 

Let me put it another way.

 

My power reaper can hit a 3shade scourge with my _melee_ reaper shroud skills without having to enter your shade radius, because your tiny shades have less radius than my _melee_ reaper shroud skills have range.

[Meetshield.1756]

Yeah Cele Scourge is bad ... for PVE raids... I agree.

 

I already have the spreadsheet DPS on scourge, full TB scourge was like 500 dmg more than full Cele when I still thought Shade strike was a .5 modifier. Once the Wiki was updated and Shade strike givin the proper .66 modifier it has, Cele beats TB by a good 15% more dmg in a WvW setting, where 75% of your condies are resisted and 65% are cleared.

 

[Zoltreez.6435]

> @Meetshield.1756 said:

> Yeah Cele Scourge is bad ... for PVE raids... I agree.

>

> I already have the spreadsheet DPS on scourge, full TB scourge was like 500 dmg more than full Cele when I still thought Shade strike was a .5 modifier. Once the Wiki was updated and Shade strike givin the proper .66 modifier it has, Cele beats TB by a good 15% more dmg in a WvW setting, where 75% of your condies are resisted and 65% are cleared.

>

 

thats why you Mix TB with Viper :P

[Zoltreez.6435]

> @Crinn.7864 said:

> > @Zoltreez.6435 said:

> > i NEVER gonna understand why some people take Sand Savant over the 33% dmg increase trait.......

> >

> > im all for removing the 3 small shades and Make Savant the Baseline shade and give us a New Trait...

>

> The only place you should ever use Demonic Lore is PvE. If you use it in PvP or WvW you are doing it wrong.

>

> Let me put it another way.

>

> My power reaper can hit a 3shade scourge with my _melee_ reaper shroud skills without having to enter your shade radius, because your tiny shades have less radius than my _melee_ reaper shroud skills have range.

 

and i totally not gonna throw a shade in your face or try to move away from you while running around my shades am i right ? i just gonna stand there and take it from your big bad sword......

[intox.6347]

> @Zoltreez.6435 said:

> > @Crinn.7864 said:

> > > @Zoltreez.6435 said:

> > > i NEVER gonna understand why some people take Sand Savant over the 33% dmg increase trait.......

> > >

> > > im all for removing the 3 small shades and Make Savant the Baseline shade and give us a New Trait...

> >

> > The only place you should ever use Demonic Lore is PvE. If you use it in PvP or WvW you are doing it wrong.

> >

> > Let me put it another way.

> >

> > My power reaper can hit a 3shade scourge with my _melee_ reaper shroud skills without having to enter your shade radius, because your tiny shades have less radius than my _melee_ reaper shroud skills have range.

>

> and i totally not gonna throw a shade in your face or try to move away from you while running around my shades am i right ? i just gonna stand there and take it from your big bad sword......

 

With that small radius and big cooldown... u will not reapeat that much :) In wvw i spend lot of time on scourge... and sand savant is winner ... in pve just 3 shades, but its pretty annoying.