I hate what DPS meters have done to PVE endgame...

[Shoyoko.7309]

I don't think we should blame meter, if we are talking about the DPS meter in special forces training area, it is really helpful for build development- seeing actual DPS numbers really helps to understand how much damage you do especially for condition damage builds. It also highlighted and cleared misunderstanding across all professions - I remember there would be debates about which classes were better pre dps meter, people always thought it was warrior, ele, thief and guardian then disregard all others as obsolete.

 

But! I do blame the people who use it as an indicator for "good and the only viable builds = good players", just because your DPS is high doesn't mean your build is optimal for all situations anyway and just because you play full power or condi build doesn't mean you a good player. A good player knows their strength and weakness and tailors their build to allow them to play confidently. I rather have someone who knows how to survive than someone and can adapt quickly than someone who is full dps but dies in 20 seconds.

 

And please...you definitely don't need meta builds or arcdps for fractals T4, whilst it is challenging, the way I see fractals, it is a test of your survivability in a team and **on your own**. There is no timer so there is no priority for DPS. I remember a necro was kicked out of a group I was in by all the other members except me, they didn't give him a chance cos "necro wasn't considered a class anymore", just instant kick, that is so dumb- for all we know, he probably was an expert at fractals. I remember when fractal was a new thing, engineers like me were kicked out for no reason cos they all assumed that we were weak and tbh didn't know about engineers at all. This is the same thing.

 

And raids......raids only just revealed to us that there is an imbalance in professions and specific types of builds were needed to succeed in raids.

My suggestions to this is for anet needs to learn from raids on how to improve the professions, diversify the builds so there are more alternatives, why should druid be the only meta healer for raid and possibly future challenging end game content? Is there another class that can possibly provide an alternative to chrono's alacrity? And then make many self-measured meters like the ones in training area for healing, utilities, support, everything; let's highlight the other qualities of our builds than just DPS.

 

One thing I loved about guild wars 2 is the unique **flexible** MMO playstyle and I really don't want to see that lost in translation.

 

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

> > @Dante.1763 said:

> > > @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

> > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > > The vast majority of GW2 players dont raid

> > > > the vast majority of GW2 players don't use damage meters

> > > > The vast majority of players don't use meta builds

> > > >

> > > > The vast majority of players happily farm fractals every day,

> > > >

> > > > The need for Meta by raiders outwith raids has nothing to do with viability and everything to do with their mindset.

> > >

> > > I think you may have missed what the point of this thread was. It's not titled "DPS meters are toxic for open world events". It's explicitly about PvE endgame, the exact place where DPS meters are appropriate. Nobody is saying that people should be persnickety in t2 fractals or in your daily arah run. We're talking about t4 fractals and raids. That's it.

> > >

> > or maybe im just....doing more damage than i think i am and thus havent been bothered by them.

>

> This is likely the case. The anti-dps meter crowd makes it seem like people will have a hairy conniption if you're 5% under qt benchmarks. In reality, people are only gonna flip at you if you're dealing less damage than the chrono. As long as you're producing any reasonable dps, nobody is going to raise a fuss.

 

Thats' the thing though isn't it, reasonable dps is perfectly fine and everyone happily clears the instances without being optimal but people do make a fuss, so why are they making a fuss, why the drama, why the calling out of peopl;e because they are using skill X instead of Y when actually as long as your resoable/viable all should be well. This is the heart of the issue.> @Syktek.7912 said:

> > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > Strawman argument. I was talking about PVE instanced end game, dungeons, boss fights, fractals - eveything appart from raids in fact. The vast majority of players happily farm fractals including T4 and have been doing so for many years quite happily. As i said the need for Meta by raiders outwith raids has nothing to do with viability and everything to do with their mindset, because the fact is the vast majority prove otherwise.

>

> And let them. No one is telling them not to play together. They're simply not going to get into certainly groups with certain people who wish to play efficiently with other efficient players. And sure, you try running Matt, Deimos, Sab without a chrono, heather and with mediocre players. Have fun, lol.

 

'them' is the majority of the player base, and absolutely players should play with like minded people if they cant handle otherwise, especially those that look down their elitist nostrils on 'mediocre' people lol. Win win.

[Dante.1763]

> @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

> > @Dante.1763 said:

> > > @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

> > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > > The vast majority of GW2 players dont raid

> > > > the vast majority of GW2 players don't use damage meters

> > > > The vast majority of players don't use meta builds

> > > >

> > > > The vast majority of players happily farm fractals every day,

> > > >

> > > > The need for Meta by raiders outwith raids has nothing to do with viability and everything to do with their mindset.

> > >

> > > I think you may have missed what the point of this thread was. It's not titled "DPS meters are toxic for open world events". It's explicitly about PvE endgame, the exact place where DPS meters are appropriate. Nobody is saying that people should be persnickety in t2 fractals or in your daily arah run. We're talking about t4 fractals and raids. That's it.

> > >

> > or maybe im just....doing more damage than i think i am and thus havent been bothered by them.

>

> This is likely the case. The anti-dps meter crowd makes it seem like people will have a hairy conniption if you're 5% under qt benchmarks. In reality, people are only gonna flip at you if you're dealing less damage than the chrono. As long as you're producing any reasonable dps, nobody is going to raise a fuss.

 

Oh, i know they wont flip out if you are not to far below. As i said earlier in the thread, im glad i dont kicked anymore for simply playing a ranger which i used to *often* DPS meters have opened that door(now if we could get our class fixed wed be awesome) And im hoping that theres never a reason to close that door again. Though i think the Anti-Dps meter crowd would rather have that, than have the DPS meters in game, at least thats what im seeing. they would rather be kicked for not having enough AP, playing Ranger/Necro/Engi because those got kicked for daring to try instanced content or any of the other reasons people used to kick for.

[Syktek.7912]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

> > > @Dante.1763 said:

> > > > @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

> > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > > > The vast majority of GW2 players dont raid

> > > > > the vast majority of GW2 players don't use damage meters

> > > > > The vast majority of players don't use meta builds

> > > > >

> > > > > The vast majority of players happily farm fractals every day,

> > > > >

> > > > > The need for Meta by raiders outwith raids has nothing to do with viability and everything to do with their mindset.

> > > >

> > > > I think you may have missed what the point of this thread was. It's not titled "DPS meters are toxic for open world events". It's explicitly about PvE endgame, the exact place where DPS meters are appropriate. Nobody is saying that people should be persnickety in t2 fractals or in your daily arah run. We're talking about t4 fractals and raids. That's it.

> > > >

> > > or maybe im just....doing more damage than i think i am and thus havent been bothered by them.

> >

> > This is likely the case. The anti-dps meter crowd makes it seem like people will have a hairy conniption if you're 5% under qt benchmarks. In reality, people are only gonna flip at you if you're dealing less damage than the chrono. As long as you're producing any reasonable dps, nobody is going to raise a fuss.

>

> Thats' the thing though isn't it, reasonable dps is perfectly fine and everyone happily clears the instances without being optimal but people do make a fuss, so why are they making a fuss, why the drama, why the calling out of peopl;e because they are using skill X instead of Y when actually as long as your resoable/viable all should be well. This is the heart of the issue.> @Syktek.7912 said:

> > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > Strawman argument. I was talking about PVE instanced end game, dungeons, boss fights, fractals - eveything appart from raids in fact. The vast majority of players happily farm fractals including T4 and have been doing so for many years quite happily. As i said the need for Meta by raiders outwith raids has nothing to do with viability and everything to do with their mindset, because the fact is the vast majority prove otherwise.

> >

> > And let them. No one is telling them not to play together. They're simply not going to get into certainly groups with certain people who wish to play efficiently with other efficient players. And sure, you try running Matt, Deimos, Sab without a chrono, heather and with mediocre players. Have fun, lol.

>

> 'them' is the majority of the player base, and absolutely players should play with like minded people if they cant handle otherwise, especially those that look down their elitist nostrils on 'mediocre' people lol. Win win.

 

Funny, most people I'm exposed to and play with, even at random, have absolutely no issue with the meta and even try to abide by it.

 

And there it is again "You're an elitist". No bro, an elitist is someone who demands content be harder because it's easy for them and therefor easy for everyone. Content is trivial for me so why can't you do it? Etc. That's elitism. What we're seeing in this thread is players who realized playing efficiently is overall a better experience, gets things done quicker and allows time for other things. DPS Meters help with that whether you like it or not and they're not going to disappear.

[Fermi.2409]

> @Dante.1763 said:

> Maybe ive gotten lucky, but i have yet to run into somebody being an kitten about DPS in T4 fractals, or maybe im just....doing more damage than i think i am and thus havent been bothered by them. I have yet to try level 100 CM, but i also dont think im ready for that either.

 

Even doing pretty shitter DPS levels I've never had any issues. This forum grossly overstates the issue.

 

At the same time, I don't think I've ever pinged LI for raids or anything like that. Generally I feel like "problems" get hugely blown out of proportion on this forum

[Dante.1763]

> @Fermi.2409 said:

> > @Dante.1763 said:

> > Maybe ive gotten lucky, but i have yet to run into somebody being an kitten about DPS in T4 fractals, or maybe im just....doing more damage than i think i am and thus havent been bothered by them. I have yet to try level 100 CM, but i also dont think im ready for that either.

>

> Even doing pretty kitten DPS levels I've never had any issues. This forum grossly overstates the issue.

>

> At the same time, I don't think I've ever pinged LI for raids or anything like that. Generally I feel like "problems" get hugely blown out of proportion on this forum

 

When it comes to raids, i still feel like they are pretty inaccessible. I asked for help on the forums and nobody showed up. Spending 3 hours having a LFG message up sucked hard too. I can see why people have issues with being locked out of raids, very few people are willing to take someone new into them, and i really do have to agree that it shouldnt be that way in this game.

[Spurnshadow.3678]

Raids are the worst of this. Here's a story. I joined a VG group. Was clearing the pre fight guardians on the first boss. I got kicked before even finishing. Why? My dps was too low according to the commander. Dude. I'm not trying that hard, don't have food or utility. Who gives a crap about maximum dps on these guys. Nope don't care. See ya.

 

Encounters like that are not uncommon in raids.

[Rennie.6750]

> @Helbjorne.9368 said:

> Donkeys will be donkeys regardless of whether or not there's a DPS meter, but I can definitely see both sides of the argument. Personally I think it allows us to hold other people accountable if they're just looking to get carried in PUGs, but there's a good and a bad way to address that.

 

DPS meters also promote selfish and greedy behaviour in runs. People are so obsessed about their numbers that they completely forgo any kind of support and will instead slot the last bit of dps they can when they could run some utilities that would make the run a bit longer but much easier and safer. In the same vein, if some dude provides party buffs or manages aggro properly and does some good CC I don't see why he should be kicked, yet, with the damage meter mentality, he will.

 

The problem with dps meters is that it's a tool you should use to evaluate your own performance in a given situation, but you rarely have all the information at hand to evaluate others. You don't know what quality of gear they're running, you don't know which aspect of gameplay they prioritize, and it certainly doesn't take into account how well they're dealing with mechanics. In any other game I've played people either straight out ignored the built-in damage board because roles were so diverse it was irrelevant or were only interested in self-improvement, I'm really surprised that here it's used to play the blame game and complain about others.

[Syktek.7912]

> @Rennie.6750 said:

> > @Helbjorne.9368 said:

> > Donkeys will be donkeys regardless of whether or not there's a DPS meter, but I can definitely see both sides of the argument. Personally I think it allows us to hold other people accountable if they're just looking to get carried in PUGs, but there's a good and a bad way to address that.

>

> DPS meters also promote selfish and greedy behaviour in runs. People are so obsessed about their numbers that they completely forgo any kind of support and will instead slot the last bit of dps-

 

Stopped reading right there. DPS aren't required to slot support nor will they ever be. In fact, no one is required to slot support past your healers. They're there for a reason. Most builds bring ample CC that are built into them. I didn't slot extra 'support' before DPS meters were allowed and I don't now. No successful raid guild does it, none of the pugs I joined did it. Quit making crap up.

 

[Pyroatheist.9031]

> @Dante.1763 said:

> > @Fermi.2409 said:

> > > @Dante.1763 said:

> > > Maybe ive gotten lucky, but i have yet to run into somebody being an kitten about DPS in T4 fractals, or maybe im just....doing more damage than i think i am and thus havent been bothered by them. I have yet to try level 100 CM, but i also dont think im ready for that either.

> >

> > Even doing pretty kitten DPS levels I've never had any issues. This forum grossly overstates the issue.

> >

> > At the same time, I don't think I've ever pinged LI for raids or anything like that. Generally I feel like "problems" get hugely blown out of proportion on this forum

>

> When it comes to raids, i still feel like they are pretty inaccessible. I asked for help on the forums and nobody showed up. Spending 3 hours having a LFG message up sucked hard too. I can see why people have issues with being locked out of raids, very few people are willing to take someone new into them, and i really do have to agree that it shouldnt be that way in this game.

 

Well, I can shed some light on that to an extent, and it has nothing to do with not being willing to teach new players exactly.

 

I lead a PvE raid group and we use subs quite regularly. On a not infrequent basis, these subs are completely new and need to be taught the raids.

 

But.

 

We never get pugs from lfg. We used to, but eventually it became clear that finding a pleasant and even remotely able pug capable of communication, listening, and learning was an incredibly rare phenomenon. We would rather 9man raids than get a pug from lfg.

 

Instead, we get subs through word of mouth. Friends, friends of friends, guildmates that we snatch from otherwise non-pve guilds, that sort of thing. This way we know that the people we get are friendly, can communicate, and are willing to learn and try their best. I enjoy teaching new people the raids, especially when I'm corrupting career WvWers, and it generally works out very well.

 

Ultimately this really blows for new players trying to find a group to learn and practice with from the lfg, but it's the unfortunate reality of the situation. Lfg pugs are so reliably unpleasant and awful that it drives good groups away from the lfg, to the detriment of the few people that aren't awful with the rest.

 

My recommendation for you is to ask around and see if anyone you know does the raids. Groups always need subs, so learn the raids as best you can from videos and ask if they're willing to bring you along and teach the fights. There's a good chance they'll say yes.

[Syktek.7912]

> @Spurnshadow.3678 said:

> Raids are the worst of this. Here's a story. I joined a VG group. Was clearing the pre fight guardians on the first boss. I got kicked before even finishing. Why? My dps was too low according to the commander. Dude. I'm not trying that hard, don't have food or utility. Who gives a crap about maximum dps on these guys. Nope don't care. See ya.

>

> Encounters like that are not uncommon in raids.

 

Oh no, you had one bad experience and we're all supposed to take your word for it. Better delete raids and DPS meters since they breed elitism. Your one bad experience and you expressing it is completely outnumbered by those who had no problems and ran without issue guaranteed. This is something I don't understand how people don't understand: Just because you had a bad experience doesn't automatically mean everyone else is fairing poorly and having their fun ruined by evil commanders spying on you with blasphemous DPS meters. It's a bad argument and statistics do not favor you.

 

I know this because of the amount of raid groups I've been with. The amount of new people and inexperienced people we ran through every raid wing. The amount of those people we did not kick (most of them, 90% of them, got to stay. The ones who got kicked were the ones who simply couldn't function or lied to use; liars got blacklisted). Out of all of those I only met one person genuinely upset, but they weren't removed for their DPS, they were removed because they were wasting our time with "Oh I'm setting up my build" /thirty minutes later. Only one person was ever kicked out of spite and that's because they were actively malicious towards several members. And this was across multiple guilds, not just one. I've been in several raid guilds.

 

My first raid guild picked me up out of the blue and taught me the ropes. While with my first raid group I was picked up by speed running guilds a few times and shown, by the best, how things are done. Free of charge. No mention of my DPS. No elitism. Genuinely fun people who were good at the game, using DPS meters and calling eachother out jokingly, didn't even mention my DPS (and it was terrible at the time as I was still learning).

 

But this isn't just me. I have 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 extra people I could encourage to come here and prove my point. The only people I can find that are mad about it are the a n g e r y people here on the forum (the whiny minority), the lady who was mad because she got kicked for wasting our time and that one piss baby who cussed us out till we kicked him. Meanwhile you're going to have to go search for people or rely on the whiny minority.

[Rayti.6531]

That's all nice and well for raids, instanced content, speed runs, CM etc. In these types of content, a DPS meter certainly has its place, helps people check their own performance and maybe get better in the process. DPS meters and meta builds in the hands of good players/players who know what they are doing aren't exactly the problem (at least not to me).

 

The problem I often encounter, especially when I pug, are wannabe pros who mindlessly copy paste a meta build from qtfy without even knowing why this build is meta, how it's supposed to be used, etc. and think using that build (and dying after a short dmg spike while doing so, because, what is a dodge?) makes them good players/better players than others. As soon as they find themselves in a group comp or type of content where some flexibility is necessary (like e.g. exchanging one skill/trait or two depending on encounter), they are entirely lost and start raging once things don't go their way.

 

One of my best encounters just recently was a Tangled Depths meta, where someone was calling out people for their "sub par DPS" in an OPEN WORLD PVE event (because clearly, that's the type of content where everyone has to run meta builds and you need to use arcdps... right?).

 

Long story short: the event failed due to Nohoch lane not finishing the 2nd nodule event in time. The Nuhoch squad commander thought they had to DPS the boss down in the first dmg phase and did not move on to the nodule event when things got close. They stayed at the boss, the timer hit zero and the boss was at 2% HP... So basically, that squad wasted the time of all players on the map just because they wanted to do a DPS check on an open world boss. As if that wasn't enough, this one player (I think it was even the commander of the Nuhoch squad) started raging in map chat that the event only failed because we did not have enough warriors in Nuhoch lane and therefore could not burst the boss in the first DMG phase... And all those "bad players on the map with their RP builds on" should copy a build from qtfy and install a dps meter, or leave the map/don't go to events like this, etc. ...

 

Still, the toxicity in this does not come from the use of dps meters and meta builds per se. It comes from a certain type of player which you will have in every online game. Tools like dps meters just enable them/give them something to be toxic about...

[Panda.1967]

A major issue I keep seeing with people running DPS meters is that they are completely focused on what the meter says, they don't care about anything else. "The meter says that Tempest is only pulling 8k DPS instead of the 40k benchmark, guess we gotta kick them..." There plenty of valid reasons why that tempest might be pulling only 8k DPS instead of the perfect 40k benchmark. One such reason, heaven forbid they arn't running Fresh Air, but instead are running an Auramancy build and actually keeping those glass cannons alive. People jump to assumptions, this happened before DPS meters, and it still happens with them, it's actually worse now than it was before. The only "good DPS meters" are the ones built into the game, AKA the training golems. They allow you to judge your personal performance, learn rotations to improve your DPS, and give you a general idea of what your build is capable of. Sure they don't tell you how you'll do in actual combat where you have to dodge, cleanse, heal, and actually survive, but they will tell you what you CAN do.

 

DPS meter addons NEVER should have been permitted, they have only breed more toxicity. The "good" people have claimed has come from DPS meters, would have come from the training golems without the presence of DPS meter addons. People would have tested builds and classes against the dummies and debunked the claims of "Warrior is the end all be all of DPS" and "all these classes are worthless" right off the bat. People who were passionate about their class and pissed that they were constantly being denied before would have flocked to the training golems, exactly the same way they flocked to DPS meters. The numbers would have been recorded and posted as proof that their class isn't worthless after all.

 

As for "non meta builds can prove themselves and still get a spot on teams", this doesn't happen nearly as often as people like to claim. More often than not, people are flat denied spots on teams unless they are running meta. This is so prevalent that it has actually been suggested multiple times for non meta players to lie and say they are running the meta build to get on the team, then use that opportunity to prove their build. I'm sorry, but there is ABSOLUTELY a problem, when people have to lie just to be given a chance to prove their build is just as viable as the meta. People have become far too attached to the meta and too reliant on DPS meters. This fact can be seen on the professions forums a lot, people complain about not surviving against certain NPCs or even certain other builds in PvP, and there is a very obvious pattern to all of them. They ALL are 100% glass cannon. If you so much as even suggest that they trade out a trait or utility for something that will help them survive, they curse you out and start insisting that they know how to play the class and that the problem isn't them it's the other classes/players or the content.

 

> @Syktek.7912 said:

> > @Rennie.6750 said:

> > > @Helbjorne.9368 said:

> > > Donkeys will be donkeys regardless of whether or not there's a DPS meter, but I can definitely see both sides of the argument. Personally I think it allows us to hold other people accountable if they're just looking to get carried in PUGs, but there's a good and a bad way to address that.

> >

> > DPS meters also promote selfish and greedy behaviour in runs. People are so obsessed about their numbers that they completely forgo any kind of support and will instead slot the last bit of dps-

>

> Stopped reading right there. DPS aren't required to slot support nor will they ever be. In fact, no one is required to slot support past your healers. They're there for a reason. Most builds bring ample CC that are built into them. I didn't slot extra 'support' before DPS meters were allowed and I don't now. No successful raid guild does it, none of the pugs I joined did it. Quit making crap up.

>

 

Perhaps you should have kept reading. At no point did he say anyone was required to slot support skills past your healers. Everything he said is true though. Sure you CAN slot nothing but DPS, but quite honestly, it is **NOT** optimal. So many people are so obsessed with getting that last extra 1% DPS on their build that they blantantly refuse to even consider taking a support or defensive ability to improve their survival. Believe it or not, that 1% extra DPS is **NOT** equal to let alone greater than the extra 300% survivability that just 1 support skill can give you. Losing out on 1% DPS in favor of better survivability will ALWAYS result in higher average DPS and a higher success rate on runs, that is an absolute fact.

[Faaris.8013]

For me, what you call "meta" here is just how games are played, and I admit I have a hard time understanding the fuss about it here in the community.

 

I remember playing Anno 1602. You could feed your people fish and meat to keep them happy (and alive). You built a fisher hut and made some room and have cattle, and it was a good thing for your little village. At some point, you could build farms and produce grain, build mills, bakeries. It turns out that you could feed more people with your farms than with cattle or fish, at lower cost. So later on, you removed your cattle farms and made room for something else. You only produced grain because for the people and the game's happiness mechanics, it didn't matter what you gave them. And then you figured out that your farms become even more productive/efficient if you place your fields, the mills and the bakeries in a specific pattern, because shorter transportation times = faster supply.

 

If you played with friends and one of them would keep raising cattle or rely on fisher huts and deer hunters to feed their people in late game, you would help them out because, obviously, they didn't understand the game mechanics well. I've never heard of anyone refusing to change to a more efficient play style in Anno 1602 because they "don't like industrial production." or "they prefer to raise cattle and love fish and those huts look so cute", or because planning and building grain farms is too complicated and too much work.

 

I can just imagine this being an Anno forum and people would team up against pirates and NPCs on the hardest mode. We would have players here that complain about elitists and toxicity because they cannot get into groups that require you to build grain farms instead of cattle farms. Simply because you need to be that efficient to beat the pirates and NPCs. People would request to make their islands invisible to team members so they cannot see what kind of farms they built.

 

Sounds ridiculous, right? That is how I see this arguing against meta builds and dps meters here. I know my point of view is not the only valid one, and might not even be the most fun for others, but that's how I roll and I fear there is nothing that could convince me to change in that matter.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @Panda.1967 said:

>One such reason, heaven forbid they arn't running Fresh Air, but instead are running an Auramancy build and actually keeping those glass cannons alive.

 

If that's the reason then they should've communicated that fact before the run even started. You know, so the Druid of the team could change to another build since going with 2 support is overkill on most situations, or heaven forbid, there was another Auramancer already in the team, making the second one a waste of time.

Why is communication so hard? A few simple words in party/squad chat can solve most of these kinds of issues.

[Panda.1967]

> @Faaris.8013 said:

> For me, what you call "meta" here is just how games are played, and I admit I have a hard time understanding the fuss about it here in the community.

>

> I remember playing Anno 1602. You could feed your people fish and meat to keep them happy (and alive). You built a fisher hut and made some room and have cattle, and it was a good thing for your little village. At some point, you could build farms and produce grain, build mills, bakeries. It turns out that you could feed more people with your farms than with cattle or fish, at lower cost. So later on, you removed your cattle farms and made room for something else. You only produced grain because for the people and the game's happiness mechanics, it didn't matter what you gave them. And then you figured out that your farms become even more productive/efficient if you place your fields, the mills and the bakeries in a specific pattern, because shorter transportation times = faster supply.

>

> If you played with friends and one of them would keep raising cattle or rely on fisher huts and deer hunters to feed their people in late game, you would help them out because, obviously, they didn't understand the game mechanics well. I've never heard of anyone refusing to change to a more efficient play style in Anno 1602 because they "don't like industrial production." or "they prefer to raise cattle and love fish and those huts look so cute", or because planning and building grain farms is too complicated and too much work.

>

> I can just imagine this being an Anno forum and people would team up against pirates and NPCs on the hardest mode. We would have players here that complain about elitists and toxicity because they cannot get into groups that require you to build grain farms instead of cattle farms. Simply because you need to be that efficient to beat the pirates and NPCs. People would request to make their islands invisible to team members so they cannot see what kind of farms they built.

>

> Sounds ridiculous, right? That is how I see this arguing against meta builds and dps meters here. I know my point of view is not the only valid one, and might not even be the most fun for others, but that's how I roll and I fear there is nothing that could convince me to change in that matter.

 

There's a difference between what you're describing and the "meta" we see here on GW2... In Anno 1602, the meta was about optimizing. In GW2, however, the meta is largely about maximizing DPS. Maximized DPS is NOT the most optimal. As I said in my previous post, people have become too attached and reliant on the meta. Many of them don't even understand how the meta builds work, and some of the meta builds only truly work in a perfect scenario. Those "perfect scenario" builds are actually the very reason why so many DPS Meter users get so worked up over even a 1 second delay on stupid things like cornering a boss, they are so reliant on that perfection that their build requires that they don't even realize, "maybe this build isn't actually the best thing for this." Additionally a lot of people fail to realize, the benchmark values show the top potential in a perfect scenario, you're never going to get that absolute perfect scenario. There is also a degree of bias found in many benchmark tests for meta across nearly every MMO in existence.

 

For example: (Non GW2) over on WoW, I got into a heated debate on the shaman forums about the potential for Elemental Shamans in endgame content, for several expansions it's been "Enhancement or go home". After going back and forth with people on the forums for a few weeks, one of them gave the remark of "if you don't trust our benchmarks, run a parser yourself and prove us wrong." and then proceeded to link me to a program that automatically runs a rotation defined by the user in a perfect scenario. Well, after studying the program and running it a few times I discovered something. The damage values for the abilities of several classes and specs were NOT accurate at all. An ability that deals 15k damage in game with poor gear would deal 5k on the parser with the best gear. This was a bias from the programmer. A bias that so many people who used the program (and still do today) ignored and place all their trust in the program to give them accurate information. I tried to point this out to them, but needless to say, no one listened.

 

As much as many may not want to believe it, this same type of Bias may very well be present in GW2 meta as well. Especially if the benchmarks are being generated from a parser similar to the one used by the WoW community. Such bias isn't even necessarily intentional or malicious, sometimes it's just an error. In the case of the parser for WoW, I can assuredly say it was malicious, inconsistencies with damage values between the live game and the parser were present on EVERY class/spec that is not considered Meta.

 

All that said, it's fine to trust the meta, so long as you don't do so blindly and as long as you don't try to force it on others. If you want to run meta, that is YOUR prerogative. You have no right to dictate how others play, so don't try to.

[Feanor.2358]

> @Abakk.9176 said:

> > @"Pink Porcupine.5461" said:

> > I wonder what would happen if we made random teams of pro-meter and anti-meter people in this thread.

>

> The anti-meter people will come out either winning or losing from the computer and only care for the fun they had together.

>

> The pro-meter players will either come out cursing eachother (as they always do) because due to player error a full second was wasted and lost to eternity OR they are still at the entrance kicking everybody after scanning for optimal build or profession.

>

 

Nice exaggeration. Let me answer in the same manner - by the time the pro-meter > @Rennie.6750 said:

> > @Helbjorne.9368 said:

> > Donkeys will be donkeys regardless of whether or not there's a DPS meter, but I can definitely see both sides of the argument. Personally I think it allows us to hold other people accountable if they're just looking to get carried in PUGs, but there's a good and a bad way to address that.

>

> DPS meters also promote selfish and greedy behaviour in runs. People are so obsessed about their numbers that they completely forgo any kind of support and will instead slot the last bit of dps they can when they could run some utilities that would make the run a bit longer but much easier and safer. In the same vein, if some dude provides party buffs or manages aggro properly and does some good CC I don't see why he should be kicked, yet, with the damage meter mentality, he will.

>

> The problem with dps meters is that it's a tool you should use to evaluate your own performance in a given situation, but you rarely have all the information at hand to evaluate others. You don't know what quality of gear they're running, you don't know which aspect of gameplay they prioritize, and it certainly doesn't take into account how well they're dealing with mechanics. In any other game I've played people either straight out ignored the built-in damage board because roles were so diverse it was irrelevant or were only interested in self-improvement, I'm really surprised that here it's used to play the blame game and complain about others.

 

You know, that's the kind of selfish behaviour which is actually beneficial for the group when employed by the dps classes in the group. You really *should* bother yourself as little as possible with other stuff when you're a dps. That's what really separates good groups from average ones IMO. Supporting the dps doesn't only mean giving them buffs, it also means taking care of mechanics for them, making sure they can focus on their task with as little interruptions as possible. Every time they stop their rotation to handle a mechanic, or simply dodge an attack, your group loses more dps than if another player did it for them. Take care of as much as possible for your dps and you'll find your runs magically became much smoother, faster and safer.

[Feanor.2358]

> @Panda.1967 said:

> Perhaps you should have kept reading. At no point did he say anyone was required to slot support skills past your healers. Everything he said is true though. Sure you CAN slot nothing but DPS, but quite honestly, it is **NOT** optimal. So many people are so obsessed with getting that last extra 1% DPS on their build that they blantantly refuse to even consider taking a support or defensive ability to improve their survival. Believe it or not, that 1% extra DPS is **NOT** equal to let alone greater than the extra 300% survivability that just 1 support skill can give you. Losing out on 1% DPS in favor of better survivability will ALWAYS result in higher average DPS and a higher success rate on runs, that is an absolute fact.

 

Except it really is greater and it really is optimal. Because that "300% more survivability" skill really amounts to zero. You have supports which are tasked with keeping you alive. Trust them to do their jobs and don't do yours poorly under the assumption they'll be doing theirs poorly. And (I can't stress this enough) by doing your job well, you make their jobs easier, too. Higher dps = less time fighting = less damage taken and less mechanics thrown in your face.

[Abakk.9176]

> @Feanor.2358 said:

> Nice exaggeration.

 

Yes, an exaggeration. That is exactly what it is meant to be. To mirror the exaggerated way some people turn their computergame into their personal Olympics and cut down everyone that don't live up to their exaggerated standards and expectations.

 

People that want to play that way are welcome to it for all i care, but not in a way that they walk all over other people in the process.

 

They should create a Guild and gather all others that enjoy that way of playing and keep out of the way of the general crowd. Unfortunately people can't be trusted with such responsibility and therefore addons like dps-meters should be banned from MMO's.

 

I make sure i don't get in the way of achievers with my damaged brain. Why don't they do the same with their Personal Olympics?

 

 

 

 

 

[sigur.9453]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> Strawman argument. I was talking about PVE instanced end game, dungeons, boss fights, fractals - eveything appart from raids in fact. The vast majority of players happily farm fractals including T4 and have been doing so for many years quite happily. As i said the need for Meta by raiders outwith raids has nothing to do with viability and everything to do with their mindset, because the fact is the vast majority prove otherwise.

 

some people don´t want to play with you,get over it.

you still have the vast majority to play with.

[sigur.9453]

> @Dante.1763 said:

 

> When it comes to raids, i still feel like they are pretty inaccessible. I asked for help on the forums and nobody showed up. Spending 3 hours having a LFG message up sucked hard too. I can see why people have issues with being locked out of raids, very few people are willing to take someone new into them, and i really do have to agree that it shouldnt be that way in this game.

 

You need to look active for groups, commies rarly look in the "player looking for grp" section.

Ask in Mapchat (aerodrome) for Trainingsgroups, there are a bunch of guilds out there.

 

But DONT try to join a exp killrun grp with no knowlege over the boss you wan´t to do.

[Khar.9463]

Play with people who want to play with you. If you're not pulling acceptable dps for your group and they don't want to play with you, why should they? Join a more casual group that doesn't care about dps, just like you don't.

[Coconut.7082]

Everything in this post is so ironic, you people are trying to portray the "dps-meter-supporters" as the bad guys, and yet all I see from the "dps-meter-opposers" here is:

* Name calling

* Generalization of a whole group of people

* Attempts to separate a whole group from the rest of the game

* Restriction

* Support of lies and deception

* Selfishness

* Blind hate, false claims, accusations and exaggerations

 

If that's the case, I'd rather stay part of the "Toxic Elitists" anytime, over the so called "Nice ,friendly and supportive casuals".

Have fun with your life bois, but remember: Envy won't get you very far. ;)

[Faaris.8013]

> @Feanor.2358 said:

 

> You know, that's the kind of selfish behaviour which is actually beneficial for the group when employed by the dps classes in the group. You really *should* bother yourself as little as possible with other stuff when you're a dps. That's what really separates good groups from average ones IMO. Supporting the dps doesn't only mean giving them buffs, it also means taking care of mechanics for them, making sure they can focus on their task with as little interruptions as possible. Every time they stop their rotation to handle a mechanic, or simply dodge an attack, your group loses more dps than if another player did it for them. Take care of as much as possible for your dps and you'll find your runs magically became much smoother, faster and safer.

 

This is so true. I mainly play thief and it took me some time to realize that it's not my job to steal boons, provide fury, swiftness or might or vigor to my allies with the Trickery line. My job is to deal damage and cc, and it's best for the whole group to focus on that and set the traits accordingly. It's also not my job to resurrect people, I don't have anything protecting me in that time, and get downed most of the time trying. Nowadays, I pull the boss away to give others room for resurrections. It's not selfish, it's the thief's part in the group.

[Byakhee.8652]

There is one way that this kind of content would mean its not all DPS meters:

 

If a cost was brought in to repair armour in these locations. This means if you are going DPS / Wipe / Restart run there is another cost to it.

The cost doesn't have to be coins, there are multiple resources in the game, who knows maybe this place wants bloodstone bricks per use of the armour repair...