Kittymarks - The derpy girl's comprehensive benchmark

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @Verenhimo.3296 said:

> > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > Kitty's thread is not misleading. She provides numbers. And numbers don't lie. What you make of it is only your choice. The same applies to qt benchmarks. A lot of players use their builds without single thought or understanding them and as the result you meat 10k weavers believing they are outdpsing power reapers.

>

> I had a long reply written out for this, frankly put, these builds are misleading, they lack even the most basic context that other benchmarks have tried to given, there are so so so many reasons why half of these benchmarks are wrong, and will fall flat on there faces the moment they touch a raid environment, at least with someone whom has put effort into there website like QT I can point someone towards condi firebrand and be like "Ok, here are your gear choices, here's what bosses you're effective on, you'll notice that you have some bosses you're not, that's why you want to have gear for power dragonhunter for bosses like KC."

>

> Trying to herald this post as "wow look at how many V I A B L E builds there are that the meta *scoffs* ignores!" is stupid, i could honestly fart out a 25k+ parse with pistol pistol deadeye and post it, does that make pistol thief remotely worth bringing to raids? hell no, for a magnitude of reasons.

>

> Let's not forget you are joining a group where 6 other people are resigning themselves to VERY boring builds like chrono, druid & condiPS, you are expected to come, take one of these vital dps spots, and bring the most synergistic, optimal build you can for each boss, it doesn't have to be diehard meta, but you're expected to pull a certain level of weight.

>

>

>

>

 

These builds are enough to kill bosses. When people realize you don't need to look for bad weavers, pugging will be much better experience.

[LadyKitty.6120]

> @Verenhimo.3296 said:

> I had a long reply written out for this, frankly put, these builds are misleading, they lack even the most basic context that other benchmarks have tried to given, there are so so so many reasons why half of these benchmarks are wrong, and will fall flat on there faces the moment they touch a raid environment, at least with someone whom has put effort into there website like QT I can point someone towards condi firebrand and be like "Ok, here are your gear choices, here's what bosses you're effective on, you'll notice that you have some bosses you're not, that's why you want to have gear for power dragonhunter for bosses like KC."

 

Informations on that coming soon, once Kitty's done with benchmarking process. Kitty's just a lot slower at outputting dem informations 'cause she's doing this all alone with way lesser resources than qT. (note: the site has been online for 1,5 months now and Kitty also had to do tons of gear farming between early September and starting the benchmarks 2 weeks ago, still lacking a few weapons that Kitty needs to farm.)

 

> Trying to herald this post as "wow look at how many V I A B L E builds there are that the meta *scoffs* ignores!" is stupid, i could honestly fart out a 25k+ parse with pistol pistol deadeye and post it, does that make pistol thief remotely worth bringing to raids? hell no, for a magnitude of reasons.

>

> Let's not forget you are joining a group where 6 other people are resigning themselves to VERY boring builds like chrono, druid & condiPS, you are expected to come, take one of these vital dps spots, and bring the most synergistic, optimal build you can for each boss, it doesn't have to be diehard meta, but you're expected to pull a certain level of weight.

 

Most of the bosses don't require a single meta support build. Meta supports do make reaching optimal DPS easier, but it's not like other classes can't grant might, quickness and fury, for example. As long as squad's average DPS through the mechanisms is enough to get the kill before enrage timer, it doesn't matter what the squad's composition is like. Of course, the builds with lower DPS potential do require more skilled play to pull off enough DPS, but that's just the matter of skill, not the fault of the build. If someone can't pull enough DPS on their build, the blame is more on person who chose to play a build but not playing it well enough to justify using it. (unless the build is messed up with bad runes, stats and stuff but that's again the person's bad choices).

 

[Verenhimo.3296]

> @Kheldorn.5123 said:

 

> These builds are enough to kill bosses. When people realize you don't need to look for bad weavers, pugging will be much better experience.

 

Again with the weaver nonsense, you realise how incredibly easy condi weaver is to play right? you have a very VERY small handful of skills to use, some coming with hefty cooldowns so even less twitch based players can plan there next move with little impunity, you'd have to literally just hammer drake breath only to get something as low as 10k.

 

Again you are there on 9 other peoples times, show some respect and try to to optimise, it's not about "oh look they have low dps checks, oh look you can do it on PP Deadeye" it's about respect for the 9 other people who have potentially invested time into making something work whilst you show little regard for that and just play snowflake builds for the sake of it, and it's not like you can't return to your build after, picking an optimised one is not a set in stone decision.

[Joxer.6024]

"Most of the bosses don't require a single meta support build. Meta supports do make reaching optimal DPS easier, but it's not like other classes can't grant might, quickness and fury, for example. As long as squad's average DPS through the mechanisms is enough to get the kill before enrage timer, it doesn't matter what the squad's composition is like. Of course, the builds with lower DPS potential do require more skilled play to pull off enough DPS, but that's just the matter of skill, not the fault of the build. If someone can't pull enough DPS on their build, the blame is more on person who chose to play a build but not playing it well enough to justify using it. (unless the build is messed up with bad runes, stats and stuff but that's again the person's bad choices"

 

That right there is the best thing you or anyone has said! That's it in a nutshell and once more figure it out the happier folks might be. We will always have our meta clones but for the most what is said above holds true. ;)

[LadyKitty.6120]

> @Joxer.6024 said:

> To "Kitty", same as above post my point about your Condi renegade rotation, you say to use Soulcleave which is a huge dps lose and yet in your video you are using razorclaw, as you should. That could be very confusing to someone trying out your ideas and such, that's all.

 

Kitty wrote the 6 guides she's written this far before the expansion landed so people would have some idea about what the incoming builds would be like. And she knows she'll need to fix them when she's done with her tests. Guess Kitty better add a "waiting for a fix" or something on them meanwhile =.=

[Joxer.6024]

> @LadyKitty.6120 said:

> > @Joxer.6024 said:

> > To "Kitty", same as above post my point about your Condi renegade rotation, you say to use Soulcleave which is a huge dps lose and yet in your video you are using razorclaw, as you should. That could be very confusing to someone trying out your ideas and such, that's all.

>

> Kitty wrote the 6 guides she's written this far before the expansion landed so people would have some idea about what the incoming builds would be like. And she knows she'll need to fix them when she's done with her tests. Guess Kitty better add a "waiting for a fix" or something on them meanwhile =.=

 

All good............ ;)

[Verenhimo.3296]

> @LadyKitty.6120 said:

> Most of the bosses don't require a single meta support build. Meta supports do make reaching optimal DPS easier, but it's not like other classes can't grant might, quickness and fury, for example. As long as squad's average DPS through the mechanisms is enough to get the kill before enrage timer

>

 

Stopping you here, surely you see the huge loophole in your way of thinking, you take longer to do the boss, the boss does more mechanics, the chance to wipe becomes increasingly more high, people -STRUGGLE- with min/maxed meta builds as it is, it's not often to have 100li pugs following it wipe alot, could you imagine how terrible everything would be if we deferred back to not giving half a toss and just hoping we brute through an encounter on the lowest denominator check?

 

Please go do a clear with any level of LI pug and refuse to take the 6 meta supports, record it and get back to me how that works for you.

[Static.9841]

At this point, I'm struggling to consider this as anything other than plain trolling. All this is doing is telling newbie raiders and bad players that they can bring whatever the heck they like and not worry about compositions, decent rotations or to strive for anything above mediocrity and will just further people getting upset about being kicked from raids and blaming it on elitism rather than how atrocious they are and how bad their build is.

 

I have no idea what pugs you claim to be parsing higher DPS than, but I absolutely do not believe it unless you are personally advertising for newbies or people who have no clue and can bring whatever they like. This is going to do more harm than it's ever going to do any good and if you think anyone who takes raids seriously and/or wants to do them competently will look at this and think any of it flies, you're living in a dreamworld, but then I guess you can keep making excuses and blaming those 'elitist' players for not being part of raids.

 

> @LadyKitty.6120 said:

> Most of the bosses don't require a single meta support build. Meta supports do make reaching optimal DPS easier, but it's not like other classes can't grant might, quickness and fury, for example. As long as squad's average DPS through the mechanisms is enough to get the kill before enrage timer, it doesn't matter what the squad's composition is like.

 

It's incredible how you don't even see what a recipe for disaster this is going to be in reality. I'd honestly love to see you attempt this with the mediocre DPS and random builds you're encouraging and now without any dedicated meta support builds and see how well you do - or rather how badly. I feel like you think it's OK to bash out a single boss for hours as long as you beat it in the end. You're nothing but harmful for raids, you do realise that actual bosses have mechanics and don't just sit there like DPS golems right?

[Digit.1823]

> @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> They won't be well received because community is biased towards playing certain builds even though I dare to say 70% of pugs is incapable of executing meta builds. Kitty's builds do enough damage to allow raid to be cleared. No boss in raids requires top benchmark. 20k is absolutely enough.

 

I would like to know why pugs are incapable of executing meta builds from qt/snow crows though according to you. Is it because they have to follow a "30 step rotation"? (Hint: they don't all have 30 steps, i'm looking at you condi ele/condi ps/condi daredevil/condi renegade and others) Because the way i see it Kitty has a rotation too in her videos...even often mimicking the qt rotations but with even more (and often extremely useless and unneeded) actions added in between the steps. I mean she literally needs to follow a rotation to even get to a few of the numbers she places in her benchmarks.

 

Take her power berserker rotation for instance as a small example. In those rotations she does not take Blood Reckoning to recharge that F1 burst, but instead opts for taking wild blow AND THEN USING THAT to regain adrenaline putting a very useful cc skill on cool down. This is extremely unrealistic and possibly even dangerous when your group already struggles with cc because you're effectively wasting a heavy cc skill just so you can pump out an extra F1 which you could also do with Blood Reckoning and that even heals you for a percent of damage done. This is a good example of what people mean when they say these rotations are, to put it in strong terms, rubbish. I would surely hope you would atleast agree that doing things like this is not healthy and leads to bad decisions when someone would follow her rotations.

 

Basically what it boils down too is the fact that atleast in qt/snow crow rotations there is a certain logic, which i have trouble finding in hers. So why try and follow some rotation that is in all logic sub optimal, and perhaps even detrimental to the run. Like learning to waste cc skills in rotation when someone, for example, is about to get sacrificed at Matthias leading to not enough cc and someone gets sacrificed and dies.

 

All i'm saying is why go and learn something sub-optimal when you can learn something optimal, there is no difference in the process of learning something bad or good but for the end result when you have to put what you learned in practice. Learning a rotation from her or learning a rotation from qt/snow crows/lucky noobs is nothing different except for the quality. Like people are arguing that you can learn to drive a toy car via remote control when you could also just learn how to drive an actual car.

 

Hopefully i would get a better counter argument to this then someone going "nye, you're mean and elitist" because that just...contributes nothing and shows a heavy lack of understanding of the topic.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @Static.9841 said:

> All this is doing is telling newbie raiders and bad players that they can bring whatever the heck they like and not worry about compositions, decent rotations or to strive for anything above mediocrity and will just further people getting upset about being kicked from raids and blaming it on elitism rather than how atrocious they are and how bad their build is.

 

Raids are designed the way you need absolutely nothing more than mediocrity. Fake elitism is fake. No raid boss is hard dps check. There is a lot of room for mistakes or less stressful approach.

 

[Joxer.6024]

> @Verenhimo.3296 said:

> > @LadyKitty.6120 said:

> > Most of the bosses don't require a single meta support build. Meta supports do make reaching optimal DPS easier, but it's not like other classes can't grant might, quickness and fury, for example. As long as squad's average DPS through the mechanisms is enough to get the kill before enrage timer

> >

>

> Stopping you here, surely you see the huge loophole in your way of thinking, you take longer to do the boss, the boss does more mechanics, the chance to wipe becomes increasingly more high, people -STRUGGLE- with min/maxed meta builds as it is, it's not often to have 100li pugs following it wipe alot, could you imagine how terrible everything would be if we deferred back to not giving half a toss and just hoping we brute through an encounter on the lowest denominator check?

>

> Please go do a clear with any level of LI pug and refuse to take the 6 meta supports, record it and get back to me how that works for you.

 

The point trying to be made is that not everyone wants to join a pug like that nor do they want/need/feel like doing a speed clear. FFS raids in WOW used to take up to 2 hrs for 1 wing and you guys (the really uber raiders) are clearing the ones in that time frame, all wings! Sometimes is just as fun to enjoy the battle and some of the work put into the fight than just blow through it and go, now what?

The people that want the speed clears, and non wiping no tear clears will of course follow qT (I do) and the meta and pug a group asking for LI's (I wont). But there is also a vast number who just wanna have fun, and I think that's the target she is aiming for.

[Lunaire.9741]

> @Joxer.6024 said:

> > @Verenhimo.3296 said:

> > > @LadyKitty.6120 said:

> > > Most of the bosses don't require a single meta support build. Meta supports do make reaching optimal DPS easier, but it's not like other classes can't grant might, quickness and fury, for example. As long as squad's average DPS through the mechanisms is enough to get the kill before enrage timer

> > >

> >

> > Stopping you here, surely you see the huge loophole in your way of thinking, you take longer to do the boss, the boss does more mechanics, the chance to wipe becomes increasingly more high, people -STRUGGLE- with min/maxed meta builds as it is, it's not often to have 100li pugs following it wipe alot, could you imagine how terrible everything would be if we deferred back to not giving half a toss and just hoping we brute through an encounter on the lowest denominator check?

> >

> > Please go do a clear with any level of LI pug and refuse to take the 6 meta supports, record it and get back to me how that works for you.

>

> The point trying to be made is that not everyone wants to join a pug like that nor do they want/need/feel like doing a speed clear. kitten raids in WOW used to take up to 2 hrs for 1 wing and you guys (the really uber raiders) are clearing the ones in that time frame, all wings! Sometimes is just as fun to enjoy the battle and some of the work put into the fight than just blow through it and go, now what?

> The people that want the speed clears, and non wiping no tear clears will of course follow qT (I do) and the meta and pug a group asking for LI's (I wont). But there is also a vast number who just wanna have fun, and I think that's the target she is aiming for.

 

Except those same people end up in the people wanting fast clears group cause deep down no one wants to spend hours wiping on the same boss.

DPS classes have the easiest roles in raid, they have 0 responsibilities apart from doing damage. You'd think or atleast hope they would try doing the one thing they are responsible for

[Joxer.6024]

> @Digit.1823 said:

> > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > They won't be well received because community is biased towards playing certain builds even though I dare to say 70% of pugs is incapable of executing meta builds. Kitty's builds do enough damage to allow raid to be cleared. No boss in raids requires top benchmark. 20k is absolutely enough.

>

> I would like to know why pugs are incapable of executing meta builds from qt/snow crows though according to you. Is it because they have to follow a "30 step rotation"? (Hint: they don't all have 30 steps, i'm looking at you condi ele/condi ps/condi daredevil/condi renegade and others) Because the way i see it Kitty has a rotation too in her videos...even often mimicking the qt rotations but with even more (and often extremely useless and unneeded) actions added in between the steps. I mean she literally needs to follow a rotation to even get to a few of the numbers she places in her benchmarks.

>

> Take her power berserker rotation for instance as a small example. In those rotations she does not take Blood Reckoning to recharge that F1 burst, but instead opts for taking wild blow AND THEN USING THAT to regain adrenaline putting a very useful cc skill on cool down. This is extremely unrealistic and possibly even dangerous when your group already struggles with cc because you're effectively wasting a heavy cc skill just so you can pump out an extra F1 which you could also do with Blood Reckoning and that even heals you for a percent of damage done. This is a good example of what people mean when they say these rotations are, to put it in strong terms, rubbish. I would surely hope you would atleast agree that doing things like this is not healthy and leads to bad decisions when someone would follow her rotations.

>

> Basically what it boils down too is the fact that atleast in qt/snow crow rotations there is a certain logic, which i have trouble finding in hers. So why try and follow some rotation that is in all logic sub optimal, and perhaps even detrimental to the run. Like learning to waste cc skills in rotation when someone, for example, is about to get sacrificed at Matthias leading to not enough cc and someone gets sacrificed and dies.

>

> All i'm saying is why go and learn something sub-optimal when you can learn something optimal, there is no difference in the process of learning something bad or good but for the end result when you have to put what you learned in practice. Learning a rotation from her or learning a rotation from qt/snow crows/lucky noobs is nothing different except for the quality. Like people are arguing that you can learn to drive a toy car via remote control when you could also just learn how to drive an actual car.

>

> Hopefully i would get a better counter argument to this then someone going "nye, you're mean and elitist" because that just...contributes nothing and shows a heavy lack of understanding of the topic.

 

On these points I will have to agree, especially the one about the War rotation....yea, bad, just bad really.

[Joxer.6024]

> @Lunaire.9741 said:

> > @Joxer.6024 said:

> > > @Verenhimo.3296 said:

> > > > @LadyKitty.6120 said:

> > > > Most of the bosses don't require a single meta support build. Meta supports do make reaching optimal DPS easier, but it's not like other classes can't grant might, quickness and fury, for example. As long as squad's average DPS through the mechanisms is enough to get the kill before enrage timer

> > > >

> > >

> > > Stopping you here, surely you see the huge loophole in your way of thinking, you take longer to do the boss, the boss does more mechanics, the chance to wipe becomes increasingly more high, people -STRUGGLE- with min/maxed meta builds as it is, it's not often to have 100li pugs following it wipe alot, could you imagine how terrible everything would be if we deferred back to not giving half a toss and just hoping we brute through an encounter on the lowest denominator check?

> > >

> > > Please go do a clear with any level of LI pug and refuse to take the 6 meta supports, record it and get back to me how that works for you.

> >

> > The point trying to be made is that not everyone wants to join a pug like that nor do they want/need/feel like doing a speed clear. kitten raids in WOW used to take up to 2 hrs for 1 wing and you guys (the really uber raiders) are clearing the ones in that time frame, all wings! Sometimes is just as fun to enjoy the battle and some of the work put into the fight than just blow through it and go, now what?

> > The people that want the speed clears, and non wiping no tear clears will of course follow qT (I do) and the meta and pug a group asking for LI's (I wont). But there is also a vast number who just wanna have fun, and I think that's the target she is aiming for.

>

> Except those same people end up in the people wanting fast clears group cause deep down no one wants to spend hours wiping on the same boss.

> DPS classes have the easiest roles in raid, they have 0 responsibilities apart from doing damage. You'd think or atleast hope they would try doing the one thing they are responsible for

 

Yea, on that I am with you. One of my worst hates if you will is people that want a carry. Now, I am not for kicking someone for crappy dps but if we can help them then its just helps the whole picture as it makes them better raiders in the end. I don't mind wipes if we as a group are learning or have a new tank or any of the other variables. I am used it coming from WOW...hours spent on endless trash only to wipe on Boss because someone couldn't cc or god knows what. So yea, it doesn't bother me. But that's me and I reckon there all a lot that are just the opposite. Same reason I don't do dungeons as it seems everyone wants to just blow thru them, whereas I would like to try and fight and learn mechanics and all that. I am also a late comer to the game and get that most are over dungeons, so that's fine.

But yea, if most of the post on these forums are from those that wish to be carried......please no.

[Verenhimo.3296]

> @Joxer.6024 said:

> > @Verenhimo.3296 said:

> > > @LadyKitty.6120 said:

> > > Most of the bosses don't require a single meta support build. Meta supports do make reaching optimal DPS easier, but it's not like other classes can't grant might, quickness and fury, for example. As long as squad's average DPS through the mechanisms is enough to get the kill before enrage timer

> > >

> >

> > Stopping you here, surely you see the huge loophole in your way of thinking, you take longer to do the boss, the boss does more mechanics, the chance to wipe becomes increasingly more high, people -STRUGGLE- with min/maxed meta builds as it is, it's not often to have 100li pugs following it wipe alot, could you imagine how terrible everything would be if we deferred back to not giving half a toss and just hoping we brute through an encounter on the lowest denominator check?

> >

> > Please go do a clear with any level of LI pug and refuse to take the 6 meta supports, record it and get back to me how that works for you.

>

> The point trying to be made is that not everyone wants to join a pug like that nor do they want/need/feel like doing a speed clear. kitten raids in WOW used to take up to 2 hrs for 1 wing and you guys (the really uber raiders) are clearing the ones in that time frame, all wings! Sometimes is just as fun to enjoy the battle and some of the work put into the fight than just blow through it and go, now what?

 

The sheer difference in this comparison, one WoW rotations are simulated to perfection in hundreds of thousands of itterations, EVERYONE I know in that game has always worked towards the same goal in terms of getting better at classes, your comparison is not one of "oh we just didn't take whats optimal" because out of 20/25 difficulty ther eis ALOT of flexibility. What you're comparing is a low skill group too one that is high skill, and hence can clear faster, put the high skill on the same classes as yours and they'll still clear in twice your time.

 

And given how highend raiders on WoW clear multiple times a week on mains and alts, it's safe to say they experience more of the content than a group that just lazily drifts through one wing does.

 

[LadyKitty.6120]

> @Joxer.6024 said:

> The point trying to be made is that not everyone wants to join a pug like that nor do they want/need/feel like doing a speed clear. kitten raids in WOW used to take up to 2 hrs for 1 wing and you guys (the really uber raiders) are clearing the ones in that time frame, all wings! Sometimes is just as fun to enjoy the battle and some of the work put into the fight than just blow through it and go, now what?

> The people that want the speed clears, and non wiping no tear clears will of course follow qT (I do) and the meta and pug a group asking for LI's (I wont). But there is also a vast number who just wanna have fun, and I think that's the target she is aiming for.

 

> @Static.9841 said:

> Yeah because a composition with no proper support and a "bring what you like" attitude, aiming for low DPS with rotations that promote DPS loss because of badly used skills where auto-attack would be better and using CC abilities whenever you feel like rather than when needed is going to be completely free of stress. I think you're more clueless than she is.

 

Enough support to help DPSers do enough damage is all that is needed. And it's not like Kitty's yelling "FOLLOW THE ROTATION KITTY SHOWS ON THIS VID". She does expect people to have at least some common sense to save CCs for the time they are needed, even if it drops DPS a bit. And that's a matter of knowing the boss fight well enough 'cause bosses have breakbars bound to either certain time, interval or health% mostly.

 

And like Kitty's prolly already said more than once, what she's doing isn't aimed for speedrunners, 'cause speedrunners want optimized DPS and for such, qT the best source. Kitty just offers some alternatives, most of which are viable enough to carry their weight if played properly.

 

[cat.8975]

Good players can use trash builds and sort of get away with it.

Bad players need good builds if they want reasonable results.

 

Imagine you have two players. Player A can hit 95% of a benchmark, while player B can only hit 65%. If you give both of them a build that is 20% weaker, then you end up with someone playing at 76% effectiveness, and someone playing at **52%**. You should always take every little gain you can get, and builds are a big part of that.

 

The longer a fight takes, the more likely you are to have someone fail a mechanic and cause a raid wipe. You should almost always strive for faster kill times because of this (unless you're intentionally goofing around). The only exception to this is running safer builds/strats where, while the time-to-kill may be longer, the chance of failure is significantly lowered enough to make up for it.

 

[LadyKitty.6120]

> @cat.8975 said:

> The only exception to this is running safer builds/strats where, while the time-to-kill may be longer, the chance of failure is significantly lowered enough to make up for it.

 

Which is why Kitty's currently farming gears for DPS/support builds to benchmark them after she's done with pure DPS builds. 'Cause we currently have way more DPS available than what's needed to clear a boss and thus bringing some extra support does help increase the chance of getting the kill.

 

 

[Joxer.6024]

> @Verenhimo.3296 said:

> > @Joxer.6024 said:

> > > @Verenhimo.3296 said:

> > > > @LadyKitty.6120 said:

> > > > Most of the bosses don't require a single meta support build. Meta supports do make reaching optimal DPS easier, but it's not like other classes can't grant might, quickness and fury, for example. As long as squad's average DPS through the mechanisms is enough to get the kill before enrage timer

> > > >

> > >

> > > Stopping you here, surely you see the huge loophole in your way of thinking, you take longer to do the boss, the boss does more mechanics, the chance to wipe becomes increasingly more high, people -STRUGGLE- with min/maxed meta builds as it is, it's not often to have 100li pugs following it wipe alot, could you imagine how terrible everything would be if we deferred back to not giving half a toss and just hoping we brute through an encounter on the lowest denominator check?

> > >

> > > Please go do a clear with any level of LI pug and refuse to take the 6 meta supports, record it and get back to me how that works for you.

> >

> > The point trying to be made is that not everyone wants to join a pug like that nor do they want/need/feel like doing a speed clear. kitten raids in WOW used to take up to 2 hrs for 1 wing and you guys (the really uber raiders) are clearing the ones in that time frame, all wings! Sometimes is just as fun to enjoy the battle and some of the work put into the fight than just blow through it and go, now what?

>

> The sheer difference in this comparison, one WoW rotations are simulated to perfection in hundreds of thousands of itterations, EVERYONE I know in that game has always worked towards the same goal in terms of getting better at classes, your comparison is not one of "oh we just didn't take whats optimal" because out of 20/25 difficulty ther eis ALOT of flexibility. What you're comparing is a low skill group too one that is high skill, and hence can clear faster, put the high skill on the same classes as yours and they'll still clear in twice your time.

>

> And given how highend raiders on WoW clear multiple times a week on mains and alts, it's safe to say they experience more of the content than a group that just lazily drifts through one wing does.

>

 

I did as well. Studied and watched and practiced and geared to become the best I could. But as I have mentioned it has been a few years for me and since then the game has changed so my references to WOW are dated, so may not be the best to pull from but its all I got.

[Verenhimo.3296]

> @LadyKitty.6120 said:

 

> **Enough support to help DPSers do enough damage is all that is needed**. And it's not like Kitty's yelling "FOLLOW THE ROTATION KITTY SHOWS ON THIS VID". She does expect people to have at least some common sense to save CCs for the time they are needed, even if it drops DPS a bit. And that's a matter of knowing the boss fight well enough 'cause bosses have breakbars bound to either certain time, interval or health% mostly.

>

> And like Kitty's prolly already said more than once, what she's doing isn't aimed for speedrunners, 'cause speedrunners want optimized DPS and for such, qT the best source. Kitty just offers some alternatives, most of which are viable enough to carry their weight if played properly.

>

 

So nomatter what someone else has to sacrifice there fun so you can play a snowflake build, why should 3/6 people have to play supports just too enable people to play lazily, it's not like it's hard to see how little DPS these builds do when you pull the rug of alacrity, quickness, 25 might, banners, spotter, spirits & fury out from under them.

 

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @Verenhimo.3296 said:

> > @LadyKitty.6120 said:

>

> > **Enough support to help DPSers do enough damage is all that is needed**. And it's not like Kitty's yelling "FOLLOW THE ROTATION KITTY SHOWS ON THIS VID". She does expect people to have at least some common sense to save CCs for the time they are needed, even if it drops DPS a bit. And that's a matter of knowing the boss fight well enough 'cause bosses have breakbars bound to either certain time, interval or health% mostly.

> >

> > And like Kitty's prolly already said more than once, what she's doing isn't aimed for speedrunners, 'cause speedrunners want optimized DPS and for such, qT the best source. Kitty just offers some alternatives, most of which are viable enough to carry their weight if played properly.

> >

>

> So nomatter what someone else has to sacrifice there fun so you can play a snowflake build, why should 3/6 people have to play supports just too enable people to play lazily, it's not like it's hard to see how little DPS these builds do when you pull the rug of alacrity, quickness, 25 might, banners, spotter, spirits & fury out from under them.

>

 

meta weaver is also trash without all the support leeched from other players

[Verenhimo.3296]

> @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > @Verenhimo.3296 said:

> > > @LadyKitty.6120 said:

> >

> > > **Enough support to help DPSers do enough damage is all that is needed**. And it's not like Kitty's yelling "FOLLOW THE ROTATION KITTY SHOWS ON THIS VID". She does expect people to have at least some common sense to save CCs for the time they are needed, even if it drops DPS a bit. And that's a matter of knowing the boss fight well enough 'cause bosses have breakbars bound to either certain time, interval or health% mostly.

> > >

> > > And like Kitty's prolly already said more than once, what she's doing isn't aimed for speedrunners, 'cause speedrunners want optimized DPS and for such, qT the best source. Kitty just offers some alternatives, most of which are viable enough to carry their weight if played properly.

> > >

> >

> > So nomatter what someone else has to sacrifice there fun so you can play a snowflake build, why should 3/6 people have to play supports just too enable people to play lazily, it's not like it's hard to see how little DPS these builds do when you pull the rug of alacrity, quickness, 25 might, banners, spotter, spirits & fury out from under them.

> >

>

> meta weaver is also trash without all the support leeched from other players

 

You're fixation on weaver is urking, I would imagine ALOT of classes barely reach respectable numbers without the chrono safety net, hence the support meta ¬¬.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @Verenhimo.3296 said:

> > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > @Verenhimo.3296 said:

> > > > @LadyKitty.6120 said:

> > >

> > > > **Enough support to help DPSers do enough damage is all that is needed**. And it's not like Kitty's yelling "FOLLOW THE ROTATION KITTY SHOWS ON THIS VID". She does expect people to have at least some common sense to save CCs for the time they are needed, even if it drops DPS a bit. And that's a matter of knowing the boss fight well enough 'cause bosses have breakbars bound to either certain time, interval or health% mostly.

> > > >

> > > > And like Kitty's prolly already said more than once, what she's doing isn't aimed for speedrunners, 'cause speedrunners want optimized DPS and for such, qT the best source. Kitty just offers some alternatives, most of which are viable enough to carry their weight if played properly.

> > > >

> > >

> > > So nomatter what someone else has to sacrifice there fun so you can play a snowflake build, why should 3/6 people have to play supports just too enable people to play lazily, it's not like it's hard to see how little DPS these builds do when you pull the rug of alacrity, quickness, 25 might, banners, spotter, spirits & fury out from under them.

> > >

> >

> > meta weaver is also trash without all the support leeched from other players

>

> You're fixation on weaver is urking, I would imagine ALOT of classes barely reach respectable numbers without the chrono safety net, hence the support meta ¬¬.

 

which means argument against using support builds together with Kitty's builds is pointless because both her and qT's benchmarks are inflated with optimal support combos

[Static.9841]

> @LadyKitty.6120 said:

> And like Kitty's prolly already said more than once, what she's doing isn't aimed for speedrunners, 'cause speedrunners want optimized DPS and for such, qT the best source. Kitty just offers some alternatives, most of which are viable enough to carry their weight if played properly.

>

 

Yes, I'm aware of you constantly attempting to use this same phrase ad nauseam as your cardboard shield to hide behind, but in reality it's not viable for any competent run. It's not about speedclearing, it's about efficient clearing. I'd love to see you go against sloth tossing out your DPS and CC at random rather than in any way that could be considered efficient and see how well you do. If you ever managed to beat a raid boss, I'd consider it a statistical fluke after many hours of failed attempts.

 

I want to see logs from a series of runs on all raid bosses.

[Verenhimo.3296]

> @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > @Verenhimo.3296 said:

> > > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > > @Verenhimo.3296 said:

> > > > > @LadyKitty.6120 said:

> > > >

> > > > > **Enough support to help DPSers do enough damage is all that is needed**. And it's not like Kitty's yelling "FOLLOW THE ROTATION KITTY SHOWS ON THIS VID". She does expect people to have at least some common sense to save CCs for the time they are needed, even if it drops DPS a bit. And that's a matter of knowing the boss fight well enough 'cause bosses have breakbars bound to either certain time, interval or health% mostly.

> > > > >

> > > > > And like Kitty's prolly already said more than once, what she's doing isn't aimed for speedrunners, 'cause speedrunners want optimized DPS and for such, qT the best source. Kitty just offers some alternatives, most of which are viable enough to carry their weight if played properly.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > So nomatter what someone else has to sacrifice there fun so you can play a snowflake build, why should 3/6 people have to play supports just too enable people to play lazily, it's not like it's hard to see how little DPS these builds do when you pull the rug of alacrity, quickness, 25 might, banners, spotter, spirits & fury out from under them.

> > > >

> > >

> > > meta weaver is also trash without all the support leeched from other players

> >

> > You're fixation on weaver is urking, I would imagine ALOT of classes barely reach respectable numbers without the chrono safety net, hence the support meta ¬¬.

>

> which means argument against using support builds together with Kitty's builds is pointless because both her and qT's benchmarks are inflated with optimal support combos

 

Who do you think has a higher chance of clearing, high dps optmized builds with no support, or badly played snowflake builds with no support? :+1: