Did we undersell sword?

[Substatic.6958]

> @Lunateric.3708 said:

> We'll have to wait for solar focused lens bugfix to give definitive numbers on my side but so far rifle still beats sword by 500-1k DPS while keeping the extra CC and the "range" option.

 

Do you mean just camping rifle? Or also kit swapping with it?

[Kamahl.3621]

A'ight, nevermind. I got them close but then remembered skill priorities. Shame too because I was getting the Sword rotation down pat, nearly explode, 4 refraction cutters before re-engaging forge, use Corona Burst twice and try to end with it so you literally hit 150 heat without exploding, but all that heat-monitoring effort is for nought compared to Forge 1/3/5 until overheat, then blow your cooldowns 'til you're cooled down.

 

Pretty disappointed I waited this long for the patch to give me some hope, and it's just the same braindead engineer build it was before. Why bother fixing the terrible placement of the heat bar when you can just make the best build not care about monitoring it? Boom, problem solved, onto designing the next half-baked elite specialization.

[Lunateric.3708]

> @Substatic.6958 said:

> > @Lunateric.3708 said:

> > We'll have to wait for solar focused lens bugfix to give definitive numbers on my side but so far rifle still beats sword by 500-1k DPS while keeping the extra CC and the "range" option.

>

> Do you mean just camping rifle? Or also kit swapping with it?

 

Rifle with bomb kits autos.

[Adamantium.3682]

It's close but not enough to be a clear winner it looks like. The change to SFL is so miniscule I wonder why they even did it. 10% on two attacks once every ~10s? That is so weak. I bet it buffs rifle with PBM better.

 

SFL should just infuse your sword with light and give +10% sword damage, period.

[Lunateric.3708]

> @Adamantium.3682 said:

> It's close but not enough to be a clear winner it looks like. The change to SFL is so miniscule I wonder why they even did it. 10% on two attacks once every ~10s? That is so weak. I bet it buffs rifle with PBM better.

>

> SFL should just infuse your sword with light and give +10% sword damage, period.

 

Yeah, with the new SFL you get more with PBM, the breach both builds had is more noticeable. Bottom line sword buffs are meaningless if you care for min/maxing I think, you can RP with it I guess :p.

[Adamantium.3682]

> @Lunateric.3708 said:

> > @Adamantium.3682 said:

> > It's close but not enough to be a clear winner it looks like. The change to SFL is so miniscule I wonder why they even did it. 10% on two attacks once every ~10s? That is so weak. I bet it buffs rifle with PBM better.

> >

> > SFL should just infuse your sword with light and give +10% sword damage, period.

>

> Yeah, with the new SFL you get more with PBM, the breach both builds had is more noticeable. Bottom line sword buffs are meaningless if you care for min/maxing I think, you can RP with it I guess :p.

 

The only thing I can think of for ECSU's favor (and by extension, the sword's) is that you activate SFL every ~7-10s. But any way you cut it, +10% on two attacks... that is just bad. I'm disappointed this is the conclusion the team came to after Robert commented about SFL needing some power buff

[Lunateric.3708]

> @Adamantium.3682 said:

> > @Lunateric.3708 said:

> > > @Adamantium.3682 said:

> > > It's close but not enough to be a clear winner it looks like. The change to SFL is so miniscule I wonder why they even did it. 10% on two attacks once every ~10s? That is so weak. I bet it buffs rifle with PBM better.

> > >

> > > SFL should just infuse your sword with light and give +10% sword damage, period.

> >

> > Yeah, with the new SFL you get more with PBM, the breach both builds had is more noticeable. Bottom line sword buffs are meaningless if you care for min/maxing I think, you can RP with it I guess :p.

>

> The only thing I can think of for ECSU's favor (and by extension, the sword's) is that you activate SFL every ~7-10s. But any way you cut it, +10% on two attacks... that is just bad. I'm disappointed this is the conclusion the team came to after Robert commented about SFL needing some power buff

 

We got a slight DPS buff with new SFL and the PBM small damage increase but sword buffs are not quite there. I'm more sad about scrapper being untouched STILL after the impact savant thing, gyros are terrible AI any way you dice it, gadgets are seeing more use with the tools Holo build for PvP and WvW which is good but turrets outside rifle and healing are largely ignored, med kit still a meme. There are some trait issues of course and one prime example is how SFL synergizes completely with PBM but has reduced impact with anything else.

 

But the real sad part is nothing will change for 3 more months and chances are the things that do change then are not what one would want.

[Kamahl.3621]

> @Lunateric.3708 said:

> > @Adamantium.3682 said:

> > It's close but not enough to be a clear winner it looks like. The change to SFL is so miniscule I wonder why they even did it. 10% on two attacks once every ~10s? That is so weak. I bet it buffs rifle with PBM better.

> >

> > SFL should just infuse your sword with light and give +10% sword damage, period.

>

> Yeah, with the new SFL you get more with PBM, the breach both builds had is more noticeable. Bottom line sword buffs are meaningless if you care for min/maxing I think, you can RP with it I guess :p.

 

It's substantially better when you don't have a source of permanent quickness in the party, for what it's worth, which is quite often for most players.

[Adamantium.3682]

Since it sounded like Robert didn't like the flat damage bonus against burning, just make SFL +10% sword damage. I don't get tying it to the burn damage procs at all.

 

I used sword for Deimos and KC, neither are great places for benchmarks but sword damage was 20% of my total damage for each, almost on the dot so I'll assume that's pretty typical. So using sword SFL would be a ~2% damage boost overall. This would not affect PvP modes either as those builds are using one of the other traits and sword is not spike damage anyways.

 

Small but noticeable, exactly what the only minor damage trait should be. And it's consistent with other traits across the game.

[Lunateric.3708]

> @Kamahl.3621 said:

> > @Lunateric.3708 said:

> > > @Adamantium.3682 said:

> > > It's close but not enough to be a clear winner it looks like. The change to SFL is so miniscule I wonder why they even did it. 10% on two attacks once every ~10s? That is so weak. I bet it buffs rifle with PBM better.

> > >

> > > SFL should just infuse your sword with light and give +10% sword damage, period.

> >

> > Yeah, with the new SFL you get more with PBM, the breach both builds had is more noticeable. Bottom line sword buffs are meaningless if you care for min/maxing I think, you can RP with it I guess :p.

>

> It's substantially better when you don't have a source of permanent quickness in the party, for what it's worth, which is quite often for most players.

 

That's why I talk about min/maxing, for fractals, dungeons and raids you'll always have a source of quickness so there isn't any competition there. That leaves you with open world and I doubt you need any specific build for open world.

[Adamantium.3682]

> @Lunateric.3708 said:

> > @Kamahl.3621 said:

> > > @Lunateric.3708 said:

> > > > @Adamantium.3682 said:

> > > > It's close but not enough to be a clear winner it looks like. The change to SFL is so miniscule I wonder why they even did it. 10% on two attacks once every ~10s? That is so weak. I bet it buffs rifle with PBM better.

> > > >

> > > > SFL should just infuse your sword with light and give +10% sword damage, period.

> > >

> > > Yeah, with the new SFL you get more with PBM, the breach both builds had is more noticeable. Bottom line sword buffs are meaningless if you care for min/maxing I think, you can RP with it I guess :p.

> >

> > It's substantially better when you don't have a source of permanent quickness in the party, for what it's worth, which is quite often for most players.

>

> That's why I talk about min/maxing, for fractals, dungeons and raids you'll always have a source of quickness so there isn't any competition there. That leaves you with open world and I doubt you need any specific build for open world.

 

I think this is a stretch. I think a very small percentage of players, min-maxers or otherwise, are playing every group content instance with 100% Quickness uptime (I know you said "a source" and not full uptime but unless you're at 100% the sword build is better I think is what Kamahl was getting at).

[Lunateric.3708]

> @Adamantium.3682 said:

> > @Lunateric.3708 said:

> > > @Kamahl.3621 said:

> > > > @Lunateric.3708 said:

> > > > > @Adamantium.3682 said:

> > > > > It's close but not enough to be a clear winner it looks like. The change to SFL is so miniscule I wonder why they even did it. 10% on two attacks once every ~10s? That is so weak. I bet it buffs rifle with PBM better.

> > > > >

> > > > > SFL should just infuse your sword with light and give +10% sword damage, period.

> > > >

> > > > Yeah, with the new SFL you get more with PBM, the breach both builds had is more noticeable. Bottom line sword buffs are meaningless if you care for min/maxing I think, you can RP with it I guess :p.

> > >

> > > It's substantially better when you don't have a source of permanent quickness in the party, for what it's worth, which is quite often for most players.

> >

> > That's why I talk about min/maxing, for fractals, dungeons and raids you'll always have a source of quickness so there isn't any competition there. That leaves you with open world and I doubt you need any specific build for open world.

>

> I think this is a stretch. I think a very small percentage of players, min-maxers or otherwise, are playing every group content instance with 100% Quickness uptime (I know you said "a source" and not full uptime but unless you're at 100% the sword build is better I think is what Kamahl was getting at).

 

With Firebrand having now quite decent quickness uptime even in full DPS gear and chronos I've not had a single time running with friends or pugs where I didn't have quickness on a boss for its entirety (burst phases etc). And no, quickness uptime can be below 100% and bomb rifle still does better than sword, you just need quickness for the auto bomb segment of the rotation and maybe for jump shot (not entirely required), you spend more time in forge.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

Even on my 100% boon duration fractal chronomancer, it is rare for me to maintain permanent quickness for my teammates. On myself it is easy, but for the rest of the team, not so much. Its hard to get everyone in the wells, and sometimes the fight moves in such a manner that makes good well placement nigh impossible. Shield 5 has a narrow cone, and sometimes people end up outside of signet of inspiration's range.

 

In theory, theory and practice are the same thing. In practice... not so much.

[Jerus.4350]

I think it's important to remember that sword is half of a set where rifle is the weapon. Sword/shield is more of a hybrid weapon set than a power damage. Power damage is absolutely rifle though. Sword/shield you gain defensives and sword isn't even a pure power damage weapon as it gets so much of it's potency from the quickness uptime built in. So, yeah sword/shield, a hybrid setup, won't do the damage that our power kit + power weapon do, isn't that how it should be?

[Lunateric.3708]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> Even on my 100% boon duration fractal chronomancer, it is rare for me to maintain permanent quickness for my teammates. On myself it is easy, but for the rest of the team, not so much. Its hard to get everyone in the wells, and sometimes the fight moves in such a manner that makes good well placement nigh impossible. Shield 5 has a narrow cone, and sometimes people end up outside of signet of inspiration's range.

>

> In theory, theory and practice are the same thing. In practice... not so much.

 

I'm of course talking about practice, I do T4s +99&100CM daily, I also full clear raids on reset night, granted I almost always am with our static's chrono and have tested both builds in fractal runs last couple days several times, there's no competition if you're min/maxing for damage and people are doing their job.

[Adamantium.3682]

> @Jerus.4350 said:

> I think it's important to remember that sword is half of a set where rifle is the weapon. Sword/shield is more of a hybrid weapon set than a power damage. Power damage is absolutely rifle though. Sword/shield you gain defensives and sword isn't even a pure power damage weapon as it gets so much of it's potency from the quickness uptime built in. So, yeah sword/shield, a hybrid setup, won't do the damage that our power kit + power weapon do, isn't that how it should be?

 

No it is not how it should be. Holosmith is a fully selfish DPS spec and sword is clearly purely meant for power damage. It's a full melee weapon for a pure damage elite spec vs a core weapon that at least has an option to use range. There's no excuse for sword to be less damage.

 

As to the "half a set" part, that doesn't really matter. On rifle you use 2 skills for damage. On sword you use 2 skills for damage. The offhand is just for utility, even Blowtorch is looking like a DPS loss because it takes away from sword auto + RC chains.

[Adamantium.3682]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> Even on my 100% boon duration fractal chronomancer, it is rare for me to maintain permanent quickness for my teammates. On myself it is easy, but for the rest of the team, not so much. Its hard to get everyone in the wells, and sometimes the fight moves in such a manner that makes good well placement nigh impossible. Shield 5 has a narrow cone, and sometimes people end up outside of signet of inspiration's range.

>

> In theory, theory and practice are the same thing. In practice... not so much.

 

On top of this, even when everything is the Chrono/Firebrand's rotation is going right people still go down and need rez, get knocked back, there are phase transitions, groups split, any number of things to cause gaps in boon coverage.

 

Also (not to you, but Lunateric) you don't only need Quickness for certain attacks, I don't know where that idea came from. The more Quickness you have the more damage you are doing. Period.

[Lunateric.3708]

> @Adamantium.3682 said:

> > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > Even on my 100% boon duration fractal chronomancer, it is rare for me to maintain permanent quickness for my teammates. On myself it is easy, but for the rest of the team, not so much. Its hard to get everyone in the wells, and sometimes the fight moves in such a manner that makes good well placement nigh impossible. Shield 5 has a narrow cone, and sometimes people end up outside of signet of inspiration's range.

> >

> > In theory, theory and practice are the same thing. In practice... not so much.

>

> On top of this, even when everything is the Chrono/Firebrand's rotation is going right people still go down and need rez, get knocked back, there are phase transitions, groups split, any number of things to cause gaps in boon coverage.

>

> Also (not to you, but Lunateric) you don't only need Quickness for certain attacks, I don't know where that idea came from. The more Quickness you have the more damage you are doing. Period.

 

In the bomb kit versus sword comparison you only need quicknes while doing autos on bomb for bomb to be superior, that's a very well known fact. So for bomb and rifle to be better OVERALL, you just need quickness then. If you have more quickness or not it doesn't matter as long as it's present while doing bomb autos. Is that clear enough?

[Adamantium.3682]

> @Lunateric.3708 said:

> > @Adamantium.3682 said:

> > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > > Even on my 100% boon duration fractal chronomancer, it is rare for me to maintain permanent quickness for my teammates. On myself it is easy, but for the rest of the team, not so much. Its hard to get everyone in the wells, and sometimes the fight moves in such a manner that makes good well placement nigh impossible. Shield 5 has a narrow cone, and sometimes people end up outside of signet of inspiration's range.

> > >

> > > In theory, theory and practice are the same thing. In practice... not so much.

> >

> > On top of this, even when everything is the Chrono/Firebrand's rotation is going right people still go down and need rez, get knocked back, there are phase transitions, groups split, any number of things to cause gaps in boon coverage.

> >

> > Also (not to you, but Lunateric) you don't only need Quickness for certain attacks, I don't know where that idea came from. The more Quickness you have the more damage you are doing. Period.

>

> In the bomb kit versus sword comparison you only need quicknes while doing autos on bomb for bomb to be superior, that's a very well known fact. So for bomb and rifle to be better OVERALL, you just need quickness then. If you have more quickness or not it doesn't matter as long as it's present while doing bomb autos. Is that clear enough?

 

No it isn't clear enough, because I don't think you're coming to the right conclusion of the two scenarios. Please don't use the term "well known fact" when the patch dropped 48 hours ago. It's obnoxious.

 

1. With bombs/rifle build you only get enough quickness from group for using bombs. You don't have quickness for any PF attacks.

2. With sword build you only get enough quickness from group for sword attacks. However you can supply extra quickness to yourself to cover all of the time spent in PF.

 

I believe what Blood Red Arachnid and Kamahl are saying, which I agree with, is that option 2 wins that dps race every time.

[Lunateric.3708]

> @Adamantium.3682 said:

> > @Lunateric.3708 said:

> > > @Adamantium.3682 said:

> > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > > > Even on my 100% boon duration fractal chronomancer, it is rare for me to maintain permanent quickness for my teammates. On myself it is easy, but for the rest of the team, not so much. Its hard to get everyone in the wells, and sometimes the fight moves in such a manner that makes good well placement nigh impossible. Shield 5 has a narrow cone, and sometimes people end up outside of signet of inspiration's range.

> > > >

> > > > In theory, theory and practice are the same thing. In practice... not so much.

> > >

> > > On top of this, even when everything is the Chrono/Firebrand's rotation is going right people still go down and need rez, get knocked back, there are phase transitions, groups split, any number of things to cause gaps in boon coverage.

> > >

> > > Also (not to you, but Lunateric) you don't only need Quickness for certain attacks, I don't know where that idea came from. The more Quickness you have the more damage you are doing. Period.

> >

> > In the bomb kit versus sword comparison you only need quicknes while doing autos on bomb for bomb to be superior, that's a very well known fact. So for bomb and rifle to be better OVERALL, you just need quickness then. If you have more quickness or not it doesn't matter as long as it's present while doing bomb autos. Is that clear enough?

>

> No it isn't clear enough, because I don't think you're coming to the right conclusion of the two scenarios. Please don't use the term "well known fact" when the patch dropped 48 hours ago. It's obnoxious.

>

> 1. With bombs/rifle build you only get enough quickness from group for using bombs. You don't have quickness for any PF attacks.

> 2. With sword build you only get enough quickness from group for sword attacks. However you can supply extra quickness to yourself to cover all of the time spent in PF.

>

> I believe what Blood Red Arachnid and Kamahl are saying, which I agree with, is that option 2 wins that dps race every time.

 

Think this is going in circles, there may be a better build out there using sword but whatever was discussed here isn't it.

[Kamahl.3621]

Considering my average with sword was about ~31k and PBM was ~32k, it's not so bad considering suddenly sword pulls ahead by a fat chunk the moment your quickness-bot isn't around. Infinitely better for PUGs and such as a result.

 

Edit: Also you'd use the Static Discharge build, since the quickness gained from the grandmaster trait is enough to give you prolonged bursts of quickness. That build was putting out about ~29.5k on average with perma-quickness, so I'd only assume it extends further in real scenarios, especially since you'd actually be dodging and gaining the 10% damage buff infrequently.

[insanemaniac.2456]

there is no greater challenge than pugging. anything good for pugging deserves its own special niche.

[pyewacket.1807]

Okay, so i guess i'am off to sword then, or rather back to. Because pugging is the only thing i do. :p