I hate what DPS meters have done to PVE endgame...

[Syktek.7912]

> @Abakk.9176 said:

> > @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

> > DPS meters when used appropriately give extra flexibility to team choices than you would otherwise see. I was running a t4 daily set with my buddy the other night and we had a base necro (not reaper) join us. We were a bit sceptical, but figured we'd give it a shot regardless. Thanks to the Dps meters we ran we were able to confirm that the necro was performing quite appropriately, so we had no complaints.

> >

> > Without the use of DPS meters though, we may have kicked before starting just to eliminate that liability.

>

> "..eliminate that liability"

>

> *Picks up jaw from the floor...

>

>

 

Again, people don't want to spend an hour on content that takes 10-20 with a good group. We're not required to carry bad players. No amount of fake downvotes will change that or make the truth go away.

[LanfearShadowflame.3189]

"We don't want to carry.... waste time..." blah blah

 

Look, there's a lot of 'balls to the wall, dps is all, if you so much as breathe wrong and screw up the rotation we're going to kick you' type people. They are welcome to play with others like themselves (or just with themselves for all I care); however, they should REALLY very clearly mark that they are such a group. If they don't, they have 0 room to give anyone shit that doesn't meet that desired requirement. On the flip side, people need to read and not join the group if that's not the hard core crap they are in to. We can go back and forth on this argument about who's fault is what and who needs to do what, but it boils down to there's responsibilities that need to be met on both sides of that line.

 

That said, OP, you are more than welcome to play with people like myself anytime you so choose. If things are dying, we're having fun, and you're an enjoyable person to hang out with, you can play naked for all I care. Its not going to get my panties in a bunch if it take 10 minutes longer because we didn't shove something in a corner in the first 10 seconds of the battle (or at all really) or if we didn't skip 'x' mob, or you want to play a freaking pistol pistol thief. It's a game, not a job, and not having absolute maximum dps pumping out your ears 100% of the time is not the end of the world.

 

(And if this post upsets anyone in anyway, you are way _way_ too uptight. Breathe.)

[moonstarmac.4603]

Sadly every game has elitists that think just because they have a huge burst of DPS they are better. However, if they are also the first to drop like a rock in a fight, it could be said they really have no clue how to effectively play their class. High DPS does not make a player better...experience and efficient play style does.

[czerwoni.9563]

exactly, this game should be more like the anime Sword Art Online. theres a nice clip of them working together to defeat the boss. i hate how you have to follow these peoples rules or get kicked like come one people have different styles, yes some things are better than others but i thought this game was where you can play whatever you want as long as you know what you are doing.

[Nubsauce.9821]

In my experiences of mmorpgs, it was the SKILL of the PLAYER that mattered more than the build. Sure, anyone can use the most Meta/OP build for their class, but doesnt mean they will be the best. I've seen players that aren't running meta and still kick the pants off people who are. Why? Because their skill allows them to. People in MMORPGS are too quick to judge a player based on what a website says now a days. For example, in WoW, if you dont "Parse" well on a website that ranks you against others around the world, you dont get into a guild/raid/group. Yet they fail to look at how you actually played the class. They fail to see that you know mechanics, and dont die to stupid. You know how to adapt and keep yourself alive if you need to. All in all, they dont see that you know how to play your class, regardless if your are in meta build or not.

 

Meters, to me, judge your performance. It shows me if you know the fight, know your class. know your rotation, or are even trying. Idk about you, but I'm tired of Carrying people that just want to be lazy and not try. Now, I dont mind helping out players who are just starting or are coming back after a while, etc. Ill gladly help those who actually want to put in effort in learning their class or mechanics of a boss/dungeon. However, I cannot stand carrying people who are literally dead weight. Who come saying they know the fights, etc, but yet perform like they are level 40 geared. Now, before kicking that person, I'll call them out. Ask them why their dps or performance is so low. If they give me a rage answer like "I know my class, you 're the one that has no idea what you're doing!", I'll kick them. Because you cannot help someone who will not help themselves. But if they give me an answer saying like they dont know this boss, or they kinda forgot this dungeon/boss mechanics because they just came back, or even if its their first time doing the content. I will try to help them out the best I can.

 

The Meters dont cause issues. The people looking at them do. Simple as that. People also took advantage of the fact they didnt have meters....they would literally just join groups and do the bare minimum (Carried), because they dont want to try, or just dont care, and no one would have any idea of it. I think majority of the people complaining about meters are those who did this and can no longer coast through content on the backs of others.

 

But like I said: The Meters don't cause the issues, the players looking at them do.

[fluffdragon.1523]

> @Syktek.7912 said:

> Great way to fix this problem: Get a clique and play with them on a regular basis. Occasionally you'll need to pickup a pug (not everyone can make it every time) which you can simply kick them if they go ape. There's no excuse not to do this as you have five guild slots and one should be dedicated to a mass pve guild.

 

Unfortunately, this would be a **lot** easier to manage if I had more friends who played regularly, a guild that didn't schism months ago and essentially go dark, or any desire to join another guild.

 

I hate to say it, but comments like these don't actually contribute to the discussion, they just brush it off as though it's the fault of the player.

[Pyroatheist.9031]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > @Shirlias.8104 said:

> > To me is fine, but only if they put that into party descritption "fast run. no noobs. dpsm." etc...

>

> Lol says it all really about that type of thinking, and agree if advertised then that's fair enough.> @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

> > DPS meters when used appropriately give extra flexibility to team choices than you would otherwise see. I was running a t4 daily set with my buddy the other night and we had a base necro (not reaper) join us. We were a bit sceptical, but figured we'd give it a shot regardless. Thanks to the Dps meters we ran we were able to confirm that the necro was performing quite appropriately, so we had no complaints.

> >

> > Without the use of DPS meters though, we may have kicked before starting just to eliminate that liability.

>

> Eliminate that liability eh, thats the telling comment right there. Tell me what would you do with a player that is perfectly viable but not optimal and does not want to play glass cannon ?

 

It's exactly as I said. The necro in my post wasn't doing meta-benchmark dps, but they were doing reasonable dps for completing the fractal. As such, we had no problem with them. Dps meters let you distinguish between the players that are "perfectly viable but not optimal" and the ones that are actually bad. It removes the guesswork from that judgement call.

[Spurnshadow.3678]

It's the meters. Why? Because GW2 is not a metered game. Period.

 

I've played other MMOs and they are based on the trinity system. As such, they are capable of designing their PVE content in a much more precise way. This is also due to their classes are also much more precisely balanced and limited in builds to put out x amount of dps if the proper rotations are followed. This is something that GW2 doesn't have as there are a near infinite amount of builds. Every raid boss has enrage timers or other mechanics that wipe if things aren't killed in a very specific time based on their knowledge of 2 dps, 1 healer, 1 tank, or whatever their party set up is.

GW2 is not like that at all. There are very few bosses that have an enrage timer. GW2 is designed almost entirely on mechanics and managing chaos.

 

The pve community has become very elitest since these dps meters came out for no good reason. The goals that they want people to reach are completely arbitrary and are solely based on maximum dps for your class/build. If you can't reach that max dps, then you're not allowed to play. But the game doesn't care about that. Only the people do. What difference does it make if you kill a boss in 7 minutes or 8 minutes? None. Not only that, one doesn't need a dps meter to tell who is not doing good dps. One can tell just by watching them, or, as other's have stated, if they are constatnly going down or dead.

 

The other problems about the dps meters that do exist in this game is that they are able to see other peoples dps. This lack of consent is the worst part. DPS meters in other games requires everyone to sign up for that meter. It's just wrong to not have that permission system. What makes this even worse, (unless something has changed recently) the current dps meters are estimations on other peoples dps and don't factor in certain types of damage. There are also massive security concerns according to a few IT friends of mine. I just can't believe that Anet has allowed this stuff to proliferate in their game. The best thing they could do is what other games do. Have the game generate an accurate, simple text log, stored anywhere on your computer, that a meter has access to and be sent to external proxy so friends can have access to it without the janky stuff the current dps meters do.

 

I have no issues with dps meters for personal use, or if a guild or group gives **consent** to work on their collective dps, but the current system, lack of security, lack of consent, and just unnecessary as GW2 design doesn't care about max dps in it's game design, and how it hurts groups due to the arising elitism and poor gameplay based on max dps, this MUST go.

[Pyroatheist.9031]

> @Spurnshadow.3678 said:

> What difference does it make if you kill a boss in 7 minutes or 8 minutes?

 

The game might not care if I finish fractal dailies in 20 minutes or 2 hours, but I sure do.

[Spurnshadow.3678]

It really amazes me how some folks don't understand that DPS stands for Damage Per Second or damage over time. Lets say you start a boss at 1:00 and kill it in 5 minutes, ending at 1:05. Great. That was fast. Good for you. But, if you wipe, time still ticks on. So you have to get regrouped, get back to the boss, and start again. Lets say you kill the boss on your second try and you killed it at 1:12. Your dps has been cut by 60%. Yes, the per encounter dps is still high, but it took you over twice as long to complete the content, wasting everyone's time. That's the point people are trying to make.

 

I've been in fractal groups, particularly Subject 6, where they fail over and over trying to kill it fast. After about 15 minutes, the group fell apart with lots of people yelling at eachother. Now, everyone has to spend even more time trying to get another group and re-do the content before subject 6 again. So, a boss that should take maybe 5 minutes turned into a 45 minute ordeal. In the end, it would have been much faster to do it without trying to game the mechanics

[Pyroatheist.9031]

> @Spurnshadow.3678 said:

> It really amazes me how some folks don't understand that DPS stands for Damage Per Second or damage over time. Lets say you start a boss at 1:00 and kill it in 5 minutes, ending at 1:05. Great. That was fast. Good for you. But, if you wipe, time still ticks on. So you have to get regrouped, get back to the boss, and start again. Lets say you kill the boss on your second try and you killed it at 1:12. Your dps has been cut by 60%. Yes, the per encounter dps is still high, but it took you over twice as long to complete the content, wasting everyone's time. That's the point people are trying to make.

>

> I've been in fractal groups, particularly Subject 6, where they fail over and over trying to kill it fast. After about 15 minutes, the group fell apart with lots of people yelling at eachother. Now, everyone has to spend even more time trying to get another group and re-do the content before subject 6 again. So, a boss that should take maybe 5 minutes turned into a 45 minute ordeal. In the end, it would have been much faster to do it without trying to game the mechanics

 

The lower the dps of the group, the longer you have to sustain through the variety of mechanics in a fight. The more attacks to be dodged, the more smashes to be healed, you get the picture. Finishing a fight quickly generally makes it much easier to succeed. Additionally, fights with adds are made much easier when the group's dps is able to mop them up rapidly before problems occur.

 

In some very specific instances, such as subject 6, the dps check for a fast and smooth kill is out of reach of all but the very best comps. This makes pushing that strat unwise unless you really have confidence in your group. However, there are very few encounters that have such a hard fail/pass dps check. Pretty much everything else is categorically easier as DPS increases without actually requiring different strategies.

[Spurnshadow.3678]

> @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

> > @Spurnshadow.3678 said:

> > It really amazes me how some folks don't understand that DPS stands for Damage Per Second or damage over time. Lets say you start a boss at 1:00 and kill it in 5 minutes, ending at 1:05. Great. That was fast. Good for you. But, if you wipe, time still ticks on. So you have to get regrouped, get back to the boss, and start again. Lets say you kill the boss on your second try and you killed it at 1:12. Your dps has been cut by 60%. Yes, the per encounter dps is still high, but it took you over twice as long to complete the content, wasting everyone's time. That's the point people are trying to make.

> >

> > I've been in fractal groups, particularly Subject 6, where they fail over and over trying to kill it fast. After about 15 minutes, the group fell apart with lots of people yelling at eachother. Now, everyone has to spend even more time trying to get another group and re-do the content before subject 6 again. So, a boss that should take maybe 5 minutes turned into a 45 minute ordeal. In the end, it would have been much faster to do it without trying to game the mechanics

>

> The lower the dps of the group, the longer you have to sustain through the variety of mechanics in a fight. The more attacks to be dodged, the more smashes to be healed, you get the picture. Finishing a fight quickly generally makes it much easier to succeed. Additionally, fights with adds are made much easier when the group's dps is able to mop them up rapidly before problems occur.

>

> In some very specific instances, such as subject 6, the dps check for a fast and smooth kill is out of reach of all but the very best comps. This makes pushing that strat unwise unless you really have confidence in your group. However, there are very few encounters that have such a hard fail/pass dps check. Pretty much everything else is categorically easier as DPS increases without actually requiring different strategies.

 

Sigh. No shit. I have never stated that people shouldn't have good dps. I understand the value of good dps. Sigh

[Spurnshadow.3678]

> @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

> > @Spurnshadow.3678 said:

> > What difference does it make if you kill a boss in 7 minutes or 8 minutes?

>

> The game might not care if I finish fractal dailies in 20 minutes or 2 hours, but I sure do.

 

So do I. That's my point as well as the point of many others. Congrats on going to a hyperbolic extreme there, too. Cause taking an extra 1 minute per boss because one person isn't doing 30K dps in fractals is exactly the same as wiping over and over again. Exaclty the same. That's sarcasm if you can't tell.

[Spurnshadow.3678]

I swear, reading is so hard for some folks.

 

Can I not delete my own posts?

[Pyroatheist.9031]

> @Spurnshadow.3678 said:

> > @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

> > > @Spurnshadow.3678 said:

> > > What difference does it make if you kill a boss in 7 minutes or 8 minutes?

> >

> > The game might not care if I finish fractal dailies in 20 minutes or 2 hours, but I sure do.

>

> So do I. That's my point as well as the point of many others.

 

Your point was that somehow DPS meters make this worse. You are categorically wrong, hence why I responded to you.

[Spurnshadow.3678]

> @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

> > @Spurnshadow.3678 said:

> > > @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

> > > > @Spurnshadow.3678 said:

> > > > What difference does it make if you kill a boss in 7 minutes or 8 minutes?

> > >

> > > The game might not care if I finish fractal dailies in 20 minutes or 2 hours, but I sure do.

> >

> > So do I. That's my point as well as the point of many others.

>

> Your point was that somehow DPS meters make this worse. You are categorically wrong, hence why I responded to you.

 

Again, if you actually read my posts, you would see that I'm against the CURRENT dps meter system. Here's a quote from my post just above.

 

"I have no issues with dps meters for personal use, or if a guild or group gives consent to work on their collective dps, but the current system, lack of security, lack of consent, and just unnecessary as GW2 design doesn't care about max dps in it's game design, and how it hurts groups due to the arising elitism and poor gameplay based on max dps, this MUST go."

[Nubsauce.9821]

> @Spurnshadow.3678 said:

> It's the meters. Why? Because GW2 is not a metered game. Period.

>

> I've played other MMOs and they are based on the trinity system. As such, they are capable of designing their PVE content in a much more precise way. This is also due to their classes are also much more precisely balanced and limited in builds to put out x amount of dps if the proper rotations are followed. This is something that GW2 doesn't have as there are a near infinite amount of builds. Every raid boss has enrage timers or other mechanics that wipe if things aren't killed in a very specific time based on their knowledge of 2 dps, 1 healer, 1 tank, or whatever their party set up is.

> GW2 is not like that at all. There are very few bosses that have an enrage timer. GW2 is designed almost entirely on mechanics and managing chaos.

>

> The pve community has become very elitest since these dps meters came out for no good reason. The goals that they want people to reach are completely arbitrary and are solely based on maximum dps for your class/build. If you can't reach that max dps, then you're not allowed to play. But the game doesn't care about that. Only the people do. What difference does it make if you kill a boss in 7 minutes or 8 minutes? None. Not only that, one doesn't need a dps meter to tell who is not doing good dps. One can tell just by watching them, or, as other's have stated, if they are constatnly going down or dead.

>

> The other problems about the dps meters that do exist in this game is that they are able to see other peoples dps. This lack of consent is the worst part. DPS meters in other games requires everyone to sign up for that meter. It's just wrong to not have that permission system. What makes this even worse, (unless something has changed recently) the current dps meters are estimations on other peoples dps and don't factor in certain types of damage. There are also massive security concerns according to a few IT friends of mine. I just can't believe that Anet has allowed this stuff to proliferate in their game. The best thing they could do is what other games do. Have the game generate an accurate, simple text log, stored anywhere on your computer, that a meter has access to and be sent to external proxy so friends can have access to it without the janky stuff the current dps meters do.

>

> I have no issues with dps meters for personal use, or if a guild or group gives **consent** to work on their collective dps, but the current system, lack of security, lack of consent, and just unnecessary as GW2 design doesn't care about max dps in it's game design, and how it hurts groups due to the arising elitism and poor gameplay based on max dps, this MUST go.

 

Let's address this yes?

 

Sure, GW2 isn't like other MMORPGS, which is why it still can have that flare about it. Yes, it doesnt have the whole Trinity of classes, but it has 5 dps classes instead. If 1 of those isnt doing anything but just white hitting with the occasional ability, they are looking to get carried. Prior to meters, you would have no idea of this. Now with meters you can.

 

Imo, those guys are a little extreme....this game doesnt have a site like WoW does to where they can actually pit you against everyone playing your class in the world and show your score against them. People in WoW dont even judge a player off of skill anymore, but on another websites data (Which could be wrong), and make a decision based upon it. Here, you can still give the player a chance to show they know what they are doing. You STILL have to physically group with them several times to see how they perform. Meters can also be used to see how YOU are performing and allow you to see what things do more damage where and this can help you optimize your class. However, you sound like you know what your are doing and the meters should have no effect on you....but yet you say this? So, what have the Meters personally done to you?

 

Lack of consent? So what, you gave your consent when you hit "I Agree" on the ToS...and no...dps meters dont require people to sign up to use them...idk what games you're playing, but the largest of them dont require a membership...

 

And yes, it does not factor in some damage such as random hits from mobs that crit for stupid amounts of dmg or mobs that take more dmg because of their non-elite status, that also exists in other meters in other games.

 

A few Security concerns? Not even, this takes publicly accessible data from the game and puts it into a visual chart. This doesnt go after your account info....and btw. GW2 has some of the most intense security measures I have seen for a game yet....so no...I highly doubt there is a security issue with this.

 

As I stated previously: The Meters dont cause issues, the players looking at them do. This would also apply even if there were no Meters. You mess up once, and people would flip out on you, and most likely kick you from the group. Those people are what you call Cancer or Toxicity in a Video Game...You have to learn to avoid them or ignore them. They exist everywhere. Also, there is nothing wrong with Elitism, however, there is something wrong with False Elitism. Meaning the person acts like an Elitist, but yet is no where near one in skill or ability. Those are the ones who blame others for failures and kick people constantly for being slightly low on dps. I dont kick people who try, I kick people who are lazy and are trying to get carried.

 

Imo, this isnt hurting the game, it's just give players a tool to help optimize their abilities and class for those Perfectionists out there. Yeah, some players may cause issued with it, but in the end, it's not against the ToS. I mean, to some, this game feels like Carebear Wars 2 rather than a game that stemmed from a somewhat competitive game, if I recall correctly. But hey, that's just my opinion.

 

 

[Pyroatheist.9031]

> @Spurnshadow.3678 said:

> > @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

> > > @Spurnshadow.3678 said:

> > > > @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

> > > > > @Spurnshadow.3678 said:

> > > > > What difference does it make if you kill a boss in 7 minutes or 8 minutes?

> > > >

> > > > The game might not care if I finish fractal dailies in 20 minutes or 2 hours, but I sure do.

> > >

> > > So do I. That's my point as well as the point of many others.

> >

> > Your point was that somehow DPS meters make this worse. You are categorically wrong, hence why I responded to you.

>

> Again, if you actually read my posts, you would see that I'm against the CURRENT dps meter system. Here's a quote from my post just above.

>

> "I have no issues with dps meters for personal use, or if a guild or group gives consent to work on their collective dps, but the current system, lack of security, lack of consent, and just unnecessary as GW2 design doesn't care about max dps in it's game design, and how it hurts groups due to the arising elitism and poor gameplay based on max dps, this MUST go."

 

Right, but this isn't really sensible.

 

Firstly security isn't an issue. Just because some random people that say they're "IT" claim that it's a vulnerability doesn't mean that it's the truth. Chris Cleary checks off on them, and that's good enough for me. There's no love lost between me and the gw2 dev team, but security has always been something that they perform exceptionally with.

 

As for the lack of consent, this would change nothing. Let's assume that the meters are implemented strictly as an opt-in system. Currently you use the meters and see how people are performing, end of story. In an opt-in system, you'd see some people hiding their performance. The universal response to this would be instantly kicking people that aren't willing to opt-in. The logic here is that if you're not willing to show your DPS, you're probably hiding poor performance. This would introduce a whole new wave of complaints and toxicity and we'd be no better off than before.

 

Insofar as necessity with GW2 game design...that's purely your unsubstantiated opinion. I've already discussed why dps has a relationship with completing encounters easily. Since you've agreed with that relationship, dps obviously matters. A meter to measure that dps is a logical step to try and monitor how effective group performance is.

 

There's nothing wrong with dps meter security. An opt-in system would produce even more toxicity. Dps matters in gw2 and therefore DPS meters make sense to implement.

[Feanor.2358]

> @Spurnshadow.3678 said:

> > @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

> > > @Spurnshadow.3678 said:

> > > What difference does it make if you kill a boss in 7 minutes or 8 minutes?

> >

> > The game might not care if I finish fractal dailies in 20 minutes or 2 hours, but I sure do.

>

> So do I. That's my point as well as the point of many others. Congrats on going to a hyperbolic extreme there, too. Cause taking an extra 1 minute per boss because one person isn't doing 30K dps in fractals is exactly the same as wiping over and over again. Exaclty the same. That's sarcasm if you can't tell.

 

Except not really. The lower the dps, the longer the fight, the more mechanics you need to manage and the greater the chance somebody makes a mistake. Which lowers your damage output even further and can often wipe your group. It's not just faster with a good group, it's also much safer and smoother.

[Pink Porcupine.5461]

I wonder what would happen if we made random teams of pro-meter and anti-meter people in this thread.

[Geiir.7603]

The second someone tell me how to play my spec, complain about dps or tell me that I'm using a "wrong" build I'm going to either go AFK, leave the group or just die.

 

Elitists should say that they require meta builds and top notch dps. If you're not saying this in the group finder, then I'm going to assume that I can enter with my exotic geared condition thief.

 

Elitism are just making the toxic players even worse and the self entitled "pros" even worse to be in a group with. DPS meters are nothing but toxic for the game. The only players who should ever need one are guild groups who are aiming to min/max everything.

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Pink Porcupine.5461" said:

> I wonder what would happen if we made random teams of pro-meter and anti-meter people in this thread.

 

What you'd likely see is the typical "all welcome" raiding experience. You'd likely get just far enough before one or the other lost their senses are left.

[Abakk.9176]

> @"Pink Porcupine.5461" said:

> I wonder what would happen if we made random teams of pro-meter and anti-meter people in this thread.

 

The anti-meter people will come out either winning or losing from the computer and only care for the fun they had together.

 

The pro-meter players will either come out cursing eachother (as they always do) because due to player error a full second was wasted and lost to eternity OR they are still at the entrance kicking everybody after scanning for optimal build or profession.

 

 

[Blockhead Magee.3092]

I normally don't sit on the fence (its pointy and it hurts) but I what I am seeing are the people who used DPS meters demanding how other should play and I'm seeing those who hate DPS meters telling those folks they shouldn't be allowed to play with them. Essentially, both groups are telling the other what they should or shouldn't do.

 

Others have said the same thing, but the real solution is to be specific when using LFG for what you want. Find folks who like to play the way you do. Read the LFG so you can tell what you're getting into. Lastly, use the block feature when you find someone from the other side of the spectrum you can abide.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @Feanor.2358 said:

> > @Spurnshadow.3678 said:

> > > @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

> > > > @Spurnshadow.3678 said:

> > > > What difference does it make if you kill a boss in 7 minutes or 8 minutes?

> > >

> > > The game might not care if I finish fractal dailies in 20 minutes or 2 hours, but I sure do.

> >

> > So do I. That's my point as well as the point of many others. Congrats on going to a hyperbolic extreme there, too. Cause taking an extra 1 minute per boss because one person isn't doing 30K dps in fractals is exactly the same as wiping over and over again. Exaclty the same. That's sarcasm if you can't tell.

>

> Except not really. The lower the dps, the longer the fight, the more mechanics you need to manage and the greater the chance somebody makes a mistake. Which lowers your damage output even further and can often wipe your group. It's not just faster with a good group, it's also much safer and smoother.

 

So what happens if someone does not want to play glass cannon? Because that's what meta is, glass cannon or go home. you see for you its all about the number/efficiency/meter wars, but in in the spirit of Guild wars many people want to enjoy playing the class the way they want it and if its viable then the rest is noise (unless ofc the group advertising specifically for speed runners etc). The fast is efficient is only relevant to those that want speed, and wearing glass cannon is patently unsafe unless you buy into the ball up on the boss and roll your face over the keyboard/spell rota, which is about as fun for some as it sounds - especially for new players who want to experience their class.