Dadnir.5038 Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 > @Aegnor.6123 said: > Well, hi guys. > > I'm quite happy about your comments, but I think we drifted away from my intended Question. > > I didn't want to talk about the general balance discussion, I wanted to talk about your impressions of the class in the last 5 years. > Did you feel Necros were really suited for PvE? I'm talking not about open world or story line, I'm talking about the endcontent we were given by A-Net and the reasons why Necro was never really able to compete there, especially in raid. I try to understand what A-Net tried to reach with this class as they transferred it from GW1 und during the last years. > > I love my Necromancer and I still main it, regardless I'm playing other classes to generate money or do the endcontent. That is what bothers me the most. I have every class on 80, equipped and played them and every class (yes engi as well) feels more rewarding in the endcontent. > > I just don't get what A-Net thinks they did with this class. Well, in the 3 first years, PvE was all about blast, mobility, power damage and usefull fields (smoke fields and fire fields mainly). 4 things that the necromancer don't do very well. In the last 2 years, the priorities shifted a bit and changed to all about offensive support and dps. And again, the necromancer wasn't fit for it. However, we can see that anet tried to bend the environment and mechanisms so that the necromancer could close the wide gap it have with other professions. They even designed high level fractal in such a way that it became the holy land of corruptions. The problem is that anet is extremly studborn/conceited in it's design of the necromancer and even with all the goodwill of the world they won't be able to make him valuable in PvE without changing a few thing in it's "design". Like I said again and again, anet push really hard so that corrupting boons is the offensive support of the necromancer. However, PvE is not designed for that and even if it was, mesmers that remove boons as they breath with a lot of support on top of that make this role useless. You can't even begin to imagine how fed up I am with all these extra boons corruption that they put on necromancer's skill these last 2 years to show up their good will to give us offensive support. The devs need to open their eyes, this is not gonna work! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 Dadnir fractals is considered pve, so you should define pve as raid, because with scourge you can corrupt condis and turn them into boons much easier than before which required well of power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mazut.4296 Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 > @mygamingid.5816 said: > Stop confusing golem DPS charts with PvE. Necro is great in PvE, but Raid is solely a DPS check (nothing else), and Necro has a lot of non-DPS utility. You can’t ignore that utility in all other PvE, WvW, and PvP gameplay, so Necro is never going to be top DPS spec without a bug/exploit. Necro weapons (not traits) need a buff, I think everyone agrees on that. Regardless, they offer enough DPS to handle any raid boss and it’s just the toxic community that’s keeping them out of raids. Mostly agree, however Necro (both Reaper and Scourge) work great in raids. It's dps check first week after the new wing release, after that you can finish every boss with any profession you can play decently! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nord.1492 Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 > @Dadnir.5038 said: > > It's understandable that the necromancer's community is losing patience but it's really wrong to say that anet gave up necromancer or don't care about it. In fact they are probably the only one that still support "their" necromancer even if he fail at proving it's worse while the players want something that is different and that they are sure that it will fit in the game. > Thank you sir. Hope youre right. We will see next patch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 > @Axl.8924 said: > Dadnir fractals is considered pve, so you should define pve as raid, because with scourge you can corrupt condis and turn them into boons much easier than before which required well of power. He ask about PvE end game, technically fractals are PvE mid game not end game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoltreez.6435 Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 > @Dadnir.5038 said: > > Really wrong to say that anet gave up necromancer or don't care about it. 5.....FIVE years of being UNWANTED not needed and kicked/removed from everything that is High end and Serious...... so atm until they don't prove it other wise.... its not WRONG , its a damn Fact they don't give 2 kitten about the state of Necros...... Don't make me pull out the Book of thousands of ignored Necro suggestions from the old forums either....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 > @Zoltreez.6435 said: > > @Dadnir.5038 said: > > > > Really wrong to say that anet gave up necromancer or don't care about it. > > 5.....FIVE years of being UNWANTED not needed and kicked/removed from everything that is High end and Serious...... > > so atm until they don't prove it other wise.... its not WRONG , its a kitten Fact they don't give 2 kitten about the state of Necros...... > > Don't make me pull out the Book of thousands of ignored Necro suggestions from the old forums either....... No, the point is that you do not understand what I'm saying, you just take the sentence and rage. Anet envision the necromancer in a very certain way. They have a clear understanding of what **their** necromancer have to be and they want it to succeed. The fact is that this view is successfull in WvW. You could even say that it's overly successfull in WvW. And up to a few month anet was still seeing WvW as part of PvE. So yes! They do care about it. They put layer after layer of boon corruption so that their holy view of the necromancer and what he should be doing perform "well". We asked repeatedly for offensive support and they answered by what they define as the offensive support of the necromancer: more boon corruption. Nobody can say that they do not care about "their" necromancer. Now, we are players. We play it, in PvE, in PvP or in WvW. We are aware that indeed boon corruption is strong in area where there is plenty boons to corrupt. There is no deny it. But we also all know that the necromancer will never be successfull in PvE if it's offensive support is only this boon corruption thingy. We know that PvE is akin to a boon desert, even if anet try to put more and more boons in it to sustain the necromancer's offensive support. It sure is not gonna work, I'm convinced of it but anet try really hard for it to fit. Nobody should deny this fact! My personal opinion is that they should just give up and try the countless suggestion that have been proposed on the necromancer's forum. But for them it's probably something akin to a corruption of the image of the necromancer they got. Don't misunderstand my words. Anet defend and support their image of the necromancer not ours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoltreez.6435 Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 > @Dadnir.5038 said: > > @Zoltreez.6435 said: > > > @Dadnir.5038 said: > > > > > > Really wrong to say that anet gave up necromancer or don't care about it. > > > > 5.....FIVE years of being UNWANTED not needed and kicked/removed from everything that is High end and Serious...... > > > > so atm until they don't prove it other wise.... its not WRONG , its a kitten Fact they don't give 2 kitten about the state of Necros...... > > > > Don't make me pull out the Book of thousands of ignored Necro suggestions from the old forums either....... > > Don't misunderstand my words. Anet defend and support their image of the necromancer not ours. this is why it fails.... they are stubborn as hell and not see the issue then... also if you want something to work and be succesfull you make it for the millions of players not the few hundred office workers or for that 10 higer ups lol.... it just shows how incompetent the dev teams that handle necros are if under 5 years they not realised that something is wrong with their view of the Necro class and that it does not work in the actual game as a whole and that maybe they should change how they look at necro as a whole...... Necro is the biggest Niche class right now in the game with the biggest drawbacks among all the classes.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nord.1492 Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 > @Zoltreez.6435 said: > > @Dadnir.5038 said: > > > @Zoltreez.6435 said: > > > > @Dadnir.5038 said: > > > > > > > > Really wrong to say that anet gave up necromancer or don't care about it. > > > > > > 5.....FIVE years of being UNWANTED not needed and kicked/removed from everything that is High end and Serious...... > > > > > > so atm until they don't prove it other wise.... its not WRONG , its a kitten Fact they don't give 2 kitten about the state of Necros...... > > > > > > Don't make me pull out the Book of thousands of ignored Necro suggestions from the old forums either....... > > > > > Don't misunderstand my words. Anet defend and support their image of the necromancer not ours. > > this is why it fails.... they are stubborn as hell and not see the issue then... > > also if you want something to work and be succesfull you make it for the millions of players not the few hundred office workers or for that 10 higer ups lol.... > > it just shows how incompetent the dev teams that handle necros are if under 5 years they not realised that something is wrong with their view of the Necro class and that it does not work in the actual game as a whole and that maybe they should change how they look at necro as a whole...... > > Necro is the biggest Niche class right now in the game with the biggest drawbacks among all the classes.... Correct. 100% truth here. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagrant.7206 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 > @Dadnir.5038 said: > > @Zoltreez.6435 said: > > > @Dadnir.5038 said: > > > > > > Really wrong to say that anet gave up necromancer or don't care about it. > > > > 5.....FIVE years of being UNWANTED not needed and kicked/removed from everything that is High end and Serious...... > > > > so atm until they don't prove it other wise.... its not WRONG , its a kitten Fact they don't give 2 kitten about the state of Necros...... > > > > Don't make me pull out the Book of thousands of ignored Necro suggestions from the old forums either....... > > No, the point is that you do not understand what I'm saying, you just take the sentence and rage. > > Anet envision the necromancer in a very certain way. They have a clear understanding of what **their** necromancer have to be and they want it to succeed. The fact is that this view is successfull in WvW. You could even say that it's overly successfull in WvW. And up to a few month anet was still seeing WvW as part of PvE. So yes! They do care about it. They put layer after layer of boon corruption so that their holy view of the necromancer and what he should be doing perform "well". > > Don't misunderstand my words. Anet defend and support their image of the necromancer not ours. I just wish I knew what their vision for engineer was. LUL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maunzi.3764 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 > @Justine.6351 said: > I don't hardcore pve and I don't play engi and yet I read this and wonder what an engi must think if they read this. An engi would feel sympathy for the necro, because Engineer is quite fine in raids. Even pugs do not kick Engineers out, and Engineers frequently are top DPS in pugs due to Holosmith's easy rotation allowing for higher real DPS in the hands of an average player. Scourges and Reapers, meanwhile, are asked to sit out of most fights, with the sole exception of MO (epidemic really shines there). Mursaat Overseer happens to be a joke fight, too. And necromancers? Try playing a base necromancer, and you'll literally be laughed out of groups. For good reason, base necromancer is, for PVE, literally the worst class in the game bar none. The discrepancy to the performance of other classes is enormous - a base necro does, literally and without exaggeration, do less than half of what other classes do. That's why we're in such a bad spot. Engineer still has issues that deserve fixing, though. >the horrible horrible 4 Reaper, 1 Druid meta for T4 Fracts was pretty disgusting. Disgustingly terrible and slow. Try a "mirror comp" fractal party with cPS, chrono and druid once and you'll wonder why anyone ever thought those 4 reaper groups were good. It's MUCH faster than even the prenerf version of reaper ever was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoltreez.6435 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 > @Vagrant.7206 said: > > @Dadnir.5038 said: > > > @Zoltreez.6435 said: > > > > @Dadnir.5038 said: > > > > > > > > Really wrong to say that anet gave up necromancer or don't care about it. > > > > > > 5.....FIVE years of being UNWANTED not needed and kicked/removed from everything that is High end and Serious...... > > > > > > so atm until they don't prove it other wise.... its not WRONG , its a kitten Fact they don't give 2 kitten about the state of Necros...... > > > > > > Don't make me pull out the Book of thousands of ignored Necro suggestions from the old forums either....... > > > > No, the point is that you do not understand what I'm saying, you just take the sentence and rage. > > > > Anet envision the necromancer in a very certain way. They have a clear understanding of what **their** necromancer have to be and they want it to succeed. The fact is that this view is successfull in WvW. You could even say that it's overly successfull in WvW. And up to a few month anet was still seeing WvW as part of PvE. So yes! They do care about it. They put layer after layer of boon corruption so that their holy view of the necromancer and what he should be doing perform "well". > > > > Don't misunderstand my words. Anet defend and support their image of the necromancer not ours. > > I just wish I knew what their vision for engineer was. > > LUL Trick of all trades with gizmos ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 > > I just wish I knew what their vision for engineer was. > > LUL At least you got holosmith, not sure how good the dps is in pve but its pretty strong in pvp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaraki.5784 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 > @mygamingid.5816 said: > Stop confusing golem DPS charts with PvE. Necro is great in PvE, but Raid is solely a DPS check (nothing else), and Necro has a lot of non-DPS utility. You can’t ignore that utility in all other PvE, WvW, and PvP gameplay, so Necro is never going to be top DPS spec without a bug/exploit. Necro weapons (not traits) need a buff, I think everyone agrees on that. Regardless, they offer enough DPS to handle any raid boss and it’s just the toxic community that’s keeping them out of raids. Toxic community won't change thus Anet must make Necro viable in raids too ASAP, it's the only class not present in qtfy builds...even engi figures there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refia Montes.3205 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 > @Zaraki.5784 said: > > @mygamingid.5816 said: > > Stop confusing golem DPS charts with PvE. Necro is great in PvE, but Raid is solely a DPS check (nothing else), and Necro has a lot of non-DPS utility. You can’t ignore that utility in all other PvE, WvW, and PvP gameplay, so Necro is never going to be top DPS spec without a bug/exploit. Necro weapons (not traits) need a buff, I think everyone agrees on that. Regardless, they offer enough DPS to handle any raid boss and it’s just the toxic community that’s keeping them out of raids. > > Toxic community won't change thus Anet must make Necro viable in raids too ASAP, it's the only class not present in qtfy builds...even engi figures there. The reason why it's not present in qtfy builds is because they want to wait for the balance patch before even benchmarking it. [Look here](https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/news/scourge-update/) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > > @Zaraki.5784 said: > > > @mygamingid.5816 said: > > > Stop confusing golem DPS charts with PvE. Necro is great in PvE, but Raid is solely a DPS check (nothing else), and Necro has a lot of non-DPS utility. You can’t ignore that utility in all other PvE, WvW, and PvP gameplay, so Necro is never going to be top DPS spec without a bug/exploit. Necro weapons (not traits) need a buff, I think everyone agrees on that. Regardless, they offer enough DPS to handle any raid boss and it’s just the toxic community that’s keeping them out of raids. > > > > Toxic community won't change thus Anet must make Necro viable in raids too ASAP, it's the only class not present in qtfy builds...even engi figures there. > > The reason why it's not present in qtfy builds is because they want to wait for the balance patch before even benchmarking it. [Look here](https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/news/scourge-update/) > > Well, just saying but, why would you specifically wait for one and only one profession when balance will affect all professions (theoretically). If qtfy were really waiting for an hypothetic balance patch to statue on whether or not there is a futur for scourge, then they would have to equally do it for weaver, firebrand, soulbeast... etc. This is a cheap excuse. Each and every patch have their own threats for all specializations. Qtfy having no build for the necromancer only say one thing: _There is no competitive build for the necromancer in this version of the game._ Waiting for a patch just mean that they are waiting for a game version where it will be competitive because atm it's not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nord.1492 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 > @Vagrant.7206 said: > > @Dadnir.5038 said: > > > @Zoltreez.6435 said: > > > > @Dadnir.5038 said: > > > > > > > > Really wrong to say that anet gave up necromancer or don't care about it. > > > > > > 5.....FIVE years of being UNWANTED not needed and kicked/removed from everything that is High end and Serious...... > > > > > > so atm until they don't prove it other wise.... its not WRONG , its a kitten Fact they don't give 2 kitten about the state of Necros...... > > > > > > Don't make me pull out the Book of thousands of ignored Necro suggestions from the old forums either....... > > > > No, the point is that you do not understand what I'm saying, you just take the sentence and rage. > > > > Anet envision the necromancer in a very certain way. They have a clear understanding of what **their** necromancer have to be and they want it to succeed. The fact is that this view is successfull in WvW. You could even say that it's overly successfull in WvW. And up to a few month anet was still seeing WvW as part of PvE. So yes! They do care about it. They put layer after layer of boon corruption so that their holy view of the necromancer and what he should be doing perform "well". > > > > Don't misunderstand my words. Anet defend and support their image of the necromancer not ours. > > I just wish I knew what their vision for engineer was. > > LUL To be honest, youre right. But only for the First 2 years where Engis and Rangers niche classes. With HoT the Condi build is REALLY good in almost all situations, hard to play but good. With PoF they got a really nice Power Build with Holosmith, also good in almost every situation. Current state the engi is more fun for me then my necro, so please bring some sympathie for the necro community who already suffered more than 2 years, thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refia Montes.3205 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 > @Dadnir.5038 said: > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > > > @Zaraki.5784 said: > > > > @mygamingid.5816 said: > > > > Stop confusing golem DPS charts with PvE. Necro is great in PvE, but Raid is solely a DPS check (nothing else), and Necro has a lot of non-DPS utility. You can’t ignore that utility in all other PvE, WvW, and PvP gameplay, so Necro is never going to be top DPS spec without a bug/exploit. Necro weapons (not traits) need a buff, I think everyone agrees on that. Regardless, they offer enough DPS to handle any raid boss and it’s just the toxic community that’s keeping them out of raids. > > > > > > Toxic community won't change thus Anet must make Necro viable in raids too ASAP, it's the only class not present in qtfy builds...even engi figures there. > > > > The reason why it's not present in qtfy builds is because they want to wait for the balance patch before even benchmarking it. [Look here](https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/news/scourge-update/) > > > > > > Well, just saying but, why would you specifically wait for one and only one profession when balance will affect all professions (theoretically). If qtfy were really waiting for an hypothetic balance patch to statue on whether or not there is a futur for scourge, then they would have to equally do it for weaver, firebrand, soulbeast... etc. This is a cheap excuse. > > Each and every patch have their own threats for all specializations. Qtfy having no build for the necromancer only say one thing: _There is no competitive build for the necromancer in this version of the game._ Waiting for a patch just mean that they are waiting for a game version where it will be competitive because atm it's not. Eh might be true, but still Qt notes at the bottom, "Scourge is still in a ok-ish spot and can be picked for certain situations!" Take it as you will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > > @Dadnir.5038 said: > > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > > > > @Zaraki.5784 said: > > > > > @mygamingid.5816 said: > > > > > Stop confusing golem DPS charts with PvE. Necro is great in PvE, but Raid is solely a DPS check (nothing else), and Necro has a lot of non-DPS utility. You can’t ignore that utility in all other PvE, WvW, and PvP gameplay, so Necro is never going to be top DPS spec without a bug/exploit. Necro weapons (not traits) need a buff, I think everyone agrees on that. Regardless, they offer enough DPS to handle any raid boss and it’s just the toxic community that’s keeping them out of raids. > > > > > > > > Toxic community won't change thus Anet must make Necro viable in raids too ASAP, it's the only class not present in qtfy builds...even engi figures there. > > > > > > The reason why it's not present in qtfy builds is because they want to wait for the balance patch before even benchmarking it. [Look here](https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/news/scourge-update/) > > > > > > > > > > Well, just saying but, why would you specifically wait for one and only one profession when balance will affect all professions (theoretically). If qtfy were really waiting for an hypothetic balance patch to statue on whether or not there is a futur for scourge, then they would have to equally do it for weaver, firebrand, soulbeast... etc. This is a cheap excuse. > > > > Each and every patch have their own threats for all specializations. Qtfy having no build for the necromancer only say one thing: _There is no competitive build for the necromancer in this version of the game._ Waiting for a patch just mean that they are waiting for a game version where it will be competitive because atm it's not. > > Eh might be true, but still Qt notes at the bottom, "Scourge is still in a ok-ish spot and can be picked for certain situations!" Take it as you will. Even core necromancer is in an ok-ish spot and can be picked for certain situations. Some players prefered core necro for Deimos when this wing was released. The issue is always competitivity and qT only release competitive builds, not ok-ish builds. I'm pretty sure all specializations have plenty of ok-ish builds that can be picked for certain situations, only the necromancer and it's specializations don't have any competitive build that is a bit more than ok-ish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 > @Nord.1492 said: > > @Vagrant.7206 said: > > > @Dadnir.5038 said: > > > > @Zoltreez.6435 said: > > > > > @Dadnir.5038 said: > > > > > > > > > > Really wrong to say that anet gave up necromancer or don't care about it. > > > > > > > > 5.....FIVE years of being UNWANTED not needed and kicked/removed from everything that is High end and Serious...... > > > > > > > > so atm until they don't prove it other wise.... its not WRONG , its a kitten Fact they don't give 2 kitten about the state of Necros...... > > > > > > > > Don't make me pull out the Book of thousands of ignored Necro suggestions from the old forums either....... > > > > > > No, the point is that you do not understand what I'm saying, you just take the sentence and rage. > > > > > > Anet envision the necromancer in a very certain way. They have a clear understanding of what **their** necromancer have to be and they want it to succeed. The fact is that this view is successfull in WvW. You could even say that it's overly successfull in WvW. And up to a few month anet was still seeing WvW as part of PvE. So yes! They do care about it. They put layer after layer of boon corruption so that their holy view of the necromancer and what he should be doing perform "well". > > > > > > Don't misunderstand my words. Anet defend and support their image of the necromancer not ours. > > > > I just wish I knew what their vision for engineer was. > > > > LUL > > To be honest, youre right. But only for the First 2 years where Engis and Rangers niche classes. With HoT the Condi build is REALLY good in almost all situations, hard to play but good. With PoF they got a really nice Power Build with Holosmith, also good in almost every situation. Current state the engi is more fun for me then my necro, so please bring some sympathie for the necro community who already suffered more than 2 years, thank you. Before HoT, engis were in a good spot in PvE end game. They had everything needed for speed running and they only lacked a proper PvE playerbase to be widespread. That's why they were not that well known. I'm not saying they were mandatory since only 2 elementalists were "really" mandatory at that time but they possessed what was needed to easily replace the thief: a smoke field and some mobility. With HoT, engis had a pretty good headstart in raids but like the reaper, they've been "balanced" and fell behind. Even thought core engi ended up with an unexpected unique party buff in it's core spec while they were "balanced", it was not enough to the fact that there is quite some effort to do to achieve some results with the engineer. Thus, the engi ended up with a competitive headache inducing build that few players use due to the fact that you really need to give it your all, else the build is counter productive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zania.8461 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 The vision of Necromancer survived past the vision for the game as a whole. The original design did not have high end PvE that would push the damage to the highest and require team synergy - both of things that Necromancer design was not supposed to have. It is often described as attrition based selfish class - so low damage, high survivability and no team support. It can be debated on how much survivability necros actually have, but lets say that yes, they are sturdier than most other classes. But where does it leave them? Useful in WvW and sometimes useful in PvP, they are simply bottom of the barrel in high end PvE specifically due to their design. ANet has been opening different playstyles for some classes (mesmer can now both do respectable damage OR amazing support, same with rangers and elementalists. Warriors are currently enjoying unsurpassed utility while having reasonable damage output), however necro still remains bogged down in the low damage/high survivability design. Desert shroud was an attempt to reduce survivability and improve team support, but it feels that it did not go anywhere near far enough to make necroes viable. Yes one can bring up infamous 4/1 fractal groups. But those groups were meta not because they were super fast, but because a bad player on a condi reaper was a world better than a bad player on practically any other class. It was a safety/reliability setup, not speed setup. Similar in raids - you CAN bring a necro to a raid, but it would be sub-optimal in most encounters. So what can be done? At the moment, not much. We either wait and hope that Scourge gets fixed into usefulness via balance patches, or wait for the next expansion and hope the new elite will make the class useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagrant.7206 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 > @Nord.1492 said: > > @Vagrant.7206 said: > > > @Dadnir.5038 said: > > > > @Zoltreez.6435 said: > > > > > @Dadnir.5038 said: > > > > > > > > > > Really wrong to say that anet gave up necromancer or don't care about it. > > > > > > > > 5.....FIVE years of being UNWANTED not needed and kicked/removed from everything that is High end and Serious...... > > > > > > > > so atm until they don't prove it other wise.... its not WRONG , its a kitten Fact they don't give 2 kitten about the state of Necros...... > > > > > > > > Don't make me pull out the Book of thousands of ignored Necro suggestions from the old forums either....... > > > > > > No, the point is that you do not understand what I'm saying, you just take the sentence and rage. > > > > > > Anet envision the necromancer in a very certain way. They have a clear understanding of what **their** necromancer have to be and they want it to succeed. The fact is that this view is successfull in WvW. You could even say that it's overly successfull in WvW. And up to a few month anet was still seeing WvW as part of PvE. So yes! They do care about it. They put layer after layer of boon corruption so that their holy view of the necromancer and what he should be doing perform "well". > > > > > > Don't misunderstand my words. Anet defend and support their image of the necromancer not ours. > > > > I just wish I knew what their vision for engineer was. > > > > LUL > > To be honest, youre right. But only for the First 2 years where Engis and Rangers niche classes. With HoT the Condi build is REALLY good in almost all situations, hard to play but good. With PoF they got a really nice Power Build with Holosmith, also good in almost every situation. Current state the engi is more fun for me then my necro, so please bring some sympathie for the necro community who already suffered more than 2 years, thank you. Now, let me preface by saying that I do sympathize -- necros, mesmers, engineers, and revenants definitely seem to get the shortest end of the stick. Buuuuuuuuut... I don't raid much, so I don't know about that scenario, but scourges and reapers are still quite regular appearances in my daily fractal runs - they do have powerful support and condi options. I don't know how complicated their rotation is, but I know that I have to rotate through about 30ish skills to achieve good DPS as a condi engineer, and about 15ish skills as a holosmith, although I'm much squishier as a holosmith. I'm not saying more effort automatically means more damage, but I find it strange that much simpler builds can still achieve roughly the same DPS -- and people will still complain. In the past, necros and reapers were extremely effective in fractals -- I remember seeing plenty of necro-only teams for a significant period of time. I know those teams greatly benefitted when I was on them as a condi engineer, as epidemic suddenly acquired my burning stacks, but they were not "bottom of the barrel" for a significant portion of time. As for the pain olympics... have you played holosmith in PvE? It's squishy as ****, and it still isn't as good as condi *base* engineer. Scrapper was worthless in PvE, and holosmith isn't actually that much better than the ol', stupid power bomber build. I'd really love to play something other than base engineer at some point in the next 5 years. >Before HoT, engis were in a good spot in PvE end game. They had everything needed for speed running and they only lacked a proper PvE playerbase to be widespread. That's why they were not that well known. There wasn't too much of an endgame back then. There were fractals, which relied more on an understanding of the mechanics than DPS, and dungeons. > I'm not saying they were mandatory since only 2 elementalists were "really" mandatory at that time but they possessed what was needed to easily replace the thief: a smoke field and some mobility. Yeah, but have you done the old "blast smoke field" stuff? It was by no means a good replacement for thief. :tongue: Let me just change my entire bar to do the thing that a thief only has to use one skill for... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 > @Vagrant.7206 said: > Yeah, but have you done the old "blast smoke field" stuff? It was by no means a good replacement for thief. :tongue: Let me just change my entire bar to do the thing that a thief only has to use one skill for... I did it plenty of time thanks! Since speed runs were my main source of income at that time and I had plenty of time to waste due to an IRL injurie that is still not completely healed even after all those years have passed. And let's be honest, you needn't have to change your entire bar, you just had to take your bomb kit which was already on your bar alongside the nade kit and everybody in your group had to take blast for various reasons (might stack/swiftness/stealth). There is no need to make the engineer appear worse than he was, the reality is that it was a solid choice at that time. NB.: Beside, you are wrong in thinking that a thief had to use only 1 skill to cover the stealth need of a group. _Shadow refuge_ sure is good but it has never been enough for the job. Usually for mob skipping, the thief had to take _shadow refuge, smoke screen, blinding powder, shortbow and off-hand pistol_, which could be considered as a pretty taxing investment in skills and weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maunzi.3764 Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 > @Vagrant.7206 said: > Now, let me preface by saying that I do sympathize -- necros, mesmers, engineers, and revenants definitely seem to get the shortest end of the stick. Buuuuuuuuut... > > I don't raid much, so I don't know about that scenario, but scourges and reapers are still quite regular appearances in my daily fractal runs - they do have powerful support and condi options. I don't know how complicated their rotation is, but I know that I have to rotate through about 30ish skills to achieve good DPS as a condi engineer, and about 15ish skills as a holosmith, although I'm much squishier as a holosmith. I'm not saying more effort automatically means more damage, but I find it strange that much simpler builds can still achieve roughly the same DPS -- and people will still complain. I find Engineer and especially Holosmith easier to play than, for example, a reaper that is played at maximum effectiveness, due to the neccessity of field placement and "attunement" to actually do full damage. Engineer and especially Holosmith still does significantly more damage. > In the past, necros and reapers were extremely effective in fractals -- Stopping you right there. That's a myth. Necros were extremely effective for a few weeks, until the little fiends were nerfed to the ground. After this, necros were always a bad choice. A mirror comp flies through the content at a speed that a 4 reaper party can only dream of - they burn through a fractal over twice as fast! Necros were not "extremely effective", and necro only teams existed solely to actually get anywhere since good groups tended to kick them. A dragonhunter or tempest made a mockery of reaper damage in fractals, and a single Chrono made the group more survivable than 4 reapers with shroud combined. > As for the pain olympics... have you played holosmith in PvE? It's squishy as ****, and it still isn't as good as condi *base* engineer. Scrapper was worthless in PvE, and holosmith isn't actually that much better than the ol', stupid power bomber build. I'd really love to play something other than base engineer at some point in the next 5 years. Scrapper was worthless, but Engineer was far better in PVE than, say, any necro spec. Engineer still wasn't **great**, and definitely needs help, but the objective numbers in raids across thousands of players reveal the massive advantage over Necros/Reapers over and over. And that advantage just got worse with PoF. Again, these are simple numbers from actual, real fights. Engineers even outperformed necros/reapers on epidemic fights, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MashMash.1645 Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 > @Swamurabi.7890 said: > > @Ara.4569 said: > > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said: > > > Could Necro mains in the forum just wait a bit more? > > It's been 5 years, so a little more is nothing. > > On the other hand, it's been 5 years. > > 2020 GW3: Rise of the Necros Day One Patch: All Necro skills damage reduced by 66% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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