Was Necro never intended for PvE?

[Zoltreez.6435]

> @MashMash.1645 said:

> > @Swamurabi.7890 said:

> > > @Ara.4569 said:

> > > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said:

> > > > Could Necro mains in the forum just wait a bit more?

> > > It's been 5 years, so a little more is nothing.

> > > On the other hand, it's been 5 years.

> >

> > 2020 GW3: Rise of the Necros

>

> Day One Patch:

>

> All Necro skills damage reduced by 66%

 

Devs after th update: Don't worry guys necro buffs coming "soon"

 

6 months later

 

Axe Skill 1 dmg increased by 10%

[Dadnir.5038]

> @Zoltreez.6435 said:

> > @MashMash.1645 said:

> > > @Swamurabi.7890 said:

> > > > @Ara.4569 said:

> > > > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said:

> > > > > Could Necro mains in the forum just wait a bit more?

> > > > It's been 5 years, so a little more is nothing.

> > > > On the other hand, it's been 5 years.

> > >

> > > 2020 GW3: Rise of the Necros

> >

> > Day One Patch:

> >

> > All Necro skills damage reduced by 66%

>

> Devs after th update: Don't worry guys necro buffs coming "soon"

>

> 6 months later

>

> Axe Skill 1 dmg increased by 10%

 

Let me correct you: _Off-hand Axe skill damage increased by 10%_

;)

 

[zinkz.7045]

No class was intended for PvE, if you go back before the game launched, the basic "vision" for this game was PvP was the serious bit, and PvE/WvW were casual fun, hence in Alpha class design/skills/traits/combat mechancis was all about PvP and what Teldo and co thought, then when the game launched and the devs did those livestreams every time they released a balance patch, the changes were discussed nearly entirely in relation to PvP, then for 3 years the game was balanced nearly entirely around PvP.

 

It was only when they decided to add raids for HoT they started making meaningful balance/design decisions for PvE, did it not occur to you as to why the PvE in this game (especially the first 3 years) was so bad? The stacking in a corner BS? The combat / balance was built around PvP, how a class was in PvE or WvW for that matter was just a minor consideration.

[Zoltreez.6435]

> @Dadnir.5038 said:

> > @Zoltreez.6435 said:

> > > @MashMash.1645 said:

> > > > @Swamurabi.7890 said:

> > > > > @Ara.4569 said:

> > > > > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said:

> > > > > > Could Necro mains in the forum just wait a bit more?

> > > > > It's been 5 years, so a little more is nothing.

> > > > > On the other hand, it's been 5 years.

> > > >

> > > > 2020 GW3: Rise of the Necros

> > >

> > > Day One Patch:

> > >

> > > All Necro skills damage reduced by 66%

> >

> > Devs after th update: Don't worry guys necro buffs coming "soon"

> >

> > 6 months later

> >

> > Axe Skill 1 dmg increased by 10%

>

> Let me correct you: _Off-hand Axe skill damage increased by 10%_

> ;)

>

 

Eh... we don't have an off....... ooooooooh i see what you did there.

 

good one.....

[Nord.1492]

> @Vagrant.7206 said:

> > @Nord.1492 said:

> > > @Vagrant.7206 said:

> > > > @Dadnir.5038 said:

> > > > > @Zoltreez.6435 said:

> > > > > > @Dadnir.5038 said:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Really wrong to say that anet gave up necromancer or don't care about it.

> > > > >

> > > > > 5.....FIVE years of being UNWANTED not needed and kicked/removed from everything that is High end and Serious......

> > > > >

> > > > > so atm until they don't prove it other wise.... its not WRONG , its a kitten Fact they don't give 2 kitten about the state of Necros......

> > > > >

> > > > > Don't make me pull out the Book of thousands of ignored Necro suggestions from the old forums either.......

> > > >

> > > > No, the point is that you do not understand what I'm saying, you just take the sentence and rage.

> > > >

> > > > Anet envision the necromancer in a very certain way. They have a clear understanding of what **their** necromancer have to be and they want it to succeed. The fact is that this view is successfull in WvW. You could even say that it's overly successfull in WvW. And up to a few month anet was still seeing WvW as part of PvE. So yes! They do care about it. They put layer after layer of boon corruption so that their holy view of the necromancer and what he should be doing perform "well".

> > > >

> > > > Don't misunderstand my words. Anet defend and support their image of the necromancer not ours.

> > >

> > > I just wish I knew what their vision for engineer was.

> > >

> > > LUL

> >

> > To be honest, youre right. But only for the First 2 years where Engis and Rangers niche classes. With HoT the Condi build is REALLY good in almost all situations, hard to play but good. With PoF they got a really nice Power Build with Holosmith, also good in almost every situation. Current state the engi is more fun for me then my necro, so please bring some sympathie for the necro community who already suffered more than 2 years, thank you.

>

> Now, let me preface by saying that I do sympathize -- necros, mesmers, engineers, and revenants definitely seem to get the shortest end of the stick. Buuuuuuuuut...

>

> I don't raid much, so I don't know about that scenario, but scourges and reapers are still quite regular appearances in my daily fractal runs - they do have powerful support and condi options. I don't know how complicated their rotation is, but I know that I have to rotate through about 30ish skills to achieve good DPS as a condi engineer, and about 15ish skills as a holosmith, although I'm much squishier as a holosmith. I'm not saying more effort automatically means more damage, but I find it strange that much simpler builds can still achieve roughly the same DPS -- and people will still complain.

>

> In the past, necros and reapers were extremely effective in fractals -- I remember seeing plenty of necro-only teams for a significant period of time. I know those teams greatly benefitted when I was on them as a condi engineer, as epidemic suddenly acquired my burning stacks, but they were not "bottom of the barrel" for a significant portion of time.

>

> As for the pain olympics... have you played holosmith in PvE? It's squishy as ****, and it still isn't as good as condi *base* engineer. Scrapper was worthless in PvE, and holosmith isn't actually that much better than the ol', stupid power bomber build. I'd really love to play something other than base engineer at some point in the next 5 years.

>

> >Before HoT, engis were in a good spot in PvE end game. They had everything needed for speed running and they only lacked a proper PvE playerbase to be widespread. That's why they were not that well known.

>

> There wasn't too much of an endgame back then. There were fractals, which relied more on an understanding of the mechanics than DPS, and dungeons.

>

> > I'm not saying they were mandatory since only 2 elementalists were "really" mandatory at that time but they possessed what was needed to easily replace the thief: a smoke field and some mobility.

>

> Yeah, but have you done the old "blast smoke field" stuff? It was by no means a good replacement for thief. :tongue: Let me just change my entire bar to do the thing that a thief only has to use one skill for...

 

I understand your point. Like i said in this Thread that i love my necro and dont want to play something else that you are feeling the same with your engi. We cannot look in Anets heads, or their Balance Team in which direction these classes have to go. But you found something with your class you fell in love with, not mandatory if its hard or easy to play, and thats the point you see something thats not part of anets plan with the class. We are exposed to anets arbitrariness and we must hope that they will do something that satisfies OUR view. Sadly, they do almost the opposit for almost everyone of us, so deal with it. :D :)

[Methuselah.4376]

> @Dadnir.5038 said:

> > @"Refia Montes.3205" said:

> > > @Zaraki.5784 said:

> > > > @mygamingid.5816 said:

> > > > Stop confusing golem DPS charts with PvE. Necro is great in PvE, but Raid is solely a DPS check (nothing else), and Necro has a lot of non-DPS utility. You can’t ignore that utility in all other PvE, WvW, and PvP gameplay, so Necro is never going to be top DPS spec without a bug/exploit. Necro weapons (not traits) need a buff, I think everyone agrees on that. Regardless, they offer enough DPS to handle any raid boss and it’s just the toxic community that’s keeping them out of raids.

> > >

> > > Toxic community won't change thus Anet must make Necro viable in raids too ASAP, it's the only class not present in qtfy builds...even engi figures there.

> >

> > The reason why it's not present in qtfy builds is because they want to wait for the balance patch before even benchmarking it. [Look here](https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/news/scourge-update/)

> >

> >

>

> Well, just saying but, why would you specifically wait for one and only one profession when balance will affect all professions (theoretically). If qtfy were really waiting for an hypothetic balance patch to statue on whether or not there is a futur for scourge, then they would have to equally do it for weaver, firebrand, soulbeast... etc. This is a cheap excuse.

>

> Each and every patch have their own threats for all specializations. Qtfy having no build for the necromancer only say one thing: _There is no competitive build for the necromancer in this version of the game._ Waiting for a patch just mean that they are waiting for a game version where it will be competitive because atm it's not.

 

Quite honestly, I think they should still have the most viable build/s on. Condi reaper can do well enough in a raid, and present Scourge is still in a decent enough spot (I still get higher cps on Scourge than I do on condi Reaper).

[Dadnir.5038]

> @Methuselah.4376 said:

> > @Dadnir.5038 said:

> > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said:

> > > > @Zaraki.5784 said:

> > > > > @mygamingid.5816 said:

> > > > > Stop confusing golem DPS charts with PvE. Necro is great in PvE, but Raid is solely a DPS check (nothing else), and Necro has a lot of non-DPS utility. You can’t ignore that utility in all other PvE, WvW, and PvP gameplay, so Necro is never going to be top DPS spec without a bug/exploit. Necro weapons (not traits) need a buff, I think everyone agrees on that. Regardless, they offer enough DPS to handle any raid boss and it’s just the toxic community that’s keeping them out of raids.

> > > >

> > > > Toxic community won't change thus Anet must make Necro viable in raids too ASAP, it's the only class not present in qtfy builds...even engi figures there.

> > >

> > > The reason why it's not present in qtfy builds is because they want to wait for the balance patch before even benchmarking it. [Look here](https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/news/scourge-update/)

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Well, just saying but, why would you specifically wait for one and only one profession when balance will affect all professions (theoretically). If qtfy were really waiting for an hypothetic balance patch to statue on whether or not there is a futur for scourge, then they would have to equally do it for weaver, firebrand, soulbeast... etc. This is a cheap excuse.

> >

> > Each and every patch have their own threats for all specializations. Qtfy having no build for the necromancer only say one thing: _There is no competitive build for the necromancer in this version of the game._ Waiting for a patch just mean that they are waiting for a game version where it will be competitive because atm it's not.

>

> Quite honestly, I think they should still have the most viable build/s on. Condi reaper can do well enough in a raid, and present Scourge is still in a decent enough spot (I still get higher cps on Scourge than I do on condi Reaper).

 

You are most likely right, however, the issue of the necromancer will still be competitivity. There is no reason to take a full dps scourge that reliably does 30k dps when you can take another spec that reliably does 34k dps. Reaper's dps have always been unreliable which was it's main issue and on that point scourge cover this issue pretty well, however, scourge dps since shades fix end up being way to low to compete for a dps spot while it's support is not attractive in PvE.

[Kanto.1659]

No. I can assure you neither will do 30k or 34k in a real scenario. Once people get away from this theoretical fairyland where theoretical benchmarks are achieved and use instead REAL benchmarks the ones who will be used are the ones who can spam their most forgiving rotation. Scourge, for all its faults, can be played 100% at range, where I was severely irked playing my condiranger in fractals just yesterday because I constantly had to stay away from bosses since AoEs spawned under their feet and I could not lay my traps.

 

This kind of thing does not show in benchmarks but is the kind of thing that shows in real use of a class. There are sites where raiders put their logs. If you want to compare stop using QT benchmarks and pull logs from there.

 

You might see different rankings than the ones worshiped on an altar by the GW2 community.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @Kanto.1659 said:

> No. I can assure you neither will do 30k or 34k in a real scenario. Once people get away from this theoretical fairyland where theoretical benchmarks are achieved and use instead REAL benchmarks the ones who will be used are the ones who can spam their most forgiving rotation. Scourge, for all its faults, can be played 100% at range, where I was severely irked playing my condiranger in fractals just yesterday because I constantly had to stay away from bosses since AoEs spawned under their feet and I could not lay my traps.

>

> This kind of thing does not show in benchmarks but is the kind of thing that shows in real use of a class. There are sites where raiders put their logs. If you want to compare stop using QT benchmarks and pull logs from there.

>

> You might see different rankings than the ones worshiped on an altar by the GW2 community.

 

That's where you are wrong, scourge need as much as a condi ranger to be in melee range to do it's max potential damages and the benchmark always assume the same environment for every professions. Knowing the mechanisms, knowing when there will be a window of opportunity to lay your aoe or being able to perfectly do a rotation as nothing to do with a professions, it all depend on the player. All professions and e-spec need to be able to have the same potential if you want a sliver of balance in this game.

 

This "altar" like you say base himself on a few thing: dps potential (which is what you are supposed to be able to pull off in optimal situation) and usefullness of the profession. What I suggested with 30k dps support and 34k dps in dps spec is simply what a warrior have as potential since age and they reliably do these numbers. Scourge being at 30k dps while in full dps trait only mean that you are better of taking a warrior than a scourge in every encounters. There is just no reason for the scourge to be far behind every other professions in regard of potential dps, and your survivability/range argument might even be the most childish thing you could come up with. The aoe on the field hinder the scourge as much as any other professions.

[Kanto.1659]

Did you check that site I mentioned with raid logs? Obviously Scourge was victim of a three man dev team who did not have the time to test things so we need the tweaks coming tomorrow . But everything else you speak of still relates to the mythical benchmarks achieved on dummies.

 

And since when does a Scourge need to be melee like a ranger does? Seriously? Scepter is their weapon of choice. The shades are ranged. At most the cone from the torch is the closest to melee they need to be, and at that it's medium range and even if unable to use it its one skill only. The ranger needs to be in melee for the shortbow cone, for the axe cone, for the torch #5, and for both traps. An AoE spawns under the boss and we need to move away? The Scourge is pewpewing while the ranger is mashing their #1.

 

This whole conversation is the same as the Beastmaster VS Markmanship Hunters have in WoW. BM has no cast times, and in theory is lesser damage. MM is more damage, but needs to hold still to cast, which is a problem in a game field with one shot mechanics. In practice despite lower potential damage BM does well in anything but the most tank-and-spank bosses since an easy rotation done on the run allows to catch up while others have to stop and move.

 

Hell, I'm all for buffing Scourge. Necro is my main. I'm just talking of the very specific thing which is potential VS actual damage numbers.

[Dadnir.5038]

Let's clarify then, since this PvE group content is "group content" and the way you share support force everyone to stay close together, you need to first stay close to your melee mates to be effective. There is also the fact that a lot of shroud effect happen around you only and these shroud effect are part of your dps.

 

I've looked at your site and what we see on it is that there are specs that are popular and spec that aren't. You will obviously have a greater range of data for specs that are used a lot, averaging the results more than for specs that aren't popular. In short, nothing in these data prove to be more trustworthy than a display of the specs that proved to be most optimal after both theorycrafting and numerous test in actual raids. Afterall, I'm pretty sure qT actually use their builds in raid before posting them onto their site.

 

I understand that there may be a few difference in gameplay between professions but, let's be honest, there is absolutely no reason to deny that the scourge is not competitive in regard of damage and support in PvE in front of most other professions. A group will always work so that each and everyone will be able to display it's maximum potential, this is the goal of what we call teamplay, if the maximum potential of a profession is inferior then it's logical that your group that focus on helping everyone to dispaly it's maximum potential will take someone with a better potential. You can't say: "I've an inferior potential but it's easy for me to achieve it so I'm a better pick", by doing that you already deny your whole team work. In fact it's like the revive thingy, saying that is akin to say: I don't expect my teammate to be able to help me do my job so don't worry, I've less potential than others but I reach it easily.

 

We are not talking about selfishly doing your job, we are talking about putting your weight into a group effort. And for that the scourge is not competitive. Honnestly, if the top potential dps weren't so far ahead, it probably wouldn't be an issue but they are far ahead in both support and dps. I'm not saying that scourge have no support but all of it is aimed at a game mode that involve tons of boons on it's enemies and load of incoming conditions.

 

As for me I'm not all for buffing scourge. I am all for balancing scourge in such a way that it become competitive without becoming a must pick profession. That's why I look objectively at the spec and say that there is a need to more of the power/support of this spec into traits and less into the shroud skills/weapon. A glassy scourge that spec for damage should be able to deal competitive damage and the 30k ceiling that he currently have is not competitive especially since a cPS reliably do as much damage with mandatory support on top of it.

 

NB.: If I take your example of the wow BM and MM, where do you think scourge and reapers stands? The similarity is that one have instant cast and the other long cast time yet both are unwelcome in groups for various reasons. The issue is that the necromancer have no usefull tool in PvE except for damage tools and that those damage tools are inferior to thoses of the other professions. The necromancers had to deal with it for 5 years and with how things are going, they will have to continue to deal with it for at least 2 years. The developpement choice for the necromancer were incredibly bad if we look at them from a PvE viewpoint which is why there is this thread named "was necro never intended for PvE?". Before PoF, we could probably have seen the same type of thread for the warrior: "Was warrior never intended for PvP?", however, Anet worked on this aspect of the warrior and came up with something that give them an edge in PvP. What's sad is that Anet didn't do the same for the necromancer and just try to push this profession further and further into the same tools that have already proven for 5 years straight that they aren't usefull in PvE. The necromancer madly thirst for a bit of competitivity in PvE, and being an "easy" profession with a short damage ceiling isn't going to make this happen.

[Methuselah.4376]

> @Dadnir.5038 said:

> > @Methuselah.4376 said:

> > > @Dadnir.5038 said:

> > > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said:

> > > > > @Zaraki.5784 said:

> > > > > > @mygamingid.5816 said:

> > > > > > Stop confusing golem DPS charts with PvE. Necro is great in PvE, but Raid is solely a DPS check (nothing else), and Necro has a lot of non-DPS utility. You can’t ignore that utility in all other PvE, WvW, and PvP gameplay, so Necro is never going to be top DPS spec without a bug/exploit. Necro weapons (not traits) need a buff, I think everyone agrees on that. Regardless, they offer enough DPS to handle any raid boss and it’s just the toxic community that’s keeping them out of raids.

> > > > >

> > > > > Toxic community won't change thus Anet must make Necro viable in raids too ASAP, it's the only class not present in qtfy builds...even engi figures there.

> > > >

> > > > The reason why it's not present in qtfy builds is because they want to wait for the balance patch before even benchmarking it. [Look here](https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/news/scourge-update/)

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Well, just saying but, why would you specifically wait for one and only one profession when balance will affect all professions (theoretically). If qtfy were really waiting for an hypothetic balance patch to statue on whether or not there is a futur for scourge, then they would have to equally do it for weaver, firebrand, soulbeast... etc. This is a cheap excuse.

> > >

> > > Each and every patch have their own threats for all specializations. Qtfy having no build for the necromancer only say one thing: _There is no competitive build for the necromancer in this version of the game._ Waiting for a patch just mean that they are waiting for a game version where it will be competitive because atm it's not.

> >

> > Quite honestly, I think they should still have the most viable build/s on. Condi reaper can do well enough in a raid, and present Scourge is still in a decent enough spot (I still get higher cps on Scourge than I do on condi Reaper).

>

> You are most likely right, however, the issue of the necromancer will still be competitivity. There is no reason to take a full dps scourge that reliably does 30k dps when you can take another spec that reliably does 34k dps. Reaper's dps have always been unreliable which was it's main issue and on that point scourge cover this issue pretty well, however, scourge dps since shades fix end up being way to low to compete for a dps spot while it's support is not attractive in PvE.

 

No I fully agree that other professions do better in raids, it is just it is so harrowing when a site that posts builds that are subpar for a profession to take still does not post the best builds necro can take. As it stands, one can be forgiven for thinking necro does 0 damage. It is not a question of competitiveness per say, but more that of simple information.

 

I actually think that since necro brings so little to a group, their dps should be much higher thereby making them a desired dps spot. Scourge, with its barriers, should at least be thought of by the devs in terms similar to guardian: great damage output with decent damage mitigation. Not "It's a heavy support class guys, so no dps for you". Barriers, while indeed handy (zerging in Mad Labyrinth with other scourge's pretty much ensured our health never got damaged), are not really support imo. I think support is when you help other players achieve something - while barriers help them stay alive longer, I consider them passing damage mitigation, they don't provide increases to another player's performance. This is why druids are preferred over healing tempests, because they bring better SUPPORT than tempest with GotL and spirits. Technically, Scourge has a lot of might generation if spec'ed for it sure...but it is still subpar to cPS (who brings banners for extra support, whereas at best we bring life steal) especially with the abysmal range we have.

[Kanto.1659]

> @Dadnir.5038 said:

> Let's clarify then, since this PvE group content is "group content" and the way you share support force everyone to stay close together, you need to first stay close to your melee mates to be effective. There is also the fact that a lot of shroud effect happen around you only and these shroud effect are part of your dps.

 

I don't have much more to add to the conversation at this point, but I'd like to say I appreciate the conversation staying focused and not devolving into rude posturing. It is almost rare nowadays. Kudos.

 

 

 

 

[Nord.1492]

> @Kanto.1659 said:

> No. I can assure you neither will do 30k or 34k in a real scenario. Once people get away from this theoretical fairyland where theoretical benchmarks are achieved and use instead REAL benchmarks the ones who will be used are the ones who can spam their most forgiving rotation. Scourge, for all its faults, can be played 100% at range, where I was severely irked playing my condiranger in fractals just yesterday because I constantly had to stay away from bosses since AoEs spawned under their feet and I could not lay my traps.

>

> This kind of thing does not show in benchmarks but is the kind of thing that shows in real use of a class. There are sites where raiders put their logs. If you want to compare stop using QT benchmarks and pull logs from there.

>

> You might see different rankings than the ones worshiped on an altar by the GW2 community.

 

You are absolutely right. But try to say that to all the people who are blinded by the elitists, especially to the 90% who look to the qtfy benchmarks, its impossible. Person 1 says to person 2 that necro is bad, thats a wildfire who reaches person 2.000.000. Its like in my guild when somebody asked which build/class he should play for raid, and 5 persons automatically say look at metabattle or qtfy and thats the problem.