Mandatory Trait Line ?

[RedSPINE.7845]

Hello.

I only play engineer in GW2 so I was wondering about other professions. As an engineer, nearly each build takes the Alchemy trait line, and most of them use the same configuration : Protection Injection - Self-Regulated Defense - HGH, just because Elixir S also seems mandatory.

Are other classes stuck in such a way-to-build as engineers ? I do think it's a problem because if clearly kills diversity.

[choovanski.5462]

warrior has defense, engi has alchemy, I think it's virtues for guardian- but yeah, I think every class has one

 

tbh, it does limit build diversity, but I don't think it's a big issue. these are all sustain lines, and sustain is super important for PvP. so it's no surprise the best sustain line for each class is used in all of their PvP builds. the only way to really solve this is to have a second equally viable sustain line, but that can cause issues if the class takes both lines (too tanky) so it's hard to deal w.

 

I feel like the bigger build diversity issue is classes like warrior. it's got two mandatory trait lines, one OP specialisation and one overnerfed specialisation (which I love! lol). Discipline, Defense, SpellBreaker is literally the only way to go for warrior.

 

full counter nerfs, baseline fast hands, and Berserk counting as a stage 3 burst would sort that class out tho. heck knows if anet will ever bother to implement the changes tho

[Jelzouki.4128]

Necros take soul reaping pretty much all of the time.

[NotASmurf.1725]

Revenant may be the only prof that doesn't have a mandatory one, unless you consider the Herald elite spec to be like that which is kinda true now.

 

Warriors have it worse, they have 2. Thieves kinda have 2 too, but sometimes dropping deadly arts for acro is possible tho suboptimal.

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

Ranger's is definitely Wilderness Survival, without it and at least a couple of survival skills, there's no condition removal. Unless you take Druid, then you can possibly get away without it, but WS is still likely used on Druid as well.

[Impact.2780]

Defining viable would be difficult, so instead of defining "mandatory" as what is required to make a build viable, let's define "mandatory" as, "has been used in multiple consecutive meta builds for that respective class,"

 

Elementalist

Through the celestial support meta, tempest auramancer meta (throughout which even popular non-meta builds such as Scepter/Focus used it), and now with weaver builds coming out, **Water**. Although for the first time there is a popular build in Sword/Focus which is Air/Arcane/Weaver, but it is not meta nor do I think it will be.

 

Engineer

**Alchemy** since the changes prior to HoT which forced engineer to take more cleanses because conditions which always did it in so badly, became more abundant.

 

Guardian

Throughout its bunker support meta until it was removed from meta entirely by shoutbow and later returned as a damage-dealer with hammer+scepter/focus, and today in Firebrand, **Virtues**.

 

Mesmer

Has no truly mandatory line if we go off of the above definition, because with every major change that alters the meta build for Mesmer, the staple trait line (what you would have considered mandatory) changes. For the longest time, the staple was Dueling, and the build did not change (excluding trait choice variants between staff and sword/torch builds). Changes prior to HoT changed this and Inspiration was a must, which actually persisted with the release of HoT so that was arguably mandatory there. Again, however, a major change with Mirage coming out sees Inspiration no longer required.

 

Necro

As terrormancer, and for the majority of the time between HoT and PoF (there was a popular "variant" in Spite/Curses/Reaper), and of course still, now, **Soul Reaping**.

 

Ranger

Lol.

 

Revenant

**Herald**. Yes, it's an elite spec, but it was released at the same time as the class itself, so we've never seen any other trait line have the chance to be "mandatory." Herald has now persisted through HoT and into PoF.

 

Thief

**Trickery** (since 2013?), due to the well known fact that ANet balances around the idea that thieves will choose this trait line. It was admitted as much on their wiki page which mistakenly showed the BASE cooldown of Dead Eye's Mark as 21.75s (what it is with Trickery and Sleight of Hand).

Thief may have a second mandatory trait line in Deadly Arts since meta changes brought about the 30/0/10/0/30 panic strike build which won out against 10/30/0/0/30 with the changes prior to HoT which saw Executioner moved from CS to DA, and of course the ability to take three full trait lines (6/0/6/0/6). Reasons for taking it have changed since then with the buff to Improvisation. It is arguable that Improvisation is not required to be viable, but the significant benefit of it and consequences in thief v thief where both teams have a thief, and the fact that Mug in DA has been meta forever, long before Improvisation, should indeed mark **Deadly Arts** as mandatory in accordance with the above definition.

 

Warrior

Hambow, Shoutbow, and still today, **Discipline** for Fast Hands.

 

 

 

[Chaith.8256]

Herald IS the sustain line that Revenants are glued to.

Glint Heal

[Abelisk.4527]

For Guardian it is actually Valor, but that isn't the case anymore since Firebrand offers the same level of sustain. The symbolic build does not run Virtues and Bunk FB does not necessarily need Virtues--it could take Valor. My power FB build uses Radiance/Honor.

 

For Ele it's definitely Water, that is their main source of condi cleanse.

 

For Revenant I'll have to say Herald too for now, core Rev and Renegade are blatantly undertuned.

 

For Warr, Defense because of DP and Balanced Stance.

 

Necromancer is definitely Soul Reaping.

 

Thief is probably Trickery but maybe there's a DE build that relies on stealth rather than init and trades enough for what Trickery offers.

 

For Engi it's alchemy--without it you'd drop like a fly.

 

Mesmer doesn't really have one, Ranger doesn't either.

 

 

[Impact.2780]

> @Abelisk.4527 said:

> For Guardian it is actually Valor, but that isn't the case anymore since Firebrand offers the same level of sustain. The symbolic build does not run Virtues and Bunk FB does not necessarily need Virtues--it could take Valor. My power FB build uses Radiance/Honor.

>

Firebrand bunker takes Virtues. Core hammer takes virtues, and always has. Even outside of meta builds, DH took virtues. Menders symbol DH took virtues.

Valor is taken with meditations, and meditation guard (AKA hammer guard, medi-trap DH) has always taken virtues.

 

As for warrior, it has indeed always been Discipline and Defense. Now that I think about it, Cleansing Ire is a Defense trait, which was key for hambow and shoutbow's self-cleanse.

[Chaith.8256]

> @Impact.2780 said:

> > @Abelisk.4527 said:

> > For Guardian it is actually Valor, but that isn't the case anymore since Firebrand offers the same level of sustain. The symbolic build does not run Virtues and Bunk FB does not necessarily need Virtues--it could take Valor. My power FB build uses Radiance/Honor.

> >

> Firebrand bunker takes Virtues. Core hammer takes virtues, and always has. Even outside of meta builds, DH took virtues. Menders symbol DH took virtues.

> Valor is taken with meditations, and meditation guard (AKA hammer guard, medi-trap DH) has always taken virtues.

>

> As for warrior, it has indeed always been Discipline and Defense. Now that I think about it, Cleansing Ire is a Defense trait, which was key for hambow and shoutbow's self-cleanse.

 

Virtues not necessary for firebrand at all whatsoever, even support. We're talking about must-slot traitlines no matter what role or build within that profession.

[choovanski.5462]

> @Impact.2780 said:

> > @Abelisk.4527 said:

> > For Guardian it is actually Valor, but that isn't the case anymore since Firebrand offers the same level of sustain. The symbolic build does not run Virtues and Bunk FB does not necessarily need Virtues--it could take Valor. My power FB build uses Radiance/Honor.

> >

> Firebrand bunker takes Virtues. Core hammer takes virtues, and always has. Even outside of meta builds, DH took virtues. Menders symbol DH took virtues.

> Valor is taken with meditations, and meditation guard (AKA hammer guard, medi-trap DH) has always taken virtues.

>

> As for warrior, it has indeed always been Discipline and Defense. Now that I think about it, Cleansing Ire is a Defense trait, which was key for hambow and shoutbow's self-cleanse.

 

yeah, warrior has always got the short end of the stick. two mandatory lines. devs won’t ever concede to the warrior forums pleas for baseline fast hands tho.

 

rn, it’s basically 3 mandatory lines with how OP spellbreaker is. FC needs nerfs, but leave core alone hot dang.

[Impact.2780]

> @Chaith.8256 said:

> > @Impact.2780 said:

> > > @Abelisk.4527 said:

> > > For Guardian it is actually Valor, but that isn't the case anymore since Firebrand offers the same level of sustain. The symbolic build does not run Virtues and Bunk FB does not necessarily need Virtues--it could take Valor. My power FB build uses Radiance/Honor.

> > >

> > Firebrand bunker takes Virtues. Core hammer takes virtues, and always has. Even outside of meta builds, DH took virtues. Menders symbol DH took virtues.

> > Valor is taken with meditations, and meditation guard (AKA hammer guard, medi-trap DH) has always taken virtues.

> >

> > As for warrior, it has indeed always been Discipline and Defense. Now that I think about it, Cleansing Ire is a Defense trait, which was key for hambow and shoutbow's self-cleanse.

>

> Virtues not necessary for firebrand at all whatsoever, even support. We're talking about must-slot traitlines no matter what role or build within that profession.

 

Perhaps, but I'm not addressing any issue of viability. That presents too many variables and would quite possibly lead to a thread-derail. So far virtues is heavily used by Firebrand because it is believed by the vast majority including those whose opinion is viewed more highly due to their past achievements/contributions with respect to that particular class, to be optimal.

 

Whether a potentially viable variant used by a minority is sufficient to establish that a trait line is no longer mandatory in terms of meta is a completely different question and separate issue. There are many ways you can argue yes or no in this, which is why I provided a definition for "mandatory" for the context of my response. This of course does not mean everyone must adopt the definition I used in the forming of their own opinions, it is just a tool by which I came to mine. To take an opinion out of context renders it an inaccurate account.

[Chaith.8256]

> @Impact.2780 said:

> > @Chaith.8256 said:

> > > @Impact.2780 said:

> > > > @Abelisk.4527 said:

> > > > For Guardian it is actually Valor, but that isn't the case anymore since Firebrand offers the same level of sustain. The symbolic build does not run Virtues and Bunk FB does not necessarily need Virtues--it could take Valor. My power FB build uses Radiance/Honor.

> > > >

> > > Firebrand bunker takes Virtues. Core hammer takes virtues, and always has. Even outside of meta builds, DH took virtues. Menders symbol DH took virtues.

> > > Valor is taken with meditations, and meditation guard (AKA hammer guard, medi-trap DH) has always taken virtues.

> > >

> > > As for warrior, it has indeed always been Discipline and Defense. Now that I think about it, Cleansing Ire is a Defense trait, which was key for hambow and shoutbow's self-cleanse.

> >

> > Virtues not necessary for firebrand at all whatsoever, even support. We're talking about must-slot traitlines no matter what role or build within that profession.

>

> Perhaps, but I'm not addressing any issue of viability. That presents too many variables and would quite possibly lead to a thread-derail. So far virtues is heavily used by Firebrand because it is believed by the vast majority including those whose opinion is viewed more highly due to their past achievements/contributions with respect to that particular class, to be optimal.

>

> Whether a potentially viable variant used by a minority is sufficient to establish that a trait line is no longer mandatory in terms of meta is a completely different question and separate issue. There are many ways you can argue yes or no in this, which is why I provided a definition for "mandatory" for the context of my response. This of course does not mean everyone must adopt the definition I used in the forming of their own opinions, it is just a tool by which I came to mine. To take an opinion out of context renders it an inaccurate account.

 

Guardian doesn't have must-have traitlines like you were suggesting. Not a thread derail.. and discussing why a traitline is mandatory or not, hardly a thread derail imo. As for your comments about 'potentially viable variant used by a minority' and talk about sharing the opinions of notable Firebrand players, I just think you are out of touch with the evolution on what's now getting used by great Firebrands.

 

Arken's solo queue hybrid support/power damage Firebrand is Radiance & Honor.

 

Moobs conquest full support Firebrand is Valor & Honor. Very good build, very high personal survivability and support, something like this:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQNAneWn8ABNCjtCBeDBkCjlECDrBkBSB7B0DaD9qAEAOAA-jpQXABKWGAg9HAA

 

Core Guard and DH are in need of Virtues traitline, but Firebrand while becoming stronger by taking Virtues, gains a kind of redundant strength when they can increase personal survivability better.

 

The reason for ditching virtues specifically in the full support variant is because your personal survivability with Virtues is too low - you get focused and killed easier than the Scourges you're trying to protect when your tomes are down.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

> @choovanski.5462 said:

> > @Impact.2780 said:

> > > @Abelisk.4527 said:

> > > For Guardian it is actually Valor, but that isn't the case anymore since Firebrand offers the same level of sustain. The symbolic build does not run Virtues and Bunk FB does not necessarily need Virtues--it could take Valor. My power FB build uses Radiance/Honor.

> > >

> > Firebrand bunker takes Virtues. Core hammer takes virtues, and always has. Even outside of meta builds, DH took virtues. Menders symbol DH took virtues.

> > Valor is taken with meditations, and meditation guard (AKA hammer guard, medi-trap DH) has always taken virtues.

> >

> > As for warrior, it has indeed always been Discipline and Defense. Now that I think about it, Cleansing Ire is a Defense trait, which was key for hambow and shoutbow's self-cleanse.

>

> yeah, warrior has always got the short end of the stick. two mandatory lines. devs won’t ever concede to the warrior forums pleas for baseline fast hands tho.

>

> rn, it’s basically 3 mandatory lines with how OP spellbreaker is. FC needs nerfs, but leave core alone hot dang.

 

They can't baseline Fast Hands because weapon swap is a (mostly) universal mechanic. If Warrior was the only profession that could, then yes, it would be easy, but 7/9 professions can.

 

It would be like baselining Natural Vigor. Dodges are a universal mechanic. You can't have one profession where it works differently just because. Having a trait modify it is how it needs to happen.

[Mikeskies.1536]

> @choovanski.5462 said:

> > @Impact.2780 said:

> > > @Abelisk.4527 said:

> > > For Guardian it is actually Valor, but that isn't the case anymore since Firebrand offers the same level of sustain. The symbolic build does not run Virtues and Bunk FB does not necessarily need Virtues--it could take Valor. My power FB build uses Radiance/Honor.

> > >

> > Firebrand bunker takes Virtues. Core hammer takes virtues, and always has. Even outside of meta builds, DH took virtues. Menders symbol DH took virtues.

> > Valor is taken with meditations, and meditation guard (AKA hammer guard, medi-trap DH) has always taken virtues.

> >

> > As for warrior, it has indeed always been Discipline and Defense. Now that I think about it, Cleansing Ire is a Defense trait, which was key for hambow and shoutbow's self-cleanse.

>

> yeah, warrior has always got the short end of the stick. two mandatory lines. devs won’t ever concede to the warrior forums pleas for baseline fast hands tho.

>

> rn, it’s basically 3 mandatory lines with how OP spellbreaker is. FC needs nerfs, but leave core alone hot dang.

 

I mean, I was Platinum last season as Strength, Discipline, Spelbreaker, running DD / Greatsword, with only Featherfoot Grace as a resistance source and with no Endure Pain. Only really struggled when there was more than one Scourge. There are other ways to play at least up to Platinum level.

[Jeknar.6184]

> @choovanski.5462 said:

> Discipline, Defense, SpellBreaker is literally the only way to go for warrior.

 

Strenght/Defense/Discipline MMR Warrior would like to have a chat with you. It's almost as good as Spellbreaker in damage potential, and while it don't have lulcounter and No-Fun-Zone, it have a bigger sustain through Might Makes Right and multiple dodges that deal unblockable damage.

 

But yeah, Discipline and Defense are basically Mandatory... You could problably try to squeeze Strenght instead of Discipline for Spellbreaker but I don't think it would be as good as Dis/Def/SB.

[choovanski.5462]

@"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" engineer doesn't even have a weapon swap, ele has four elements. I can't see why warrior having baseline fast hands is so different. warrior has been built around 5 sec weapon swap, and it's been mandatory in PvP builds forever. it's like making shatter on mesmer baseline, it just makes sense for the class.

 

@"Mikeskies.1536" grats on the climb dude. I'm playing Berserker (didn't buy PoF) and it does just fine too. off meta builds can work in ranked/unranked. but that's because we can play, and the average gw2 player is pretty ehhhhh... so outplaying skill spam on an off meta build is like really doable. you see streamers do it all the time.

 

but there's no denying Def/Dis/SpellBreaker is straight up better. it's undeniable, especially in actual 5v5. there is just no reason to have a warrior do anything else. it's just got more sustain and the damage is still there. it's the sidenode pick. there is no reason to go for any other build.

 

when SpellBreaker gets nerfed, defense is going to be much more attractive. SpellBreaker being so overtuned is the reason you can drop defense without doing full yolo. but it's just better to take defense and be the beefy boy

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

> @choovanski.5462 said:

> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" engineer doesn't even have a weapon swap, ele has four elements. I can't see why warrior having baseline fast hands is so different. warrior has been built around 5 sec weapon swap, and it's been mandatory in PvP builds forever. it's like making shatter on mesmer baseline, it just makes sense for the class.

Because to baseline Fast Hands for Warrior, you would also have to baseline Fast Hands for Guardian, Revenant, Ranger, Thief, Mesmer, and Necromancer. Making Shatter on Mesmer baseline is different because only Mesmers have shatters to begin with. It's explicitly a Mesmer mechanic.

 

Weapon Swap, however, is considered a universal mechanic (as are Endurance/dodges, and reviving/finishing). Universal mechanics work the same regardless of profession at the base level, but they can be modified by traits or runes. To modify weapon swap "just because you're a warrior" and not because of a trait just doesn't work. Elementalists and Engineers don't get weapon swap at all, true. Instead of modifying a universal mechanic, they just don't have it.

 

Does it suck for Warriors? Yeah, it does, but there's literally no other option that works.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

Engie is unfortunately completely reliant on passive auto defenses to not die in PvP. If you don't take the elixir shrinks you get deleted by just auto attacks alone.

 

 

[Majirah.5089]

> @Impact.2780 said:

> Defining viable would be difficult, so instead of defining "mandatory" as what is required to make a build viable, let's define "mandatory" as, "has been used in multiple consecutive meta builds for that respective class,"

>

> Elementalist

> Through the celestial support meta, tempest auramancer meta (throughout which even popular non-meta builds such as Scepter/Focus used it), and now with weaver builds coming out, **Water**. Although for the first time there is a popular build in Sword/Focus which is Air/Arcane/Weaver, but it is not meta nor do I think it will be.

>

> Engineer

> **Alchemy** since the changes prior to HoT which forced engineer to take more cleanses because conditions which always did it in so badly, became more abundant.

>

> Guardian

> Throughout its bunker support meta until it was removed from meta entirely by shoutbow and later returned as a damage-dealer with hammer+scepter/focus, and today in Firebrand, **Virtues**.

>

> Mesmer

> Has no truly mandatory line if we go off of the above definition, because with every major change that alters the meta build for Mesmer, the staple trait line (what you would have considered mandatory) changes. For the longest time, the staple was Dueling, and the build did not change (excluding trait choice variants between staff and sword/torch builds). Changes prior to HoT changed this and Inspiration was a must, which actually persisted with the release of HoT so that was arguably mandatory there. Again, however, a major change with Mirage coming out sees Inspiration no longer required.

>

> Necro

> As terrormancer, and for the majority of the time between HoT and PoF (there was a popular "variant" in Spite/Curses/Reaper), and of course still, now, **Soul Reaping**.

>

> Ranger

> Lol.

>

> Revenant

> **Herald**. Yes, it's an elite spec, but it was released at the same time as the class itself, so we've never seen any other trait line have the chance to be "mandatory." Herald has now persisted through HoT and into PoF.

>

> Thief

> **Trickery** (since 2013?), due to the well known fact that ANet balances around the idea that thieves will choose this trait line. It was admitted as much on their wiki page which mistakenly showed the BASE cooldown of Dead Eye's Mark as 21.75s (what it is with Trickery and Sleight of Hand).

> Thief may have a second mandatory trait line in Deadly Arts since meta changes brought about the 30/0/10/0/30 panic strike build which won out against 10/30/0/0/30 with the changes prior to HoT which saw Executioner moved from CS to DA, and of course the ability to take three full trait lines (6/0/6/0/6). Reasons for taking it have changed since then with the buff to Improvisation. It is arguable that Improvisation is not required to be viable, but the significant benefit of it and consequences in thief v thief where both teams have a thief, and the fact that Mug in DA has been meta forever, long before Improvisation, should indeed mark **Deadly Arts** as mandatory in accordance with the above definition.

>

> Warrior

> Hambow, Shoutbow, and still today, **Discipline** for Fast Hands.

>

>

>

 

I agree that trickery is mandatory for thieves. Between extra initiative and buffs to steal/mark it is a must for any build in my opinion.

 

I also somewhat agree with deadly arts only because I use it in all of my thief builds as well. Though I don't feel as strongly about it.

[Chaith.8256]

> @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> Engie is unfortunately completely reliant on passive auto defenses to not die in PvP. If you don't take the elixir shrinks you get deleted by just auto attacks alone.

>

>

 

Yup, pretty much a result of core Engi and Holosmith having pretty low active defense (evades, blocks, teleports, stealth) outside of Elixir S, Passive S, and Toss Elixir S. but that's just the class design.

[Hiki.9310]

I wish the things that make these trait lines mandatory just got made part of the class.

[Lighter.5631]

sadly, warrior has two

[Alatar.7364]

Trickery, just.... Trickery.

[Turk.5460]

> @Lighter.5631 said:

> sadly, warrior has two

 

Warrior has ones that are hard to choose between, but none that are _"mandatory in all effective builds"_. It may seem mandatory if you are always building with the expectation that you don't have a team, but PvP is team oriented.

 

Not sure why people are mentioning Deadly Arts, that is in no way mandatory, and many builds and playstyles perform worse when that is chosen over Acro. (Not everything is D/P Daredevil, guys)