Lootboxes and recovering from addiction

[VaaCrow.3076]

> @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > @Swagger.1459 said:

> > > @"Manasa Devi.7958" said:

> > > I don't mean to spam, but I cross-posted this in the 2 topics that are actually about the gambling.

> > >

> > > http://www.pegi.info/en/index/id/511

> > >

> > > I petitioned them to add the "Games that encourage or teach gambling" to the PEGI rating. Because it does.

> >

> > On your mission, you obviously are ignoring the ESRB rating this game already has...

> >

> > “TEEN

> > Content is generally suitable for ages 13 and up. May contain violence, suggestive themes, crude humor, minimal blood, simulated gambling and/or infrequent use of strong language.”

>

> Simulated gambling would be GTA San Andreas minigames. This is real gambling.

 

this is not gambling, you pay for a box and get a unique mount skin each time, the rng is not gambling, as you will always receive a unique skin. the fact that you can't pick 1 is just a smart business addition to the box for anet. You lose nothing when you get a box, get over yourself. I don't support this lootbox idea, however if it keeps anet's coffers full i don't mind as it means more game to play!

[Manasa Devi.7958]

It dioe> @VaaCrow.3076 said:

> > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > @Swagger.1459 said:

> > > > @"Manasa Devi.7958" said:

> > > > I don't mean to spam, but I cross-posted this in the 2 topics that are actually about the gambling.

> > > >

> > > > http://www.pegi.info/en/index/id/511

> > > >

> > > > I petitioned them to add the "Games that encourage or teach gambling" to the PEGI rating. Because it does.

> > >

> > > On your mission, you obviously are ignoring the ESRB rating this game already has...

> > >

> > > “TEEN

> > > Content is generally suitable for ages 13 and up. May contain violence, suggestive themes, crude humor, minimal blood, simulated gambling and/or infrequent use of strong language.”

> >

> > Simulated gambling would be GTA San Andreas minigames. This is real gambling.

>

> this is not gambling, you pay for a box and get a unique mount skin each time, the rng is not gambling, as you will always receive a unique skin. the fact that you can't pick 1 is just a smart business addition to the box for anet. You lose nothing when you get a box, get over yourself. I don't support this lootbox idea, however if it keeps anet's coffers full i don't mind as it means more game to play!

 

It doesn't matter if there's actual gambling as per the legal term going on. ESRB apparently distinguishes "simulated gambling" as a ratings determinator. PEGI uses "Games that encourage or teach gambling". The criterion for both organisations is met.

[Locce.8405]

> @costepj.5120 said:

> There are many people who enjoy the frisson of opening lootboxes. The challenge for a company like Anet is striking the right balance between entertaining one section of their player base without damaging another. It would be a tough call to exclude all RNG elements from the gemstore to ensure no one with a gambling problem is unduly tempted. Akin to banning alcohol sales to remove temptation from alcoholics.

I would say the right balance is in keeping the RNG stuff as much as possible in the game itself, meaning you gamble with your ingame money or effort and get a chance to spin a wheel or open a random chest or whatnot. If you are already conditioned to enjoy paying your real money for the pleasure you are on the best way to gambling addiction. That does not even include something that can honestly be called a game to be enjoyed, like Blackjack or Poker. It is just "pay money, roll dice".

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @VaaCrow.3076 said:

> > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > @Swagger.1459 said:

> > > > @"Manasa Devi.7958" said:

> > > > I don't mean to spam, but I cross-posted this in the 2 topics that are actually about the gambling.

> > > >

> > > > http://www.pegi.info/en/index/id/511

> > > >

> > > > I petitioned them to add the "Games that encourage or teach gambling" to the PEGI rating. Because it does.

> > >

> > > On your mission, you obviously are ignoring the ESRB rating this game already has...

> > >

> > > “TEEN

> > > Content is generally suitable for ages 13 and up. May contain violence, suggestive themes, crude humor, minimal blood, simulated gambling and/or infrequent use of strong language.”

> >

> > Simulated gambling would be GTA San Andreas minigames. This is real gambling.

>

> this is not gambling, you pay for a box and get a unique mount skin each time, the rng is not gambling, as you will always receive a unique skin. the fact that you can't pick 1 is just a smart business addition to the box for anet. You lose nothing when you get a box, get over yourself. I don't support this lootbox idea, however if it keeps anet's coffers full i don't mind as it means more game to play!

 

This is how industry is currently exploiting obvious hole in gambling laws.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @CharterforGw.3149 said:

> > @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > > @Swagger.1459 said:

> > > > @"Manasa Devi.7958" said:

> > > > I don't mean to spam, but I cross-posted this in the 2 topics that are actually about the gambling.

> > > >

> > > > http://www.pegi.info/en/index/id/511

> > > >

> > > > I petitioned them to add the "Games that encourage or teach gambling" to the PEGI rating. Because it does.

> > >

> > > On your mission, you obviously are ignoring the ESRB rating this game already has...

> > >

> > > “TEEN

> > > Content is generally suitable for ages 13 and up. May contain violence, suggestive themes, crude humor, minimal blood, simulated gambling and/or infrequent use of strong language.”

> >

> > That would cover the Ecto gambling in the casinos, but would not cover the mount skins, because the mount skins are not *simulated* gambling, they are *actual* gambling, which would raise the rating to "Adult."

>

> the mount gambling already existed in the form of black lion chest gambling (which is worse since you can get duplicate items)

 

Which would be fair to argue. Perhaps they should have been held to account for this years ago. Being able to get away with something for years does not mean that new examples of it are made valid.

 

 

[Matick.4132]

Sorry to disagree, but this is exactly the fact: it is real gambling, hence locking into gambling-addiction and programming children to do so!

 

Please read the KOTAKU article on this. I've posted the link in the mount-thread, but here it's also very appropriate because it can help you OP (Canakun.8031) to deal with it and maybe find a way to take action.

The point of gambling is: you'll always get something. Weather it's that what you want or an incentive to go on with gambling. _It is THE ESSENCE of gambling to begin with_.

That's why we humans do it, we like it and to some degree it's fun.

 

But why this RNG/Loot-Box thing is an exploit from the money-makers to us gamers, this is detailed out in the KOTAKU article in the link below:

 

https://kotaku.com/loot-boxes-are-designed-to-exploit-us-1819457592

 

**It's planned exploitation and it has to stop!**

[Elyssandariel.2679]

I'm not going to get into the wordplay of definitions and is this gambling or not (it is). I am a psychology major 1 class and an internship away from graduating, specializing in addictions. I will tell you that whether this is "gambling" legally by definition or not, it IS addictive. It is meant to excite your limbic system that exists to reward you for doing things you should do to survive, by flooding you with dopamine to make you temporarily euphoric, because it is a "chance" that you get something that you really want. (I have done 3 projects on internet gaming addiction disorder. Please, believe me on this stuff. People are addicted to all kinds of different aspects of these games because of different activities designed to produce that "rush.")

 

When you do this often enough, your overall dopamine level is dropped down, to accommodate the continual rushes of it, which is why the high gets lower and lower and you have to do more and more of the activity to feel satisfied. Since your dopamine level is now dropped, other things that you used to enjoy are not so enjoyable anymore, and the only thing that makes you feel good, is this activity that produces that dopamine rush. This is a very vicious cycle.

 

To OP and others in their position: I feel for you. These loot boxes are very attractive and tempting. You don't need to have had a gambling disorder to overspend on these things. This is what they are designed for. One fall off the wagon doesn't need to lead to rolling down the hill. you are in the maintenance/relapse part of the addiction cycle. Relapses occasionally will happen. Don't let one setback ruin years of hard work! I am not giving professional advice, but what I would do is talk to someone if you need to, and if necessary, do some sort of contingency management. "If I spend more than x on the gemstore, then I give up this, and this, and this." If you write it out and give it to someone who will help you enforce this, it can be a powerful tool to help prevent relapses. Don't give up, all of you!!

[Ashantara.8731]

> @CharterforGw.3149 said:

> This isn't really gambling, I can see why you feel like it is, since it gives the same feelings of wanting to "try again".

 

Of course it is! Even though it has a monetary limit (since there currently are only that many mount skins), it is nonetheless gambling, because it has an RNG aspect that seduces people to invest more (until they have what they want). The aspect of feeling that tingling mix of excitement and "fear" (of not getting what you consider to be the "jackpot", in connection with the waste of real life money) when you are about to open a container, that is exactly what a gambling addiction is all about. GG, ANet.

 

 

[Torolan.5816]

Sorry to hear about your condition, OP. I never thought of it as something that could actually let people fall back into their old addiction, but it sounds indeed like compulsive behavior. Best of luck to you.

 

And yes, the industry should be ashamed of themselves if they exploit such holes and endanger the health of their customers. It´s not like games did not already have a bad name for violence and internet addiction in general while on the other hand nobody should fool themselves into believing that games make these people violent or ill, it´s society that makes people sick and violent. As the OP describes it a game should be a sanctuary and relief from a sometimes harsh reality full of skritts or circumstances that can make life miserable for you. The outsider addict who could not stand it anymore one day did not choose to be an outsider addict. The supposedly cool kids ultimately made him an addict.

[Matick.4132]

> @Torolan.5816 said:

> Sorry to hear about your condition, OP. I never thought of it as something that could actually let people fall back into their old addiction, but it sounds indeed like compulsive behavior. Best of luck to you.

>

> And yes, the industry should be ashamed of themselves if they exploit such holes and endanger the health of their customers. It´s not like games did not already have a bad name for violence and internet addiction in general while on the other hand nobody should fool themselves into believing that games make these people violent or ill, it´s society that makes people sick and violent. As the OP describes it a game should be a sanctuary and relief from a sometimes harsh reality full of skritts or circumstances that can make life miserable for you. The outsider addict who could not stand it anymore one day did not choose to be an outsider addict. The supposedly cool kids ultimately made him an addict.

 

_Wow! That is by far one of THE most sensitive comments, filled with real empathy and compassion (which is RARE loot these days on the interweb), that I've read in those times we're in. Thank you, that's the spirit we as gamers (and humans IRL) need!_ :)

[pah.4931]

This is gambling as much as any Trading Card Game is gambling. (and actually less so because you can't get dupe mount skins) ... Just tell yourself that it's $120 for every mount skin (or whatever it is) and then you'll see why this isn't exactly gambling.

[LittleV.7805]

Hey OP I just wanted to tell you that you're not alone, I just did exactly the same and I feel awful for it. I didn't even get the skin I wanted.

Lately I feel like GW2 has become a trap for people struggling with addiction I may actually have to stop playing between content patches altogether. I actually play with a post-it note over the top left icons so I don't click on gemstore I also have it unbound so if I need to sell my items I physically walk to a black lion vendor instead of opening the gem store, I had been doing pretty well but I just spent a ton of money on 6 of these and my in game gold and I just feel so awful.

All that this patch has made me feel is crappy I got 1 nice looking skin then just felt hollow afterwards..a lot of games function almost entirely on a lootbox system now and its wrong on so many levels. Its hard not to blame myself for being weak.

 

Edit : I am going to be taking a break from this game, I've exhausted what I want from PoF and if the only decent rewards are going to be provided through RNG loot boxes then this game will not be good for my overall mental health. Hope everyone else keeps on enjoying the game and I might see you next time there's a new map to explore.

[Torolan.5816]

> @pah.4931 said:

> This is gambling as much as any Trading Card Game is gambling. (and actually less so because you can't get dupe mount skins) ... Just tell yourself that it's $120 for every mount skin (or whatever it is) and then you'll see why this isn't exactly gambling.

 

To be honest, i have no idea in which sense this is gambling. Whether it is gambling or not, it made people fall back into their old habits of impulsively buying stuff they should not have bought.

As you mention card games, I bought way to many Magic and Lot5R boosters in my youth, probably enough to blew out the large majority of the money I earned in my apprenticeship, I know how it burns in your guts until you can get your fix. One lucky day I more or less lost interest on my own in both and sold my cards for a fraction of their real worth just to get rid of them.

 

I had to suffer through some rough periods in life too and had several family members with much stronger addictions than I had myself, so I know how it is to feel like irresponsible trash yourself while being forced to watch the suffering caused by alcoholism and post traumatic dosorder.

[Gerrand.3085]

I agree. This is a system which is designed to exploit people who have addictive gambling habits and its been instantiated as the only way to obtain the main fashion skins of the expansion. If you still playing PoF its because you have some appreciation of the mount system. If you wish to enhance the mount system then the only way to engage is through gambling.

 

Big woop that you guaranteed to get some item in return for your gamble. Most of these returned items have no value to the person doing the gambling and the upper cost of guaranteeing the item you desire is above what many people will be able to afford - and far above what people have ever been expected to cough up in this game.

 

For instance, lets say a casino decided to reward a baseball card with every gamble taken. Is every function at the casino no longer a gamble because you guaranteed to get something back?

[starlinvf.1358]

> @costepj.5120 said:

> There are many people who enjoy the frisson of opening lootboxes. The challenge for a company like Anet is striking the right balance between entertaining one section of their player base without damaging another. It would be a tough call to exclude all RNG elements from the gemstore to ensure no one with a gambling problem is unduly tempted. Akin to banning alcohol sales to remove temptation from alcoholics.

 

It wouldn't be tough call, nor would it be difficult to implement. The only reason its not done is because its not nearly as profitable as a randomized system, where the Player's target is outside the mean.

 

The thing is Loot drops (as in the traditional definition) under an RNG system was measured in Time/Effort investment. With the amount of time spent in these games verses the cost of entry (ie the cost of the title or the subscription fee), each attempt had an extremely low cost (infinitesimal fractions of a cent per mob kill). This time/effort value shoots up significantly once you start involving things that have recognizable and significant value to the players..... The Hour spent in a Raid, or 4 Exotics in the Mystic Forge, or the effort to obtain a Champ box (well.. back before SW chest trains).

 

With loot boxes like the BL Chest and the Mount skin tickets, each roll is incredibly expensive on a vector that players DO NOT consider trivial. Using the Gem Exchange as a reference point, it costs 125g to get an Adoption license, and only has a 1 in 4 chance of the "high end skins" that most people are looking for. 125g is roughly the average price of a popular BL skin on the Trading Post, and gives you exactly what you're looking for.

 

There was an unnecessary amount of effort with the Adoption licenses to get people to put in the maximum possible investment, regardless of how much return they wanted to get out of the exchange. Black Lion chests had always just barely skirted around the edge of unsavory, by being pretty clear that the odds are against you for a big return. But the Fallacy with the Adoption license is there being a clear "worst case scenario" and a maximum possible investment, which gives the implication that you'd never have to spend more then $120 to obtain everything you wanted. Its the same fallacy that drove people to buy tons of dyes and cheap skins when Wardrobe Unlock tickets were added to BL chests, with the idea of clearing the board of low value skins in order for the ticket to have higher odds of hitting a rare skin.

But as the number of skins on the board increased (with every new skin set added), the odds of getting a skin you actually "like" steadily decreases over time (instead of increasing like most people believed). If the next set of Mount skins falls within the same table as the existing mount skins, then any unclaimed (presumably unwanted) skins up to that point are now direct competition to the new set of skins. Whats more likely to happen is what they did with Mini Eggs in the Gem store, where each skin set is part of a series, allowing them to maintain the sense that there is a maximum investment cap, and coax as many players as possible into the max cap to avoid uncertainty.

[Swagger.1459]

I love how some of you invoke “gambling” to the argument... A skin is guaranteed to drop, and no duplicates... There is zero chance of loss here. Anet also allows players to obtain these skins for free, by allowing players to exchange gold for gems...

 

This game has $0 in monthly fees, and graciously allows players to buy anything from the gemstore for free, so please take the morality and “gambling” complaints to another game that actually milks players... These vanity skin are optional too, and do not magically give a player an advantage over another player.

[particlepinata.9865]

> @CharterforGw.3149 said:

> This isn't really gambling, I can see why you feel like it is, since it gives the same feelings of wanting to "try again".

> why this isn't gambling you may wonder. You always get something, and it is never something you had before.

 

Its certainly is gambling with real money , and should not be in a Pegi 12 AA title recomended to kids. The black lion chests are also gambling btw. And you forgot to mention in the begining (2012, 2013 maybe) there where a ton of black lion keys to be aquired by just playing the game, until a massive nerf came in to facilitate the cashshop.

 

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @Swagger.1459 said:

> I love how some of you invoke “gambling” to the argument... A skin is guaranteed to drop, and no duplicates... There is zero chance of loss here. Anet also allows players to obtain these skins for free, by allowing players to exchange gold for gems...

>

> This game has $0 in monthly fees, and graciously allows players to buy anything from the gemstore for free, so please take the morality and “gambling” complaints to another game that actually milks players... These vanity skin are optional too, and do not magically give a player an advantage over another player.

 

Other player already posted definition of gambling today and current mount lootbox fullfil its description.

[Aplethoraof.2643]

Issues like this being big hits in the GW2 community genuinely make me think that people have been playing GW2 for so long that they have forgotten what other MMO loot boxes look like. This one is pretty fair, still more fair than Black Lion Chests even. And it has 0% impact on the play-ability of the game at that. Its hard to feel like this is a travesty when it makes no difference when it comes to balance, gameplay, etc.

 

I do appreciate that people like playing dolly dress up (fashion wars!). I know I do. And compared to the previous outfit/glider skin model, I can see it as irritating. Heck, it'll cause me not to buy them as a result, where I previously might. That is a mistake on anet's part in my opinion.

 

However, comparing it to actual lootbox gambling or even real gambling is silly at best. It just seems like you want to collect sympathy tokens or some-such. Blowing an issue out of proportion just makes you seem disingenuous.

 

If you want it to be actual lootbox gambling, we can fix that: Make it so you can get skins you already have from it. Otherwise, its essentially an advent calendar.

 

Since we all know anet won't go back on this decision, I do have two suggestions:

1) Don't do this again.

2) Make the skins sell-able on the trading post.

[PookieDaWombat.6209]

> @CharterforGw.3149 said:

> Okay, > @"Ayumi Spender.1082" said:

> > > @CharterforGw.3149 said:

> > > This isn't really gambling, I can see why you feel like it is, since it gives the same feelings of wanting to "try again".

> > > why this isn't gambling you may wonder. You always get something, and it is never something you had before.

> > >

> > > gambling has a change of getting you nothing, and you only lose.

> > > that doesn't however make this way of "lootboxes" a nice thing, since there is still an aspect of rng, I don't like lootboxes myself, but I condone them aslong as they are purely cosmetic items that don't impact the games of other people. A good example is the system in the new Starwars battlefront 2 (original battlefront 2 is still much better ;) ) where lootboxes increase your powerlevel without playing the game itself.

> > >

> > > little side note: it has existed since the start of the game in the form of Black lion chests

> >

> > My english is as good as a Norn giving up alcohol... but I don't think you know what the word "gamble" or "gambling" means.

> > You use 400 gems in the gamble of getting what you want.

> > I don't see how you don't get this at all. It's not hard to understand.

> > Even those little stupid vending machine things you see in the supermarket that you put 25 cents in (I think it went up to 50 later on and I think even 75 now? I don't know I'M NOT A CHILD NO MORE...... on the outside at least...), is a gambling mechanism. You see a prize/toy and you put the quarter in hoping you get one of the things you want.

> > 9 out of 10 you don't and you would ask your parents for another quarter to try. It's gambling.

> > It doesn't matter if after you get it, you won't get doubles. Because you know what? Those rare/uncommon account bound one time only things in the black lion chests? If you got it already you won't get it a 2nd time either. That's a kitten gamble.

> >

> > Even going, "You know what? There's a test tomorrow and I never studied and I still won't study. I hope I do well." Is gambling on the chance on passing or failing.

> > "The game of chance" is a gamble. Plain and simple.

>

> It does fit the definition of gambling indeed (my mistake of getting the definition wrong).

> However, in this case with the mounts you can't compare it to "casino gambling" (where you can get nothing).

> If you keep spending money on the mounts you will get all of them, you will never get nothing, you will never get the same mount.

 

OK, you're still missing the point. Let's extrapolate this a bit. Let's look at a Casino. I can promise you that if I had enough funds and rolled up to a high roller section in a casino and dropped enough money down on Baccarat that not only will I leave with a profit, but I will probably get comped on things as well. Throw enough money at a thing and you will come out "ahead". Its still gambling. Its still money out and maybe something in return. Some people might only have a few dollars to spend, or maybe not. The problem here is when someone has a compulsion to gamble AND possibly not the funds to be spending on such things are presented with this kind of lootbox nonsense, they might end up spending way more money than they should in the hopes of getting the skin they want. And if they don't, your basic answer is "well you got something". No actually, they got nothing. These digital items are literally nothing. money in, nothing out. Or, they can (for a week) spend way more than they initially wanted for maybe one or two of those skins, but thats the only way to guarantee they are going to get the thing they most wanted.

 

Its an insidious practice that preys on addictive personalities and as i mentioned elsewhere, there is a huge overlap in people that have addiction issues and people who play MMOs. Taking the stance of "well you got something you didn't have before" is no different than telling a gambler at a casino who might now be out a paycheck "well you have fun playing those games though, right?"

[Dredg.4890]

Saying that loot boxes/mount skin RNG isn't gambling is like saying a slot machine is fair because it always spits out a penny.

[Arzurag.7506]

The term "gambling" is thrown off pretty quickly these days.

[inubasiri.8745]

> @Swagger.1459 said:

> I love how some of you invoke “gambling” to the argument... A skin is guaranteed to drop, and no duplicates... There is zero chance of loss here. Anet also allows players to obtain these skins for free, by allowing players to exchange gold for gems...

>

> This game has $0 in monthly fees, and graciously allows players to buy anything from the gemstore for free, so please take the morality and “gambling” complaints to another game that actually milks players... These vanity skin are optional too, and do not magically give a player an advantage over another player.

 

Error. Gold has an objective value in real money. $100 = 8000 gems = 1695 gold.

[PookieDaWombat.6209]

> @Arzurag.7506 said:

> The term "gambling" is thrown off pretty quickly these days.

 

So you and say "friend b" both want, lets call it "Shiny Mount Q". Now, Shiny Mount Q is one of 30 that might come out of a box. Each opening of the box costs 400 gems. You open 3 boxes before Shiny Mount Q comes up. YAY! 1200 gems later and you have the mount. Friend b however opens 10 boxes and no Shiny Mount Q. 4000 gems later, and still not what they wanted.

 

Now, lets change these variables slightly.

Both you and friend b are at a casino playing the 5 dollar slots and want to win 1000 dollars. You play 20 pulls (100 dollars later) and get 1000 dollars on that last pull. YAY. Friend b pulls 70 times and doesn't win, but now they are out 350 dollars without the reward they wanted.

 

In both cases friend b can continue to try their chances, and sure there is a finite amount of boxes to open before they possibly get the same thing in the first case BUT, it is still a gamble.

 

TL;DR: the term "gambling" isn't just being thrown around here as this loot box nonsense is literally gambling.

[Manasa Devi.7958]

> @Arzurag.7506 said:

> The term "gambling" is thrown off pretty quickly these days.

 

Perhaps that's because the practice has become so pervasive.