Thoughts on Mesmer changes?

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @jonG.8369 said:

> > @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

> > Axe 2 feels more clunky than ever to me.

> > Axe 3 still bugs on uneven terrain.

> > Staff ambush and illusionary ambush are good now.

> >

> > Also good to know ANet actually reads mesmers forums, since they introduce the exhaustion mechanic someone suggested, even if they don't give anything for mesmers themselves...

> >

>

> Axe 2 feels really bad now. Surprised no one else has mentioned it.

 

Yeah, I'm not feeling that 1/4s cooldown.

[Refia Montes.3205]

I'm happy that Mirage is now a top tier DPS pick with the Axe Ambush buff and bug fix.

 

 

I'm sad that I fear that this will end abruptly next patch... Now I feel what the Scourges felt.

[musu.9205]

> @"Refia Montes.3205" said:

> I'm happy that Mirage is now a top tier DPS pick with the Axe Ambush buff and bug fix.

>

>

> I'm sad that I fear that this will end abruptly next patch... Now I feel what the Scourges felt.

 

well tbh all other op condi specs are nerfed in this patch . they could nerf bleed from duel line a bit .we are not those AI Build anymore except maybe matt but we dont need help there so its fair .

with ps nerf . might stack scourge might be a thing again

[Refia Montes.3205]

> @musu.9205 said:

> > @"Refia Montes.3205" said:

> > I'm happy that Mirage is now a top tier DPS pick with the Axe Ambush buff and bug fix.

> >

> >

> > I'm sad that I fear that this will end abruptly next patch... Now I feel what the Scourges felt.

>

> well tbh all other op condi specs are nerfed in this patch . they could nerf bleed from duel line a bit .we are not those AI Build anymore except maybe matt but we dont need help there so its fair .

> with ps nerf . might stack scourge might be a thing again

 

You don't understand, all classes are supposed to be nerfed by 10% if left untouched. But the Axe ambush and bug fix, pushed the clone IH build significantly, that it gets to 40k DPS. From what I've heard other classes are now around 35k~ which is fine. It's not gonna be long till Mirage becomes a meta pick for most single target bosses, and also pretty good for AoE, since Axe clones do cleave.

 

[musu.9205]

> @"Refia Montes.3205" said:

> > @musu.9205 said:

> > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said:

> > > I'm happy that Mirage is now a top tier DPS pick with the Axe Ambush buff and bug fix.

> > >

> > >

> > > I'm sad that I fear that this will end abruptly next patch... Now I feel what the Scourges felt.

> >

> > well tbh all other op condi specs are nerfed in this patch . they could nerf bleed from duel line a bit .we are not those AI Build anymore except maybe matt but we dont need help there so its fair .

> > with ps nerf . might stack scourge might be a thing again

>

> You don't understand, all classes are supposed to be nerfed by 10% if left untouched. But the Axe ambush and bug fix, pushed the clone IH build significantly, that it gets to 40k DPS. From what I've heard other classes are now around 35k~ which is fine. It's not gonna be long till Mirage becomes a meta pick for most single target bosses, and also pretty good for AoE, since Axe clones do cleave.

>

 

i think you misunderstood , im fully aware mirage is top tier dps now .that's why i said they could nerf bleed from duel line to bring it on line with other classes . we just need a good dps build( we probly have two now ). let ele have their throne for dps . as long as its not 10k ahead .

[musu.9205]

> @Zenith.7301 said:

> You'll still have warrior in a raid. They just won't be PS. Banners are still immense utility, and EA is still strong in the power subgroup.

>

> Even if mirage ends up in a solid DPS spot with the current clone build, the patch notes took 6 weeks to deliver and all we got were numerical adjustments to axe.

>

> Now you spawn clones and don't use your phantasms, which leads to the nonsensical equipping of an offhand sword for fencer's finesse, because our traitlines are pretty terrible for condi builds.

>

> Our mechanics are still in shambles. We do not want to use shatters because they hurt DPS, we didn't want to use clones because they hurt DPS, and now we use clones but not phantasms because the phantasms hurt DPS.

>

> It's just broken mechanics that did not get addressed at all. They need to incentivize shatters and retool phantasms some way so we use the entirety of our class mechanic and toolkit...

>

> Utilities are still largely underpowered, and moa signet has a humongous cooldown in PvE for no reason.

 

they could buff illusion line in pve so we can enjoy torment stack from shatter .

[Refia Montes.3205]

> @musu.9205 said:

> > @"Refia Montes.3205" said:

> > > @musu.9205 said:

> > > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said:

> > > > I'm happy that Mirage is now a top tier DPS pick with the Axe Ambush buff and bug fix.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > I'm sad that I fear that this will end abruptly next patch... Now I feel what the Scourges felt.

> > >

> > > well tbh all other op condi specs are nerfed in this patch . they could nerf bleed from duel line a bit .we are not those AI Build anymore except maybe matt but we dont need help there so its fair .

> > > with ps nerf . might stack scourge might be a thing again

> >

> > You don't understand, all classes are supposed to be nerfed by 10% if left untouched. But the Axe ambush and bug fix, pushed the clone IH build significantly, that it gets to 40k DPS. From what I've heard other classes are now around 35k~ which is fine. It's not gonna be long till Mirage becomes a meta pick for most single target bosses, and also pretty good for AoE, since Axe clones do cleave.

> >

>

> i think you misunderstood , im fully aware mirage is top tier dps now .that's why i said they could nerf bleed from duel line to bring it on line with other classes . we just need a good dps build( we probly have two now ). let ele have their throne for dps . as long as its not 10k ahead .

 

Oh gotcha.

[Refia Montes.3205]

> @musu.9205 said:

> > @"Refia Montes.3205" said:

> > > @musu.9205 said:

> > > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said:

> > > > I'm happy that Mirage is now a top tier DPS pick with the Axe Ambush buff and bug fix.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > I'm sad that I fear that this will end abruptly next patch... Now I feel what the Scourges felt.

> > >

> > > well tbh all other op condi specs are nerfed in this patch . they could nerf bleed from duel line a bit .we are not those AI Build anymore except maybe matt but we dont need help there so its fair .

> > > with ps nerf . might stack scourge might be a thing again

> >

> > You don't understand, all classes are supposed to be nerfed by 10% if left untouched. But the Axe ambush and bug fix, pushed the clone IH build significantly, that it gets to 40k DPS. From what I've heard other classes are now around 35k~ which is fine. It's not gonna be long till Mirage becomes a meta pick for most single target bosses, and also pretty good for AoE, since Axe clones do cleave.

> >

>

> i think you misunderstood , im fully aware mirage is top tier dps now .that's why i said they could nerf bleed from duel line to bring it on line with other classes . we just need a good dps build( we probly have two now ). let ele have their throne for dps . as long as its not 10k ahead .

 

I think nerfing Sharper Images isn't the right way to decrease the potential DPS. That would hurt the Pistol Phantasm build really hard. I think the nerfs should be directed at the Ambush itself, since it's the only reason the whole thing got carried high up.

[musu.9205]

> @"Refia Montes.3205" said:

> > @musu.9205 said:

> > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said:

> > > > @musu.9205 said:

> > > > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said:

> > > > > I'm happy that Mirage is now a top tier DPS pick with the Axe Ambush buff and bug fix.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm sad that I fear that this will end abruptly next patch... Now I feel what the Scourges felt.

> > > >

> > > > well tbh all other op condi specs are nerfed in this patch . they could nerf bleed from duel line a bit .we are not those AI Build anymore except maybe matt but we dont need help there so its fair .

> > > > with ps nerf . might stack scourge might be a thing again

> > >

> > > You don't understand, all classes are supposed to be nerfed by 10% if left untouched. But the Axe ambush and bug fix, pushed the clone IH build significantly, that it gets to 40k DPS. From what I've heard other classes are now around 35k~ which is fine. It's not gonna be long till Mirage becomes a meta pick for most single target bosses, and also pretty good for AoE, since Axe clones do cleave.

> > >

> >

> > i think you misunderstood , im fully aware mirage is top tier dps now .that's why i said they could nerf bleed from duel line to bring it on line with other classes . we just need a good dps build( we probly have two now ). let ele have their throne for dps . as long as its not 10k ahead .

>

> I think nerfing Sharper Images isn't the right way to decrease the potential DPS. That would hurt the Pistol Phantasm build really hard. I think the nerfs should be directed at the Ambush itself, since it's the only reason the whole thing got carried high up.

 

well the way i view it is duel line shouldn't be main source of our condi dmg .they could nerf SI and add bleed to iduelist itself .but less duration .

[Cantatus.4065]

The change to Illusionary Ambush is really nice since makes it useful for both melee and ranged weapons. It does seem to keep me at range with ranged weapons and close with melee weapons - most of the time. It still can be unreliable. I had it literally put me under the patriarch in VB when using a staff and then in the middle of nowhere while using a sword (though it does look like it won't put you as far away as it used to).

 

Another good thing, Axes of Symmetry doesn't mess up much anymore that I could find if you're far away from your target. From my testing, I never had it land me out of range no matter how far I was from the target whereas I used to be able to reliably replicate it missing just by standing near max range. That is, unless you are on a different z-axis, then things get wonky again. (Not sure why Mirage Advance can work with z-axis perfectly, but AoS can't when they're basically doing the same thing.) I also like the camera repositioning. I sort of with Lingering Thoughts did the same thing.

 

Speaking of which, not wild about the 1/4 sec cooldown on LT. If the problem was skills being delayed by the axe autoattack's sequence, then any further change beyond that was unnecessary. The whole reason people were accidentally using the second charge was because you had to hit the skill multiple times to get it to work. Adding in a 1/4 reuse time just made is so instead of repeatedly hitting 2 to get it to go off the first time, you're doing it for the second charge. They just removed one part of the clunkiness and introduced a new one and now it feels even less fluid than it did.

[Kas.3509]

Well at least now you can choose between clones or phantasms for ok damage. I dont think mirage is top tier dmg though.

 

What I would like is for them to solve problems of clones vs phantasms and that shattering is never worth it problem... : P Hope some dev will respond that they are at least looking into this.

 

Another thing is...

Axe 2. I am happy with most of changes but Axe 2 change is something I do not like. I think most people casted Axe2 instantly twice ON PURPOSE... : <

Now we can't. It generates 2 clones so you can really fast use your 3 afterwards for more conditions. Now the wait in betweeen is kinda frustrating for me.

Love the changes one Axe 3 though.

[JanTar.5961]

I'm exclusively a PvE player and I'm overall pleased with the changes made to mesmer. The only thing that bothers me is Axe 2. We were given the freedom fix from "animation hang-ups" but the freedom was immediately taken from us with the "0.25-second recharge between uses of this skill to prevent accidental double use". I feel that the only reason there were accidental double uses were the animation hang-ups that should now be fixed. I loved that i could queue Axe 2 one after the other, now I just find myself standing there after the first one expecting to be whirled back through the mob but that never comes, because it's not queued.

[Miroe.2054]

So happy my build is here to stay. At least for a while longer that is. Adding the UI effects is an elegant solution to make the Mirage a less sublte elite spec without having to change something mechanically. The Quality of life improvements are a big deal to me because I'm embracing the thief playstyle with lots of shadowsteps and dodges and it helps me track my own position a bit better now. The axe buff hopefully lets Axe be more of a PvP consideration. I would use it anyway.

 

I had liked to see illusionists celerity working for mirage advance. And I had liked to see The Traveller rune stats matching the description. But I can wait for another day.

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @JanTar.5961 said:

> I'm exclusively a PvE player and I'm overall pleased with the changes made to mesmer. The only thing that bothers me is Axe 2. We were given the freedom fix from "animation hang-ups" but the freedom was immediately taken from us with the "0.25-second recharge between uses of this skill to prevent accidental double use". I feel that the only reason there were accidental double uses were the animation hang-ups that should now be fixed. I loved that i could queue Axe 2 one after the other, now I just find myself standing there after the first one expecting to be whirled back through the mob but that never comes, because it's not queued.

 

I really hope they revert this change. It definitely makes axe feel worse than before, even if the numbers come out better due to other fixes.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

> @AliamRationem.5172 said:

> > @JanTar.5961 said:

> > I'm exclusively a PvE player and I'm overall pleased with the changes made to mesmer. The only thing that bothers me is Axe 2. We were given the freedom fix from "animation hang-ups" but the freedom was immediately taken from us with the "0.25-second recharge between uses of this skill to prevent accidental double use". I feel that the only reason there were accidental double uses were the animation hang-ups that should now be fixed. I loved that i could queue Axe 2 one after the other, now I just find myself standing there after the first one expecting to be whirled back through the mob but that never comes, because it's not queued.

>

> I really hope they revert this change. It definitely makes axe feel worse than before, even if the numbers come out better due to other fixes.

 

This, revert Axe 2.

You could cover the skill using one evade, now you can't. It was used to quickly setup 2 illusions which now you can't do. Not only is it worse now but it feels more clunky too.

[OriOri.8724]

> @"Vieux P.1238" said:

> Ok, so yes we did have some great improvements. I did the cast reduction on the Phant.Berzerker. Feels more fluid. Axe got improved. Lots of bleeds. **Overall mesmer feels better.** **Here's the bad news. ****We are at the bottom from** **All other classes** . All other classes got tweaked up & basically are next to impossible to kill. I tried different builds vs most classes & gawd kitten they can hold there own vs mesmer mirage. Mind that i've been testing power build. Has anyone tested condi yet?

 

A lot of builds for other classes actually got nerfed

[OriOri.8724]

> @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > @apharma.3741 said:

> > My thoughts in roughly the order I had them:

> >

> > "That's a small section"

> > "axe...stuff I don't care about...more stuff I don't care about"

> > "Chrono is still meta for raids"

> > "Lets see how savage this PS war nerf was"

> > "Holy cow that balanced stance nerf was savage!"

>

> Pretty much how I went through the patch notes.

>

> Most people don't seem to realise how big the "no changes" to chrono is given that PS warrior got removed from raids and druids GotL was changed making them too less required for a raid setup. 1 druid will probably be meta for 25 raid might.

>

> To be honest though, if you do not distort, even dual chrono is not required any longer. Firebrand+Renegade can easily replace the 2nd chrono now.

>

> Overall dps spots in raid groups have likely increased to 5 or even 6 dps from 4.

 

I wouldn't expect chrono to keep that spot past the next few balance patches honestly. This patch showed that ANet is actually willing to shake things up in order to remove "mandatory" spots from raid groups. Right now the only things truly unique that chrono can bring are portal, distortion share, and SoI. Like you mentioned, other classes can easily replace permanent quickness, and renegades can provide high uptimes on alacrity, so you no longer need a chrono for that. The only other unique things that chrono brings are all core mesmer mechanics. With a few more tweaks by Anet, chrono could be in a place where its current role is spread out among 3-4 other people who are mostly DPS builds. It would probably remain the most efficient way to get all of that at once, but would no longer be required for it.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @OriOri.8724 said:

> > @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > > @apharma.3741 said:

> > > My thoughts in roughly the order I had them:

> > >

> > > "That's a small section"

> > > "axe...stuff I don't care about...more stuff I don't care about"

> > > "Chrono is still meta for raids"

> > > "Lets see how savage this PS war nerf was"

> > > "Holy cow that balanced stance nerf was savage!"

> >

> > Pretty much how I went through the patch notes.

> >

> > Most people don't seem to realise how big the "no changes" to chrono is given that PS warrior got removed from raids and druids GotL was changed making them too less required for a raid setup. 1 druid will probably be meta for 25 raid might.

> >

> > To be honest though, if you do not distort, even dual chrono is not required any longer. Firebrand+Renegade can easily replace the 2nd chrono now.

> >

> > Overall dps spots in raid groups have likely increased to 5 or even 6 dps from 4.

>

> I wouldn't expect chrono to keep that spot past the next few balance patches honestly. This patch showed that ANet is actually willing to shake things up in order to remove "mandatory" spots from raid groups. Right now the only things truly unique that chrono can bring are portal, distortion share, and SoI. Like you mentioned, other classes can easily replace permanent quickness, and renegades can provide high uptimes on alacrity, so you no longer need a chrono for that. The only other unique things that chrono brings are all core mesmer mechanics. With a few more tweaks by Anet, chrono could be in a place where its current role is spread out among 3-4 other people who are mostly DPS builds. It would probably remain the most efficient way to get all of that at once, but would no longer be required for it.

 

Oh I agree. I was absolutely expecting them to gut chrono this time around. My assumption is that actually changing chrono without totally removing mesmer from the game was to difficult this close after the PoF release. Since the main reason for chrono now is distrotion share which fits thematicall with mesmer. Removing that would mean they would have to redo our class from scratch in so many areas.

 

I do think chrono is less of an issue now though since one of them can already be repleaced by firebrand plus renegade and with less dedicated spots now more variety is availalbe anyway. With 10 classes, there always will be 1 class which gets 2 spots.

 

That said, I do think we need to wait for a new meta to develope. Everything seems to point towards less support and more damage classes tagging along or at least damage classes which also offer support (something mesmer for example can't do, no matter which elite).

[OriOri.8724]

The thing that worries me though is that chrono brings nothing but these mechanics. The only things that chrono brings that core mesmer doesn't is personal sustain, quickness, and alacrity. Large access to Quickness and alacrity are no longer unique to it, and the personal sustain isn't an issue in organized raids. So nerfing chrono at all may as well remove it entirely, since its own DPS is so minimal and it no longer brings anything unique to raids.

[Draksis.2648]

> @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

> > @Draksis.2648 said:

> > Happy as a clam. No nerfs, QoL changes (that pBerserker's cast time is simply scrumptious), and general attempt on making the class feel smoother as a whole. Lord knows we're used to a lot less.

>

> Just FYI, the zerker change is undoing a ninja-nerf from when they added the utterly useless projectile attack on it.

 

Oh, no, I remember that. Just simply happy they did a revert, like the time they buffed our Mirror Blade with an extra bounce due to getting rid of Illusionary Elasticity, then they took it away, then put it back up. :)

 

Again, I'm just glad we weren't gutted outright for no specific reason.

[apharma.3741]

> @OriOri.8724 said:

> The thing that worries me though is that chrono brings nothing but these mechanics. The only things that chrono brings that core mesmer doesn't is personal sustain, quickness, and alacrity. Large access to Quickness and alacrity are no longer unique to it, and the personal sustain isn't an issue in organized raids. So nerfing chrono at all may as well remove it entirely, since its own DPS is so minimal and it no longer brings anything unique to raids.

 

Chrono brings both alacrity and quickness at the same time in 1 package but also brings on demand CC as well as a few other beneficial aspects like boon removal, well of precog, reflects, pulls and a whole host of other utility benefits. Sure most are core mesmer abilities but it’s about role consolidation more than what one trait line gives and right now chrono gives far more utility than any other class.

 

You can run a 2 chronos, 2 druids and a single dps warrior with 5 other dps having 6 slots consolidated into 4 giving 2 more spots to dps classes. You could possibly run a minstrel chrono, normal chrono, single druid which provides healing, might stacking and spirits and a CPS warrior to top off on might and banners and have 6 spots entirely focused on high dps. Imagine 6 fully buffed good weavers on gorse always, it would melt.

 

I think the firebrand + renegade is decent but imo it’s just not quite as good as a single chrono can be.

[OriOri.8724]

Its not quite as good, but I don't really expect that to last past a few more balance patches honestly.

[Pyroatheist.9031]

> @OriOri.8724 said:

> Its not quite as good, but I don't really expect that to last past a few more balance patches honestly.

 

Well, that's fine. A few more balance patches should get us about a year and a half of play time.

[Levetty.1279]

Looking at Mesmer patches over the years and the whole mess that is Mirage, its quite obvious Anet doesn't understand Mesmer and doesn't really know how it works. Funnily enough I think that is the only thing that saved Chrono this patch, they have no idea how to reduce the role of Chrono without just gutting the class or even outright removing skills/traits/mechanics from it.

 

Also while everybody complains about how important Chronos are to raids they also want their sweet sweet Alacrity and distortion. If Anet listened to them and removed Chrono they would scream bloody murder as now they have to deal with tanking, avoiding boss mechanics, attacking at normal speed and dealing with cds.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @Levetty.1279 said:

> Looking at Mesmer patches over the years and the whole mess that is Mirage, its quite obvious Anet doesn't understand Mesmer and doesn't really know how it works. Funnily enough I think that is the only thing that saved Chrono this patch, they have no idea how to reduce the role of Chrono without just gutting the class or even outright removing skills/traits/mechanics from it.

>

> Also while everybody complains about how important Chronos are to raids they also want their sweet sweet Alacrity and distortion. If Anet listened to them and removed Chrono they would scream bloody murder as now they have to deal with tanking, avoiding boss mechanics, attacking at normal speed and dealing with cds.

 

Yeah, my sentiment exactly.

 

The unique mechanics which make chrono so strong are so interwoven that changing or removing them would leave mesmer in an even worse state than necromancer as far as fixing goes. Makes sense that the balance team doesn't want to do that just yet (or hopefully at all. I mean bosses can be designed with distortion in mind).