Kittymarks - The derpy girl's comprehensive benchmark

[Lunarlife.5128]

The toxicity in this thread is... Incredible.

They're guides that help one get started, what reality is not elitism, etc.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > > @Raguel.9402 said:

> > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > > > > @Raguel.9402 said:

> > > > > > > @LadyKitty.6120 said:

> > > > > > > > @Raguel.9402 said:

> > > > > > > > You do realise, that a new player won't benefit much from a video where all you do is show a rotation, build and gear? Try understanding an engie's rotation without having the written "priority" based list somewhere.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > If you really want to help new players. Make written guides for your builds. Copy pasting a build, whatever the source, won't teach anyone anything. That's why so many ppl suck at pvp, they just go to metabattle, copy paste what's meta and die and then qq the class is trash...

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Like Kitty's already said way too many times, those benchmark videos are NOT guides. They NO guides. Tu comprehendos?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > If Kitty had aimed making those videos as guides by themselves, she'd have included written rotations, helpful tips and stuffs already as text within the video. But sadly, Kitty doesn't have time for that in this phase of her project. Until she starts writing her build guides (which will include how to play also unusual weapon combos and where they work, where they don't etc. etc.), those benchmarking videos will be nothing more than a proof that Kitty's not throwing random paper pieces with numbers in a hat and pulling one from the hat for each build. And they are NOT absolutely highest DPS the build can do nor it aims to be such. Those only show what people at Kitty's level can do with various builds with some practise (and what Kitty can pull off somewhat reliably). And once again, Kitty's practised every metabuild she's recorded for at least 1,5-2 hours each and she's played each of them in T4 fractals and raids. But, being bad at executing long combos properly and swapping kits quick, she still fails to reliably pull them off and what's even worse, she only gives her own builds and rotations like max. 15 mins of thinking/practising time per weapon-combo, even less if the rotations and traits are somewhat similar. Kitty indeed does favor her own builds a lot at that, right?

> > > > > > > Yush, if someone of Kitty's failing combo execution skills honed one rotation for hours, hours and more hours, then that someone might actually start reaching rather high numbers. But if Kitty started doing that, she'd grow so frustrated with the build that she'd not play it again in a long time (which was part of the reason why Kitty avoided playing power DH for months.)

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > And no, no, Kitty's not alone like that.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I do know you are not posting guides, which is my point. You're trying to cater to newer players, without providing easy to understand information - i.e. written rotations.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Experienced players don't have a use for your builds, as they know their class and can theorycraft on their own.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > So who are you aiming your guides at? At some point I dislike qtfy's website as they just posted rotation videos without much of an explanation and I was 100% lost as to they why, when and what.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If you're just posting random builds for it's own sake, then kudoz to you.

> > > > >

> > > > > I can assure you your meta speedrun mentality is actually a minority even amongst experienced players.

> > > >

> > > > If you read any of my posts thoroughly you'd see I'm far from "meta speedrunning mentality" but anyhow. As long as it works, it's not broken right? :)

> > >

> > > exactly, she progresses through raids with her builds which is the only justification ever needed

> >

> > Not really, not when getting carried this obviously.

> >

> > It's fine to get carried through raids and/or not bring top tier performance. Not every person will play with 1,000 apm on a perfect rotation. The difficulty is low enough to allow for errors and mediocre gameplay.

> >

> > What is not fine though, is getting carried and telling others it's okay to play this way. If every person in her raid group were to adapt this mentality, they would not succeed.

>

> Difficulty is subjective. You are not a target for Kitty's thread. She wants to share her way of raiding and is very welcome to do so. Noone in this game is supposed to share your way of playing. And I am pretty sure Kitty doesn't want to play with you as much as you don't want to play with her.

 

and people have no problem with her sharing her "guides".

 

Freedom of speach goes both ways though, and valid criticism as far as quality and usefulness of the guides can be voiced by experienced players.

 

EDIT: Also while difficulty might be subjective, the amount of minimum performance required for raids is not. You need x amount of performance by 10 people, some of which can get split up unequally (say having 2 dps do a fantastic job and cover fomr 2 weaker dps). Bringing a bad performance and having others carry a share of your weight is never an optimal standpoint or goal someone should aim for (at the very least when advising others).

[Raven.1793]

> @LadyKitty.6120 said:

> > @CrustyBot.3564 said:

> > I think people dont care much about off meta. I brought up condi holosmith in my last post, and I have top dps'd several w4 bosses with it including Deimos. So it's not impossible to use off meta builds and still contribute. The problem I see here is that judging by kitty's videos, it's a combination of an off meta build along with _selfish_ play that facetanks and ignores mechanics in order to reach reasonable dps numbers.

> >

> > What exp raiders realise is that more you understand your class and encounters, the more room you have to experiment and run off meta builds without sacrificing overall group performance. While Kitty may be able to play these builds and clear raids, it relies on other people to run meta builds and play team oriented styles in order to compensate. If everyone in the group ran with similar builds and especially a similar mindset, then that group would not be able to complete the content. That's why even though on the surface level, Kitty does fine, that people are claiming she is getting carried.

> >

> > That's why it's kind of bad to push these builds onto prospective raiders as is. At least IMO.

>

> To be accurate: people here seem to judge by Kitty's worst videos as she's not sure if anyone has mentioned or linked any of Kitty's better videos. Kitty does have such. By the way, Kitty would gladly accept some alternative team comps if people ran them and bosses still would get killed, though perhaps a bit slower. Kitty has done such before. And what do we have left of meta-DPSers without that same meta-support? Perhaps even less as while they are more effective in squad, qT does mention in more than couple of their guides that they are reliant on alacrity. Most likely even more so than Kitty's since they're calculated to accurately have as little transitions between skills as possible. More simplified rotations don't suffer from that as much as they have less to re-organize, at least according to Kitty's experience. And actually, at some bosses having some of Kitty's builds instead of meta might be helpful (like needing to range, most of metabuilds not being optimal for that).

>

> It's also quite usual that squads do way more damage than what a boss actually requires to get the kill and have minutes left in timer. Which essentially means that the boss could be killed with less. And no, time is not as much an issue at easier bosses than people think it is. For example, everyone's favourite VG. If mechanics are properly played against, they should pose no issue even for DPS-wise weaker squad.

> Greens are spawning at old area? Either chrono's moving too slow or squad fails horribly at CC-phases. Kitty hasn't had that issue after learning 20/15 sec sector timer. Metronome also helps. (write "metronome" in google and it will give you one)

> Greens spawning at correct area but still get blown up? Greeners aren't doing their job properly.

> Greeners got ported? Easily avoidable by off-chrono distorting or guard sharing aegis.

> You don't have someone to do that? Well, it would have been safer choice to bring someone to do that. Like power or condi scepter+torch guard/DH/FB.

> Breakbar attack kills people? Either use your CCs better, people bring more CC or get a CC-specialist at some expense to DPS.

> Seekers kill peoples? Don't stand in the seekers and if you think they'd come into green circles, you better bring some knockbacks.

> People get ported to dangerous areas? Evade/sidestep better. Those are even way easier to see than Cairn's.

> People were at wrong areas during split? Pay more attention to boss HP %. If you can't see it, change it on in the settings.

>

> Any of those were related to lack of DPS? Kitty doesn't think so.

>

> On a random thought, Kitty noticed that people are very used to "stack in melee-range". Yush, works at some bosses, but at some it might actually be safer to have 2nd sub fighting from range at the cost of some DPS but avoiding lots of nasty melee-range mechanics. It's doesn't even affect buffing much. And no, Kitty's not speaking of just Deimos here.

>

> And since Kitty's known for posting bad videos, guess she could post a video of where she was doing rather well (at least in her own opinion). In the video below, Kitty's doing very well statistics-wise, though her DPS could've still been 1,5k better if she didn't do a couple bad mistakes. In last 33%, Kitty pulled 16405 cleave/13647 boss DPS (though cleave-DPS is quite irrelevant here). And note: Kitty was playing a PS-role, not DPS.

>

>

>

>

 

Love your page and guide Kitty as well as this video. Condi mes was the build I ran on my first VG kill before damage meters were a thing. The only difference was that I ran Blink instead of Mantra of Distraction. I still consider it one of the best builds for green circle duty on VG because you can maintain really good dps at range with minimal buffs.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > > > @Raguel.9402 said:

> > > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > > > > > @Raguel.9402 said:

> > > > > > > > @LadyKitty.6120 said:

> > > > > > > > > @Raguel.9402 said:

> > > > > > > > > You do realise, that a new player won't benefit much from a video where all you do is show a rotation, build and gear? Try understanding an engie's rotation without having the written "priority" based list somewhere.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > If you really want to help new players. Make written guides for your builds. Copy pasting a build, whatever the source, won't teach anyone anything. That's why so many ppl suck at pvp, they just go to metabattle, copy paste what's meta and die and then qq the class is trash...

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Like Kitty's already said way too many times, those benchmark videos are NOT guides. They NO guides. Tu comprehendos?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > If Kitty had aimed making those videos as guides by themselves, she'd have included written rotations, helpful tips and stuffs already as text within the video. But sadly, Kitty doesn't have time for that in this phase of her project. Until she starts writing her build guides (which will include how to play also unusual weapon combos and where they work, where they don't etc. etc.), those benchmarking videos will be nothing more than a proof that Kitty's not throwing random paper pieces with numbers in a hat and pulling one from the hat for each build. And they are NOT absolutely highest DPS the build can do nor it aims to be such. Those only show what people at Kitty's level can do with various builds with some practise (and what Kitty can pull off somewhat reliably). And once again, Kitty's practised every metabuild she's recorded for at least 1,5-2 hours each and she's played each of them in T4 fractals and raids. But, being bad at executing long combos properly and swapping kits quick, she still fails to reliably pull them off and what's even worse, she only gives her own builds and rotations like max. 15 mins of thinking/practising time per weapon-combo, even less if the rotations and traits are somewhat similar. Kitty indeed does favor her own builds a lot at that, right?

> > > > > > > > Yush, if someone of Kitty's failing combo execution skills honed one rotation for hours, hours and more hours, then that someone might actually start reaching rather high numbers. But if Kitty started doing that, she'd grow so frustrated with the build that she'd not play it again in a long time (which was part of the reason why Kitty avoided playing power DH for months.)

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > And no, no, Kitty's not alone like that.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I do know you are not posting guides, which is my point. You're trying to cater to newer players, without providing easy to understand information - i.e. written rotations.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Experienced players don't have a use for your builds, as they know their class and can theorycraft on their own.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > So who are you aiming your guides at? At some point I dislike qtfy's website as they just posted rotation videos without much of an explanation and I was 100% lost as to they why, when and what.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > If you're just posting random builds for it's own sake, then kudoz to you.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I can assure you your meta speedrun mentality is actually a minority even amongst experienced players.

> > > > >

> > > > > If you read any of my posts thoroughly you'd see I'm far from "meta speedrunning mentality" but anyhow. As long as it works, it's not broken right? :)

> > > >

> > > > exactly, she progresses through raids with her builds which is the only justification ever needed

> > >

> > > Not really, not when getting carried this obviously.

> > >

> > > It's fine to get carried through raids and/or not bring top tier performance. Not every person will play with 1,000 apm on a perfect rotation. The difficulty is low enough to allow for errors and mediocre gameplay.

> > >

> > > What is not fine though, is getting carried and telling others it's okay to play this way. If every person in her raid group were to adapt this mentality, they would not succeed.

> >

> > Difficulty is subjective. You are not a target for Kitty's thread. She wants to share her way of raiding and is very welcome to do so. Noone in this game is supposed to share your way of playing. And I am pretty sure Kitty doesn't want to play with you as much as you don't want to play with her.

>

> and people have no problem with her sharing her "guides".

>

> Freedom of speach goes both ways though, and valid criticism as far as quality and usefulness of the guides can be voiced by experienced players.

 

 

Oh feel free to share your opinions. You should however not shove it onto other people like this community likes to do every day in group content :-)))))))))

 

 

[LadyKitty.6120]

Ooooops....Kitty linked wrong vid >.<' Here's ze more decent one... (it's not a good idea to go linking stuff after 20 hours awake, like Kitty did...)

[zeronatras.3280]

> @"Chris McSwag.4683" said:

> I still wonder why kitty talks about herself in third person

 

This now become the biggest secret of the universe m8

[Crinn.7864]

> @Lunarlife.5128 said:

> The toxicity in this thread is... Incredible.

> They're guides that help one get started, what reality is not elitism, etc.

 

They are guides that help one get started in the wrong direction.

 

If a given player has decided that they are going to dedicate themselves enough that they are actually bothering to look up guides, then they would be better served by looking at qtfy builds.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @Crinn.7864 said:

> > @Lunarlife.5128 said:

> > The toxicity in this thread is... Incredible.

> > They're guides that help one get started, what reality is not elitism, etc.

>

> They are guides that help one get started in the wrong direction.

>

> If a given player has decided that they are going to dedicate themselves enough that they are actually bothering to look up guides, then they would be better served by looking at qtfy builds.

 

qt builds are currently overtuned (because of bad game balance) which allows players to skip mechanics which leads to lesser understanding of bosses amongst players, which means they by definition are opposite to learning raids

[LadyKitty.6120]

> @Crinn.7864 said:

> > @Lunarlife.5128 said:

> > The toxicity in this thread is... Incredible.

> > They're guides that help one get started, what reality is not elitism, etc.

>

> They are guides that help one get started in the wrong direction.

>

> If a given player has decided that they are going to dedicate themselves enough that they are actually bothering to look up guides, then they would be better served by looking at qtfy builds.

 

Dem qT necro guides...and poor mesmers who accidentally crafted berserker's DPS gears ._.

 


 

[TexZero.7910]

> @LadyKitty.6120 said:

> Dem qT necro guides...and poor mesmers who accidentally crafted berserker's DPS gears ._.

>

> 

 

You didn't read the notice on their benchmark page did you ?

 

Also i see a power chrono build listed.....

 

Not sure if throwing shade or just absent where it matters either way, poor taste to peer-review but not accept similar critiques of your own page.

[Lunaire.9741]

> @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > @Crinn.7864 said:

> > > @Lunarlife.5128 said:

> > > The toxicity in this thread is... Incredible.

> > > They're guides that help one get started, what reality is not elitism, etc.

> >

> > They are guides that help one get started in the wrong direction.

> >

> > If a given player has decided that they are going to dedicate themselves enough that they are actually bothering to look up guides, then they would be better served by looking at qtfy builds.

>

> qt builds are currently overtuned (because of bad game balance) which allows players to skip mechanics which leads to lesser understanding of bosses amongst players, which means they by definition are opposite to learning raids

 

lol ignore mechanics? you mean like kitty does in a lot of her videos because in her words "we have healers" and to lazy to move to green circle so ill face tank it yea thats so much better.

 

One "skips" mechanics using skills in the game to nullify damage or through improved dps to the detriment of no one the other encourages laziness and more works for the support to keep them alive and they just out right ignore mechanics. Not being rude she said herself she face tanks because she'll get healed. Imaging if her druids were as lazy as she is and face tanks mechanics

 

If you have a gripe about QT skipping mechanics then why you are ok with kitty skipping mechanics?

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @Lunaire.9741 said:

> > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > @Crinn.7864 said:

> > > > @Lunarlife.5128 said:

> > > > The toxicity in this thread is... Incredible.

> > > > They're guides that help one get started, what reality is not elitism, etc.

> > >

> > > They are guides that help one get started in the wrong direction.

> > >

> > > If a given player has decided that they are going to dedicate themselves enough that they are actually bothering to look up guides, then they would be better served by looking at qtfy builds.

> >

> > qt builds are currently overtuned (because of bad game balance) which allows players to skip mechanics which leads to lesser understanding of bosses amongst players, which means they by definition are opposite to learning raids

>

> lol ignore mechanics? you mean like kitty does in a lot of her videos because in her words "we have healers" and to lazy to move to green circle so ill face tank it yea thats so much better.

>

> One "skips" mechanics using skills in the game to nullify damage or through improved dps to the detriment of no one the other encourages laziness and more works for the support to keep them alive and they just out right ignore mechanics. Not being rude she said herself she face tanks because she'll get healed. Imaging if her druids were as lazy as she is and face tanks mechanics

>

> If you have a gripe about QT skipping mechanics then why you are ok with kitty skipping mechanics?

 

It's not against qt. Their benchmarks are caused by overblown balance. There should never be an option to skip boss mechanics. This is how people complained about dungeons.

[LadyKitty.6120]

> @TexZero.7910 said:

> You didn't read the notice on their benchmark page did you ?

>

> Also i see a power chrono build listed.....

>

> Not sure if throwing shade or just absent where it matters either way, poor taste to peer-review but not accept similar critiques of your own page.

 

Kitty did read the notice. And she also doesn't think that condiscourge is in sub-30k region atm and lots of people actually play it even now quite successfully (though Kitty's noticed more than a few peoples saying "condiscourge is **** now" 'cause qT doesn't deem it viable atm (though even with "easy ~7-8k" drop it's still in similar range as power thief-builds DPS wise and brings lots more utility). In other words, they're exaggerating the drop for whatever reason.

 

And note: it says chrono. And in quanTifynese, it means off-support chrono, not any of the pure DPS-builds which are played quite differently and deal quite decent damage.

 

> @Lunaire.9741 said:

> One "skips" mechanics using skills in the game to nullify damage or through improved dps to the detriment of no one the other encourages laziness and more works for the support to keep them alive and they just out right ignore mechanics. Not being rude she said herself she face tanks because she'll get healed. Imaging if her druids were as lazy as she is and face tanks mechanics

>

> If you have a gripe about QT skipping mechanics then why you are ok with kitty skipping mechanics?

 

By the way, apparently lots of people ate Kitty's bate. The real reason why Kitty stood at boss instead of going to circles at times in that mesmer video was because going to circles could have meant 5+ seconds of DPS-downtime while staying at the boss only meant 2.

Kitty noticed that the damage from the big AoE only ate about 55% of her max HP when she first failed to find a safe green to move to (btw, the AoE wasn't the danger for Kitty there, but someone with agony ring coming from BEHIND her after that AoE, giving Kitty a nice agony hit and downing her 'cause it's so effin difficult for some people to keep some distance).

And thus, she calculated that as long as she avoids most of the other damage, she can survive that AoE 'til healers come back to boss from greens. In long run, that might have given Kitty 1,5k more DPS. It worked for a long time, until Kitty got accidentally ported at 19% left. That wasn't lethal yet, Kitty didn't even get agony ring. What messed Kitty was the green after that. Kitty doesn't exactly know why she got knocked away from the green, but that knock-off gave her agony ring and THAT messed Kitty bad time. At 3% left, she still had 10,5k HP left before AoE and thus she'd have survived that AoE+1 agony tick and after that Kitty intended to distort for last 2%. But, Kitty miscalculated and got downed, though that wasn't even dangerous anymore at that point as boss would've anyway died before Kitty.

 

But it's not like Kitty would recommend doing that for anyone unless they can evade other damage well enough and also survive it by calculating the incoming damages quite accurately. And it does place a great trust on healers to be able to heal the melee-DDs properly. This time the trust was worth it. The keyword: Kitty could afford it.

 

To tell something about Kitty's mindset: A fool takes risks that can't be afforded. Timid avoids taking risks even if they could be afforded. A smart player takes the risks when they can be afforded to press further. As someone who's spent too much time chronoing and having played tank roles a lot in various games, Kitty does have some kind of hunch about what hits she can take and which she can't if she knows the boss. Like Sun Tzu said: "Know your enemy and know yourself, find naught in fear for 100 battles."

 

And here's that mesmer video again. Watch it while taking Kitty's above text into account and you'll most likely understand why Kitty played like she did.

 

[CrustyBot.3564]

> @LadyKitty.6120 said:

 

> It's also quite usual that squads do way more damage than what a boss actually requires to get the kill and have minutes left in timer. Which essentially means that the boss could be killed with less. And no, time is not as much an issue at easier bosses than people think it is. For example, everyone's favourite VG. If mechanics are properly played against, they should pose no issue even for DPS-wise weaker squad.

> Greens are spawning at old area? Either chrono's moving too slow or squad fails horribly at CC-phases. Kitty hasn't had that issue after learning 20/15 sec sector timer. Metronome also helps. (write "metronome" in google and it will give you one)

> Greens spawning at correct area but still get blown up? Greeners aren't doing their job properly.

> Greeners got ported? Easily avoidable by off-chrono distorting or guard sharing aegis.

> You don't have someone to do that? Well, it would have been safer choice to bring someone to do that. Like power or condi scepter+torch guard/DH/FB.

> Breakbar attack kills people? Either use your CCs better, people bring more CC or get a CC-specialist at some expense to DPS.

> Seekers kill peoples? Don't stand in the seekers and if you think they'd come into green circles, you better bring some knockbacks.

> People get ported to dangerous areas? Evade/sidestep better. Those are even way easier to see than Cairn's.

> People were at wrong areas during split? Pay more attention to boss HP %. If you can't see it, change it on in the settings.

>

> Any of those were related to lack of DPS? Kitty doesn't think so.

 

But this is my point. It's fine for one or two people to do what you do if everyone else can pick up the slack. But if everyone took this approach and used Scourge Healers (no Tides for seeker control, less cc), Condi Herald Mightbots (no room to green circle without losing most dps, less cc) or (hypothetically) DH tanks (no distortions), your group's ability to navigate these mechanics are greatly reduced and unless played by expert level players, would result in endless wipes and no progress for newer players.

 

That's what I'm getting at, and why most of these builds shouldn't be pushed onto newer players as reasonable alternatives without considering the pros and cons vs meta builds. But even then, most of your builds are quasi meta anyway as far as dps goes. Like you're posting Power DH, Condi Mes or Condi DD as examples of meta alternative builds when really 99% of groups would accept those builds without a second thought.

 

> On a random thought, Kitty noticed that people are very used to "stack in melee-range". Yush, works at some bosses, but at some it might actually be safer to have 2nd sub fighting from range at the cost of some DPS but avoiding lots of nasty melee-range mechanics. It's doesn't even affect buffing much. And no, Kitty's not speaking of just Deimos here.

>

> And since Kitty's known for posting bad videos, guess she could post a video of where she was doing rather well (at least in her own opinion). In the video below, Kitty's doing very well statistics-wise, though her DPS could've still been 1,5k better if she didn't do a couple bad mistakes. In last 33%, Kitty pulled 16405 cleave/13647 boss DPS (though cleave-DPS is quite irrelevant here). And note: Kitty was playing a PS-role, not DPS.

>

>

>

>

 

You were a Condi Mesmer DPS on green circles, which was smart all things considered and a good example of bringing off meta builds in niche scenarios where they can contribute well (as opposed to playing off meta builds because you feel like it and who cares if the rest of the group has to carry you). Another common example is that Scourge isn't meta but bringing one to MO is still a good idea to make jade control super easy. On the other hand, would Condi Herald (an alternative to CPS) still work as a green circle runner without massively disadvantaging the team?

 

The other thing I have to say is that you're wrong about stacking in melee range. The overwhelming majority of Chronomancer support (distortion, wells, etc) and Druid healing is done in a small aoe radius around the caster. Going full melee doesn't always lead to the best outcomes and I am not a massive fan of the stack orgy that raids have but encouraging players to just hang back is a bad habit to teach since a lot of bosses pulse damage. There are a number of bosses where that behaviour will screw them over, or the team as a whole. Baiting Sabetha's flamewall for example.

[CrustyBot.3564]

> @Crinn.7864 said:

> > @Lunarlife.5128 said:

> > The toxicity in this thread is... Incredible.

> > They're guides that help one get started, what reality is not elitism, etc.

>

> They are guides that help one get started in the wrong direction.

>

> If a given player has decided that they are going to dedicate themselves enough that they are actually bothering to look up guides, then they would be better served by looking at qtfy builds.

 

It's not even that qT builds are necessary to beat raid content or anything. Just that encouraging people to facetank mechanics or occupying roles with an off meta build that proudly ditches responsibility that the role usually has (Condi Herald can't do green circles, Scourge Healer cannot help with Rigom phase), is not healthy for newcomers.

[LadyKitty.6120]

> @CrustyBot.3564 said:

> You were a Condi Mesmer DPS on green circles, which was smart all things considered and a good example of bringing off meta builds in niche scenarios where they can contribute well (as opposed to playing off meta builds because you feel like it and who cares if the rest of the group has to carry you). Another common example is that Scourge isn't meta but bringing one to MO is still a good idea to make jade control super easy. On the other hand, would Condi Herald (an alternative to CPS) still work as a green circle runner without massively disadvantaging the team?

>

> The other thing I have to say is that you're wrong about stacking in melee range. The overwhelming majority of Chronomancer support (distortion, wells, etc) and Druid healing is done in a small aoe radius around the caster. Going full melee doesn't always lead to the best outcomes and I am not a massive fan of the stack orgy that raids have but encouraging players to just hang back is a bad habit to teach since a lot of bosses pulse damage. There are a number of bosses where that behaviour will screw them over, or the team as a whole. Baiting Sabetha's flamewall for example.

 

Kitty's not saying that it should be done at every boss but when it can be benefitting. Once again, druid can go to range-heal by using staff/staff (Kitty herself does that). Chrono can also follow and use for ex. scepter or greatsword as alternative weapon for range or just focus on support as it's not like support chrono's DPS would be much.

Of course, like we know, this only works if the DPSers in that sub-squad use fully ranged weapons, like sc/t guard, scourge, power/condi mesmer, axe+torch/SB condi-SB (some DPS-drop from unable to use traps and Bonfire from range)... and only at certain bosses, mainly Deimos and VG when talking about raid bosses, way more when talking about fractal bosses.

 

And no, condiherald wouldn't work as green circle runner. And this is where knowing where a build works and where it doesn't comes into play. For that reason, Kitty says right away that she needs to stay at melee if she does to VG with that build.

 

> @CrustyBot.3564 said:

> It's not even that qT builds are necessary to beat raid content or anything. Just that encouraging people to facetank mechanics or occupying roles with an off meta build that proudly ditches responsibility that the role usually has (Condi Herald can't do green circles, Scourge Healer cannot help with Rigom phase), is not healthy for newcomers.

 

As far as Kitty's seen, 1 cPS does to green, the other stays at melee to stack might on non-greeners. At least that's how it's been organized in most of the teams Kitty's been in. And since Kitty only offers alternatives for 2nd PS ('cause she does recommend having at least one PS warr in squad for banners), squad still has a cPS to go for green while her alternatives take the melee PS's spot.

 

By the way, it was just yesterday when Kitty finished farming her viper's aristocracy HA-set. So condi mightbot renegade ish soon on the Kitty's menu.

[TexZero.7910]

> @LadyKitty.6120 said:

> Kitty did read the notice. And she also doesn't think that condiscourge is in sub-30k region atm and lots of people actually play it even now quite successfully (though Kitty's noticed more than a few peoples saying "condiscourge is **** now" 'cause qT doesn't deem it viable atm (though even with "easy ~7-8k" drop it's still in similar range as power thief-builds DPS wise and brings lots more utility). In other words, they're exaggerating the drop for whatever reason.

>

> And note: it says chrono. And in quanTifynese, it means off-support chrono, not any of the pure DPS-builds which are played quite differently and deal quite decent damage.

 

So you read the notice and are throwing shade why ? If you think they're lacking and you want to prove or provide something that's absent why not test it yourself after all that is the purpose of your site. Additionally, I'm not an expert on condi scourge but the last benchmark i saw had it sitting at ~24k DPS. That is significantly below your 30k region.

 

Also why are you making light of the guild name ? Either call them Quantify or QT the childlike name calling makes all your efforts looks like bad. You also seemingly left out that the power chrono (the specialization of MESMER) uses berserker gear so it fits your "Berserker" gear quota.

 

So please either be more professional or just re-lable yourself and blog to what it is, cause its not about anti-meta it's about self-servicing.

 

 

[LadyKitty.6120]

> @TexZero.7910 said:

> So you read the notice and are throwing shade why ? If you think they're lacking and you want to prove or provide something that's absent why not test it yourself after all that is the purpose of your site. Additionally, I'm not an expert on condi scourge but the last benchmark i saw had it sitting at ~24k DPS. That is significantly below your 30k region.

>

> Also why are you making light of the guild name ? Either call them Quantify or QT the childlike name calling makes all your efforts looks like bad. You also seemingly left out that the power chrono (the specialization of MESMER) uses berserker gear so it fits your "Berserker" gear quota.

>

> So please either be more professional or just re-lable yourself and blog to what it is, cause its not about anti-meta it's about self-servicing.

>

 

Kitty doesn't make light of the guild name, she just said "qTnese" because though "power something" usually refers to a build focused on DPS, in qT-terminology it refers to "support chrono wearing either berserker's or commander's gears". It's main damage form is power damage, but it doesn't count as DPS-build that should apply for DPS-spot. Actual power mesmer is purely a DPS-build that applies for DPS-spot and they don't have that on their "builds"-list at the moment.

 

Considering that Kitty's far from the best condiscourge herself, 24k does sound quite low. Since even Kitty pulled 25225 on it within like 4 tries and her gears aren't even optimal for condiscourge. And this video is post-fix, before the fix Kitty pulled 30538.

 

https://youtu.be/aG2xSRng1d4

[TexZero.7910]

So you're really gonna fret about 1.2k here ?

 

I said ~24k and your proof that it's higher is less than 1% difference. OK.

 

[CrustyBot.3564]

I've had friends test out Condi Scourge and hit 27-28k, it's not nearly as low as 24k. In the hands of qT tier players I'd say it's easily 30k. I'd still argue it has a place if you can Epi bounce or if add control is important. I like the idea of it on Xera and Sabetha. You make some of the damage back on Sab because she's "always moving" and your Torment hits for max damage, then with Xera it's easy add and shard control.

 

As for Power Mesmer, that's not on qT's site anymore (it used to be) but most people would be happy to let one into their group. However, when you played it, you made key mistakes in how it operates (namely you resummoned your phantasms, so you never took advantage of the immensely powerful Phantasmal Force trait). So it's not something that people could call a resource or example of gameplay for newbies to look at.

[Ranael.6423]

Guys, this is unfair to Kitty. Sure she is not a perfect player and her marks are certainly far from being the top dps she could get on non-top dps builds. At least there is a good thing in her marks: they are all done by the same player, who should have a constant play level.

She did something really good though : giving some comparison between some builds. I mean theorycrafters here and on reddit put all suggestions aside by answering the same " but this is a HUGE dps loss" without giving numbers on the huge factor (I guess a lot have a HUGE anatomy in that case...). Here we see numbers, the approach is to me more interesting. It is then to me to decide whether I'd lost this XX k DPS over bringing CC, support or whatever that the group is missing at the moment. I like reading good theorycrafting though... but good didactic theorycrafters are so rare in this community (to me Xyonon is one of the best in the way he explains things and DEKeyz is also quite good).

 

I know that qt benchmarks are important, at least to have a good expectations on the PUG entering the squad... but everybody cries over the lack of diversity so now the question is : do one accept diversity against 5-10% dps? Given the low requirements on dps bosses, it should be fine. And honestly I prefer seeing a player lower on dps but focused on the mechanics or special tasks (you all know those super high burst daredevil who do not pay attention to this green light over their head).

 

The meta discussion of raid today is in the same state than the dungeon one back in old days. Half people do not understand the game but repeat without any possible discussion what THE big guild say, back then DnT, today qT... most probably tomorrow SC. But instead of having qT drive the entire game for the community and miserably falls apart the way DnT did, I'd prefer to keep them healthy around and have other voices ( having their own audience) to be heard on those discussions without them being despised for just existing.

Feel all free to not allow power Mesmer in your group or not join a group with people having some "off-meta" builds but do not deny people wanting to have another view on the game to try. Do your own LFG with your requirements if you want but I really do think that letting people play a bit more with their build within a certain frame (like dps charts) is the best way to make them understand their skills, traits and how the game works in general....I mean only last week one exp chrono told me he did not want to switch to FB runes because "20% quickness duration is cool but he would loose Alacrity duration without all this concentration". He is a really good player though... but never tried to understand how the game works in depth.

[LadyKitty.6120]

> @TexZero.7910 said:

> So you're really gonna fret about 1.2k here ?

>

> I said ~24k and your proof that it's higher is less than 1% difference. OK.

>

 

Well, Kitty originally said that she doesn't think that condiscourge would be in sub-30k group when speaking about qT-benchmarks. You said it was sitting at 24k with some last benchmark you saw, comparing to Kitty's 30k+ qT-estimation. When Kitty replied with her benchmark to show why that 24k sounded weird, you suddenly started comparing that 24k to Kitty's 25,2k. Like, where's the logic?

 

Why Kitty thinks that qT-players could easily pull 30k+ on it?

1. They are way more skilled at condiscourge.

2. They have optimized gears for that build, unlike Kitty.

3. They're nice towards condibuilds and use Pinpoint Distribution for condibenchmarks while Kitty doesn't ('cause engi doesn't happen to be the static 4th member in usual squad setting these days).

 

And while Kitty's at it, she uses the standard meta-comp assumption for benchmarks for now since 90% of squads seem to follow that comp. If alternatives for PS warrior became like 50% alternative, she'd drop EA (retaining banners 'cause as long as banners exist as they are, there's one reserved spot for PS-warrior). If other healers rose to the prominence of being at least 50% of healers, Kitty would drop GotL, spirits and spotter. Since there's firebrands and chronos spreading quickness now, quickness would stay regardless.

[Cuon Alpinus.7645]

> @Ranael.6423 said:

> Guys, this is unfair to Kitty. Sure she is not a perfect player and her marks are certainly far from being the top dps she could get on non-top dps builds. At least there is a good thing in her marks: they are all done by the same player, who should have a constant play level.

>

It's hardly unfair. She's claiming to be an expert or at the very least a reputable source of information despite clearly showing herself to be unqualified. She's being compared to proper information sources because she's claiming to be one herself, thus exposing her to the higher quality standards expected of such people. Also, a person isn't going to have a consistent play level across every class in the game. You could have the best player in the world and they would still have things they're better at than others.

[Refia Montes.3205]

One thing that I don't really get is, how are the guides even comprehensive.

[TexZero.7910]

> @Ranael.6423 said:

> Guys, this is unfair to Kitty.

 

Everything i've said has been perfectly fair. If one is to be better they need to accept critique and not be childish in the way the present themselves. Taking petty shots when QT has already explained things and then being so pedantic as to not think Chrono is a Memser is just poor showing from someone who wants to be taken seriously.

 

Either you dislike the current state and want to showcase more options in which case show other options don't bash others, or you're no better than the average reddit users you complain about saying but DPS Loss.