A few of my thoughts.

[Murdock.6547]

I have been sincerely thinking on necromancers issues, ways to solve them and of course pinning the blame for necros problems on arenanet.

 

But, frankly this hasnt gotten us anywhere. So I then turned to why on earth necro cannot be buffed.

 

And this is when it struck me. Necromancer is a truely unique and fantastic case. Let me explain...

 

The first thing that stands out as necromancer as a strength is you have unrivaled condi control. Not cleanse; CONTROL.

Transfers, conversions, and the most potent of all: epidemic.

 

Entire mechanics are managed easily by epi, some fights are arguably broken by it.

 

But for now lets focus on the gaining and sending of condis.

Ever wonder why we dont have many condi heavy fights? I feel its due to necros sending and transferring. Getting spored in sloth loads you with tons of dmg condi.. Its supposed to down you for failing. But necro gets MASSIVE dps spikes from eating spores. Its very powerful, and insanely fun.

You get to interact with mechanics in a unique way that is useful outside of negating. Youre actively turning slothasors own attacks against him.

[Murdock.6547]

Its for this reason that necro cannot have meaningful resistance access.

 

And im certain this is also why necro cannot have the highest dps baseline... Because then at fights where you can condi transfer its a total blowout. Why take another class?

[Zoltreez.6435]

sooo your saying we should stay as an unwanted trash class with 50000 missing mechanics that other classes have and outright abuse JUST because we are good in some realy few niche fights ?

 

this logic equals to the Devs logic when they said they don't want to give too much dmg to scourge because scourge has Strong support.........

 

Are you a dev by any chance ?

[Murdock.6547]

> @Zoltreez.6435 said:

> sooo your saying we should stay as an unwanted trash class with 50000 missing mechanics that other classes have and outright abuse JUST because we are good in some realy few niche fights ?

>

> this logic equals to the Devs logic when they said they don't want to give too much dmg to scourge because scourge has Strong support.........

>

> Are you a dev by any chance ?

 

No. But scourge does have stronger support than people realize.

[vicious.5683]

This thread is really idiotic. Please delete it.

[Murdock.6547]

Thank you for your insight.

[Aetatis.5418]

actually the thread isnt too bad.

 

the guy is right - just one flaw. the game is not loaded with such mechanics and can be avoided or abused in other ways too.

 

i also think necro shouldnt be "top" dps and breaking the charts. but i would like to see necro being more than an exeption in extreeeeeme situational content.

"wanted" in content is the keyword and in some cases even viable and not only tankiest on paper but in reality killed in 2sec anyway (3sec with a good dodge before a stun/immob-lock)

[Zoltreez.6435]

> @Murdock.6547 said:

> > @Zoltreez.6435 said:

> > sooo your saying we should stay as an unwanted trash class with 50000 missing mechanics that other classes have and outright abuse JUST because we are good in some realy few niche fights ?

> >

> > this logic equals to the Devs logic when they said they don't want to give too much dmg to scourge because scourge has Strong support.........

> >

> > Are you a dev by any chance ?

>

> Scourge does have stronger support than people realize.

 


 

Maybe after you stack like 3-5 scourges then yeah.....

[Murdock.6547]

> @Aetatis.5418 said:

> actually the thread isnt too bad.

>

> the guy is right - just one flaw. the game is not loaded with such mechanics and can be avoided or abused in other ways too.

>

 

Youre right, I tried to avoid stating the obvious, since anyone who knows necro knows that there are few mechanics in the entire game that necro can "break"

 

But also, since Ive already drawn ire expressing my thoughts I may as well keep at it.

 

There has been an extreme corruption of the words "viable" and "META"

META is an acronym that literally means "Most Effective/Efficient Tactic available"

Technically speaking in order to be meta in all fights something would have to be utterly broken and better than everything else. Chrono and ps war are this. Not druid, theyre frequently replaced by eles since their heals are weaker.

 

"Viable" is also twisted. Literally speaking, almost everything is viable. So long as a dps can output 10 to 15k in actual raids, it will not be a detriment to a clear.

 

[Maunzi.3764]

>Not druid, theyre frequently replaced by eles since their heals are weaker.

 

No, this actually very rarely happens at all. The only fight healing ele sees any sort of play is Matthias. The other fights simply do not have enough damage to the group, and the buffs druid gives vastly outscale the value of a healing ele.

 

This is why a ventari rev sees pretty much no play.

 

>"Viable" is also twisted. Literally speaking, almost everything is viable.

 

"Literally speaking" is sophistry. In a MMO setting, viable has a specific meaning, and "everything" is definitely not viable with that meaning. Sticking to the dictionary definition is pointless, as pointless as complaining that a car does not have horsepower because it "is not a horse".

 

You know what people in a MMO community mean when they use that word, so you should communicate properly. The meaning of words changes, and is often dependent on the community you're in. Pointing at the dictionary definition isn't helping your point.

 

>Scourge does have stronger support than people realize.

 

No, people realize the support of a scourge, it's just not good enough for raids in any meaningful capacity. Scourge gets worse the better the group gets, unlike every other support in the game, and there's really no helping that.

 

For raids:

Great support: Chrono, Druid, cPS Warrior

Acceptable-ish Support: Renegade, Firebrand, Stance Soulbeast

Bad support: Scourge, Herald

 

Good support professions offer value regardless of the quality of a group, a scourge only offers value if the group is bad.

[thrdeye.1028]

> @Murdock.6547 said:

> There has been an extreme corruption of the words "viable" and "META"

> META is an acronym that literally means "Most Effective/Efficient Tactic available"

 

That sounds like a backronym. "Meta" is typically short for "metagame." I wouldn't mention it, but you are making a pedantic argument based on a technicality so you should at least be technically correct.

 

Also, necro isn't the only class that has situational abilities. The stronger classes have their niches too.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

Yeah, "Meta" is short for "metagame." It's not an acronym.

 

"Metagame" uses the prefix "meta-" which means "over" or "beyond." "Metagame" means "over the game," referring to the level of the game that is not established in the actual rules.

[Zoltreez.6435]

> @Murdock.6547 said:

> So long as a dps can output 10 to 15k in actual raids, it will not be a detriment to a clear.

 

I wont say anything.....others will do it....

[thrdeye.1028]

> @Zoltreez.6435 said:

> > @Murdock.6547 said:

> > So long as a dps can output 10 to 15k in actual raids, it will not be a detriment to a clear.

>

> I wont say anything.....others will do it....

 

He's technically correct. You can't be detrimental to the group if the group didn't bring you in the first place.

[Murdock.6547]

This thread is interesting so far.

I wrote it in about an hour or so on my lunch break, and I admittedly didn't think much on my replies, I simply wanted to try and spread some semblance of positivity to offset the heavy amounts of naysaying and blatant anger about necromancer getting bugfixed. (again)

 

But whatever, I'm home now and I can type up something half meaningful now.

Scourge isn't bad.

 

It's damage isn't great in vacuum settings, but it will perform in real raid scenarios adequately enough to clear content. It has enough support, though this support is not an instant win button, to save allies from some failed mechanics.

It rewards good game knowledge through barriers, and rewards smart management of lifeforce.

I am actually quite glad that dhuumfire got removed from every single pulse of sand shroud. It meant that the only logical choice on any build was soul reaping, curses, scourge.

Now that it's dead, you can take whatever you please in place of soul reaping (or simply keep SR for the cooldown reduction). .. Of course this affected our dps hugely, but it is being looked at.

 

So again, and I'll keep saying it. Scourge is not bad. Anywhere that epidemic was taken before, scourge will still have a slot. Even if it did almost no damage outside of epi.

Which I will relent and say that taking a class for a singular skill is not great, but this is a worst case scenario, assuming it never gets better. Necromancer will always be a boon in some fights.

 

... It's almost 2 am and I'm tired though...

[Lily.1935]

> @Murdock.6547 said:

> I have been sincerely thinking on necromancers issues, ways to solve them and of course pinning the blame for necros problems on arenanet.

>

> But, frankly this hasnt gotten us anywhere. So I then turned to why on earth necro cannot be buffed.

>

> And this is when it struck me. Necromancer is a truely unique and fantastic case. Let me explain...

>

> The first thing that stands out as necromancer as a strength is you have unrivaled condi control. Not cleanse; CONTROL.

> Transfers, conversions, and the most potent of all: epidemic.

>

> Entire mechanics are managed easily by epi, some fights are arguably broken by it.

>

> But for now lets focus on the gaining and sending of condis.

> Ever wonder why we dont have many condi heavy fights? I feel its due to necros sending and transferring. Getting spored in sloth loads you with tons of dmg condi.. Its supposed to down you for failing. But necro gets MASSIVE dps spikes from eating spores. Its very powerful, and insanely fun.

> You get to interact with mechanics in a unique way that is useful outside of negating. Youre actively turning slothasors own attacks against him.

 

It's not unique at all. Yes necromancer transferring conditions is almost unique to necromancer, condition spreading is absolutely not. Condition spreading was actually a Mesmer ability back in gw1 and they were not restricted because of it.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

> @Lily.1935 said:

> > @Murdock.6547 said:

> > I have been sincerely thinking on necromancers issues, ways to solve them and of course pinning the blame for necros problems on arenanet.

> >

> > But, frankly this hasnt gotten us anywhere. So I then turned to why on earth necro cannot be buffed.

> >

> > And this is when it struck me. Necromancer is a truely unique and fantastic case. Let me explain...

> >

> > The first thing that stands out as necromancer as a strength is you have unrivaled condi control. Not cleanse; CONTROL.

> > Transfers, conversions, and the most potent of all: epidemic.

> >

> > Entire mechanics are managed easily by epi, some fights are arguably broken by it.

> >

> > But for now lets focus on the gaining and sending of condis.

> > Ever wonder why we dont have many condi heavy fights? I feel its due to necros sending and transferring. Getting spored in sloth loads you with tons of dmg condi.. Its supposed to down you for failing. But necro gets MASSIVE dps spikes from eating spores. Its very powerful, and insanely fun.

> > You get to interact with mechanics in a unique way that is useful outside of negating. Youre actively turning slothasors own attacks against him.

>

> It's not unique at all. Yes necromancer transferring conditions is almost unique to necromancer, condition spreading is absolutely not. Condition spreading was actually a Mesmer ability back in gw1 and they were not restricted because of it.

 

And Mesmers did it with a skill called https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Epidemic.

[Maunzi.3764]

> @Murdock.6547 said:

> It's damage isn't great in vacuum settings, but it will perform in real raid scenarios adequately enough to clear content.

 

But not adequately enough to be used, because it is far worse than every other option.

 

>It has enough support

 

It does not have enough support, and is completely outclassed by every other support build in the game. All support a scourge does is far weaker than the equivalent support of other classes, who bring far more on top of it.

* Barrier? Chrono brings complete damage immunity. Chrono also brings quickness AND Alacrity, on top of pulls, reflects, and much more.

* Might stacking? Warrior brings this, AND Empower Allies, AND banners

* Healing with Transfusion? Druid brings stronger healing, AND Grace of the Land AND Spirits AND Spotter

 

Even compared to Firebrand or Renegade Scourge support loses in every metric. By far.

So no, it does not have enough support in PVE.

 

> It rewards good game knowledge through barriers, and rewards smart management of lifeforce.

 

This is false. If someone has good game knowledge, they would be using a Chrono instead, and use their knowledge on the Chrono to protect the raid much, much better.

Good game knowledge means making good choices, and if someone is good enough to properly use barriers, then using a Chrono instead is an objectively superior choice.

 

You can repeat that this is not so as much as you want, but the simple fact is that ignoring damage is better than reducing damage slightly.

[Murdock.6547]

There has been an encounter in the past that has a mechanic which ignores distortion, though its also a mechanic that oneshots players for failing it.

I want so badly to call distortion absurdly powerful for how often it can be used at no real cost.. but that point is far from moot.

Instead I'll relent some, and say that in the current gamestate distortion is better, simply because there is more value in nullifying instant huge spikes than there is in what barrier can do.

 

I want to at least bring to light that chronomancer and necromancer have two different slots. You'd always take two chronotanks, but you wouldn't put it in a dps slot.

Just as druid and necromancer have different slots.

Necro is not a true dps, nor is it a true support. It's a hybridization .. and yes, currently it lacks in the dps department. But not nearly enough to be thrown out in the cold as everyone keeps saying.

 

And the damage problem has been noted by the devs, and will be addressed.

Though, I do actually understand the cynicism there considering the track record for necromancer and some of the bizarre buffs it has gotten in the past that I have yet to make sense of.

 

There has been a comp floating about that does away with the second chrono and a second druid, instead opting to have a firebrand and renegade.

In theory even the damage lost from not having spotter or spirits is negated by having a semi-damaging alacrity and quickness bot.

 

Adding a scourge to that could soften a few blows with barrier while keeping a higher overall group dps than the mirror comp.

.. but this is all speculation, and I've yet to be able to test it with my group (as seemingly no one has a renegade), and frankly in its current state of damage, it wouldn't be much of a gain to have a scourge around.

I'll keep holding on to the "buffs incoming" ship and hope it doesn't sink.

 

 

EDIT: Also, scourge support is supposed to be able to affect 10 targets, while currently that does not work, once it does it will be a much needed boon to necro.

As just having a single necromancer (either full blood support, or support dps) will be able to apply its benefits, be that condi clearing/conversion, or barriers.

I doubt necro will be a worthwhile mightbot as warrior has 600 range vs necromancer's 240. There's simply no contest, even with 10 targets it's useless if half of your targets are too far by being on the other side of a large hitbox.