Abakk.9176 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 > @Feanor.2358 said: > > @Abakk.9176 said: > > At the end of my leveling process i am geared by the game i play and ready to enter endgame. So it is basically the games way i am going to play. > > No, you really aren't. > > > @Abakk.9176 said: > > But apparantly i should have studied certain laws and mechanics through whatever obscure means that are imposed on me by some gang that uses 3rd party software to spy on me and hinder me in going any further if i refuse their rogue laws. > > That's the thing, levelling can only teach you that much about certain mechanics, namely the combat mechanics of the game. Out of necessity, the levelling process is easy enough so it never really pushes you to actually learn the game. Hence, you definitely aren't ready to plunge into the endgame by this point. You're not even at the point where the 3rd party software becomes useful. > > On a side note, I really love how people complaining about their way of play being rejected very strongly imply their way of play is the "right" one, effectively rejecting every other approach to the game. Hilarious, really. What is hilarious is that entire games are hijacked by organised gangs using 3rd party software to impose their will and the claim it is the proper way. And all to stroke their own vanity and to preserve 'their precious time'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 > @Abakk.9176 said: > Its a problem that is caused by people that couldn't care less who they insult and damage in order to get **what THEY want**. That is why it is **MY OPINION** that it should not be allowed in MMORPG's. But that's the other way around. It's those who join groups clearly not for them, either because they are terrible or because they -think- they are good, but they are not, that cause the problem in the first place. That's not a problem caused by DPS-meters, in fact DPS-meters help solve the problem so they should be endorsed by every MMORPG out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 > @Abakk.9176 said: > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > > @Abakk.9176 said: > > > At the end of my leveling process i am geared by the game i play and ready to enter endgame. So it is basically the games way i am going to play. > > > > No, you really aren't. > > > > > @Abakk.9176 said: > > > But apparantly i should have studied certain laws and mechanics through whatever obscure means that are imposed on me by some gang that uses 3rd party software to spy on me and hinder me in going any further if i refuse their rogue laws. > > > > That's the thing, levelling can only teach you that much about certain mechanics, namely the combat mechanics of the game. Out of necessity, the levelling process is easy enough so it never really pushes you to actually learn the game. Hence, you definitely aren't ready to plunge into the endgame by this point. You're not even at the point where the 3rd party software becomes useful. > > > > On a side note, I really love how people complaining about their way of play being rejected very strongly imply their way of play is the "right" one, effectively rejecting every other approach to the game. Hilarious, really. > > What is hilarious is that entire games are hijacked by organised gangs using 3rd party software to impose their will and the claim it is the proper way. And all to stroke their own vanity and to preserve 'their precious time'. Your read of it is certainly hilarious, if utterly wrong. Thanks for the laugh, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 > @Abakk.9176 said: > What is hilarious is that entire games are hijacked by organised gangs using 3rd party software to impose their will and the claim it is the proper way. And all to stroke their own vanity and to preserve 'their precious time'. Yes my time is precious for me, and I want to choose how to spend my time, the way I want, and nobody can say otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abakk.9176 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 > @Coconut.7082 said: > > @Abakk.9176 said: > > > @Coconut.7082 said: > > > > @Abakk.9176 said: > > > > > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > > > > > @Abakk.9176 said: > > > > > > DPS-meters spying on others are an affront. The data is used to harass other players and that disgusts me in a way i can't even express in nice wording. > > > > > > > > > > DPS-meter data is used to filter out players that do not know how to read and join groups that aren't meant for them. That's not a problem caused by the meters. > > > > > > > > Exactly! > > > > > > > > Its a problem that is caused by people that couldn't care less who they insult and damage in order to get **what THEY want**. That is why it is **MY OPINION** that it should not be allowed in MMORPG's. > > > > > > So those people should be able to force themselves on a group they "don't fit in", basically wasting a whole group's time to get **what THEY want**? > > > > > > It goes both ways you know: players who join groups while lying about their experience or not answering the group's requirements are damaging the game! That's why I think casual play should not be allowed n MMORPG's. > > > > People should be able to play by whatever means as long as it isn't through harassment. Using DPS-meters to spy on, and call out people is what i call harassment. > > > > > > > > > > Lying your way into a group and wasting other people's time is what I call harassment, is that fine? Organising a group of like minded people is a process that may take some skill in the ways of communication. I iunderstand that simply talking to eachother and getting to know the players around you is frowned upon but we are still humans and not network computers. People that pretend to posess the requirements or behave in a bad way are slowly filtered out by the bad reputation they build for themselves. Your contact list is your friend in this and that is how healthy communities are built. Skipping all that by using DPS-meters and similar addons to stomp through players klike an elephant in a china shop is not how you build a decent community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 > @Abakk.9176 said: > People that pretend to posess the requirements or behave in a bad way are slowly filtered out by the bad reputation they build for themselves. Why take it "slowly"? An addition of a helpful tool that finishes the job in a couple of minutes saves everyone's time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abakk.9176 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > @Abakk.9176 said: > > What is hilarious is that entire games are hijacked by organised gangs using 3rd party software to impose their will and the claim it is the proper way. And all to stroke their own vanity and to preserve 'their precious time'. > > Yes my time is precious for me, and I want to choose how to spend my time, the way I want, and nobody can say otherwise. Regardless, you should not be allowed to do unto others what you dislike yourself by using DPS-meters or similar programs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abakk.9176 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > @Abakk.9176 said: > > People that pretend to posess the requirements or behave in a bad way are slowly filtered out by the bad reputation they build for themselves. > > Why take it "slowly"? An addition of a helpful tool that finishes the job in a couple of minutes saves everyone's time. It only 'saves' your time at the expense of many other people. It's wrong and shouldn't be allowed. DPS-meters and similar software is not a good substitute for healthy communication and community building. It's rarely used in a responsible way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coconut.7082 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 > @Abakk.9176 said: > > @Coconut.7082 said: > > > @Abakk.9176 said: > > > > @Coconut.7082 said: > > > > > @Abakk.9176 said: > > > > > > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > > > > > > @Abakk.9176 said: > > > > > > > DPS-meters spying on others are an affront. The data is used to harass other players and that disgusts me in a way i can't even express in nice wording. > > > > > > > > > > > > DPS-meter data is used to filter out players that do not know how to read and join groups that aren't meant for them. That's not a problem caused by the meters. > > > > > > > > > > Exactly! > > > > > > > > > > Its a problem that is caused by people that couldn't care less who they insult and damage in order to get **what THEY want**. That is why it is **MY OPINION** that it should not be allowed in MMORPG's. > > > > > > > > So those people should be able to force themselves on a group they "don't fit in", basically wasting a whole group's time to get **what THEY want**? > > > > > > > > It goes both ways you know: players who join groups while lying about their experience or not answering the group's requirements are damaging the game! That's why I think casual play should not be allowed n MMORPG's. > > > > > > People should be able to play by whatever means as long as it isn't through harassment. Using DPS-meters to spy on, and call out people is what i call harassment. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lying your way into a group and wasting other people's time is what I call harassment, is that fine? > > Organising a group of like minded people is a process that may take some skill in the ways of communication. I iunderstand that simply talking to eachother and getting to know the players around you is frowned upon but we are still humans and not network computers. > > People that pretend to posess the requirements or behave in a bad way are slowly filtered out by the bad reputation they build for themselves. > > Your contact list is your friend in this and that is how healthy communities are built. > > Skipping all that by using DPS-meters and similar addons to stomp through players klike an elephant in a china shop is not how you build a decent community. Talking? I don't negotiate with liars. Also, from my experience, those people, along with many of the "anti-dps-anti-meta" players tend to ignore communications entirely in many cases, even when you are trying to help them or just asking for a simple thing (E.G switch 1 skill in their special build, that can make the encounter way easier, etc'). I am a busy person, why would I wan't to "filter" slowly? My contact list/guild are perfectly fine, thanks for asking, I tend to use it as much as I can but unfortunately in some occasions LFG is the only option. Why don't you use your contact list to find like minded people who don't use DPS meters? No one is skipping anything by DPS meters, believe or not, some of us don't need DPS meters to see if a players is not "fit" for the group / lying to the group / not communicating / has no idea what he's doing and so on, DPS meter can make it simpler in some cases, but it's not the purpose of it. But who am I to try and explain stuff to someone who is offended by the phrase "DPS"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 > @Abakk.9176 said: > > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > > @Abakk.9176 said: > > > What is hilarious is that entire games are hijacked by organised gangs using 3rd party software to impose their will and the claim it is the proper way. And all to stroke their own vanity and to preserve 'their precious time'. > > > > Yes my time is precious for me, and I want to choose how to spend my time, the way I want, and nobody can say otherwise. > > Regardless, you should not be allowed to do unto others what you dislike yourself by using DPS-meters or similar programs. You are mistaken. It's my time and I should be allowed to spend it the way I want to spend it, there is no other way around it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 > @Abakk.9176 said: > DPS-meters and similar software is not a good substitute for healthy communication and community building. It's rarely used in a responsible way. Being a liar (or someone with illusions of grandeur) is not good for healthy communication and community building. Liars rarely behave in a responsible way and are the root of the problem. Meters help sort them out. Saving the time of good people by punishing the bad people is not such a terrible thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abakk.9176 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > @Abakk.9176 said: > > DPS-meters and similar software is not a good substitute for healthy communication and community building. It's rarely used in a responsible way. > > Being a liar (or someone with illusions of grandeur) is not good for healthy communication and community building. Liars rarely behave in a responsible way and are the root of the problem. Meters help sort them out. Saving the time of good people by punishing the bad people is not such a terrible thing. You create the very players that you try to weed out by the toxic shortcut you use. Your rampant addons will continue to poison the games you infest with it until you have nothing left worth calling a community. There are no 'good people' whose time needs to be saved. There are only people that claw their way ahead at the expense of others and the environment. This game can still be saved from that by a few simple lines of code that prevent the extraction of certain data. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 > @Abakk.9176 said: > > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > > @Abakk.9176 said: > > > What is hilarious is that entire games are hijacked by organised gangs using 3rd party software to impose their will and the claim it is the proper way. And all to stroke their own vanity and to preserve 'their precious time'. > > > > Yes my time is precious for me, and I want to choose how to spend my time, the way I want, and nobody can say otherwise. > > Regardless, you should not be allowed to do unto others what you dislike yourself by using DPS-meters or similar programs. Regardless, you should not be allowed to waste other people's time. As it isn't yours to waste, you know. Get the gist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fermi.2409 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 >@Panda >Before I had no issues finding parties, now i can't get a group for anything unless I give in and switch to a kitten meta build. Yet I routinely and easily join groups on things like Power Necro without a problem. It seems like the problem might be the common denominator, not the groups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 > @Abakk.9176 said: > You create the very players that you try to weed out by the toxic shortcut you use. Let's see the 4 types of players affected: Those with illusions of grandeur: someone who thinks is a good player, but is not, that gets consistently kicked, will figure it out eventually that in reality they are not as good as they might think. Then they have the choice of training and getting better. The shy/silent that are hiding their actual build: those who do not communicate might figure out that if they do they won't be kicked anymore. If that Auramancer specified he is an Auramancer before the run he wouldn't be kicked "for low DPS". Maybe instead he would be praised for amazing healing ;) The freeloaders: those who join groups expecting to be carried will always exist and it's much harder to deal with those. Fortunately I don't think they are that many, so it's not such a big deal. The trolls: those self-proclaimed "elite players" who join casual runs and kick others "for low dps" need to be identified, reported for LFG abuse and then dealt with, they are trolls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coconut.7082 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 > @Abakk.9176 said: > > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > > @Abakk.9176 said: > > > DPS-meters and similar software is not a good substitute for healthy communication and community building. It's rarely used in a responsible way. > > > > Being a liar (or someone with illusions of grandeur) is not good for healthy communication and community building. Liars rarely behave in a responsible way and are the root of the problem. Meters help sort them out. Saving the time of good people by punishing the bad people is not such a terrible thing. > > You create the very players that you try to weed out by the toxic shortcut you use. Your rampant addons will continue to poison the games you infest with it until you have nothing left worth calling a community. > > There are no 'good people' whose time needs to be saved. There are only people that claw their way ahead at the expense of others and the environment. > > This game can still be saved from that by a few simple lines of code that prevent the extraction of certain data. Lol, who are you to decide who are the "good people" and who's time needs to be saved? You are not entitled to anyone's time. I payed for this game and I can play however I want. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koyomi.1378 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 Players being fast and min maxing the group's dps aren't doing it at your cost, you're the one getting in their way, make your own lfg and make sure it's advertised as casual and u won't have problems, personally my experience is bad players with bad builds joining my meta group and being surprised when i kick them, no, sorry but giving me protection isn't what's asked of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abakk.9176 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > @Abakk.9176 said: > > You create the very players that you try to weed out by the toxic shortcut you use. > > Let's see the 4 types of players affected: > Those with illusions of grandeur: someone who thinks is a good player, but is not, that gets consistently kicked, will figure it out eventually that in reality they are not as good as they might think. Then they have the choice of training and getting better. > The shy/silent that are hiding their actual build: those who do not communicate might figure out that if they do they won't be kicked anymore. If that Auramancer specified he is an Auramancer before the run he wouldn't be kicked "for low DPS". Maybe instead he would be praised for amazing healing ;) > The freeloaders: those who join groups expecting to be carried will always exist and it's much harder to deal with those. Fortunately I don't think they are that many, so it's not such a big deal. > The trolls: those self-proclaimed "elite players" who join casual runs and kick others "for low dps" need to be identified, reported for LFG abuse and then dealt with, they are trolls. You can cherrypick a single line and harp on it whatever you want. You cannot convince/persuade me that your spyware is the way to go. We are all equal, no matter what pixels we wear. I've witnessed the very process of destruction i talk about over a period of several years and watched a nice community fall apart into egoistic selfserving toxic mobs, kicking everything and everyone they think stands in their way to personal fame and glory. There is no way to justify such a waste and misbehavior. The way to prevent it starts, in my opinion, at not allowing 3rd party software to rule a game. The game doesn't need it and the players even less so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faaris.8013 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 > @Koyomi.1378 said: > >So again: DPS-meter addons in an MMORPG = NO! > Do you play mmo's at such a low level? Most mmo's have extensive third party add on's To a point that when the developers ban those third party tools, they harm their own business because people simply leave. Some third party tools merely add features to games that should be standard features in the first place, often they simply save you a lot of clicking or micro-managing or enhance the UI with additional information. The crowd sometimes knows better what a game needs, and (independent) developers create tools in their freetime that add value and fill a gap. If the company had the time and resources, many of these features would be in the game already. We have such an example right at hand. The developer of Arcdps got the go to add a trait switching feature to his tool. ArenaNet clearly wants such a feature in their game, but haven't created one that matches their idea of it yet. Until they get it done, we can use the rudimentary feature of Arcdps (which is all I want). ArenaNet is quite open to third party tools, they even provide an API for anyone to use. The dps meter is just one of those tools, although ArenaNet might not have planned to add one themselves. But maybe, since they are used and tolerated, they will implement an ingame, accurate dps meter. Many people who play MMO games love crunching numbers, and they will do that even if they had to manually transfer them from the UI into an Excel sheet. Tools just make that easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 Yes, let's go back to the glorious years of only allowing a mesmer and 4 warriors on a dungeon run! Or do you mean the equally glorious years of kicking based on AP number? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 > @Abakk.9176 said: > You can cherrypick a single line and harp on it whatever you want. You cannot convince/persuade me that your spyware is the way to go. > > We are all equal, no matter what pixels we wear. > > I've witnessed the very process of destruction i talk about over a period of several years and watched a nice community fall apart into egoistic selfserving toxic mobs, kicking everything and everyone they think stands in their way to personal fame and glory. > > There is no way to justify such a waste and misbehavior. > > The way to prevent it starts, in my opinion, at not allowing 3rd party software to rule a game. The game doesn't need it and the players even less so. Well you claimed that "You create the very players that you try to weed out by the toxic shortcut you use." I gave you the different types of players affected and how there is a positive, and not negative, impact on 3 out of 4 of them. Trolls will be trolls, report and move on, for all the others meter kicks can have a positive effect. You are talking about some other communities that are irrelevant to this one, something that happened in another community is not bound to happen here too. And you are still missing the issue here, it's not always the fault of the one doing the kicking but instead of the one getting kicked. I will tell you a story. Back at release they had magic find as stat on gear. There was an outrage about it, as some players were using gear with magic find stats, a selfish stat that only affects the user, instead of using other stats that help the entire team. Those selfish cowards were hiding using false pings of gear. It took Anet months until they finally removed that trash from the game. They were selfish people who used cheap tricks (chat codes or other gear with similar skin) to find their way inside groups, bypassing the requirements of the group, and in general getting extra rewards for doing less in a group situation. I really wish we had DPS-meters back then, so those guys using the Magic Find gear could be kicked, then put on the ignore list and never seen again. But of course, to you "we are all equal", no matter what pixels we wear, so I guess to you, those using Magic Find gear shouldn't be kicked, it's their precious time after all. Right? Now, in a similar way, players are finding all sorts of tricks with chat codes to enter groups they don't belong to, feeling entitled because "we are all the same." And you somehow justify this rude behavior towards others? You justify players being liars, cheats and a waste of time for the other players? Why do you justify this misbehavior? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coconut.7082 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 > @Feanor.2358 said: > Yes, let's go back to the glorious years of only allowing a mesmer and 4 warriors on a dungeon run! Or do you mean the equally glorious years of kicking based on AP number? Did you mean: no Ranger no Necro? Dungeoneers only? Meta Zerk? Kicks for refusing to exploit Mossman on top of the cabin? Eternal / Slippery Slubling only? Spirit Quest Tonic? 50+ LI? Ping full Gear? 4 Tempests only? Nah, All those didn't exist before DPS meters. What else could be caused by those spiteful tools? Look at Mystic Coin price!! It was below 1g before DPS meters were legal, and where is it now?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 > @maddoctor.2738 said: > Now, in a similar way, players are finding all sorts of tricks with chat codes to enter groups they don't belong to, feeling entitled because "we are all the same." And you somehow justify this rude behavior towards others? You justify players being liars, cheats and a waste of time for the other players? Why do you justify this misbehavior? Well, why not? "We're all equal", remember? Doesn't matter how much effort and time it took you to improve your skills, you're just as good as someone who just levelled to 80 in random greens and yellows and you're obliged to babysit him through all the content at his own convenience. Sounds right to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abakk.9176 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > @Abakk.9176 said: > > You can cherrypick a single line and harp on it whatever you want. You cannot convince/persuade me that your spyware is the way to go. > > > > We are all equal, no matter what pixels we wear. > > > > I've witnessed the very process of destruction i talk about over a period of several years and watched a nice community fall apart into egoistic selfserving toxic mobs, kicking everything and everyone they think stands in their way to personal fame and glory. > > > > There is no way to justify such a waste and misbehavior. > > > > The way to prevent it starts, in my opinion, at not allowing 3rd party software to rule a game. The game doesn't need it and the players even less so. > > Well you claimed that "You create the very players that you try to weed out by the toxic shortcut you use." I gave you the different types of players affected and how there is a positive, and not negative, impact on 3 out of 4 of them. Trolls will be trolls, report and move on, for all the others meter kicks can have a positive effect. > > You are talking about some other communities that are irrelevant to this one, something that happened in another community is not bound to happen here too. > > And you are still missing the issue here, it's not always the fault of the one doing the kicking but instead of the one getting kicked. > I will tell you a story. Back at release they had magic find as stat on gear. There was an outrage about it, as some players were using gear with magic find stats, a selfish stat that only affects the user, instead of using other stats that help the entire team. Those selfish cowards were hiding using false pings of gear. It took Anet months until they finally removed that trash from the game. They were selfish people who used cheap tricks (chat codes or other gear with similar skin) to find their way inside groups, bypassing the requirements of the group, and in general getting extra rewards for doing less in a group situation. I really wish we had DPS-meters back then, so those guys using the Magic Find gear could be kicked, then put on the ignore list and never seen again. But of course, to you "we are all equal", no matter what pixels we wear, so I guess to you, those using Magic Find gear shouldn't be kicked, it's their precious time after all. Right? > > Now, in a similar way, players are finding all sorts of tricks with chat codes to enter groups they don't belong to, feeling entitled because "we are all the same." And you somehow justify this rude behavior towards others? You justify players being liars, cheats and a waste of time for the other players? Why do you justify this misbehavior? You can come up with any story you want twisting everything in your favor however you like. I don't care. I think DPS-meters that spy on others are bad and you think its a gift from heaven.. whatever! Opinions differ so get over it already and keep your fairytales to yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 > @Abakk.9176 said: > Opinions differ so get over it already and keep your fairytales to yourself. DPS meters are bad! DPS meters aren't bad -> arguments supporting it! I don't care about your arguments, dps meters are just bad! Sometimes I surprise myself why I even bothered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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