GrubySzymek.1362 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 > @Verenhimo.3296 said: > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > @Verenhimo.3296 said: > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > > @Verenhimo.3296 said: > > > > > > @LadyKitty.6120 said: > > > > > > > > > > > **Enough support to help DPSers do enough damage is all that is needed**. And it's not like Kitty's yelling "FOLLOW THE ROTATION KITTY SHOWS ON THIS VID". She does expect people to have at least some common sense to save CCs for the time they are needed, even if it drops DPS a bit. And that's a matter of knowing the boss fight well enough 'cause bosses have breakbars bound to either certain time, interval or health% mostly. > > > > > > > > > > > > And like Kitty's prolly already said more than once, what she's doing isn't aimed for speedrunners, 'cause speedrunners want optimized DPS and for such, qT the best source. Kitty just offers some alternatives, most of which are viable enough to carry their weight if played properly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So nomatter what someone else has to sacrifice there fun so you can play a snowflake build, why should 3/6 people have to play supports just too enable people to play lazily, it's not like it's hard to see how little DPS these builds do when you pull the rug of alacrity, quickness, 25 might, banners, spotter, spirits & fury out from under them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > meta weaver is also trash without all the support leeched from other players > > > > > > You're fixation on weaver is urking, I would imagine ALOT of classes barely reach respectable numbers without the chrono safety net, hence the support meta ¬¬. > > > > which means argument against using support builds together with Kitty's builds is pointless because both her and qT's benchmarks are inflated with optimal support combos > > Who do you think has a higher chance of clearing, high dps optmized builds with no support, or badly played snowflake builds with no support? :+1: > both will fail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verenhimo.3296 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > @Verenhimo.3296 said: > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > @Verenhimo.3296 said: > > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > > > @Verenhimo.3296 said: > > > > > > > @LadyKitty.6120 said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > **Enough support to help DPSers do enough damage is all that is needed**. And it's not like Kitty's yelling "FOLLOW THE ROTATION KITTY SHOWS ON THIS VID". She does expect people to have at least some common sense to save CCs for the time they are needed, even if it drops DPS a bit. And that's a matter of knowing the boss fight well enough 'cause bosses have breakbars bound to either certain time, interval or health% mostly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And like Kitty's prolly already said more than once, what she's doing isn't aimed for speedrunners, 'cause speedrunners want optimized DPS and for such, qT the best source. Kitty just offers some alternatives, most of which are viable enough to carry their weight if played properly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So nomatter what someone else has to sacrifice there fun so you can play a snowflake build, why should 3/6 people have to play supports just too enable people to play lazily, it's not like it's hard to see how little DPS these builds do when you pull the rug of alacrity, quickness, 25 might, banners, spotter, spirits & fury out from under them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > meta weaver is also trash without all the support leeched from other players > > > > > > > > You're fixation on weaver is urking, I would imagine ALOT of classes barely reach respectable numbers without the chrono safety net, hence the support meta ¬¬. > > > > > > which means argument against using support builds together with Kitty's builds is pointless because both her and qT's benchmarks are inflated with optimal support combos > > > > Who do you think has a higher chance of clearing, high dps optmized builds with no support, or badly played snowflake builds with no support? :+1: > > > > both will fail Please, the math is easily there. please stop trying to speak on matters with feels over facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunaire.9741 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > @Verenhimo.3296 said: > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > @Verenhimo.3296 said: > > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > > > @Verenhimo.3296 said: > > > > > > > @LadyKitty.6120 said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > **Enough support to help DPSers do enough damage is all that is needed**. And it's not like Kitty's yelling "FOLLOW THE ROTATION KITTY SHOWS ON THIS VID". She does expect people to have at least some common sense to save CCs for the time they are needed, even if it drops DPS a bit. And that's a matter of knowing the boss fight well enough 'cause bosses have breakbars bound to either certain time, interval or health% mostly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And like Kitty's prolly already said more than once, what she's doing isn't aimed for speedrunners, 'cause speedrunners want optimized DPS and for such, qT the best source. Kitty just offers some alternatives, most of which are viable enough to carry their weight if played properly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So nomatter what someone else has to sacrifice there fun so you can play a snowflake build, why should 3/6 people have to play supports just too enable people to play lazily, it's not like it's hard to see how little DPS these builds do when you pull the rug of alacrity, quickness, 25 might, banners, spotter, spirits & fury out from under them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > meta weaver is also trash without all the support leeched from other players > > > > > > > > You're fixation on weaver is urking, I would imagine ALOT of classes barely reach respectable numbers without the chrono safety net, hence the support meta ¬¬. > > > > > > which means argument against using support builds together with Kitty's builds is pointless because both her and qT's benchmarks are inflated with optimal support combos > > > > Who do you think has a higher chance of clearing, high dps optmized builds with no support, or badly played snowflake builds with no support? :+1: > > > > both will fail what about special snowflake support builds, healing thief maybe?... oh wait Im sure you expect chronos and druids in the group and to play something proper. no fun for them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 > @Lunaire.9741 said: > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > @Verenhimo.3296 said: > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > > @Verenhimo.3296 said: > > > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > > > > @Verenhimo.3296 said: > > > > > > > > @LadyKitty.6120 said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **Enough support to help DPSers do enough damage is all that is needed**. And it's not like Kitty's yelling "FOLLOW THE ROTATION KITTY SHOWS ON THIS VID". She does expect people to have at least some common sense to save CCs for the time they are needed, even if it drops DPS a bit. And that's a matter of knowing the boss fight well enough 'cause bosses have breakbars bound to either certain time, interval or health% mostly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And like Kitty's prolly already said more than once, what she's doing isn't aimed for speedrunners, 'cause speedrunners want optimized DPS and for such, qT the best source. Kitty just offers some alternatives, most of which are viable enough to carry their weight if played properly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So nomatter what someone else has to sacrifice there fun so you can play a snowflake build, why should 3/6 people have to play supports just too enable people to play lazily, it's not like it's hard to see how little DPS these builds do when you pull the rug of alacrity, quickness, 25 might, banners, spotter, spirits & fury out from under them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > meta weaver is also trash without all the support leeched from other players > > > > > > > > > > You're fixation on weaver is urking, I would imagine ALOT of classes barely reach respectable numbers without the chrono safety net, hence the support meta ¬¬. > > > > > > > > which means argument against using support builds together with Kitty's builds is pointless because both her and qT's benchmarks are inflated with optimal support combos > > > > > > Who do you think has a higher chance of clearing, high dps optmized builds with no support, or badly played snowflake builds with no support? :+1: > > > > > > > both will fail > > what about special snowflake support builds, healing thief maybe?... oh wait Im sure you expect chronos and druids in the group and to play something proper. no fun for them Special snowflake still can be reasonable build. Like Kitty builds. You need to start thinking outside the box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunaire.9741 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > @Lunaire.9741 said: > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > @Verenhimo.3296 said: > > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > > > @Verenhimo.3296 said: > > > > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > > > > > @Verenhimo.3296 said: > > > > > > > > > @LadyKitty.6120 said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **Enough support to help DPSers do enough damage is all that is needed**. And it's not like Kitty's yelling "FOLLOW THE ROTATION KITTY SHOWS ON THIS VID". She does expect people to have at least some common sense to save CCs for the time they are needed, even if it drops DPS a bit. And that's a matter of knowing the boss fight well enough 'cause bosses have breakbars bound to either certain time, interval or health% mostly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And like Kitty's prolly already said more than once, what she's doing isn't aimed for speedrunners, 'cause speedrunners want optimized DPS and for such, qT the best source. Kitty just offers some alternatives, most of which are viable enough to carry their weight if played properly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So nomatter what someone else has to sacrifice there fun so you can play a snowflake build, why should 3/6 people have to play supports just too enable people to play lazily, it's not like it's hard to see how little DPS these builds do when you pull the rug of alacrity, quickness, 25 might, banners, spotter, spirits & fury out from under them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > meta weaver is also trash without all the support leeched from other players > > > > > > > > > > > > You're fixation on weaver is urking, I would imagine ALOT of classes barely reach respectable numbers without the chrono safety net, hence the support meta ¬¬. > > > > > > > > > > which means argument against using support builds together with Kitty's builds is pointless because both her and qT's benchmarks are inflated with optimal support combos > > > > > > > > Who do you think has a higher chance of clearing, high dps optmized builds with no support, or badly played snowflake builds with no support? :+1: > > > > > > > > > > both will fail > > > > what about special snowflake support builds, healing thief maybe?... oh wait Im sure you expect chronos and druids in the group and to play something proper. no fun for them > > Special snowflake still can be reasonable build. Like Kitty builds. You need to start thinking outside the box. But her testing is done with 5 stacks of Gotl, with perma alacrity and quickness with the druid spirits. thats requires those classes to be running proper stuff. So to some extent she obviously expect the support classes to be running correct builds. as i was saying earlier double standards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 > @Lunaire.9741 said: > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > @Lunaire.9741 said: > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > > @Verenhimo.3296 said: > > > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > > > > @Verenhimo.3296 said: > > > > > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > > > > > > @Verenhimo.3296 said: > > > > > > > > > > @LadyKitty.6120 said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **Enough support to help DPSers do enough damage is all that is needed**. And it's not like Kitty's yelling "FOLLOW THE ROTATION KITTY SHOWS ON THIS VID". She does expect people to have at least some common sense to save CCs for the time they are needed, even if it drops DPS a bit. And that's a matter of knowing the boss fight well enough 'cause bosses have breakbars bound to either certain time, interval or health% mostly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And like Kitty's prolly already said more than once, what she's doing isn't aimed for speedrunners, 'cause speedrunners want optimized DPS and for such, qT the best source. Kitty just offers some alternatives, most of which are viable enough to carry their weight if played properly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So nomatter what someone else has to sacrifice there fun so you can play a snowflake build, why should 3/6 people have to play supports just too enable people to play lazily, it's not like it's hard to see how little DPS these builds do when you pull the rug of alacrity, quickness, 25 might, banners, spotter, spirits & fury out from under them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > meta weaver is also trash without all the support leeched from other players > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're fixation on weaver is urking, I would imagine ALOT of classes barely reach respectable numbers without the chrono safety net, hence the support meta ¬¬. > > > > > > > > > > > > which means argument against using support builds together with Kitty's builds is pointless because both her and qT's benchmarks are inflated with optimal support combos > > > > > > > > > > Who do you think has a higher chance of clearing, high dps optmized builds with no support, or badly played snowflake builds with no support? :+1: > > > > > > > > > > > > > both will fail > > > > > > what about special snowflake support builds, healing thief maybe?... oh wait Im sure you expect chronos and druids in the group and to play something proper. no fun for them > > > > Special snowflake still can be reasonable build. Like Kitty builds. You need to start thinking outside the box. > > But her testing is done with 5 stacks of Gotl, with perma alacrity and quickness with the druid spirits. thats requires those classes to be running proper stuff. So to some extent she obviously expect the support classes to be running correct builds. as i was saying earlier double standards. setting up party composition is up to commander Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunaire.9741 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > @Lunaire.9741 said: > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > @Lunaire.9741 said: > > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > > > @Verenhimo.3296 said: > > > > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > > > > > @Verenhimo.3296 said: > > > > > > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > > > > > > > @Verenhimo.3296 said: > > > > > > > > > > > @LadyKitty.6120 said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **Enough support to help DPSers do enough damage is all that is needed**. And it's not like Kitty's yelling "FOLLOW THE ROTATION KITTY SHOWS ON THIS VID". She does expect people to have at least some common sense to save CCs for the time they are needed, even if it drops DPS a bit. And that's a matter of knowing the boss fight well enough 'cause bosses have breakbars bound to either certain time, interval or health% mostly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And like Kitty's prolly already said more than once, what she's doing isn't aimed for speedrunners, 'cause speedrunners want optimized DPS and for such, qT the best source. Kitty just offers some alternatives, most of which are viable enough to carry their weight if played properly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So nomatter what someone else has to sacrifice there fun so you can play a snowflake build, why should 3/6 people have to play supports just too enable people to play lazily, it's not like it's hard to see how little DPS these builds do when you pull the rug of alacrity, quickness, 25 might, banners, spotter, spirits & fury out from under them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > meta weaver is also trash without all the support leeched from other players > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're fixation on weaver is urking, I would imagine ALOT of classes barely reach respectable numbers without the chrono safety net, hence the support meta ¬¬. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > which means argument against using support builds together with Kitty's builds is pointless because both her and qT's benchmarks are inflated with optimal support combos > > > > > > > > > > > > Who do you think has a higher chance of clearing, high dps optmized builds with no support, or badly played snowflake builds with no support? :+1: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > both will fail > > > > > > > > what about special snowflake support builds, healing thief maybe?... oh wait Im sure you expect chronos and druids in the group and to play something proper. no fun for them > > > > > > Special snowflake still can be reasonable build. Like Kitty builds. You need to start thinking outside the box. > > > > But her testing is done with 5 stacks of Gotl, with perma alacrity and quickness with the druid spirits. thats requires those classes to be running proper stuff. So to some extent she obviously expect the support classes to be running correct builds. as i was saying earlier double standards. > > setting up party composition is up to commander Im aware of this. It doesn't change what I'm saying about all these "run whatever you want build" people. They are mostly DPS'ers saying that. They still expect to be in a group with proper support. So if they expect Meta comp then why not just run meta builds too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digit.1823 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 > @LadyKitty.6120 said: > Enough support to help DPSers do enough damage is all that is needed. And it's not like Kitty's yelling "FOLLOW THE ROTATION KITTY SHOWS ON THIS VID". She does expect people to have at least some common sense to save CCs for the time they are needed, even if it drops DPS a bit. And that's a matter of knowing the boss fight well enough 'cause bosses have breakbars bound to either certain time, interval or health% mostly. > > And like Kitty's prolly already said more than once, what she's doing isn't aimed for speedrunners, 'cause speedrunners want optimized DPS and for such, qT the best source. Kitty just offers some alternatives, most of which are viable enough to carry their weight if played properly. I would expect you to use common sense as well, it's true you're not literally telling people to follow your rotations but by releasing your benchmarks and video's you are implying it. Why go though all this trouble of benchmarking/keeping up your website/making videos if it's not so people have something to follow. If you expect "avarage pug" people to hit at least somewhere on the level of your numbers they are going to have to mimic your actions to some extent. Just as people have to mimic qt/sc/ln rotations if they want to hit the numbers they are putting out. Honestly, you're not doing all this just to go: "I know i've been making benchmarks and videos, but you can throw everything i'm doing out the window and just do, i dunno, whatehvs rotation you're feeling. Lolz." This is how it works when you make something and then put it out to the public, it WILL get peer reviewed and people WILL tell you if what you're doing is beneficial or harmful. Sure people could maybe bring things a bit more friendly, but beating around the bush and letting you continue your rose colored fantasy is also negative for you. I mean take the cc example i gave, that you're using wild blow in your rotation and then claiming people to be smart and save cc skills even if it drops dps. Woman i literally gave you the highly better alternative - Blood Reckoning - that you could use instead of wild blow. It does everything wild blow does and then more and you don't lose dps: - It's a quicker cast. - It completely removes the cool down on F1 skills so you can use them again instantly. - And it HEALS you for a percent of damage you're doing. Obviously it doesn't do cc damage, but by using Blood Reckoning you can save Wild Blow for the time you do need cc. The fact you didn't think of this yourself makes me question your claim that you're better then the average pug player. Either that or you're not taking the benchmarks that are already out there and have been tested/peer reviewed/tested some more and then released to the public seriously. Everyone, from qt to snow crows. From dnt to Lucky Noobs has used Blood Reckoning in Berserker rotations ever since it came out. It wouldn't hurt you looking at those rotations a bit more to improve your own gameplay and skill. This is an example of what people are talking about when they're speaking of special snowflake builds that actually bring nothing special to the table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 > I would expect you to use common sense as well, it's true you're not literally telling people to follow your rotations but by releasing your benchmarks and video's you are implying it. oh come on, does qt have monopolly for releasing anything for this game? Kitty can share her work as much as any elitist celebrity you decided to follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digit.1823 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > I would expect you to use common sense as well, it's true you're not literally telling people to follow your rotations but by releasing your benchmarks and video's you are implying it. > > oh come on, does qt have monopolly for releasing anything for this game? Kitty can share her work as much as any elitist celebrity you decided to follow. If you're going to cherry pick, then at least cherry pick with a vague understanding of the entire post i made. Qt has a monopoly on nothing, but you try and derail as much as you like. My intentions were to make clear to Kitty that her benchmarks were going to get peer reviewed the instant she made them public, just as qt's benchmarks were peer reviewed. Did you know for instance that qt's condi ps benchmark is not even the maximum? Snow crows player Goku placed a benchmark allowing for more damage, with a slightly different rotation. Did you know qt's condi ps benchmark is not even good for might upkeep? I tested this myself and the nightmare/trapper combo only alllows a vague might upkeep of slightly above 20 and as soon as you even slightly interrupt your rotation it drops down to somewhere around 10/15 because you lack the extra might duration. So i instantly went back to aristocracy runes to ensure my party always gets the 25 might stacks they need. This is what it means to have a good understanding of the game, wich you seem to lack. The player that did the condi ps rotation of qt even said so in the comments of his own youtube video, they only did nightmare/trapper combo to see what their theoretical maximum could be with their own rotation but he instantly admitted that they too run aristocracy in their own raid runs. Now if you want me to engage you further in discussion please stop cherry picking my posts, and please answer my question i made when i quoted you back on page 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 > So i instantly went back to aristocracy runes to ensure my party always gets the 25 might stacks they need. Exactly. People just copy paste qt builds without understanding why they are built this way or that they are made with certain comp in mind. At least you understand how your profession works. Now try explaining this to 10k weavers believing they are actually providing 50k. I like Kitty builds becasue they may be easier to execute for mediocre players resulting in better numbers with less stress than pretending to be speedrunners (which somehow most of raiding community believes they are, top kek). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myhr.9108 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 > @Digit.1823 said: > If you're going to cherry pick, then at least cherry pick with a vague understanding of the entire post i made. Qt has a monopoly on nothing, but you try and derail as much as you like. My intentions were to make clear to Kitty that her benchmarks were going to get peer reviewed the instant she made them public, just as qt's benchmarks were peer reviewed. Did you know for instance that qt's condi ps benchmark is not even the maximum? Snow crows player Goku placed a benchmark allowing for more damage, with a slightly different rotation. Did you know qt's condi ps benchmark is not even good for might upkeep? I tested this myself and the nightmare/trapper combo only alllows a vague might upkeep of slightly above 20 and as soon as you even slightly interrupt your rotation it drops down to somewhere around 10/15 because you lack the extra might duration. So i instantly went back to aristocracy runes to ensure my party always gets the 25 might stacks they need. This is what it means to have a good understanding of the game, wich you seem to lack. The player that did the condi ps rotation of qt even said so in the comments of his own youtube video, they only did nightmare/trapper combo to see what their theoretical maximum could be with their own rotation but he instantly admitted that they too run aristocracy in their own raid runs. > > Now if you want me to engage you further in discussion please stop cherry picking my posts, and please answer my question i made when i quoted you back on page 2. But Kitty's benchmarks are not peer reviewed, because she never claimed to be your peer. To all those that criticize her work, feel free to do so, but almost all of you seem to ignore the fact that you're clearly not the public she's aiming at. You are farming raiders, you want efficiency, excellency, and you know what? More power to you. Kitty's benchmarks are not for farmer raiders (what she calls speed-running raiders, but I think she's incorrect, it's more a matter of efficiency, which tend to lead to faster clean times indeed). You have one fear : that noob raiders will use her tools and feel justify to play off-metabuilds. But this is irrelevant, because, let's be frank, you wouldn't play with people that would use Kitty's benchmarks in the first place! I'll repeat : you're not the intended public, it doesn't impact you in any way, form, or shape. You are the ones selecting the members of your raid squad, right? You're perfectly entitled to demand that they put as much effort as you deem necessary. But if some people are less ambitious, if some people want to find another way to enjoy raids, clearly not as efficient, but wholly conscious of what they're doing,...how does it impact you, honestly? What I think, it's that it's the zerg meta all over. You want people to come preformated so that you have a bigger pool to choose your pugs from. Even if it irks me, I can understand that (that's what I don't raid in GW2, I've cleared raids in the past, I'm burned out). But the fact is, Kitty's benchmarks will never impact that. At worse, it'll be exactly the same as now : either a pug conforms to your criterias, or he/she doesn't, but my suspicion is that's a different public than those that aim for a more casual approach to raid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKitty.6120 Posted October 24, 2017 Author Share Posted October 24, 2017 > @Verenhimo.3296 said: > Please go do a clear with any level of LI pug and refuse to take the 6 meta supports, record it and get back to me how that works for you. Kitty hasn't got a chance to do that with LI-groups 'cause "metasupport or gtfo", but with some nabby squad she actually got quite close to that once. We only had tank chrono as metasupport, rest out of meta. And we also had to carry a bad ranger but whatever. E: Since it doesn't show video's title in embedded vids here, Kitty clarifies that she plays quickness-support/condi-DPS firebrand in the video below. > @cat.8975 said: > Good players can use trash builds and sort of get away with it. > Bad players need good builds if they want reasonable results. > > Imagine you have two players. Player A can hit 95% of a benchmark, while player B can only hit 65%. If you give both of them a build that is 20% weaker, then you end up with someone playing at 76% effectiveness, and someone playing at **52%**. You should always take every little gain you can get, and builds are a big part of that. Kitty didn't have time to reply to this properly earlier as she was at work. This imagination doesn't take into consideration that a weaker build might be a lot easier to learn, like is case with some of Kitty's benchmarks. If player B hits 82% of weaker build's benchmark, that's already a slight improvement to damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digit.1823 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 > @Myhr.9108 said: > > @Digit.1823 said: > > If you're going to cherry pick, then at least cherry pick with a vague understanding of the entire post i made. Qt has a monopoly on nothing, but you try and derail as much as you like. My intentions were to make clear to Kitty that her benchmarks were going to get peer reviewed the instant she made them public, just as qt's benchmarks were peer reviewed. Did you know for instance that qt's condi ps benchmark is not even the maximum? Snow crows player Goku placed a benchmark allowing for more damage, with a slightly different rotation. Did you know qt's condi ps benchmark is not even good for might upkeep? I tested this myself and the nightmare/trapper combo only alllows a vague might upkeep of slightly above 20 and as soon as you even slightly interrupt your rotation it drops down to somewhere around 10/15 because you lack the extra might duration. So i instantly went back to aristocracy runes to ensure my party always gets the 25 might stacks they need. This is what it means to have a good understanding of the game, wich you seem to lack. The player that did the condi ps rotation of qt even said so in the comments of his own youtube video, they only did nightmare/trapper combo to see what their theoretical maximum could be with their own rotation but he instantly admitted that they too run aristocracy in their own raid runs. > > > > Now if you want me to engage you further in discussion please stop cherry picking my posts, and please answer my question i made when i quoted you back on page 2. > > But Kitty's benchmarks are not peer reviewed, because she never claimed to be your peer. To all those that criticize her work, feel free to do so, but almost all of you seem to ignore the fact that you're clearly not the public she's aiming at. You are farming raiders, you want efficiency, excellency, and you know what? More power to you. Kitty's benchmarks are not for farmer raiders (what she calls speed-running raiders, but I think she's incorrect, it's more a matter of efficiency, which tend to lead to faster clean times indeed). > > You have one fear : that noob raiders will use her tools and feel justify to play off-metabuilds. But this is irrelevant, because, let's be frank, you wouldn't play with people that would use Kitty's benchmarks in the first place! I'll repeat : you're not the intended public, it doesn't impact you in any way, form, or shape. You are the ones selecting the members of your raid squad, right? You're perfectly entitled to demand that they put as much effort as you deem necessary. But if some people are less ambitious, if some people want to find another way to enjoy raids, clearly not as efficient, but wholly conscious of what they're doing,...how does it impact you, honestly? > > What I think, it's that it's the zerg meta all over. You want people to come preformated so that you have a bigger pool to choose your pugs from. Even if it irks me, I can understand that (that's what I don't raid in GW2, I've cleared raids in the past, I'm burned out). But the fact is, Kitty's benchmarks will never impact that. At worse, it'll be exactly the same as now : either a pug conforms to your criterias, or he/she doesn't, but my suspicion is that's a different public than those that aim for a more casual approach to raid. It is indeed true that she is not my peer in terms of skill or insight, that much is indeed made clear. But here is another snippet of the definition of peer-reviewing: "evaluation of scientific, academic, or professional work by others working in the same field." Benchmarks and rotations are in this case "the field" we are talking about (i wouldn't know or particularly care if we can call it "scientific" or even "professional"). But what i do know is that the moment she entered the field with benchmarks and numbers that people in the same field can look at it and review it. If you want to nail me to the wall on a technicality then it's easy to rephrase it: The moment she released those benchmarks people with the correct understanding are allowed to look at it, review it and voice their opinion on it. That's how it works. Nothing is stopping me from looking at her rotation videos, using my experience to see something is not quite right and then stating "Hey look, what you're doing here and there is less then optimal for x and y reason." A good example in the case being the Wild Blow vs Blood Reckoning usage i stated in multiple posts now. The only fear i have (nice of you to claim to know my fear btw) is that this is taken seriously, and the people with a scrap of knowledge voicing their concerns are being silenced on the premise of "elitism" by white knights. I've already stated that the process of learning something is exactly the same when learning something bad or good, it is only when you put what you learned into practice that the efficiency becomes visible. Why learn something sub-optimal when you can just start learning something optimal from the start. There is absolutely no difference in using a qt/sc/ln rotation in a high speed raid clear or in a casual run with the difference being how serious you're taking the raid. The order in which you're activating skills stays exactly the same with the only difference maybe being how quickly you're going through the motions to try and maximize your damage. You can try and squeeze that sixth F1 burst on your condi ps every single time, or just let it slide and stick with an easy 5 F1 bursts even if quickness and alacrity up time is sufficient for six bursts every time...sure you're doing less damage but it's still going to be a lot more then when you've learned a rotation that only has room for 3/4 F1 bursts. In the end, when you've learned an efficient rotation, the order in which you're activating your skills stays exactly the same every time so once you've learned that order it's quite easy to go at it a bit slower/easier to allow for a more casual experience. It's like i have to literally tell people that having fun and playing efficiently at the same time is quite possible. Like people think using an efficient rotation means fun gets kicked out the backdoor and can stay in the yard till people are done raiding. What is this, i don't even... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 > @LadyKitty.6120 said: > > @Verenhimo.3296 said: > > Please go do a clear with any level of LI pug and refuse to take the 6 meta supports, record it and get back to me how that works for you. > > Kitty hasn't got a chance to do that with LI-groups 'cause "metasupport or gtfo", but with some nabby squad she actually got quite close to that once. We only had tank chrono as metasupport, rest out of meta. And we also had to carry a bad ranger but whatever. > > > > > @cat.8975 said: > > Good players can use trash builds and sort of get away with it. > > Bad players need good builds if they want reasonable results. > > > > Imagine you have two players. Player A can hit 95% of a benchmark, while player B can only hit 65%. If you give both of them a build that is 20% weaker, then you end up with someone playing at 76% effectiveness, and someone playing at **52%**. You should always take every little gain you can get, and builds are a big part of that. > > Kitty didn't have time to reply to this properly earlier as she was at work. This imagination doesn't take into consideration that a weaker build might be a lot easier to learn, like is case with some of Kitty's benchmarks. If player B hits 82% of weaker build's benchmark, that's already a slight improvement to damage. Good job! To help your case I'd like to suggest you trying to find some time and actually provide videos for some builds where you raid and kill bosses. So all the naysayers can move away to their groups and leave people actually interested in your builds and less stressful gaming read this thread without need to go through all the unnecessary and unjustified elitism here. Don't forget to post more often, I like your thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKitty.6120 Posted October 24, 2017 Author Share Posted October 24, 2017 > @Digit.1823 said: > The only fear i have (nice of you to claim to know my fear btw) is that this is taken seriously, and the people with a scrap of knowledge voicing their concerns are being silenced on the premise of "elitism" by white knights. I've already stated that the process of learning something is exactly the same when learning something bad or good, it is only when you put what you learned into practice that the efficiency becomes visible. Why learn something sub-optimal when you can just start learning something optimal from the start. > > There is absolutely no difference in using a qt/sc/ln rotation in a high speed raid clear or in a casual run with the difference being how serious you're taking the raid. The order in which you're activating skills stays exactly the same with the only difference maybe being how quickly you're going through the motions to try and maximize your damage. You can try and squeeze that sixth F1 burst on your condi ps every single time, or just let it slide and stick with an easy 5 F1 bursts even if quickness and alacrity up time is sufficient for six bursts every time...sure you're doing less damage but it's still going to be a lot more then when you've learned a rotation that only has room for 3/4 F1 bursts. In the end, when you've learned an efficient rotation, the order in which you're activating your skills stays exactly the same every time so once you've learned that order it's quite easy to go at it a bit slower/easier to allow for a more casual experience. > > It's like i have to literally tell people that having fun and playing efficiently at the same time is quite possible. Like people think using an efficient rotation means fun gets kicked out the backdoor and can stay in the yard till people are done raiding. What is this, i don't even... You do sound like everything should indeed be optimized from the start. Which leads to only a few viable builds that everyone should play. Newsflash: playing the same build for a long time can get boring after some time. And perhaps it's better that there's new, perhaps not-so-optimized builds for peoples to try and have fun with when that time comes. Or people just quitting raiding (and perhaps the whole game) when it gets boring is a better option? Lots of Kitty's benchmarks do have flaws. But do we have any other more skilled peoples who test various builds' efficiency and post their results to public? qT doesn't do that. SC doesn't do that. For example, search youtube for power ranger or soulbeast longbow/axe+axe benchmark and see if anyone else has tried that weapon combo. Yet Kitty's pulled 25k benchmark on it and better players could clearly pull more. For power soulbeast greatsword/sword+axe, which is a rather popular power ranger weapon combo among the few people who bother with power ranger builds, there's even 1 benchmark. So, if Kitty didn't benchmark the possible alternatives, who would? > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > Good job! To help your case I'd like to suggest you trying to find some time and actually provide videos for some builds where you raid and kill bosses. So all the naysayers can move away to their groups and leave people actually interested in your builds and less stressful gaming read this thread without need to go through all the unnecessary and unjustified elitism here. Kitty will once she has time to raid again, but first Kitty needs to finish her benchmarks. For gameplay vids, Kitty has separate, older channel. https://www.youtube.com/user/kittysamart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrostDraco.8306 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 https://imgur.com/L2m0tVA Lmao top dps? Not even close. Btw heres a log for condition mesmer (not mirage). Build isnt even recommended for VG due to the loss of phantasms, but i do almost twice your boss dps. You kinda got carried m8ty. https://www.gw2raidar.com/encounter/DerivedSymbolsPreferringCorrectingReduced Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKitty.6120 Posted October 24, 2017 Author Share Posted October 24, 2017 > @FrostDraco.8306 said: > https://imgur.com/L2m0tVA > > Lmao top dps? Not even close. You realize that Kitty was playing quickness-support/condi-DPS firebrand on that one? Which obviously means that Kitty had to take a decent toll on personal DPS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrostDraco.8306 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 > @LadyKitty.6120 said: > > @FrostDraco.8306 said: > > https://imgur.com/L2m0tVA > > > > Lmao top dps? Not even close. > > You realize that Kitty was playing quickness-support/condi-DPS firebrand on that one? Which obviously means that Kitty had to take a decent toll on personal DPS. I also realize you could have done similar dps playing chrono, and bringing alacrity AND quickness AND distorts. But thats none of my business -sips tea-. If you look at that log, you can see a chrono who does slightly worse dps than you, but is more useful to his team. And yes, it was a pug run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verenhimo.3296 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 > @LadyKitty.6120 said: > > @Verenhimo.3296 said: > > Please go do a clear with any level of LI pug and refuse to take the 6 meta supports, record it and get back to me how that works for you. > > Kitty hasn't got a chance to do that with LI-groups 'cause "metasupport or gtfo", but with some nabby squad she actually got quite close to that once. We only had tank chrono as metasupport, rest out of meta. And we also had to carry a bad ranger but whatever. E: Since it doesn't show video's title in embedded vids here, Kitty clarifies that she plays quickness-support/condi-DPS firebrand in the video below. > > > > > @cat.8975 said: > > Good players can use trash builds and sort of get away with it. > > Bad players need good builds if they want reasonable results. > > > > Imagine you have two players. Player A can hit 95% of a benchmark, while player B can only hit 65%. If you give both of them a build that is 20% weaker, then you end up with someone playing at 76% effectiveness, and someone playing at **52%**. You should always take every little gain you can get, and builds are a big part of that. > > Kitty didn't have time to reply to this properly earlier as she was at work. This imagination doesn't take into consideration that a weaker build might be a lot easier to learn, like is case with some of Kitty's benchmarks. If player B hits 82% of weaker build's benchmark, that's already a slight improvement to damage. Of course it was vale guardian, the most undertuned boss, next up you'll be telling me snowflake builds can be useful because they can do literal golem bosses like MO. People have played x10 druids on VG, infact I can think of many MANY bad x10 combos that've done vg for fun runs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarasicodissa.7084 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 @ people talking about target audience: As I and many others mentioned previously, this is gonna do even MORE HARM to newbie players than it does to seasoned veterans. Good player will immediately notice that something is way off and just dismiss these benchmarks, because he'll learn nothing useful from them. Newbie might be tricked into thinking these will have better results for him and actually pursue it, instead of learning straight up from the best source - qT or SC. When this noobie is gonna try to find a solid raid run, he's either gonna get kicked immediately or after people observe his horrible performance (partly due to bad build, partly due to bad rotation, both of which he got from these "benchmarks"). Or worse yet, he's gonna find a group of 9 similar people (all running off-meta builds from Kitty) who will accept him and proceed to struggle for hours on a single boss without realising what they're doing wrong. If you're looking into an easy foolproof way to play a solid DPS build efficiently (even if not as good as qT), there are some sources, but Kitty ain't one of them. Some time ago I came across a videoguide (somebody could dig it up perhaps?) from some DnT member, who suggested a power daredevil build to new players, including important tips and tricks as well as solid ingame footage demonstrating all those things in practice. So yes, there are sources, which will teach you easy starter tips for DPS in raids, but it's best to learn from good players who know what they're talking about, not learn bad rotations and further embed your mistakes. Edit: I've found it. It's slightly outdated now, but still offers some very useful advice. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beTkRWJjMp4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bast Bow.2958 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 Hey Kitty! Thanks for all the work! It’s always nice seeing people contributing to the game. To each their own if they want to follow or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKitty.6120 Posted October 24, 2017 Author Share Posted October 24, 2017 > @Verenhimo.3296 said: > Of course it was vale guardian, the most undertuned boss, next up you'll be telling me snowflake builds can be useful because they can do literal golem bosses like MO. > > People have played x10 druids on VG, infact I can think of many MANY bad x10 combos that've done vg for fun runs. Well, snowflake builds can be useful at first 3 W4 bosses since they are easy, lots of them are better than meta at Deimos (if doing the popular "tank and oil kiter at edge, hand kiter at other edge and rest at mid) 'cause Deimos tends to favour ranged builds and...just how many qT meta builds we have currently that don't get seriously nerfed DPS-wise when playing from distance? 2, condi firebrand and condiweaver. And apparently the only other DPS-build qT lists as meta on that boss is power DH, which does get some nasty DPS-nerf at range. At VG, it doesn't matter much which builds peoples bring as long as there's a tank, enough heals to keep ppls alive and people do the mechanics properly (the only mechanic complicating the fight is greens and greens aren't a difficult mechanic. Moving between sectors is on tank's responsibility and Kitty doesn't feel like it should receive extra mention). At Gors, the need for DPS support is high compared to some others, but can be done without a single metabuild and with mediocre DPS builds as long as there's enough alternative DPS support and people know wtf they are doing. Sab doesn't differ much from DPS-golem from support's and DPSer's perspective. Can be done without meta as long as there's some alternative DPS support, cannonkillers know what they're doing and people bring enough CC for Knuckles. Sloth isn't heavy DPS check boss, moves slowly and as long as the mechanics are dealt with (in other words, reflects, condicleanse and pulling in the slubs), it doesn't matter much which builds are brought as long as there's enough heals and DPS. Matthias has very low DPS check (50k ish enough) and as long as the mechanics are dealt with accordingly, it doesn't really matter what builds are brought as long as there's enough heals and DPS. Escort...build requirements aren't worth mentioning. Keep Construct...possibly the worst boss for lots of alternative builds due to heavy need for burst damage. But then again, there's actually surprisingly many heavy-bursting power builds that just do weaker sustained DPS over longer fights and thus are generally shut out by metaists. Kitty can't say for Xera as she hasn't been to that boss yet (Xera pug trainings are super-rare on LFG and as a nice person, Kitty has done trainings one every boss 'til she's felt confident enough for NA exp squads. On EU, Kitty's LI alone would prevent her doing anything above escort, VG and Cairn 'cause seriously, when Kitty visited EU for a week, 100+ LI for MO, Gors and Sam? Kitty's been doing those since she had a couple VG kills under her belt on NA. And before she even got first Cairn kill.) So, is it really so difficult to find a boss that snowflakes can do? Oh well, they've promised lots of snow on Thursday so guess Kitty can hide from your bloodlust among dem snowflakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunaire.9741 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 > @LadyKitty.6120 said: > > @Verenhimo.3296 said: > > Of course it was vale guardian, the most undertuned boss, next up you'll be telling me snowflake builds can be useful because they can do literal golem bosses like MO. > > > > People have played x10 druids on VG, infact I can think of many MANY bad x10 combos that've done vg for fun runs. > > Well, snowflake builds can be useful at first 3 W4 bosses since they are easy, lots of them are better than meta at Deimos (if doing the popular "tank and oil kiter at edge, hand kiter at other edge and rest at mid) 'cause Deimos tends to favour ranged builds and...just how many qT meta builds we have currently that don't get seriously nerfed DPS-wise when playing from distance? 2, condi firebrand and condiweaver. And apparently the only other DPS-build qT lists as meta on that boss is power DH, which does get some nasty DPS-nerf at range. > At VG, it doesn't matter much which builds peoples bring as long as there's a tank, enough heals to keep ppls alive and people do the mechanics properly (the only mechanic complicating the fight is greens and greens aren't a difficult mechanic. Moving between sectors is on tank's responsibility and Kitty doesn't feel like it should receive extra mention). > At Gors, the need for DPS support is high compared to some others, but can be done without a single metabuild and with mediocre DPS builds as long as there's enough alternative DPS support and people know kitten they are doing. > Sab doesn't differ much from DPS-golem from support's and DPSer's perspective. Can be done without meta as long as there's some alternative DPS support, cannonkillers know what they're doing and people bring enough CC for Knuckles. > Sloth isn't heavy DPS check boss, moves slowly and as long as the mechanics are dealt with (in other words, reflects, condicleanse and pulling in the slubs), it doesn't matter much which builds are brought as long as there's enough heals and DPS. > Matthias has very low DPS check (50k ish enough) and as long as the mechanics are dealt with accordingly, it doesn't really matter what builds are brought as long as there's enough heals and DPS. > Escort...build requirements aren't worth mentioning. > Keep Construct...possibly the worst boss for lots of alternative builds due to heavy need for burst damage. But then again, there's actually surprisingly many heavy-bursting power builds that just do weaker sustained DPS over longer fights and thus are generally shut out by metaists. > Kitty can't say for Xera as she hasn't been to that boss yet (Xera pug trainings are super-rare on LFG and as a nice person, Kitty has done trainings one every boss 'til she's felt confident enough for NA exp squads. On EU, Kitty's LI alone would prevent her doing anything above escort, VG and Cairn 'cause seriously, when Kitty visited EU for a week, 100+ LI for MO, Gors and Sam? Kitty's been doing those since she had a couple VG kills under her belt on NA. And before she even got first Cairn kill.) > > So, is it really so difficult to find a boss that snowflakes can do? Oh well, they've promised lots of snow on Thursday so guess Kitty can hide from your bloodlust among dem snowflakes. Thing is the better the DPS the less chance of a wipe as you finish bosses faster and skip mechanics like in center strat Xera. You can clear things with mediocre dps, increasing chance of mistakes and wipes. But why aim so low ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shard.4791 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 Nemesis was right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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